485 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

Jasmine96 wrote...

Not really, her post had
everything to do with what she quoted. And she has a point, would anyone
still wan't to play Hawke or the Warden if he was this terrible
fighter? Well maybe some people but rpgs promote being the super hero
because it's something most people wan't but can't have in real life. I
get that this has nothing to do with what you posted but it's still on
topic with the other posts.

I didn't realize anyone was arguing in favor of an unskilled or mediocre main character.  I must have missed those posts. 

If it was just a sidebar question, there are games like that but they obviously aren't really RPGs.  RPGs are pretty significantly about combat in almost all cases.  And most of the ones that aren't about a combat hero have little or no combat in them.

[LolaLei]

Vormaerin wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I have to ask the question, what would a game where the protagonist wasn't a "god among mortals" look like? I mean, who would really want to play a game where you fight mages or templars and consistently lose?

What does that question have to do with anything?    While I know that there is a discussion of the degree of badassery between the Warden and Hawke going on, that's a derail of the thread.

God amongst men is not about badassery.  Of course the protagonist is going to be a badass in a fantasy adventure game.  God amongst men syndrome has to do with the way the protagonist is treated by everyone else in the setting.

Conan is supremely badass, but no one treats him as another other than a hard to kill man.  He's treated as a barbarian by those who would treat people like him as barbarians.  He's treated like a criminal by those aware that he's a thief, bandit, and pirate.  Enemies who know him are afraid of him, but just because he's good at killing things, not because he's the Avatar of Macguffin.

While the DA2 story needed more flesh on its bones, Hawke is ultimately that kind of character.  The fact that we are playing the video game of Varric's exaggerated version of events is not germane.  No one treats Hawke as anything other than an accomplished warrior   (No comment on the mage hawke side, as I didn't play it).  No one fawns on him or expects six impossible things before breakfast.  His rise to power to reasonable and something a lucky & highly skilled person could reasonably pull off.  (Again, the passivity of the storywriting is a different issue).  Nor does he fight anything that isn't reasonable for a top badass normal to deal with.  No gods, no world devouring serpents, no vast armies of doom.

God Amongst Men characters are ME 2 & 3 Shepard, the Warden, and any of the myriad prophecy brats (with or without superpowers).   Characters who are treated as special all out of proportion to their own merits.

The way Warden status immediately elevates the player from gutter scum criminal to honored of the land, they way it disqualifies every other person in the country from accomplishing anything, and the way the game lets you solve pretty much every problem with a scot free solution is what makes the Warden a "god amongst men" character.   The fact that the Warden is also appointing rulers, slaying gods, and siring future Macguffins is just icing on the cake.

Billions are spent restoring Shepard to life because he's a "symbol".   Millenia old AI berserker clones take a personal interest in him.  Everyone and their brother tell him he is the only hope of civilization.   Because middle rank commando officers are supremely rare in a galaxy of trillions of sentients.

Cool it Rambo, you'll give yourself a hernia.

... D'ya know who would kick everyone's arse? Chuck Norris. True story.

Modifié par LolaLei, 17 mai 2012 - 12:54 .

[robertthebard]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...
That's not true, all you have to do is pick the diplomatic tone and hawke is about as humble and nice as it gets.

schalafi wrote...
That's pretty much dependent on what dialogue choice you choose. I stayed away from sarcastic comments so I never had that dialogue.

I'm not saying you're mistaken, but in all the dialog vids I've seen (and there are a ton of them, of course) I've never heard Hawke be anything but fool hardy. Even when there was no sarcasm or joking.

(well, of course there's a number of exceptions in the NPC interactions, but that's not really the issue here)

So you're basing this solely on what other people chose to do with their hero?  That's the thing about role playing games, you can play any role that's presented.  I have yet to finish the game, but I have already had NPC's comment on my humility with Hawke.  I didn't feel limited, or restricted to "I have to say this" in a dialog that went against the way I wanted to play my hero.  I had the same kind of freedom in Origins; I played one Warden that kicked and screamed all the way through the game because he didn't want to be a Grey Warden, but because one of my clan mates was a moron, I didn't have much choice in the matter.  I have also played a Warden that embraced everything it was to be a Grey Warden, and sacrificed himself to save Ferelden, and Thedas, and pretty much everything in between.

This is what makes games like these replayable too; what if I'd done this instead of that, or hated mages, or hated the chantry, or hated both?  I'm pretty sure that, if you could side with Uldred, I might have done that too, once.  Just to see what happens.

Modifié par robertthebard, 17 mai 2012 - 01:19 .

[robertthebard]

Filament wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Everyone, "god-among-mortals" was a sarcastic jab. It was not intended to qualify as a literal definitive title for only those characters that can be compared to NPCs as though comparing a fantasy demi-god to a mortal.

I still don't see what it is intended to qualify as. Being portrayed as arrogant (which I disagree) is not the same as being portrayed as superpowered. If superpowers provide a reason to be arrogant which the Warden does not capitalize on while Hawke does, and if that is your complaint, then your complaint isn't with their superpowered portrayal at all, just the (justified) arrogance. Not to mention that Hawke doesn't have to be that way, and I'm pretty sure the Warden can be arrogant too. (which you silent PC-ers with your infinite tonal variation would have to agree with)

Like I said, as far as superpowers go, I'm fine with the protagonist being superpowered. That's just how things work. Do I think DA2 maybe went too far in exaggerating the combat so as to make it strain belief? Yeah, maybe. But as a general concept I don't have a problem with it. And I don't see that the Warden has any more "excuse" to be superpowered than Hawke.

I believe there was another sidetrack in this long conversation about not their prowess or their attitude, but their accomplishments... but I think all reasonable people saw that it's hard to beat the Warden on those grounds, so complaining about Hawke... puzzling. And again, that's a thing I don't have a problem with either. Protagonists usually do accomplish a lot. DA2 was an interesting departure from that, in a way, but I'm fine not departing from it.

Basically this conversation has no focus at all because it was never given a focus, we're all just throwing putty on the wall and seeing which one sticks. As I see it, none of them do. :innocent:

Just a thought that occured to me after reading your post, but the protaganist should stand out from the crowd.  After all, in Origins, for example, if anyone could stop the blight, they wouldn't need Wardens, and frankly, if anyone could do what Hawke does in 2, then everyone would be the Hero of Kirkwall, and that title would be meaningless.  Since this is the no spoilers section, I can't go into specific details, but these two protaganists go through a lot of life and death to get where they got, and they deserve to stand out from the crowd.

[Morroian]

robertthebard wrote...

So you're basing this solely on what other people chose to do with their hero?  That's the thing about role playing games, you can play any role that's presented.  I have yet to finish the game, but I have already had NPC's comment on my humility with Hawke.  I didn't feel limited, or restricted to "I have to say this" in a dialog that went against the way I wanted to play my hero. 

Exactly I have a Hawke like that as well. There's nothing in the game stopping a player form having that kind of Hawke.

[the_one_54321]

Filament wrote...
I still don't see what it is intended to qualify as.

It's a simple discussion topic about character portrayal. Having a semantic debate would accomplish nothing except making it clear what is or isn't being percieved from any one fraze.

[the_one_54321]

I never said I don't have a point. I elaborated on the meaning of the title just now. If you expect me to have some strict definition of the term used in the title, I don't. Because it wasn't intended to be applied that way in the first place, as I elaborated. As for further discussion on my perceptions, well there's pages of it, already.

[the_one_54321]

There's pages of the stuff. If you find something that hasn't already gone in a circle, let me know.

[the_one_54321]

The combination of superpowers and arrogance. Though, arrogance is enough on its own. The Warden has some small measure of technical superpower, in that he can actually kill the Archdemon. I have not heard any line delivered by Hawke that was not arrogant. (that's hyperbole, yes I know there are some exceptions)

[the_one_54321]

It's entirely your prerogative to perceive something different from the voice actor than I did. Much earlier in the thread, my own problem was worked down to the delivery of the lines.

[Ghidorah14]

IMO, the Warden kind of has a reason to be stronger than the average joe, and has at least some measure of authority.

Hawke really doesnt.

[In Exile]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

IMO, the Warden kind of has a reason to be stronger than the average joe,

What do you mean? The reason you got to be a Warden was because how awesome you were. It's Awesome, then Warden, not the other way around.

[Realmzmaster]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

IMO, the Warden kind of has a reason to be stronger than the average joe, and has at least some measure of authority.

Hawke really doesnt.

The Grey Wardens only invite the brighest,  and best to start with regardless of social standing. The person is already above the average joe. The taint gives them the ability to sense darkspawn and for some limited communication. So the people recruited are already among the best of the best. Hawke is also well trained and on par or above some of the potential wardens in the DAO origins. So yes Hawke does have a reason.

[the_one_54321]

That got cleared up in the first five pages or so.

[David Gaider]

I am sad to report that I've read this entire thread.

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...

I am sad to report that I've read this entire thread.

Always makes me feel better.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 mai 2012 - 04:07 .