485 réponses à ce sujet

[Kail Ashton]

Was there a point to this topic or was it just pointless, self centered knit picking? wait....think i answered my own question

"i don't like like this completely oblivious thing, i think no one should ever do it again because i don't like it" wish that logic worked on forums, just imagine the possibilities!

[the_one_54321]

Kail Ashton wrote...
"i don't like like this completely oblivious thing, i think no one should ever do it again because i don't like it" wish that logic worked on forums, just imagine the possibilities!

You're telling me that this is not what everyone around here says about everything, all the time? Really? 

[brushyourteeth]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The kind of character that I always play in DA:O. It's not about limiting capability, but allowing humility.

I said specifically. Specifically!

"The kind of character that I always play" tells me nothing. NOTHING!

[the_one_54321]

I talked about the kind of character I play in DA:O in a post a page or several back. I was specific.

[brushyourteeth]

I've read every page of this thread and I really don't think you did.

[the_one_54321]

the_one_54321 wrote...

John Epler wrote...
But in the end, the other characters are reacting to the delivery that the writer intended. Sure, you can say 'well maybe they just misunderstood me', and that's probably fine for some people,

I can see this happening only for particularly unorthodox characters. I've never had a problem with it. Typically, for me the Warden deals very harshly with people that make themselves an obstical, but is otherwise polite, humble, and dedicated to his service as a Gray Warden. And I've never had that presentation contradicted by an NPC.

[brushyourteeth]

the_one_54321 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

John Epler wrote...
But in the end, the other characters are reacting to the delivery that the writer intended. Sure, you can say 'well maybe they just misunderstood me', and that's probably fine for some people,

I can see this happening only for particularly unorthodox characters. I've never had a problem with it. Typically, for me the Warden deals very harshly with people that make themselves an obstical, but is otherwise polite, humble, and dedicated to his service as a Gray Warden. And I've never had that presentation contradicted by an NPC.

Okay, so... based on that, paint me a word picture of how you think the DAIII protagonist ought to be presented.
"Humble" isn't enough. You started the thread on the basis of him/her not being a god among mortals. What should that entail? What did Hawke do that was wrong? "Be cocky" or "be perfect" isn't very specific.

[the_one_54321]

How is a description of arrogance not specific enough? I want a character that succeeds, but also exhibits humility.

[brushyourteeth]

the_one_54321 wrote...

How is a description of arrogance not specific enough? I want a character that succeeds, but also exhibits humility.

So you want a silent Hawke? Everything else was ok.

[the_one_54321]

brushyourteeth wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
How is a description of arrogance not specific enough? I want a character that succeeds, but also exhibits humility.

So you want a silent Hawke? Everything else was ok.

I suppose that's more or less accurate.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

How is a description of arrogance not specific enough? I want a character that succeeds, but also exhibits humility.

I want a character that exhibits whatever personality I design, and then succeeds or fails based on that personality.

Need I tell the story of my cowardly slacker Warden who was killed by Sten?

[In Exile]

the_one_54321 wrote...

How is a description of arrogance not specific enough? I want a character that succeeds, but also exhibits humility.

Well, no. You want a character who you believe is exhibiting humility. There's a big difference. 

[the_one_54321]

If he's not demonstrated to act without humility, it's good enough for me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Well, no. You want a character who you believe is exhibiting humility. There's a big difference.

the_one_54321 wrote...

If he's not demonstrated to act without humility, it's good enough for me.

Yes.  If the character isn't shown to behave in a way that precludes humility, that lets us add in the humility ourselves.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 01 mai 2012 - 11:31 .

[In Exile]

the_one_54321 wrote...

If he's not demonstrated to act without humility, it's good enough for me.

No, that's not right. "Demonstrated" can't work here, because there's nothing objective about humility.

I happen to think the Warden as a character is incapable of humility because of how the character is written. In fact, I think it's impossible in any Bioware game to have a character with humility, since all we have are Chosen Ones, either of the actual chosen by fate sort, or Mary Sues.

[Dakota Strider]

In Exile wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

If he's not demonstrated to act without humility, it's good enough for me.

No, that's not right. "Demonstrated" can't work here, because there's nothing objective about humility.

I happen to think the Warden as a character is incapable of humility because of how the character is written. In fact, I think it's impossible in any Bioware game to have a character with humility, since all we have are Chosen Ones, either of the actual chosen by fate sort, or Mary Sues.

Cannot disagree with you more.  I believe the way you see the character has everything to do with your own emotions and perspective when you play the game.  I have played the BG series, NwN series, and both DA games.  I cannot think of a single protagonist that "I" played, that could be said, lacked humility. 

In a conflict, there will almost always be a winner, and a loser.  It is always easy to consider the winner to be the Chosen One, after events have unfolded, and you can look back to see how they overcame all obstacles to prevail.  Now in a game, when we play the role of the protagonist, we do have meta-knowledge, that most likely the character we play will be the "Chosen One."  And that may skew some peoples' opinion, since they believe that by simply reaching the end of the game, success is assured.  And therefore, that may cause them to perceive that character is cocky, or arrogant, and even play the character that way.

If you could somehow take the Dragon Age Origins story, for example, and take it to a table top rpg game, with a live GameMaster, instead of a computer program to referee your actions, I think the player would lose the sense of invincibility that may lead to the feeling that the character has no humility.  If the gamemaster was anything like my old GM's, you would gain humility real fast, and there would be no sense of assurance that you would reach the final battle, let alone be victorious in it.

Perhaps my pnp background has caused me to play crpg's with the attitude that my character is the underdog (as the stories are generally written), and it is through determination, a bit of skill, and some luck that he succeeds time and again. 
In my DAO version, my Warden is not arrogant, reckless, cocky nor does he take victory for granted. He not only cares about his country of Ferelden, but cares about those that have joined him to try to defeat the Blight.  He may become exasperated, and frustrated at certain events, and vengeance and justice are two of his great motivators.  He certainly puts on a brave front, as much to keep himself going, as to bolster his comrades.   

When the end of the game came, my Warden was happy to have either Anora or Alastair on the throne, and get out of the limelight.  Having romanced Morrigan (which explains his survival), he wanted nothing more to let everyone else celebrate, while he tried to find her.  He was certainly happy to have won, but did not need the glory, nor felt he deserved it.  Someone had to be "The Chosen One".  If my Warden had fallen before the end, someone else would have carried on, and gained that moniker.

It is much easier to see the protagonist as you wish to play him or her in a game like DAO, where there is not an actor voicing how he/she feels.  it is much more difficult to have ownership of the character in DA2, but even then I was able to maintain enough illusion of control, to believe that my Champion was not a total arse.  However, if I had to compare the two games' protagonists, I would say the Champion definitely leaned more towards arrogant/not-humble.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 02 mai 2012 - 02:37 .

[TEWR]

Doesn't the Warden get the option to be humble come the endgame, where he can tell Wynne that he didn't defeat the Blight on his own, stating the very truth of the matter?

A humble person would do just that, wouldn't they? I always took it as such. Whereas someone that's not humble would go "Yup, I'm a genius. I'm a badass".

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mai 2012 - 03:50 .

[In Exile]

Dakota Strider wrote...
Cannot disagree with you more.  I believe the way you see the character has everything to do with your own emotions and perspective when you play the game.  I have played the BG series, NwN series, and both DA games.  I cannot think of a single protagonist that "I" played, that could be said, lacked humility. 

That's great for you. I disagree. Which is my point. It's not about anything objective. It's what you believe.

In a conflict, there will almost always be a winner, and a loser.  It is always easy to consider the winner to be the Chosen One, after events have unfolded, and you can look back to see how they overcame all obstacles to prevail.

Umm... in BG, you are literally a Chosen One.

And more importantly, it's not just about that.

Michael Jordan was a winner. Charles Barkley wasn't. But my 5'6 cousin wasn't in the NBA, because he sucks at basketball. There's winners and there's winners, and Bioware protagonists are always the "so special and talented" kind.

Now in a game, when we play the role of the protagonist, we do have meta-knowledge, that most likely the character we play will be the "Chosen One."  And that may skew some peoples' opinion, since they believe that by simply reaching the end of the game, success is assured.  And therefore, that may cause them to perceive that character is cocky, or arrogant, and even play the character that way.

No. It has nothing to do with that. It's about how the game world literally gets on its knees to felate you - the protagonist - with how great you are.

Bioware games are games were - generally - failure is almost impossible. DA2 and ME3 are the only games that really try and touch on something else (and ignoring what a bad job they do), it's all really happening at the end. For 99% of the game, you are an ubermensch with no equal, with every peon praising you as some kind of deity and every character deferring to your leadership.

In my DAO version, my Warden is not arrogant, reckless, cocky nor does he take victory for granted. He not only cares about his country of Ferelden, but cares about those that have joined him to try to defeat the Blight.  He may become exasperated, and frustrated at certain events, and vengeance and justice are two of his great motivators.  He certainly puts on a brave front, as much to keep himself going, as to bolster his comrades.  

Whatever mental fantasy you've come up with, the dialogue doesn't reflect it. You can't refuse your fawning companions from fawning over you as some kind of supreme leader. The closet you get to this is Sten calling you out for the Ashes, but that whole scene is stupid, because you're forced into the quest to begin with.

When the end of the game came, my Warden was happy to have either Anora or Alastair on the throne, and get out of the limelight.  Having romanced Morrigan (which explains his survival), he wanted nothing more to let everyone else celebrate, while he tried to find her.  He was certainly happy to have won, but did not need the glory, nor felt he deserved it.  Someone had to be "The Chosen One".  If my Warden had fallen before the end, someone else would have carried on, and gained that moniker.

Again, whatever mental fantasy you've invented,by that point in the game the Warden has:

1) Potentially killed a dragon.
2) Potentially killed flemeth.
3) Killed a Pride Demon (strong enough to kill regiments of templars).
4) Killed hundreds of darkspawn.
5) Killed a brood mother.
6) Killed several young dragons.
7) Killed multiple orgres.
8) Killed tens of abominations.

In relation to the lore, these are creatures that quite literally require entire regiments to kill. And the Warden does it with 3 plucky companions.

That's what makes the Warden basically a chosen one. You have quite literally become such an engine of destruction that it makes millenia old abominations are something you kill repeatedly each day.

That, despite this, you read in some kind of humble character is totally your business. But that doesn't make it any less subjective. Which is my point.

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Doesn't the Warden get the option to be humble come the endgame, where he can tell Wynne that he didn't defeat the Blight on his own, stating the very truth of the matter?

A humble person would do just that, wouldn't they? I always took it as such. Whereas someone that's not humble would go "Yup, I'm a genius. I'm a badass".

Telling the truth doesn't make you humble. In my opinion. Which is my point. It's a subjective judgement call.

A humble person would minimize their accomplishment, in my opinion.

Modifié par In Exile, 02 mai 2012 - 04:04 .

[Dakota Strider]

@in Exile . I am sorry you have had such a horrible experience in the game. I am surprised you even hang around the forums, let alone play Bioware games after the mental fantasy that you suffered under.

[jsadalia]

I'm fine with up-from-nothing regular heroes or chosen near-immortals, both can be (and have been) great fantasy stories if executed well. I just want to feel involved with the character's actions and have a solid sense that what I do matters. Origins gave me this more than DA2.

[the_one_54321]

In Exile wrote...
...

Accomplishment, confidence, and arrogance are not mutually inclusive. One can be completely awesome, or the greatest human being on the planet, and still be humble and gracious.

In Exile wrote...
Telling the truth doesn't make you humble. In my opinion. Which is my point. It's a subjective judgement call.

A humble person would minimize their accomplishment, in my opinion.

This is not an issue of subjectivity. You're claiming that one must be arrogant if one is accomplished. That is not true.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 02 mai 2012 - 04:19 .

[In Exile]

Dakota Strider wrote...

@in Exile . I am sorry you have had such a horrible experience in the game. I am surprised you even hang around the forums, let alone play Bioware games after the mental fantasy that you suffered under.

What makes you think I had a terrible experience? Just because I think the content that isn't in the game and you make up for yourself is fan-fiction doesn't mean I don't really enjoy what's in the game.

the_one_54321 wrote...
Accomplishment, confidence, and
arrogance are not mutually inclusive. One can be completely awesome, or
the greatest human being on the planet, and still be humble and
gracious.

I didn't say they were. I just said that I think being humble requires more than just telling the truth.

the_one_54321 wrote...
This is not an issue of subjectivity. You're claiming that one must be arrogant if one is accomplished. That is not true.

No, I'm not. Because not being humble is not the same as being arrogant. You're assuming it's binary.

[the_one_54321]

In Exile wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
This is not an issue of subjectivity. You're claiming that one must be arrogant if one is accomplished. That is not true.

No, I'm not. Because not being humble is not the same as being arrogant. You're assuming it's binary.

I cannot create juxtaposition without using a concept to juxtapose. Arrogance is the poloar opposite of humility. This does not require a binary relationship.

The point is that confidence and capability are not mutually exclusive of humility.