112 réponses à ce sujet

[january42]

It shows how much IQ matters in the real world, especially considering how many spelling and grammatical errors are present in your post.

Furthermore, the OP clearly has no idea how IQ is rated: 150 is genius level. 3000 is not human. Just saying.

Well, they probalby meant 300 and it was typo. Or possible  a Red Dwarf reference.

[Terraflare]

Please let's not turn this into a thread about what the criteria should be - i did not intend for this discussion to head that way and frankly I dont really care about any of your personal criteria/what you think should be a good gauge of a player's skill.

I am merely explaining from my POV why situations like that happen, in the hopes that new players/players frustrated at being kicked will understand the thinking behind it and therefore hopefully not take things personally.

[MarchWaltz]

I kick people with excessive X's in their Gamertags.

[darkblade]

Honestly it doesnt really matter, just some guys who think they can analyze the board like its HTML code and tell whats going to work an whats not.

The best way to not get kicked from gold is to start with all the crap people find "viable" on then when the team readies unready and change your crap then ready up real fast.

as for the N7 dilemma mine wont go higher then 180 im done promoting. period.

or they can do what i do...get a real life friend on with them so that you absolutely cant be kicked no matter what.

Modifié par darkblade, 30 avril 2012 - 11:35 .

[withneelandi]

A very interesting read.

More so because I'm about to enter the graduate job market.

[swjobson]

Short hand:

Show up with a level <17 power heavy class, get booted.

Or a sniper class with a non rare <VII weapon, get booted.

Nobody cares about how special a snowflake you are inside. Nobody wants to carry you as you grind for higher N7. Nobody cares that your build is super awesome, you just need a chance to prove it.

Find another lobby and get over yourself.

Modifié par swjobson, 30 avril 2012 - 11:46 .

[marshalleck]

darkblade wrote...

The best way to not get kicked from gold is to start with all the crap people find "viable" on then when the team readies unready and change your crap then ready up real fast.

I register a kick vote on anyone who tries to pull that on principle alone. And yes, I keep my finger on the spacebar after readying up just in case I need to stop the countdown.

Just make sure your loadout makes sense. I have a human engineer with Falcon equipped but I never get kicked. You'd think he'd have two strikes against him right out the gate:

-not salarian (yawn)
-heavy weapon on a power spammer

However, I also load up disruptor/cryo ammo (tech bursts hey) rail amps and either an efficiency or power modulator depending on what the rest of the group looks like. Never had anyone try to kick me.

[BoomDynamite]

You could probably use this for an assignment...very well reasoned and argued

Modifié par BoomDynamite, 30 avril 2012 - 11:51 .

[withneelandi]

BoomDynamite wrote...

You could probably use this for an assignment...very well reasoned and argued

OP is a graduate, they don't give a damm bout no assignment.

[Terraflare]

Im glad some people have found this interesting! It is by no means a very complex idea, just a way of formally articulating something that is fairly common sense.

@withneelandi: Good luck with your search! Whatever you do never offer to work for free - that is possibly one of the worse signals you can give. Sort of like an n7 8, level 8 drell vanguard carrying a scimitar and a mantis.

[neurovore]

Seriously, people. This is becoming quite sad. The real problem isn't that people choose poor loadout or class, but that others would sooner just kick them rather than, say, open their frakking mouth and ask the other person what is up, if they know that their choices will not work very well, and for crying out loud, OFFER ADVICE.

At least, no one on the PC side ever speaks. Sure, it may not usually be seen as needed, but it usually makes playing more enjoyable (and smoother!). It does. Do you want to know one of my top criteria for picking out a good player? They accept and ask for advice. The first part is important, due to the deathly silence in PC lounges. 95% of the time me or one of my friends offers advice to randoms (ie. "Hey, did you know that SMG light materials is bugged on that weapon?") they leave the lounge.

However, if they then swap it out to something useful, they have potential. Sure, they might not be stellar in the start. Ugh, I remember my first Gold match... I just wanted a random Silver to practice playing some class, but the leader switched it to Gold without me noticing, so I didn't even realize I was about to enter a Gold match with a suboptimally equipped character I couldn't play, so I ended up dying. Lots. After the game, the team went ahead with kick votes. I had to leave anyways so I didn't mind. Still, it discouraged for a long time to come. I still don't like looking for Gold matches partly fo that reason.

No one starts perfect, most have potential to become good, if not great, and teaching them how speeds up the process but all of it just goes to waste, if they are immediately kicked.

[Missme]

Unfortunately I'm a irrational risk loving individual when it comes to gaming. I'm willing to play with anyone with any loadout. Homogenous class and loadout is starting to bore me to death. Who cares if we are bound to failure? I enjoy the process far more than winning the match.

[Tony208]

like three hundred words just to say a simple thing, you use something other than generally accepted loadouts and people think you're a noob

Modifié par Tony208, 01 mai 2012 - 01:41 .

[marshalleck]

Tony208 wrote...

like three hundred words just to say a simple thing, 

you're such a krogan

[vonSlash]

Terraflare wrote...

Hi everyone. Over the past month I have noticed many threads created by players who are frustrated after having been kicked from a Gold lobby, seemingly for no reason, equally by hostile/non-hostile hosts/groups. While I don't advocate senseless and most importantly, misinformed kicking, I'd like to share some of the lessons behind why this occurs, and hopefully if you feel wronged about a kick, you might feel better.

For any Economics graduate, there are 2 key forces at play here. 1) Asymmetric Information and 2) Adverse selection. Briefly speaking, 1) revolves around the fact that a private agent (referred to as "the seller" possesses unobservable qualities that the "buyer", (in this case, the host) is unaware of. In the real world, these are your individual qualities - your intelligence, willingness to put in effort, trusthworthiness, responsibility, creativity etc. In a coop shooter like ME3, these will comprise of qualities such as your skill, experience with other FPSes, willingness to cooperate, winning mindset, and in general efficiency/capability at this game. 

How is this relevant? Think about a job interview session. There are 2 candidates - one who walks into the room, with a polished resume, with a 1st class degree from a top university, has represented his school at 4 international sporting events, and started that hedge fund society. The other is what one might call an oddball - on paper, not too bad, a decent degree from a middle university, decent grades, participated but doesn't have anything particularly stellar down on paper. Let's say the 1st guy actually has an IQ of 150, and the 2nd guy has an IQ of 3000. 

The interviewer has 10 minutes to decide who is best suited for the job, and who gets the "thank you, please try again next year" formality. Why does the 1st person get picked, even if his inate ability (his IQ), is far surpassed by the 2nd guy? The answer is clear, because IQ/ability is always a hidden piece of information, the employer will never find out the true quality of a person until the person is hired. In the eyes of the interviewer, the choice is clear - the first guy has "jumped through the hoops", however meaningless they might be. He has put in enough effort in life to achieve the achievements/accolades (albeit, paper), in order to 'prove' that he is capable. All this effort is not costless - it takes time, patience and determination. While the interviewer cannot observe the candidates' raw IQ/ability, he can, via his resume, observe exactly the qualities he would like - the determination and responsibility to get something done.

Relate this back to your game. When you enter a lobby with a low N7 rating, a "suboptimal" build (whether or not some of the builds are indeed suboptimal, is another story), and a low character level, you signal undesirable characteristics. Never mind if you are actually SpawN / cooler behind that keyboard. From the rank of your weapon, I can tell how much/how little you have played and bought packs. From your character level, I can tell whether YOU think a level 5 character will do just as well as a 20 because you think "you are good". From your N7, I can tell whether youve been sitting behind that keyboard playing for 200 hours instead of 20. Hell, even from the numbers in your nickname, I can tell your age (MrDog94 vs MrCat85) These are all imperfect approximations of what I wish I could observe (your true ability), but it's all I have.

A high N7 rating doesn't mean a player is better, it simply signals to me that this person has been playing longer, and is thus more likely to have run gold matches multiple times/know what's going on. Underpinning this is the fact that gaining character levels/upgrading weapons/getting a high N7 is a COSTLY signal that cannot be FAKED. This is the core concept underlying why lobbies kick - I would rather pick a guy who has ticked all the checkboxes (mundane and imperfect though they may be), rather than risk a terrible game with a person who might have simply found a way to shine and "make things work" despite not ticking the boxes. The act of ticking the checkboxes signals desirable characteristics in itself.

This brings me to 2) Adverse selection. Robert Akerlof won a Nobel Prize for illustrating this concept, underpinning used car markets and pricing. He observed that a brand new car (peach) straight out of the showroom, will see its price plummet when it is immediately put on the used car (Lemon) market, the day after it was bought. Why? To summarise and put it simply, this is because that the very fact that it is in the used car market signals to potential buyers, that on average, it is a lemon (bad car) as opposed to being a peach (good car), and is thus worth a lemon's price, not a peach. The market collapses, because potential peach sellers (people who want to get rid of good cars for legitimate reasons, such as moving out of the country), will refuse to sell their cars at lemon prices (they know its worth more). This is a self-fulfilling cycle - in the end, the only cars left in the market, traded and sold, MUST be lemons, and such, any car that enters the market must be a lemon.  

Again, how does this relate? Think of there being 2 types of players - peach and lemon-types. Peach types know the game, know how to make things work, know which combos work, which dont, what class synergies are good. Lemons don't, they are bad at this game. The peach player will never choose to use a poor loadout/character/equipment/mods (on average). Why would I use a BW + a claymore on an Asari? If I want to use a claymore, ill pick a good class with it. If I want to snipe, doing it with an Infiltrator is most efficient. What this implies is that anyone who is using a poor/inappropriate loadout is automatically categorising himself into the market for lemons - ie. he is poor player. Whether or not this is fair is another issue, because again, rational agents (the host), are not willing to risk a bad game for the offchance that you can make that Avenger IV loadout work in ways he/she has never thought possible. As such, they get the boot. Notice this, similar to Akerlof's lemons vs peaches, is a self fulfilling cycle. Poorer players cant join Gold - cant farm credits fast enough - cant buy packs - cant upgrade weapons - automatically enter the lemon market by having lower leveled equpiment. The only way to break out of the lemon market is to again, jump through the hoops - farm enough credits on lower levels until you have enough credits to eventually distinguish yourself as NOT being a lemon. 

So well I am done, I hope this has been interesting for at least a few readers out there. Kicking is an unpleasant business (sometimes for the kickER too!) - just as job interviews are. You have a very limited time to convey as much information as you can about your worthiness as a player, and sometimes you will get the boot when you dont deserve it.

Do feel free to give your comments!

Interesting read, although I don't think I took away the lesson you intended to teach with it...all I got out of it was more distaste for modern economic systems.

[Taritu]

And so you wind up with only the grinds who check off the boxes. Many of them are good players, but they are not all the good players. Unorthodox builds and playing styles don't get played, certain classes don't get used despite being viable on gold in the hands of a good player.

Economic thought of this sort is about satisficing. It does not produce excellence, it only produces slightly above average performance. It is about risk avoidance.

[paincanbefun]

great post.

i think that synthetic environments like online gaming are tailor made for observing the mechanics of choice.

in a real world environment, there is considerable noise in the form of "politeness", "embarassment" and the perception that human interactions represent long-term capital.

in an environment characterized by anonymity and disposable relationships, very little obscures the pure signal of preference as it relates to perceptions of value.

playing warcraft was like an anthropology lab and i agree that the 20 seconds you spend in the grouping lobby offers textbook insights into economics.

lol, i doubt you actually made anyone feel better, but i agree that it does make perfect sense that some risks seem unacceptable, given the availability of less risky team mates.

what i don't understand is how some people feel angry or cheated that others are not willing to risk having them as team mates.  if no one knows anything about you, why would they have a positive expectation?  clearly though, and some responses to this thread confirm this, a belief that one deserves to be trusted, despite the signal of a suspicious loadout and in advance of any proof of skill- and despite the obvious risk of a wasted half hour and consumable power-ups- is fairly common.  i don't get it.

[Terraflare]

@neurovore: While offering advice may be the nice thing to do, keep in mind that for many players that is a cost (time) as well. It is akin to the job interviewer giving the interviewee an additional 1 hour (just because he's special) to explain further his skills/motivations. Can the interviewer do this with everyone he talks to? Granted, it may be the "nice" thing to do, but then again job rejections never come with a 5 page email explaining why you are rejected - they simply come with "Thank you, please try again, we have many great candidates."

@vonSlash: Yes modern economics can seem distasteful, but do clarify, do you not believe in the theory, or do you think that the conclusion it arrives at is repulsive?

@Taritu: That's a form of perverse incentives as well - the incentive to "fit in" and be accepted by gold players leads to a narrowing of builds/styles played, which reinforces the system whereby few classes and builds are effective.

@paincanbefun: I think that happens because of another market failure. The theory assumes that all private individuals are completely aware of private information (their own ability), and are thus able to sort themselves/signal along those criteria. The trouble occurs when some players are actually unaware of how good/bad they really are, and thus are unaccepting of the "market" outcome - ie when they get rejected. For eg, if I were a self-insulated graduate, who's comparison with the rest of my peers (gamers) was a few tests (games) with a flawed grading scheme (scoreboard), I may be inclined to believe I may be a genius (exceptional player), if I scored higher in the few comparisons i made (topping scoreboards). This hence results in flawed expecations - which leads to frustration when they do not materialise. Another possible explanation (likely), is also that the lobby hosters (interviewers), kick for little real reason (N7 not at 400? no widow x? OUT) and have poor understanding of the game themselves. However, one would think that rationale people would immediately know that their interviewers are being stupid and not take offense. But they do anyway...

[Xetto]

I just dont get why people dont have freinds to play with? Are you really the only person of all your freinds that play computer games? I almost never get to do random gold games since my gamer budds get online, it removes the issue of getting kicked even with odd builds. having to endure jackasses and afkers, i can frankly say that i fail more silver games than gold, since i mostly go silver when i go with randoms.

[Jobasha]

Terraflare wrote...

However, one would think that rationale people would immediately know that their interviewers are being stupid and not take offense. But they do anyway...

Well said.

Modifié par Jobasha, 01 mai 2012 - 09:46 .

[M A F I A]

scheherazade wrote...

Bronze is effortless.
Silver only requires moderate attention towards the later waves.
How much is that kind of 'experience' really helping a player?
It's just holding them back.

-scheherazade

If a gold enemy kills a level 20 with all health bonuses so fast, how FASTER a level 1 is killed in gold? The only way to prevent that is to make good use of covers, know when and where to shoot and in general how to fend yourself.
Besides it's not all about "health" at level 20 you have ALL powers maxed out (combo anyone?) while at level 1 you can barely spit (if you are a caster) and all you can count on his your trusted weapon and your ability with it, at least until you reach a decent level.

[InquisJon]

Hmmmm another post about kicking!. I was kicked from a silver game on firebase white, geth, silver! N7 rating 1700+. I play silver for a laugh when friends are not online and then play gold. On xbox we have only really one rule..................A MIC. Have made some good friends and have seen under N7 100's do well in gold. Cerb with a asari adept or vanguard with a stasis bubble and valliant makes it fairly easy to stasis and kill a phantom. People take the p*ss but when i finish a gold with over 100,000 points, die maybe a couple times i think they tend to shut up!! lol

We ask if they have a mic, if no mic then sorry but we boot. Not only are we here to play and win and get 70,000+ credits we also are here to meet new gamers. If we play reaper gold then we would be looking for a certain loadout apart from that use what character you want, what weapons you want. Too many think that a sniper is only for a infiltrator, i would say an extra sniper is a bonus in a game even if its on a soldier or krogan (yes i have seen that).

Just play and enjoy it, play with someone lower than your N7 rank, has less weapons. No mods on............So what. As long as there is teamwork then you probably will finish the game, maybe make a new friend???

Afk players, join our game and stand there from wave one then you will find we will all quit out and submit player review and move to a new game. Get your credits legit. If you need to take a few minutes to answer a phone, door then say so down the mic and we will cover.

More speaking is needed on gold on xbox at least

Rant over!

Enjoy the game and maybe see you in the lobby

[Terraflare]

scheherazade wrote...

Bronze is effortless.
Silver only requires moderate attention towards the later waves.
How much is that kind of 'experience' really helping a player?
It's just holding them back.

-scheherazade

That is precisely the point why I wrote this post! Think about it this way - it is common knowledge that a large proportion of what you learn/work so hard for in undergraduate/graduate school becomes utterly meaningless upon starting your career. 99% of the time doctors will NEVER see that rare disease they tried so hard to remember in med school, and non-professional careers are even more so like this. Now consider that before University, a person is made to go through (on average) 10-12 years of basic/foundational education, that one may argue is not very helpful at all when taking a big picture view. For example, I have all but forgotten the basics physics concepts i learnt in high school, and the obscure quotes I was forced to learn for literature exams. 

Does this mean I should not have been made to go through them at all? Did this education "hold me back"? Many academics understand that education is simply a very very costly, time consuming and expensive signalling instrument. Years are long and work is hard because this sieves out the people who dont really want to try. Whether you do a engineering course, a degree in Middle Eastern history, or an Economics course, rarely matters to employers (bar professional requirements). Employers are MUCH more keen to know if the person they hire is of LOW or HIGH quality, which can only be signalled by "jumping through the hoops" and obtaining that top degree. Is a person with a top degree neccessarily more capable than one with a middle degree? No. But on average, he will be. If the middle guy was actually high quality, why does he only have a middle degree? It would take time for me to find out, time that I can save by simply rejecting middle guy and picking top guy.

[Veil_of_Maya]

I gave up reading as my brain couldn't process it.

[Jayleia]

[quote]Lawli wrote...

And I'll have fun, even if its a wave 3 fail
[/quote]


that really depends on what value you place on time. some people really just have time for 2-3 games and dont want to get boggled down in a 30min fail run.

[/quote]

I understand, time value of money, and the money value of time...but I'm not here to be a min-maxer to move powers around to get that 1 extra DPS out of my build, I'm here to have fun.  That said, if I'm farming FBW, I've got a human or Salarian engineer, a Tempest with Disruptor ammo, and there WILL be tech bursts.

If I'm playing random golds and silvers, god knows what I'm bringing, soldiers, adepts, maybe even a sentinel, doubt I'll ever bring a vanguard past bronze.  And I'll only bring infiltrator if I want to use a sniper (somehow EVERY enemy knows my exact position AND velocity at ALL times even if I've cloaked and ran across the map)

[quote]Deucetipher wrote...

Would I be correct is assuming CoH is a fusion of MoH and CoD?  I hadn't seen that particular abbreviation before.

[/quote]

Nup.  City of Heroes, not a pure MP game like this, but an MMORPG