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[Dave of Canada]

DA:O / 2 spoilers ahead.

One of my biggest problems with the protagonists from (recent) BioWare games is the lack of proactivity, you're told to do something and you walk around and do it. Hawke mostly stumbles around, somehow finds himself/herself involved in everything and magically becomes the Champion.

Hawke's not a god-among-mortals characters, thankfully, due to the tragedies which they suffer but allowing the player to have some influence in the events which surround their character's lives would be nice.

Allow the protagonist to suffer for everything they do, integrate tragedy to the choices and allow the player to become the troubled hero or the absolute monster. I'd love to see the protagonist become similar to Arl Howe / Loghain, commiting atrocities for their own gain (Howe) or for the greater good (Loghain).

One of my favorite playthroughs in Origins was betraying the Dalish to the wolves, sending the mages off to Orlais, betraying Alistair, claiming the throne for myself, kill Connor, leaving Bhelen with the anvil, poisoning the ashes and killing Leliana / Wynne, telling Morrigan to screw off and sacrifice Loghain. I did "evil" actions for personal gain, greater good and ended up being well loved by the people despite being a monster and being hated by my friends. 

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 mai 2012 - 01:33 .

[Vormaerin]

Dave of Canada wrote...

One of my favorite playthroughs in Origins was betraying the Dalish to the wolves, sending the mages off to Orlais, betraying Alistair, claiming the throne for myself, kill Connor, leaving Bhelen with the anvil, poisoning the ashes and killing Leliana / Wynne, telling Morrigan to screw off and sacrifice Loghain. I did "evil" actions for personal gain, greater good and ended up being well loved by the people despite being a monster and being hated by my friends. 

My only problem with that is that is pretty rare that the games accurately react to that kind of behavior.   Its certainly possible for complete monsters to become heroes.   But its generally way too easy in computer games.

Btw, telling Morrigan to screw off and letting Loghain redeem himself is the best goody goody option.   Its not an evil one.  Sorry.

[AkiKishi]

Vormaerin wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

One of my favorite playthroughs in Origins was betraying the Dalish to the wolves, sending the mages off to Orlais, betraying Alistair, claiming the throne for myself, kill Connor, leaving Bhelen with the anvil, poisoning the ashes and killing Leliana / Wynne, telling Morrigan to screw off and sacrifice Loghain. I did "evil" actions for personal gain, greater good and ended up being well loved by the people despite being a monster and being hated by my friends. 

My only problem with that is that is pretty rare that the games accurately react to that kind of behavior.   Its certainly possible for complete monsters to become heroes.   But its generally way too easy in computer games.

Btw, telling Morrigan to screw off and letting Loghain redeem himself is the best goody goody option.   Its not an evil one.  Sorry.

Depends on your motivation , which is something the game does not track. It only knows you did something, not why you did it.

[Vormaerin]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Depends on your motivation , which is something the game does not track. It only knows you did something, not why you did it.

Not really.  If you think you are doing harm to anyone (except the highly deserving coward Alistair) by letting Loghain do the sacrifice, you are just misunderstanding the man's character.

If you want to punish him, you either execute him or you make him live out his days as a Warden and a traitor.

[AkiKishi]

Vormaerin wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
Depends on your motivation , which is something the game does not track. It only knows you did something, not why you did it.

Not really.  If you think you are doing harm to anyone (except the highly deserving coward Alistair) by letting Loghain do the sacrifice, you are just misunderstanding the man's character.

If you want to punish him, you either execute him or you make him live out his days as a Warden and a traitor.

Sacrficing him to redeem his honour and using him to get the throne are two very different motivations.

[Dave of Canada]

Sacrifice Loghain because killing yourself would remove all the work you've put to achieving the throne, no Dark Ritual because you don't want a bastard to possibly pose a claim to the throne. It's all about the throne, man!

[Uccio]

Vormaerin wrote...

What I mean by it is that the character is treated like some special person for no reason to do with that person, but with crappy externalities.   Everyone treats the Warden as someone special for no reason.  Its "You are the chosen one" from Lothering on for no reason at all.  Even if you are just an 18 yr old elf girl from the ghetto who is wanted for murder.  

Allright, so you mean the Harry Potter Effect. I hated that movie (and character) from the start because everyone else seemed to know Harry (except himself) and were in awe of him when he came to room. That was a character who´s only requirement was to be present so things would go as said.

I however don´t see that Hawke or Warden fit into that description. Even Warden because he was only a member of know savior organization, not himself but what he represented and his organization had the reputation of saving the world from Blight. Which they had done several times. Thefore people generally (justifiedly) thought Wardens were saviors. Wynne kept referring him as the chosen one but I took it as a character trate, Wynne had this holier than thou attitude anyway.

[Vormaerin]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sacrficing him to redeem his honour and using him to get the throne are two very different motivations.

Sure, but its not evil. You are implicitly (or explicitly) making that deal with Anora.   "Let my father redeem himself and not die a traitor and I'll marry you."  Loghain is all in favor of it, too.   No one is getting screwed over here.

[Vormaerin]

Ukki wrote...
Even Warden because he was only a member of know savior organization, not himself but what he represented and his organization had the reputation of saving the world from Blight. Which they had done several times. Thefore people generally (justifiedly) thought Wardens were saviors. Wynne kept referring him as the chosen one but I took it as a character trate, Wynne had this holier than thou attitude anyway.

My problem is that the Warden is an uberhero mysteriously and for no reason except being a warden, but that same Gray Warden savior aura doesn't seem to cover Alistair or Riordan.  No one asks their opinion at the Landsmeet.   No, they ask my 19 yr old elf girl.  Loghain is totatlly impressed with the Warden and completely dismissive of Alistair.   Even though Alistair is also a warden, is older and more experienced, has been involved in everything the Warden has done, and..oh yeah.. happens to be a royal pretender rather than a criminal from the ghetto.

[AkiKishi]

Ukki wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

What I mean by it is that the character is treated like some special person for no reason to do with that person, but with crappy externalities.   Everyone treats the Warden as someone special for no reason.  Its "You are the chosen one" from Lothering on for no reason at all.  Even if you are just an 18 yr old elf girl from the ghetto who is wanted for murder.  

Allright, so you mean the Harry Potter Effect. I hated that movie (and character) from the start because everyone else seemed to know Harry (except himself) and were in awe of him when he came to room. That was a character who´s only requirement was to be present so things would go as said.

I however don´t see that Hawke or Warden fit into that description. Even Warden because he was only a member of know savior organization, not himself but what he represented and his organization had the reputation of saving the world from Blight. Which they had done several times. Thefore people generally (justifiedly) thought Wardens were saviors. Wynne kept referring him as the chosen one but I took it as a character trate, Wynne had this holier than thou attitude anyway.

Being a Warden is a bit like carrying a badge. People who would not give you the time of day otherwise will defer to your judgement. The power comes from what you are and what you represent, not who you are.

Hawke is just some shmo caught up in events that he has no control over. All the key stuff is done by other people Hawke is just along for the ride.

[Cantina]

Vormaerin wrote...
I think you are both misunderstanding the phrase.  No one is accusing them of being the equivalent of Thor walking amongst the mundanes of Manhattan.

What I mean by it is that the character is treated like some special person for no reason to do with that person, but with crappy externalities.   Everyone treats the Warden as someone special for no reason.  Its "You are the chosen one" from Lothering on for no reason at all.  Even if you are just an 18 yr old elf girl from the ghetto who is wanted for murder.  

No one knows that only Grey Wardens can kill Archdemons.  That's a state secret.  No one knows about the blood drinking ritual. Its so secret they murder innocent people to keep the information from others.   And, even more importantly, no one takes Alistair or Riordan seriously and they are both far senior to the PC.

And, on top of that, you are given ludicrous options.   Appoint the dwarf king!  Decide the ruler of one of the most violently oligarchic cultures in the world (Ferelden).  Take command of armies even though you've barely even seen one, much less ever did anything effective with one.  Why?  Because everyone knows that 19 yr old elf girls make the best generals.

Bah.  Give me a character who is respected for some reason other than the clothes they happen to wear.   The DA2 story didn't work out as well as it could have, but at least Hawke is treated like a normal person.

The Warden is considered special due to the circumstances happening in Ferelden. You have to recall Alistair and your Warden were there when the king was betrayed. They both know the truth about what happened. Morigan asks Alistar why he is not in charge but defers to a new recruit. His reply is that he would make a terrible leader and prefers to follow. Riordan takes charge during the “Final Battle” and offers to slay the Archdemon because he is the senior Warden. The Warden(s) are the only ones that can stop The Blight and since there are only two in all of Fereldan; people are relying on them heavily to stop it. When a Blight is happening, the Wardens do anything they can to stop it. People outside of the Wardens may not know only a Warden can kill the Archdemon but they do not need to when they know when a Blight happens only the Wardens can stop it as they did so in previous Blights.

As for the appointing a new dwarf king, you are given permission by the Paragon to do so with crown in hand. Its either appoint a new king with temporary power the Paragon has bestowed upon you or not. Choosing not to appoint the new king for Orzamar means, you will not get your troops and the conflict of who will rule continues.

Since your character not only survives Ostagar and manages to gather an army to replace the one that was lost, I would say they deserve a lot of respect. That is quite a feat to gather an army considering all that is happening in Fereldan.

Once you become a Warden, your life is changed and your back round no longer matters. It may be brought up from time to time through conversations but people are not going to go “You were a poor elf from the Ghetto, you should go back there.” Does not matter who or what you were, you’re a Warden now and stopping the Blight to save thousands is far more important than people not trusting you because you use to eat rats to survive.

Modifié par Cantina, 12 mai 2012 - 07:18 .

[Ghidorah14]

Lets not forget that Grey Wardens command at least a certain amount of respect.

A lot of folks treat you "special" because you introduce yourself as a Warden, rather than just some bum in a metal suit. And despite the fact that Loghain placed a bounty on the heads of the Wardens, there are still characters who respect the Wardens enough to ignore it.

Hell, take the Dalish for example. When that dalish girl tries to stop you from entering, it's the claim of being a Warden that catches her attention.

So yes, I would say being a Grey Warden isexcuse enough to get caught up in such major affairs as helping the next dwarven king.

A ferelden refugee? Not so much.

Modifié par Ghidorah14, 12 mai 2012 - 07:59 .

[Dave of Canada]

My problem with the Warden bounty is that everybody pretty much ignores it, the highly respected and loved Teryn Loghain places a bounty on the newly-returned Wardens and everybody instantly thinks Loghain is lying?

[Vormaerin]

Cantina wrote...


The Warden is considered special due to the circumstances happening in Ferelden.

I am well aware of the excuse used.  I feel it is inadequate and that it contributes to the colorlessness of the warden as a character.  It is also applied inconsistently.

No one treats Riordan as special except the two of you.   More importantly, everyone defers to you instead of Alistair.  No matter how spineless and retiring Alistair is, that is just nonsense.  The story might work if you are playing the Cousland origin, but it utterly fails if you are playing anything else.   Especially if you are playing the mage or elvish origins.

People don't just ignore class, race, and criminal nature at the drop of a hat, especially when they have a clear alternative.  Not to mention that the truth about the Wardens being necessary is a super secret "we will murder you for knowing it" secret, so its just legends about an Order that was outlawed (with reason) until very recently.  Not to mention the official story being that the Wardens are the ones who betrayed the King.

I understand why they just papered over the origins and pretended everything was nicey-nice.  Most players don't want to be treated like the crap that their character is actually considered and it would also involve quite a bit of additional resources to tailor the story to the origins.   But the result is you have yet another "prophecy noob" story, where someone is elevated to uberness through no fault or merit of their own.

That's why I much prefer the story attempted in Dragon Age 2.  Its why I prefer games with a more fixed protagonist.  I want the world tailored to my actual character.   What's the point of playing a half orc or a DA city elf or gypsy or whatever, if everyone treats you like lordling?

I know a lot of people want to play games where they create any sort of character, but I find that makes the character bland and colorless because the world treats you that way.  Yeah, I can fanfic the game into sense, but I write my own fiction already.  I don't need or want a game to be the framework for that.

[Cantina]

Vormaerin wrote...

Cantina wrote...


The Warden is considered special due to the circumstances happening in Ferelden.

I am well aware of the excuse used.  I feel it is inadequate and that it contributes to the colorlessness of the warden as a character.  It is also applied inconsistently.

No one treats Riordan as special except the two of you.   More importantly, everyone defers to you instead of Alistair.  No matter how spineless and retiring Alistair is, that is just nonsense.  The story might work if you are playing the Cousland origin, but it utterly fails if you are playing anything else.   Especially if you are playing the mage or elvish origins.

For starters Riordan was captured and imprisoned, it’s hard to give the guy special attention when he is locked in a cell much less not knowing there is a third Grey Warden who came to Ferelden to see what was going on. What do you expect to happen? Riordan joins your group of companions and takes credit for all the work you have accomplished up to that moment?

Riordan does gain a certain amount of respect. Arl Emon welcomes him into his castle in Denerium, he also is standing by the Arl’s side in Redcliff's castle. Arl Emon even listens to Riordan when he tells what he learned of the Darkspawn’s plans. I do not what you expect them to do for Riordan. Hold off the Blight and throw a parade in his honor?!

I give up though, seems no matter how much information is thrown out there to counteract these silly accusations it will never end. Considering the story Origins had and the story Dragon Age 2 sounds like an argument about Dragon Age 2’s story would hold far more water than trying to squeeze an argument out of a dried orange.

Dave of Canada wrote...

My problem with the Warden bounty is that everybody pretty much ignores it, the highly respected and loved Teryn Loghain places a bounty on the newly-returned Wardens and everybody instantly thinks Loghain is lying?

There are a few instances in the game were you are ambushed by people who want to collect on the bounty. However it does not go so well for them. I think considering the Blight, the Civil War and the fact it would be suicide to go up against a Warden, would you chance collecting on the bounty? If I was a poor dirt farmer with a pitch fork....uh hell no I would not go up against a Warden.

Modifié par Cantina, 12 mai 2012 - 09:51 .

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

I am well aware of the excuse used.  I feel it is inadequate and that it contributes to the colorlessness of the warden as a character.  It is also applied inconsistently.

No one treats Riordan as special except the two of you.   More importantly, everyone defers to you instead of Alistair.  No matter how spineless and retiring Alistair is, that is just nonsense.  The story might work if you are playing the Cousland origin, but it utterly fails if you are playing anything else.   Especially if you are playing the mage or elvish origins.

People don't just ignore class, race, and criminal nature at the drop of a hat, especially when they have a clear alternative.  Not to mention that the truth about the Wardens being necessary is a super secret "we will murder you for knowing it" secret, so its just legends about an Order that was outlawed (with reason) until very recently.  Not to mention the official story being that the Wardens are the ones who betrayed the King.

They ignore those factors for Wardens, that is iestablished. Riordan was treated specially, Eamon showed respect and Howe imprisoned him because he was a Warden.

Many in Ferelden don't trust Loghain, like the lords refusing to obey his orders. It was generally suspected that Loghain left the king to die, especially by certain lords.

As for Alistair, well that is just how he is written, he defers everything to the Warden no matter what. Since he is a fairly new initiate into the order, and few outside of the party know exactly which of the two is the senior, It seems they look to the one making the decisions. The only one who would likely acknowledge Alistair over you is Loghain, and why he doesn't is because he sees you as the stronger and more worthy. Remember what he said when Alistair defeats him?

I understand why they just papered over the origins and pretended everything was nicey-nice.  Most players don't want to be treated like the crap that their character is actually considered and it would also involve quite a bit of additional resources to tailor the story to the origins.   But the result is you have yet another "prophecy noob" story, where someone is elevated to uberness through no fault or merit of their own.

That's why I much prefer the story attempted in Dragon Age 2.  Its why I prefer games with a more fixed protagonist.  I want the world tailored to my actual character.   What's the point of playing a half orc or a DA city elf or gypsy or whatever, if everyone treats you like lordling?

I know a lot of people want to play games where they create any sort of character, but I find that makes the character bland and colorless because the world treats you that way.  Yeah, I can fanfic the game into sense, but I write my own fiction already.  I don't need or want a game to be the framework for that.

This is where we get into differences of opinion , which is not something I would like to do right now.

I do agree with you though, quite often the writing does not adequately address the PC's background. The writers should have spent more time to diversify the PCs story based on background in DAO. But DA2 did something similar, when you play as a Mage, NO-ONE EVER NOTICES. In a city with Templars who are especially hard on mages, this was quite a plothole.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...


They ignore those factors for Wardens, that is iestablished. Riordan was treated specially, Eamon showed respect and Howe imprisoned him because he was a Warden.
.

I do agree with you though, quite often the writing does not adequately address the PC's background. The writers should have spent more time to diversify the PCs story based on background in DAO. But DA2 did something similar, when you play as a Mage, NO-ONE EVER NOTICES. In a city with Templars who are especially hard on mages, this was quite a plothole.

I know they claim that people mysteriously ignore the warden's background.  I just think it is a pure fantasy to think people actually would.  That's my point. Its just another version of "mysterious prophecy makes you special".   I don't like that kind of background.

And, yes, it was completely ridiculous that they ignored the mages in the group given the rest of the story.  It was fairly ridiculous in DAO, but DA2 made it much worse.  That's why I never played the mage version of Hawke.   Bethany and Avelline's first husband are the only two who act appropriately.

I don't even want to get further into the disaster that was Alistair.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 13 mai 2012 - 02:05 .

[Vormaerin]

Cantina wrote...

I give up though, seems no matter how much information is thrown out there to counteract these silly accusations it will never end.

You aren't counteracting them, you are reinforcing them.  The Warden is just another "DM declares you special, people fawn on you just because" background.   I don't like those God-amongst-men backgrounds.

I want to play someone who saves the day because he's more heroic than anyone else.  Not because the DM defines that everyone else is useless and only I can accomplish anything.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

wsandista wrote...


They ignore those factors for Wardens, that is iestablished. Riordan was treated specially, Eamon showed respect and Howe imprisoned him because he was a Warden.
.

I do agree with you though, quite often the writing does not adequately address the PC's background. The writers should have spent more time to diversify the PCs story based on background in DAO. But DA2 did something similar, when you play as a Mage, NO-ONE EVER NOTICES. In a city with Templars who are especially hard on mages, this was quite a plothole.

I know they claim that people mysteriously ignore the warden's background.  I just think it is a pure fantasy to think people actually would.  That's my point. Its just another version of "mysterious prophecy makes you special".   I don't like that kind of background.

And, yes, it was completely ridiculous that they ignored the mages in the group given the rest of the story.  It was fairly ridiculous in DAO, but DA2 made it much worse.  That's why I never played the mage version of Hawke.   Bethany and Avelline's first husband are the only two who act appropriately.

I don't even want to get further into the disaster that was Alistair.

I believe I get your point, but while they would show respect to the rank of Grey Warden, they would still be prejudiced against the individual. While still entitled to the privileges granted to Grey Wardens, the PC should've been received differently in several situations based on their backgrounds. There were some cases of this, but not nearly enough. This seems to be due to "sloppy writing", like the mage Hawke situation. If they allow race-selection or even background-selection in DA3, they should heavily focus on making reactions to the PC consistent to how the NPCs would view the PC.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...
I believe I get your point, but while they would show respect to the rank of Grey Warden, they would still be prejudiced against the individual. While still entitled to the privileges granted to Grey Wardens, the PC should've been received differently in several situations based on their backgrounds. There were some cases of this, but not nearly enough. This seems to be due to "sloppy writing", like the mage Hawke situation. If they allow race-selection or even background-selection in DA3, they should heavily focus on making reactions to the PC consistent to how the NPCs would view the PC.

Yes.  As I said before, the story more or less works if you are playing the Cousland background.   But it works significantly less well for other origins.   There are still problems with the idea of the Gray Wardens being accepted as Kingmakers in the Ferelden culture, especially given that they were banished for attempting a coup in the past.

I don't think its sloppy writing in the sense that they didn't know what they were doing.  I am sure they realized that most players wouldn't really enjoy being spit upon, ignored, stared at, insulted, and generally forced to endure the sort of treatment the elves of Ferelden actually receive.  And the same with mage characters.

I don't think you should write those sorts of characters in that case.  But I know that's an unpopular view on the forums.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 13 mai 2012 - 06:35 .

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

Yes.  As I said before, the story more or less works if you are playing the Cousland background.   But it works significantly less well for other origins.   There are still problems with the idea of the Gray Wardens being accepted as Kingmakers in the Ferelden culture, especially given that they were banished for attempting a coup in the past.

I don't think its sloppy writing in the sense that they didn't know what they were doing.  I am sure they realized that most players wouldn't really enjoy being spit upon, ignored, stared at, insulted, and generally forced to endure the sort of treatment the elves of Ferelden actually receive.  And the same with mage characters.

I don't think you should write those sorts of characters in that case.  But I know that's an unpopular view on the forums.

They still should of had those negative reactions to the PC depending on background I believe, it should have just been part of role-playing the character. Part of playing a character should be dealing with the negative reactions from others.

[Ghidorah14]

Vormaerin wrote...

I know they claim that people mysteriously ignore the warden's background.  I just think it is a pure fantasy to think people actually would.  That's my point. Its just another version of "mysterious prophecy makes you special".   I don't like that kind of background.

A "mysterious prophecy" isnt what makes the Warden special. It's being pro-active and not letting obvious future threats just walk away.

It's easy (and also stupid) to say "well how come can the warden do all this amazing stuff and talk to everyone important?" Well, because YOU ARE THE WARDEN. Obviously if the game was 12 minutes long and killed you off right then and there, then it wouldnt be much of a game now would it?

So OBVIOUSLY your character has to be special in some way. Otherwise, what would you do as an ordinary solider/mage/whatever? You would just exist.

It's just that it was handled much better in Origins than DA2.

Modifié par Ghidorah14, 13 mai 2012 - 09:52 .

[Vormaerin]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

So OBVIOUSLY your character has to be special in some way. Otherwise, what would you do as an ordinary solider/mage/whatever? You would just exist.

It's just that it was handled much better in Origins than DA2.

Its not obvious that the character has to be appointed from on high to be special.  It is entirely possible to show the character *earning* their specialness.  Not getting picked by Obi Wan Duncan, given the magic juice, and secret death star plans all in an entirely passive intro.   And then having everyone treat you as special because you know the secret handshake or whatever.

You could have a pro active, 'I"m a hero because I am' background like Loghain.   Or even Hawke, if you fix the passivity of the story telling.   Loghain rises from nothing to the pinnacle of power by his own actions.  He's only unable to stop the archdemon because no one gives him the magic potion.  If you do, he's all over that job.

I HATE HATE HATE the 'only you can save the world, because every other competent person is disqualified by reasons having nothing to do with skill or effort' type of story.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 13 mai 2012 - 11:45 .

[the_one_54321]

Exceptional accomplishments require exceptional individuals.

However, being an exceptional individual does not require super powers, or an arrogant attitude.