485 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Hawke doesn't just repeatedly succeed.

As a matter of fact, Hawke repeatedly fails.

[wsandista]

In Exile wrote...

For 80 hours, you don't have any of that. The closest you get to the taint having a "cost" is that it will kill you in 30 years. The kill-it-and-die plot twist is almost as bad as the endgame in ME2 in terms of being a ridiculous caveat added at the end game.

Did you mean ME3?

Anyways that whole "by the way, in 30 years instead of living a peaceful life if you haven't died doing your GW business, your going to choose between killing Darkspawn in the Deep Roads as your last stand or degenerating into a ghoul" sounds like a raw deal to me. The kill-it-and-die actually explained exactly why Grey Wardens are needed to stop blights in a way that is marginally better than "becuz theyz iz awesomz", just imo anyways.

Otherwise, everyone is treating you like you are the greatest thing ever.

You mean besides the ruler of Ferelden who is trying to kill you?

Not to mention you don't have to buy that there is a downside to the OGB, and if you hate that old friend or the nemesis, it's like getting Christmas twice.

No downside to either letting a dark witch get her hands on a powerful being or losing the woman you love? And that is a big if my friend. Some people actually like Alistair and Loghain.

That's because Hawke fails. The Warden doesn't.

We must have played different DA2s then. I saw Hawke suffer tragedy, because of the actions of others, not because of his own shortcomings. I always assumed failure was due to the shortcomings of the one who failed, which in that case Hawke doesn't.

You just have bad taste.

You sound like my ex-girlfriend.

But seriously, DA:O's combat wasn't any more tactical than DA2, considering both on nightmare.

I disagree that DAO was less tactical than DA2(assuming both on nightmare of course). However I do believe that DAO needed to be more tactical than it was, particularly concerning status effects, which with all of the flaws in it, DA2 had the right idea with cross-class combos, although I would like to see it expanded beyond just 3 class-specific status effects.

[In Exile]

wsandista wrote...
Did you mean ME3?

Yup! Bad typo.

Anyways that whole "by the way, in 30 years instead of living a peaceful life if you haven't died doing your GW business, your going to choose between killing Darkspawn in the Deep Roads as your last stand or degenerating into a ghoul" sounds like a raw deal to me.

It's something you're forced into on penalty of death. It's not a heroic sacrifice, because Duncan outright lies to you the entire time, and then threatens to kill you right then and there if you don't play Grey Warden Roulette.

The kill-it-and-die actually explained exactly why Grey Wardens are needed to stop blights in a way that is marginally better than "becuz theyz iz awesomz", just imo anyways.

No, it didn't. Because for 95% of the plot, being a Grey Warden is totally irrelevant. No one cares about the treaties. The only time they maybe matter is Orzammar, except not, because you get your troops as a political favour more than a result of a legal obligation. And being immune to the blight is irrelevant, because all your non-GW pals manage just fine.

The game doesn't require a Grey Warden, and that's a big problem. The cut-content (Blight kills non-Wardens, you have to turn your party into Warden or they die) would make sense, but we never got that.

You mean besides the ruler of Ferelden who is trying to kill you?

And he did such a good job, I got to freely walk about his occupied capital city, while working for his city guard. Who - by the way - refuse to report me because of how I iz Awesum1 Gray Wardan.

No downside to either letting a dark witch get her hands on a powerful being or losing the woman you love? And that is a big if my friend. Some people actually like Alistair and Loghain.

My point is that how much that's really a cost depends on the player, and the RP.

We must have played different DA2s then. I saw Hawke suffer tragedy, because of the actions of others, not because of his own shortcomings. I always assumed failure was due to the shortcomings of the one who failed, which in that case Hawke doesn't.

The Warden succeed entirely becuase of others and fluke, but that character's on the pedestal. The flipside is Hawke gets the blame for doing exactly nothing about all of Kirkwall's issues.

You sound like my ex-girlfriend.

Hey now - I didn't say you tasted bad.

I disagree that DAO was less tactical than DA2(assuming both on nightmare of course).

I'm not sure I can parse that sentence. Could you clarify?

However I do believe that DAO needed to be more tactical than it was, particularly concerning status effects, which with all of the flaws in it, DA2 had the right idea with cross-class combos, although I would like to see it expanded beyond just 3 class-specific status effects.

I agree.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...


Anyways that whole "by the way, in 30 years instead of living a peaceful life if you haven't died doing your GW business, your going to choose between killing Darkspawn in the Deep Roads as your last stand or degenerating into a ghoul" sounds like a raw deal to me. The kill-it-and-die actually explained exactly why Grey Wardens are needed to stop blights in a way that is marginally better than "becuz theyz iz awesomz", just imo anyways.

Yes, its a raw deal.  But its not in any way to the credit of the PC, especially if you aren't the Cousland origin  (which, as I said, almost works).   Your character is under sentence of death and you join the Gray Wardens only because its the only way to survive.

The City elf and the commoner dwarf are sure the heck not trading away anything.  They are chosing  between "Dead now and not dead now."   The Cousland origin is pretty close to that.    So your heroic sacrifice is "dying in 30 yrs instead of dying today."   Did I ever mention how impressed I am?   Not to mention, you don't actually know that's the deal when you make the trade.   So it is more "Duncan screwed you" than "You make a hard sacrifice."

[wsandista]

In Exile wrote...

It's something you're forced into on penalty of death. It's not a heroic sacrifice, because Duncan outright lies to you the entire time, and then threatens to kill you right then and there if you don't play Grey Warden Roulette.

All depends on the character. For one who willingly joined the Grey Wardens, the death sentence, while not something they expect, is something they willingly bear as a cost to guard against the Darkspawn.

No, it didn't. Because for 95% of the plot, being a Grey Warden is totally irrelevant. No one cares about the treaties. The only time they maybe matter is Orzammar, except not, because you get your troops as a political favour more than a result of a legal obligation. And being immune to the blight is irrelevant, because all your non-GW pals manage just fine.

The game doesn't require a Grey Warden, and that's a big problem. The cut-content (Blight kills non-Wardens, you have to turn your party into Warden or they die) would make sense, but we never got that.

Which I believe should have been addressed, maybe pull out some secret Grey Warden potion that makes others resistant to the taint for short periods of time. While it did not take a Grey Warden, it did take a skilled adventurer to handle most of the tasks in the game, which is a category almost all Grey Wardens fall in to.

And he did such a good job, I got to freely walk about his occupied capital city, while working for his city guard. Who - by the way - refuse to report me because of how I iz Awesum1 Gray Wardan.

True, and that should not have happened. Just like how certain individuals treated you well even if you were an elf or mage. I blame sloppy writing or unwillingness of the writers to have situations where the PC may be despised.

My point is that how much that's really a cost depends on the player, and the RP.

Some RP might think all 3 choices suck, some might love all of them. My point was that it can be the lesser of three evils for a PC, and not a "oh good i can have sex with sexy witch" or "at least i get to see that spineless idiot(or traitor) finally die" decision.

The Warden succeed entirely because of others and fluke, but that character's on the pedestal. The flipside is Hawke gets the blame for doing exactly nothing about all of Kirkwall's issues.

I could reverse the statement as well. Hawke is congratulated for hard work for things that can be attributed to luck, while The Warden is denied praise for things they accomplished. Both character unfairly have praise and criticism heaped upon them.

I'm not sure I can parse that sentence. Could you clarify?

I thought DAO was the more tactical game since positioning and traps played a bigger role for my battle-plans, while in DA2 I could simply overwhelm with great force and the occasional heal form whoever was the cure b****. I played both on Nightmare.

I agree.

I do believe hell might have froze over under a sky of flying pigs.

To bring this back to the topic about Gods-among-mortals, Hawke and The Warden are both of the same exceptional caliber, the difference is The Warden is an Epic Hero in an Epic Tale, while Hawke is an Epic Hero in a Mundane Tale.

Hawke would have been better served fighting in the Mage-Templar war and making his name there by performing his heroic deeds, instead Hawke was sidelined into a mundane(compared to The Wardens tale anyway) story he was too big for, and thus appears as a god-among-mortals.

Modifié par wsandista, 15 mai 2012 - 05:41 .

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

Hawke was sidelined into a mundane(compared to The Wardens tale anyway) story he was too big for, and thus appears as a god-among-mortals.

I'll be honest with you.  I have no idea why you think this is the case.  Nothing Hawke does indicates he's superhuman or that street gangs and rogue wizards are foes that are beneath him.   Only the gratuituous fight against the High Dragon potentially puts him in the league of supramortals.

[AkiKishi]

Vormaerin wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Hawke was sidelined into a mundane(compared to The Wardens tale anyway) story he was too big for, and thus appears as a god-among-mortals.

I'll be honest with you.  I have no idea why you think this is the case.  Nothing Hawke does indicates he's superhuman or that street gangs and rogue wizards are foes that are beneath him.   Only the gratuituous fight against the High Dragon potentially puts him in the league of supramortals.

The Warden set the bar high. But the Warden is already acknowledged as a super human fighting superhuman foes. Even the Warden needed an army.

Templars undergo years of training to be able to fight mages. Hawke just kills them in his stride, same with abominations. Templar training can't be upto much either since you kill them so easily.

[Tirigon]

In Exile wrote...

No, I mean the in-game worship can't be about the archdemon killing, because that doesn't happen until the end of the game. When Loghain builds you up at the Landsmeet, it's basically all about how good at killing you are.

And rightly so.
After all, by that time you have practically single-handedly:
- ended a century-old war between elves and werewolves
- made a dwarven king
- found (and possibly even reactivated) the Golem Anvil aka the most badass weapon in the universe
- cleansed an entire tower full of abominations, who (according to lore) are so powerful a single one can ravage an entire countryside
- saved a town from undead
- found the greatest reliquy of Thedas
- freed Denerim of Loghain's Tevinter slavers
- survived all Assassination attempts, even two by the legendary Crows, and killed most of Loghain's followers and allies.

I say, that deserves some respect

[Realmzmaster]

The warden did not end the war between the elves and werewolves. The warden ended a conflict between a particular elvish tribe and the werewolves. Nowhere in DAO does it state that the werewolves attacked any other elvish tribe. The werewolves attack only Zathrian's tribe, because he is the only one who can end the curse.
The game world reality does not allow the Warden to seek out any other dalish tribes to ask for aid.
The game sets the Warden up to be the God amongst mortals because it does not allow for failure. DAO also does not allow for any other way to resolve the situation. DA2 on the other hand does.

Take the Arishok fight Hawke can resolve the fight in more than one way There is no other way to resolve the fight against Loghain. It is simply a one on one battle. Both ways fit their respective stories.

I did not find the story in DA2 to be mundane. Nor do I find Hawke to be a God among mortals.

Everything said about the Warden is true because there are no other options. The Warden cannot say forget the dwarves and march with the army already at hand. He has to find the Urn of Sacred Ashes. The story in DAO and DA2 are both linear. Certain events have to happen. Hawke cannot avoid going into the Deep Roads to find treasure.
The reason I like DA2's story more than the Warden is because Hawke fails. The Warden always succeeds and gets an army from the dwarves or whoever. There is no failure. If you do not get all the armies DAO cannot proceed. Allowing the Warden to not do a main quest and still reaching the end game would have gone a long way to further player agency. The same with DA2.

I like both DAO and DA2 for different reason. I want a less linear story (more branching possibilities) with both the possibility of success and failure. That will get the game beyond the God amoung mortals idea.

[wsandista]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Hawke was sidelined into a mundane(compared to The Wardens tale anyway) story he was too big for, and thus appears as a god-among-mortals.

I'll be honest with you.  I have no idea why you think this is the case.  Nothing Hawke does indicates he's superhuman or that street gangs and rogue wizards are foes that are beneath him.   Only the gratuituous fight against the High Dragon potentially puts him in the league of supramortals.

The Warden set the bar high. But the Warden is already acknowledged as a super human fighting superhuman foes. Even the Warden needed an army.

Templars undergo years of training to be able to fight mages. Hawke just kills them in his stride, same with abominations. Templar training can't be upto much either since you kill them so easily.

Thank you BobSmith101, that was the perfect counter-point.

Modifié par wsandista, 15 mai 2012 - 07:04 .

[Wozearly]

Vormaerin wrote...

I'll be honest with you. I have no idea why you think this is the case. Nothing Hawke does indicates he's superhuman or that street gangs and rogue wizards are foes that are beneath him. Only the gratuituous fight against the High Dragon potentially puts him in the league of supramortals.

There are two ways to respond to that.

The first is to look at Hawke in his own right. Throughout the game, he finds himself hopelessly outnumbered by all manner of street gangs, wizards and darkspawn but can kill many of them with one or two abilities. Toe to toe, Hawke is more than capable of winning fights when outnumbered even when stamina is depleted.

His attacks are horribly effective right from the outset. Whilst nothing in Hawke's dialogue necessarily implies he feels that he's superhuman, his actions in combat demonstrate he's far, far above the level of most normal, mortal opponents. Only the most heroic opponents, groups of elite opponents, or hordes of lesser opponents actually present him with a reasonable risk of defeat.

You could argue that the Warden shares some of these characteristics. So the second way is comparative, using the Warden as a baseline 'hero' and comparing Hawke to them.

In the initial stages, the Warden is a relatively lacklustre combatant. Similarly sized groups of opponents pose a threat, and being outnumbered is a genuine risk. Elites pose a distinct danger to the Warden and their companions. Over time, as the Warden's skills grow, this balance changes. By the Battle of Denerim, their displays are comparable to Hawke's in terms of the number of foes they face and overcome.

Even laying aside the point that Hawke is besting larger numbers of the same opponents the Warden faced far earlier in his own journey, by the endgame stages Hawke is of at least comparable lethality to the Warden - arguably far greater.

If you ascribe to the view that the Warden was a God-Among-Mortals character, its simply illogical to say that Hawke isn't in the same league.

Modifié par Wozearly, 15 mai 2012 - 08:02 .

[Vormaerin]

Wozearly wrote...

If you ascribe to the view that the Warden was a God-Among-Mortals character, its simply illogical to say that Hawke isn't in the same league.

Well, I guess we'll get back to my same issue with levels discussed earlier.  The combat system is so stylized and embellished that its hard to take it as a literal explanation of events.  There is magic in the world, so maybe Isabella literally can simultaneously backstab every person in a room.  But I tend to doubt it and think that the quantity of foes is exaggerated just like the combat animations.

ALso, many of the leaders of the bad guys have the same kind of abilities, so its not entirely out of line with the rest of the world.

But once we get into that, we've got way off into left field.   I just think that the nature of Hawke's foes are in line what what other highly (but not superhumanly) skilled individuals in the game could be expected to be dealing with.

[Vormaerin]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Templars undergo years of training to be able to fight mages. Hawke just kills them in his stride, same with abominations. Templar training can't be upto much either since you kill them so easily.

Lots of guys train for years.  How many of them make the NBA? 

[brushyourteeth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

The Warden set the bar high. But the Warden is already acknowledged as a super human fighting superhuman foes. Even the Warden needed an army.

Templars undergo years of training to be able to fight mages. Hawke just kills them in his stride, same with abominations. Templar training can't be upto much either since you kill them so easily.

Yep, there is that. Extremely well put.

I have to ask the question, what would a game where the protagonist wasn't a "god among mortals" look like? I mean, who would really want to play a game where you fight mages or templars and consistently lose? The Taint provided a great excuse for the Warden, which is why one almost has to embrace the "gods among mortals" cliche in games like this. No one wants to play some average Joe who gets slaughtered. No one wants to be Seamus Dumar or Tomwise the poison merchant. It's weird to play a regular guy/girl with inexplicably godlike powers. We at least need an explanation. Tired? Probably, but it works. And it makes sense. I'm pretty okay with godlike power as long as I know why I have it and I have a goal for how to use it. Hawke ran around flaunting her inexplicable awesome out of what, boredom? How is Hawke so awesome (Varric's exaggerations?) and what is she supposed to do with it (stumble aimlessly into a world-changing fight or two?) Both those parts felt disconnected to me.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 16 mai 2012 - 07:00 .

[AkiKishi]

brushyourteeth wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

The Warden set the bar high. But the Warden is already acknowledged as a super human fighting superhuman foes. Even the Warden needed an army.

Templars undergo years of training to be able to fight mages. Hawke just kills them in his stride, same with abominations. Templar training can't be upto much either since you kill them so easily.

Yep, there is that. Extremely well put.

I have to ask the question, what would a game where the protagonist wasn't a "god among mortals" look like? I mean, who would really want to play a game where you fight mages or templars and consistently lose? The Taint provided a great excuse for the Warden, which is why one almost has to embrace the "gods among mortals" cliche in games like this. No one wants to play some average Joe who gets slaughtered. No one wants to be Seamus Dumar or Tomwise the poison merchant. It's weird to play a regular guy/girl with inexplicably godlike powers. We at least need an explanation. Tired? Probably, but it works. And it makes sense. I'm pretty okay with godlike power as long as I know why I have it and I have a goal for how to use it. Hawke ran around flaunting her inexplicable awesome out of what, boredom? How is Hawke so awesome (Varric's exaggerations?) and what is she supposed to do with it (stumble aimlessly into a world-changing fight or two?) Both those parts felt disconnected to me.

The new Atelier series is really the only one I've seen handle it with any sort consistency. The PC is weak, the party make fun of her for it. Even maxed out she's still never going to be able to kill anything of note.
However, the PC is also an alchemist and that's where the power comes from. When you can chuck bombs that can level cities and create living potions that heal you if you get wounded, being weak is not so much of a downside.

The only way to really rationalise DA2 is to put it down to Varric.Although why Casandra did not call bull**** when he started talking about enemies falling from the sky is anyones guess.

[AkiKishi]

Vormaerin wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Templars undergo years of training to be able to fight mages. Hawke just kills them in his stride, same with abominations. Templar training can't be upto much either since you kill them so easily.

Lots of guys train for years.  How many of them make the NBA? 

People who don't make the cut die in the Templars,or leave. It's an elite organisation like the anti mage special forces.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 mai 2012 - 10:20 .

[brushyourteeth]

Filament wrote...

Being a warden is no explanation for having superhuman powers, if we are assuming the warden has superhuman powers now. The taint provides no special power except sensing darkspawn-- the wardens are only an elite order because they recruit elites.

True, though you have to be made from super special stock to even survive the Joining. And you're a member of an elite organization uniquely qualified to eliminate the main threat. I really should have mentioned that in my last post.

Although Morrigan suspects that the taint may be the reason you're such a proficient lover. So who knows?

BobSmith101 wrote...

The new Atelier series is really the only one I've seen handle it with any sort consistency. The PC is weak, the party make fun of her for it. Even maxed out she's still never going to be able to kill anything of note.
However, the PC is also an alchemist and that's where the power comes from. When you can chuck bombs that can level cities and create living potions that heal you if you get wounded, being weak is not so much of a downside.

Interesting! Probably not what I'd want from a DA game though. Or what I'd guess a lot of people would want. Remember the backlash over Tallis seeming as skilled as Hawke? How dare anyone be as powerful as our protagonist! That's why I think our protag for DAIII should be awesome, but have at least a reasonable explanation for it. Templar training, Seeker status, even being a powerful mage would be enough. Just not an average Joe with ridiculous, unexplained powers. An average Joe can change the world, just not by annihilating anything in his path using nothing but his purportedly mediocre skills to do it.

When Varric asks Hawke about killing that ogre in Lothering....
Aggressive Hawke: It was in my way, so I killed it.

Oh brother. *eye rolls*

Next time we play a random refugee, he/she ought to have some kind of Atelier/Batman level resources to explain all the awesome.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 16 mai 2012 - 05:44 .

[Vormaerin]

BobSmith101 wrote...

People who don't make the cut die in the Templars,or leave. It's an elite organisation like the anti mage special forces.

Sorry, don't buy it.   There's way too many of them for it to be elite in the "super badasses only" sense.   Yeah, they have higher morale and training that regular forces.    Maybe that's just part of the general numbers inflation of the game vs the actual setting, but the impression is certainly that there are LOTS of templars.

They are elite like the Marines or a Guards unit, not elite like the SEAL or the SAS.  Either that, or the humans of Thedas have a propensity for producing badasses far out of proportion to the population.  

[Vormaerin]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I have to ask the question, what would a game where the protagonist wasn't a "god among mortals" look like? I mean, who would really want to play a game where you fight mages or templars and consistently lose?

What does that question have to do with anything?    While I know that there is a discussion of the degree of badassery between the Warden and Hawke going on, that's a derail of the thread.

God amongst men is not about badassery.  Of course the protagonist is going to be a badass in a fantasy adventure game.  God amongst men syndrome has to do with the way the protagonist is treated by everyone else in the setting.

Conan is supremely badass, but no one treats him as another other than a hard to kill man.  He's treated as a barbarian by those who would treat people like him as barbarians.  He's treated like a criminal by those aware that he's a thief, bandit, and pirate.  Enemies who know him are afraid of him, but just because he's good at killing things, not because he's the Avatar of Macguffin.

While the DA2 story needed more flesh on its bones, Hawke is ultimately that kind of character.  The fact that we are playing the video game of Varric's exaggerated version of events is not germane.  No one treats Hawke as anything other than an accomplished warrior   (No comment on the mage hawke side, as I didn't play it).  No one fawns on him or expects six impossible things before breakfast.  His rise to power to reasonable and something a lucky & highly skilled person could reasonably pull off.  (Again, the passivity of the storywriting is a different issue).  Nor does he fight anything that isn't reasonable for a top badass normal to deal with.  No gods, no world devouring serpents, no vast armies of doom.

God Amongst Men characters are ME 2 & 3 Shepard, the Warden, and any of the myriad prophecy brats (with or without superpowers).   Characters who are treated as special all out of proportion to their own merits.

The way Warden status immediately elevates the player from gutter scum criminal to honored of the land, they way it disqualifies every other person in the country from accomplishing anything, and the way the game lets you solve pretty much every problem with a scot free solution is what makes the Warden a "god amongst men" character.   The fact that the Warden is also appointing rulers, slaying gods, and siring future Macguffins is just icing on the cake.

Billions are spent restoring Shepard to life because he's a "symbol".   Millenia old AI berserker clones take a personal interest in him.  Everyone and their brother tell him he is the only hope of civilization.   Because middle rank commando officers are supremely rare in a galaxy of trillions of sentients.

[brushyourteeth]

Jasmine96 wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I have to ask the question, what would a game where the protagonist wasn't a "god among mortals" look like? I mean, who would really want to play a game where you fight mages or templars and consistently lose?

What does that question have to do with anything?    While I know that there is a discussion of the degree of badassery between the Warden and Hawke going on, that's a derail of the thread.

Not really, her post had everything to do with what she quoted. And she has a point, would anyone still wan't to play Hawke or the Warden if he was this terrible fighter? Well maybe some people but rpgs promote being the super hero because it's something most people wan't but can't have in real life. I get that this has nothing to do with what you posted but it's still on topic with the other posts.

Thank you.

[the_one_54321]

Everyone, "god-among-mortals" was a sarcastic jab. It was not intended to qualify as a literal definitive title for only those characters that can be compared to NPCs as though comparing a fantasy demi-god to a mortal.