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[In Exile]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

A "mysterious prophecy" isnt what makes the Warden special. It's being pro-active and not letting obvious future threats just walk away.

The Warden isn't pro-active at all. Unless somehow being an errand boy for Duncan and Flemeth is pro-active?

You do get to be your own person - very rarely - in DA:O. But it doesn't happen very much. And it doesn't happen with the very thing you're supposed to be focused on, i.e. be a Warden.

So OBVIOUSLY your character has to be special in some way. Otherwise, what would you do as an ordinary solider/mage/whatever? You would just exist.

It's just that it was handled much better in Origins than DA2.

Not really. You're really good at killing in DA:O. and Hawke is really good at killing in DA2. The Warden kills lots and lots of Darkspawn, and then is special. Hawke kills lots and lots of qunari, and then is special.

That's all it boils down to.

[In Exile]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Exceptional accomplishments require exceptional individuals.

However, being an exceptional individual does not require super powers, or an arrogant attitude.

But it makes you a God-Among-Mortals.

[the_one_54321]

In Exile wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Exceptional accomplishments require exceptional individuals.

However, being an exceptional individual does not require super powers, or an arrogant attitude.

But it makes you a God-Among-Mortals.

Not necessarily. Lots of exceptional people do lots of exceptional things all the time, in real life. None of them are gods-among-mortals. They are simply exceptional.

[In Exile]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Not necessarily. Lots of exceptional people do lots of exceptional things all the time, in real life. None of them are gods-among-mortals. They are simply exceptional.

Hawke was simply exceptional. In the real world, whether you're in the 0.5% of a trait, or 0.0001%, you're just different degrees of exceptional.

[Vormaerin]

In Exile wrote...

But it makes you a God-Among-Mortals.

You can be exceptional without requiring something to disqualify every candidate so that they have to treat you like the second coming.

Conan (like the other REH heroes) is exceptional, but until late in the series when he's king, no one treats him as "Special."    Shepard in ME1 (but not 2 & 3) is just a very very good soldier in the right place to do something exceptional.

Real badass people like William Marshal and Jean La Maingre (Marshal Boucicault) would be excellent models for heroes.  Just being badass *and* proactive is pretty damned exceptional.   You don't need more than that if you tell the story correctly.

[AkiKishi]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Not necessarily. Lots of exceptional people do lots of exceptional things all the time, in real life. None of them are gods-among-mortals. They are simply exceptional.

Protagonists in games tend to be the powerful figures , people generally don't like playing second fiddle to their own party. Bioware in particular tend to exagerate this feature.
Bhaalspawn,Shepard, Warden, Hawke are all comic book/movie characters. Hawke in particular inhabits a very mundane setting which makes the difference even more exagerated.

If you took a special forces guy and stuck him on one of those amazon villages, you could get a similiar effect. He's not a god perse, but in the enviroment he is , he may as well be.

[Vormaerin]

We seem to be having two different discussions here.

Some people are arguing about whether the protagonist is powerful or not. That's pretty much a given, imho. How powerful relative to the rest of cast can be set at various levels, but the hero is (and should) be amongst the most powerful figures capable of taking action. The LotR is a good book, but you wouldn't want to be stuck playing Frodo in a party based game where Aragorn, Gandalf, and Legolas were companions.

That is an entirely different point from the one I am trying to make, which is about how the rest of the characters treat the protagonist. Shepard (in ME2 & 3) is an even better example of the messiah complex than the Warden. The Warden at least has a few fig leaves from the authors to explain his/her messiah status, annoying as it is. Shepard just is for no real reason.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

We seem to be having two different discussions here.

I'm suprised it is only two, most threads seem to dissolve into several mud-slinging contests between individuals.

That is an entirely different point from the one I am trying to make, which is about how the rest of the characters treat the protagonist. Shepard (in ME2 & 3) is an even better example of the messiah complex than the Warden. The Warden at least has a few fig leaves from the authors to explain his/her messiah status, annoying as it is. Shepard just is for no real reason.

The protagonist shouldn't be treated as the Chosen One, they should be a skilled individual who has the abilities and is willing to perform the tasks given them. The Warden was an example of this, any Grey Warden could have stopped the Archdemon, it was just that there were only 3 around during the razing of Denerim, out of those 3 the most senior dies during the siege so it fall down to 2 members of about the same rank.

[AkiKishi]

Vormaerin wrote...

We seem to be having two different discussions here.

Some people are arguing about whether the protagonist is powerful or not. That's pretty much a given, imho. How powerful relative to the rest of cast can be set at various levels, but the hero is (and should) be amongst the most powerful figures capable of taking action. The LotR is a good book, but you wouldn't want to be stuck playing Frodo in a party based game where Aragorn, Gandalf, and Legolas were companions.

That is an entirely different point from the one I am trying to make, which is about how the rest of the characters treat the protagonist. Shepard (in ME2 & 3) is an even better example of the messiah complex than the Warden. The Warden at least has a few fig leaves from the authors to explain his/her messiah status, annoying as it is. Shepard just is for no real reason.

That's more of a CRPG and especially a Bioware thing exagerated protagonists.

First of all it was the Prothean beacon. Then saving the galaxy , saving the galaxy will buy you a lot of street cred. In the case of the Warden it's what he/she represents.
In the case of Hawke,it's that no one else in Kirkwall can be arsed to do anything on their own.

[Tirigon]

I actually dont think a "god amongst mortal" character is a bad thing. Being normal (well or only slightly superior to everyone else) is what most of us experience in their day-to-day life, being the all-ppowerful master of the universe is a big part of WHY I play video games to start with.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

The protagonist shouldn't be treated as the Chosen One, they should be a skilled individual who has the abilities and is willing to perform the tasks given them. The Warden was an example of this, any Grey Warden could have stopped the Archdemon, it was just that there were only 3 around during the razing of Denerim, out of those 3 the most senior dies during the siege so it fall down to 2 members of about the same rank.

I consider that to be artificially inducing messiah status on the protagonist.   The only reason the PC is important is because every other gray warden conveniently died or was born without a spine.   It is demonstrated that there are other warriors with more experience and at least as much skill and willpower around  (Cauthrien, Loghain, etc) but they are disqualified in favor of the stripling nobody because someone randomly gave him the secret power to save the universe.

[Vormaerin]

BobSmith101 wrote...

First of all it was the Prothean beacon. Then saving the galaxy , saving the galaxy will buy you a lot of street cred. In the case of the Warden it's what he/she represents.
In the case of Hawke,it's that no one else in Kirkwall can be arsed to do anything on their own.

The prothean beacon didn't give Shepard any super powers.  I just gave him information that others chose to ignore.  That's perfectly valid.  Shepard wasn't the hero because no one else could do what he's doing.  Its because no one else thought it was necessary.  He's established as a badass in his own right (N7 commando) from the get go and has status (long serving, successful military officer) to justify people taking him somewhat seriously.

Of course, that ended in ME2 and ME3, where the idea that Shepard was something other than a badass in the right place took hold.  He suddenly became "sole hope for humanity" for no particular reason.

No one else can be arsed to do anything is a fine reason for the protagonist being the hero. The powers that be in Kirkwall distrust each other so much that they cancel each other out.  Hawke slides into the gaps.  If the story had allowed more player agency, it would have been awesome.

[Tirigon]

Vormaerin wrote...

wsandista wrote...

The protagonist shouldn't be treated as the Chosen One, they should be a skilled individual who has the abilities and is willing to perform the tasks given them. The Warden was an example of this, any Grey Warden could have stopped the Archdemon, it was just that there were only 3 around during the razing of Denerim, out of those 3 the most senior dies during the siege so it fall down to 2 members of about the same rank.

I consider that to be artificially inducing messiah status on the protagonist.   The only reason the PC is important is because every other gray warden conveniently died or was born without a spine.   It is demonstrated that there are other warriors with more experience and at least as much skill and willpower around  (Cauthrien, Loghain, etc) but they are disqualified in favor of the stripling nobody because someone randomly gave him the secret power to save the universe.

And it gets even more ridiculous: The Warden is able to make Loghain a new Warden and have him do the deed - so why could they not another great warrior, or one of your companions, make a Warden? hell Oghren even becomes one in Awakeining... if they had chosen him instead of loghain at the Landsmeet much evil could have been avoided.

[In Exile]

Vormaerin wrote...
You can be exceptional without requiring something to disqualify every candidate so that they have to treat you like the second coming.

I agree. Too bad Bioware hasn't made a game like that yet.

Shepard gets nothing but "he's the best humanity has". If you play a war hero, everyone treats you like God from 6 minutes into the game.

That is an entirely different point from the one I am trying to make,
which is about how the rest of the characters treat the protagonist.
Shepard (in ME2 & 3) is an even better example of the messiah
complex than the Warden. The Warden at least has a few fig leaves from
the authors to explain his/her messiah status, annoying as it is.
Shepard just is for no real reason.

How exactly is the Warden "explained"? You get a hobo from the dwarven slums treated like a hero everywhere post-ostagar.

The Warden was an example of this, any Grey Warden could have stopped
the Archdemon, it was just that there were only 3 around during the
razing of Denerim, out of those 3 the most senior dies during the siege
so it fall down to 2 members of about the same rank.

The Warden isn't special for killing the archdemon.

[Tirigon]

In Exile wrote...


How exactly is the Warden "explained"? You get a hobo from the dwarven slums treated like a hero everywhere post-ostagar.

That is because being a Warden makes you a hero by definition.

The Warden isn't special for killing the archdemon.

Yes he is. it is explained in the game that if anyone but a Warden slays it, it will be reborn from the nearesrt Darkspawn. And I doubt anyone has the power to kill it a few 1000 times over.....

[Dr. wonderful]

Tirigon wrote...

In Exile wrote...


How exactly is the Warden "explained"? You get a hobo from the dwarven slums treated like a hero everywhere post-ostagar.

That is because being a Warden makes you a hero by definition.

...Well no, you are just a highly skilled soldier/Mage/Rogue who skills were sightly augument by drinking the blood of your eneimes, an Archdemon, and some Lyrium. (I still consider the most f*cking metal thing I ever heard).

Anyway, you could be a downright heartless bastard in the first game. Best example? City Elf origin getting paid to Abandon your cousin?

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

I consider that to be artificially inducing messiah status on the protagonist.   The only reason the PC is important is because every other gray warden conveniently died or was born without a spine.   It is demonstrated that there are other warriors with more experience and at least as much skill and willpower around  (Cauthrien, Loghain, etc) but they are disqualified in favor of the stripling nobody because someone randomly gave him the secret power to save the universe.

Grey Wardens are messiahs, since only they can stop the Blight. Is this artificially endowing members of that Order with a messiah complex, many would(I among them) say yes. Does it come without sacrifice, no, the Warden is given three choices: Let a Witch have an OGB(don't want to elaborate too much on this since this is a no-spoilers forum, but I'm positive most know the different downsides to this choice) , Let a friend(or old nemesis) die, or Die yourself, all of which have major downsides to them.

Hawke never had to make a sacrifice like this, he never had to let someone he was close to die, sacrifice himself, or give a shady individual something extremely powerful(need confirmation that OGB is powerful, I'm going to assume he isn't just a normal person though), to stop the big threat in Act 3. While Hawke can be forced to kill those close to him, it can be avoided, and he is never given an ultimatum like The Warden was.

[the_one_54321]

Perhaps one could argue that he may have had to [spoiler involving a Mage and a church].

But seeing as [mage] was raging lunatic, it hardly seems like much of a sacrifice to [spoiler] him.

[wsandista]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Perhaps one could argue that he may have had to [spoiler involving a Mage and a church].

But seeing as [mage] was raging lunatic, it hardly seems like much of a sacrifice to [spoiler] him.

Well then that one would be wrong, seeing as Hawke doesn't have to [spoiler] after [spoiler involving insane mage and church]. While the Warden has to pick one of three options, that all have downsides to them. It seems that most DA2 fanbros like to throw out false equivalences to illustrate that DA2 had hard choices as well. They never succed though.

[the_one_54321]

Hawke also has 3 unpleasant options after the bad thing happens. Do nothing, take sides with or take sides against. All of which kind of suck in their own way. Because [mage] was a raving lunatic and went a long way toward ruining everything for everyone.

[wsandista]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Hawke also has 3 unpleasant options after the bad thing happens. Do nothing, take sides with or take sides against. All of which kind of suck in their own way. Because [mage] was a raving lunatic and went a long way toward ruining everything for everyone.

Somehow those seem to fall short of Kill yourself, let your friend kill himself, or knock up shady witch with OGB. Maybe that is just me being crazy, just like I seem to be crazy to want a silent PC and tactical combat instead of the AWESOME button.

[the_one_54321]

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing. Just pointing out the flip side.

[wsandista]

I know, I was pointing out that the flip-side was a false equivalency. Oh and that DA2 was bad for cutting down the role-playing with a VA and the combat with the AWESOME button.

[In Exile]

Tirigon wrote...
That is because being a Warden makes you a hero by definition.

Especially all the times people use their mind reading power to tell that you're a Warden? You don't actually ever have to out yourself in DA:O (except a few rare times when the dialogue tree forces you).

Yes he is. it is explained in the game that if anyone but a Warden slays it, it will be reborn from the nearesrt Darkspawn. And I doubt anyone has the power to kill it a few 1000 times over.....

No, I mean the in-game worship can't be about the archdemon killing, because that doesn't happen until the end of the game. When Loghain builds you up at the Landsmeet, it's basically all about how good at killing you are.

wsandista wrote...
Grey Wardens are messiahs, since only they
can stop the Blight. Is this artificially endowing members of that Order
with a messiah complex, many would(I among them) say yes. Does it come
without sacrifice, no, the Warden is given three choices: Let a Witch
have an OGB(don't want to elaborate too much on this since this is a
no-spoilers forum, but I'm positive most know the different downsides to
this choice) , Let a friend(or old nemesis) die, or Die yourself, all
of which have major downsides to them.

For 80 hours, you don't have any of that. The closest you get to the taint having a "cost" is that it will kill you in 30 years. The kill-it-and-die plot twist is almost as bad as the endgame in ME2 in terms of being a ridiculous caveat added at the end game.

Otherwise, everyone is treating you like you are the greatest thing ever.

Not to mention you don't have to buy that there is a downside to the OGB, and if you hate that old friend or the nemesis, it's like getting Christmas twice.

Hawke never had to make a sacrifice like this, he never had to let
someone he was close to die, sacrifice himself, or give a shady
individual something extremely powerful(need confirmation that OGB is
powerful, I'm going to assume he isn't just a normal person though), to
stop the big threat in Act 3. While Hawke can be forced to kill those
close to him, it can be avoided, and he is never given an ultimatum like
The Warden was.

That's because Hawke fails. The Warden doesn't.

wsandista wrote...Maybe that is just me being crazy, just like I
seem to be crazy to want a silent PC and tactical combat instead of the
AWESOME button.

You just have bad taste.

But seriously, DA:O's combat wasn't any more tactical than DA2, considering both on nightmare.