74 réponses à ce sujet

[Kronner]

 

JaegerBane wrote...

I actually agree with this, I just didn't understand how you were justifying ignoring DPS but basing the argument on just getting headshots. You're right in that if you're purely going for headshots then the extra damage will be redundant, but going for headshots is not something that is realistically going to happen all the time. In that situation, extra damage that you can use if need be is a lot more useful than having more rounds, unless you;re using it all the time.

But yeah, The Paladin isn't that far ahead of the Carnifex. It's just 200k doesn't mean much so you might as well bite the bullet (no pun intended).

 

I am not ignoring DPS. Paladin > Carnifex against heavy targets. I think I wrote this many times already. Against common enemies, Carnifex is just as good, or better, if you are a good shot, because DPS is largely irrelevant against these trash enemies. And yes, Paladin is well worth the 200k.

Dapper Chimp wrote...

@ Kronner - "How about you put it into context. Paper DPS are just that...paper DPS.In the actual game, the extra damage Paladin does is not beneficial in most cases (assuming you are a good shot)."

Followed by several more posts that ignored specific examples that I provided. And a post that flip-flopped on whether or not weapons had damage bonuses. And another that speculates that multiple weapons is cut-content that somehow shipped with the finished game.

Most cases. Read that again. Most cases.

Guess what enemy types you will encounter the most? Yes, the ones that can be 1shot or 2shot killed (this is where the extra Paladin damage is useless - due to either low health+no shield (one shot kill with either pistol) or shield gate (part of Paladin's damage is ignored)).

I said right from the start that Paladin IS better than Carnifex. But not by much. Why? Because the tough enemies are scarce in the campaign. If you use Pistol/Paladin/Carnifex as a tool to destroy heavily armored targets, then obviously Paladin is better than Carnifex. If you use it as a general weapon, Carnifex is just as good most of the time.

And LOL at "speculates that multiple weapons is cut-content that somehow shipped with the finished game. "
I said MAYBE the ME2-like feature where rapid fire weapons have bonus damage multiplier was cancelled. Because there is NO bonus, despite the fact that loading screens suggest using SMGs against shields.

Modifié par Kronner, 30 avril 2012 - 09:24 .

[Dapper Chimp]

Having been someone that questioned the value of a 200,000 heavy pistol, I can relate. However, I can tell you that killing a Brute with 4 bullets is game-changing experience.

And FYI, the Carnifex does 35% less damage than the Paladin.

[JaegerBane]

Dapper Chimp wrote...

Having been someone that questioned the value of a 200,000 heavy pistol, I can relate. However, I can tell you that killing a Brute with 4 bullets is game-changing experience.

Indeed.

That said, to be honest, I actually think the 200k price tag, in some ways, actually works in the Paladin's favour. it basically means that with a bit of discipline you can buy it very early in the game - same goes for the other Spectre guns. Carnifex maybe free but you don't get it until over 50% into the game.

[Dapper Chimp]

I learned after my first NG+; only upgrade the weapons that will be used and don't pay for weapon mods.

Paying 200k for some extra firepower against Brutes, Banshees, and Ravagers might now seem like a good investment but areas where you encounter multiples of each (i.e. Horizon, Tuchanka, Earth) - the value becomes obvious.

Granted, there are more of the other types of enemies, but you aren't going after them with only a Carnifex either. My soldier carries the N7 Valkyrie and the Paladin. The Paladin may not get used as much, but when it does, I'm very glad to have it.

[goofyomnivore]

On a power class like the Sentinel it doesn't really matter what weapon you pick. The Paladin has a bit more utility, but it costs 200k credits and isn't that much better than a Carnifex, but you don't get a Carnifex until after Tuchanka, you can probably get a Paladin before Tuchanka ends if you save your money.

[capn233]

"Damage is quantized." I am stealing a concept relating to discreet energy levels and photons in chemistry and physics. A quanta is simply a discreet amount.

Keeping it relevant, the Carnifex or Paladin applies single shots with sets amounts of damage. Those are the quanta. If the Carnifex does 345 damage per shot, that is what it does. Firing multiple times does multiples of that amount. Paladin is something like 438.

Enemies have discreet levels of health. If you have enemies that that have 500 health, it doesn't matter whatsoever that the Paladin does more damage per shot or that it does more theoretical DPS, it takes 2 shots from either weapon to kill them. And because rate of fire and accuracy are identical for either weapon, you are not more effective with the Paladin despite something like a 44dps advantage. In fact the argument could be made that the Paladin is worse because you have to reload more often killing these enemies.

In game, most enemies have more than double either weapon's damage as base on Insanity, but of course headshots and other weapon damage bonuses will modify your number. The logic remains the same however. If it takes the same number of shots to kill a certain enemy with either, how is the Paladin better? You can't apply the extra damage (overkill) from that Marauder to the next one.  What you should be focusing on is shots to kill, which is not the same as DPS, although it is sort of related.  As enemy health approaches infinity, then pure DPS is a much better predictor of which weapon will actually kill faster.

This is a separate discussion from Shield Gating, which is marginally important on these weapons, as neither does more damage than any base shield on Insanity. I say marginally important because it is a factor, but not nearly as much as compared to something like the Widow or Javelin with Infiltrator bonuses.  And Brutes are a bad example because they really aren't a protected enemy.  They simply have "armor health" for a 50pt damage reduction per shot.  They do of course have armored plates, but those count as cover and work with the cover penetration damage reduction mechanic.  There is no gating.  Gating is relevant on enemies that have more than one type of "health."

And this is somewhat academic anyway. It will depend on what weapon damage bonuses you have, ammo powers, etc. That really should push towards Paladin a bit if you can reduce the numbers of shots to various enemies, you can move on to the next faster. The catch is that your squad is doing damage, your powers are doing damage, so it is unclear what the "average health" of an enemy you engage is actually going to be and whether the reduced clip capacity versus extra damage per shot is going to be worthwhile.

If you simply show that certain enemies do indeed usually take a shot or two less from a Paladin, and in which situations, you will improve the argument for that weapon.  Someone in another thread was stating that he could 2 shot a Centurion with the Paladin, whereas it took 3 with the Carnifex.  That is a tangible advantage for Paladin.  It won't always be true due to health scaling and various bonuses, but it is an example.

Modifié par capn233, 30 avril 2012 - 11:07 .

[Dapper Chimp]

Yes, in a normal difficulty game there is little point in killing a 500 hp enemy with 600 dmg gun. However, level 60 on Insanity is a different story. The numbers I've seen kicked around in the MP threads show health, armor, barriers numbers north of 10k.

I don't think we need to break out the fancy math to show that Gun A with +35% dmg advantage over Gun B is a smart choice. Keep in mind that we aren't talking about plinking at empty cans either. The encounters where the Paladin shines are ones where you are being swamped by multiple boss-type characters and being able to kill something quickly is definitely a bonus.

[capn233]

Dapper Chimp wrote...

Yes, in a normal difficulty game there is little point in killing a 500 hp enemy with 600 dmg gun. However, level 60 on Insanity is a different story. The numbers I've seen kicked around in the MP threads show health, armor, barriers numbers north of 10k.

That is way high.

Standard enemies have more like 1100 or so base health up to around maybe 1200, while the low tier shielded enemies have about that in shields and health layers.

For instance, Cerberus Assault Trooper starts with 1125 health on Insanity and ends with 1687.

Husk is the least with 618 health early.

The Atlas has the most health and shield, and it is ~11k/11k early and ~16k/16k late.

And Gold MP has higher health and shield numbers than Insanity actually.

Modifié par capn233, 01 mai 2012 - 01:27 .

[Dapper Chimp]

"The Atlas has the most health and shield, and it is ~11k/11k early and ~16k/16k late."

This is more the 10k, correct?

[capn233]

Dapper Chimp wrote...

"The Atlas has the most health and shield, and it is ~11k/11k early and ~16k/16k late."

This is more the 10k, correct?

Are you serious?

Of course it is, but most of the common enemies you run into have a total of around 1100 to 3000 total health and shields.

You fight a total of 10 Atlases in SP if you know what you are doing in Cerberus HQ and don't let them hijack more.  That is with Ashes.  You can easily be in an Atlas yourself against 2 of those 10.  How many Assault Troopers do you think you fight?  Is the number of shots to take down an Atlas all that pertinent?

Modifié par capn233, 01 mai 2012 - 03:30 .

[Dapper Chimp]

capn233, I think we could make a lot of progress if you could make just a little more effort to actually read my posts. 

 "Yes, in a normal difficulty game there is little point in killing a 500 hp enemy with 600 dmg gun. However, level 60 on Insanity is a different story. The numbers I've seen kicked around in the MP threads show health, armor, barriers numbers north of 10k.

I don't think we need to break out the fancy math to show that Gun A with +35% dmg advantage over Gun B is a smart choice. Keep in mind that we aren't talking about plinking at empty cans either. The encounters where the Paladin shines are ones where you are being swamped by multiple boss-type characters and being able to kill something quickly is definitely a bonus."

Modifié par Dapper Chimp, 01 mai 2012 - 04:18 .

[Dapper Chimp]

Dapper Chimp wrote...

capn233, I think we could make a lot of progress if you could make just a little more effort to actually read my posts. 

 "Yes, in a normal difficulty game there is little point in killing a 500 hp enemy with 600 dmg gun. However, level 60 on Insanity is a different story. The numbers I've seen kicked around in the MP threads show health, armor, barriers numbers north of 10k.

I don't think we need to break out the fancy math to show that Gun A with +35% dmg advantage over Gun B is a smart choice. Keep in mind that we aren't talking about plinking at empty cans either. The encounters where the Paladin shines are ones where you are being swamped by multiple boss-type characters and being able to kill something quickly is definitely a bonus."

You are referencing Atlases, but I guarantee you there are twice that many Brutes. Add up all the Ravager, Brutes, Banshees, Harvesters, Atlases, Primes and then ask yourself if it's worth it. I get that Atlases hold the top spot, but they are not the only enemies with >10k points of health/barriers/armor/whatever.

I'm starting to think that both you and Kronner are intentionally being obtuse.

[goofyomnivore]

Brutes and Ravagers die really quick. I'd hardly consider them boss-type characters.

Outside of the final mission you rarely encounter mass amounts of anything with lots of hp. You only have to kill four Harvesters the whole game, and two are on the final mission. Outside of the Ardat Yakshi monastery, you see like two Banshees on Thessia and one at Sanctuary. Atlas Mechs are more prevalent but rarely is there more than one (TIM's base? maybe). Geth Prime are in three missions, one with a heavy weapon and another with a turret, so really you only fight maybe three Geth Primes on your own.

Maybe 5% (being generous) of the mobs you fight are boss type mobs. That is very small amount in a 20 hour game.

Powers are so powerful in this game about the only time you would notice the Paladin's added damage is if you played a Soldier. Every other class the damage between the Paladin, Carnifex and Valiant will be a non factor since weaving it in between powers will lead to the same kill speed maybe + or - a second or two.

Modifié par strive, 01 mai 2012 - 06:03 .

[Dapper Chimp]

Call them boss-type or not, Brutes can one-hit kill you and there are at least three encounters (that I can think of off the top of my head) where they come at you en masse. They may "die really quick" on lower difficulties, but these can be challenging fights on Insanity.

Re: Harvesters, I'm pretty sure you fight 3 on Tuchanka, 2 on Thessia, and 2 more on Earth. Again, that's off the top of my head.

Re: Banshees, the encounters you mention are all mob fights with exception of one.

Again, taking your dear, sweet time while casually taking bullets might be an option on lower difficulties, but trying to fight off a Banshee and three Brutes (Horizon) or a Banshee, 4 Marauders, and at least half a dozen Cannibals (Thessia) is tough. When lots of crossfire means having to stick to cover, and the most dangerous thing on the field can biotic charge you and finish you off with a one-hit kill, time is kinda important.

And to your final point, perhaps Paladin is only useful to people dumb enough to play Soldier (*raises his hand*). That means at least one class might find this info helpful.

Modifié par Dapper Chimp, 01 mai 2012 - 06:51 .

[Kronner]

Dapper Chimp wrote...

Call them boss-type or not, Brutes can one-hit kill you and there are at least three encounters (that I can think of off the top of my head) where they come at you en masse. They may "die really quick" on lower difficulties, but these can be challenging fights on Insanity.

They die real quick on Insanity. I did not even play lower difficulties in ME3 yet. But I agree that Paladin is an excellent choice for taking down armor quickly.

Modifié par Kronner, 01 mai 2012 - 07:10 .

[goofyomnivore]

Call them boss-type or not, Brutes can one-hit kill you and there are at least three encounters (that I can think of off the top of my head) where they come at you en masse. They may "die really quick" on lower difficulties, but these can be challenging fights on Insanity.

I play on Insanity. The added stopping power you get from the Paladin is a placebo at best on anything other than a Soldier, and I'd imagine it doesn't add much to a Soldier either.

The Paladin is superior versus the smallest pool of enemies you will face. Versus the bulk of the enemies it is no better than a Carnifex (I'd argue worse due to clip size).

Modifié par strive, 01 mai 2012 - 07:24 .

[Dapper Chimp]

"I'd imagine it doesn't add much to a Soldier either."

*shrugs* 75% weapon damage bonus from Adrenaline Rush on top of the 45% from Combat Mastery.

"The Paladin is superior versus the smallest pool of enemies you will face."

Hehe. Boss fights. I cannot wrap my head around the "the weapon is useless because it's only helpful against the toughest enemies in the game" argument that I've heard about 5 times now. Assault Rifle is for range and mooks. Heavy Pistol is for big scary things in armor (some of which can close in on you quickly)

[Kronner]

Dapper Chimp wrote...

I cannot wrap my head around the "the weapon is useless because it's only helpful against the toughest enemies in the game" argument that I've heard about 5 times now. Assault Rifle is for range and mooks. Heavy Pistol is for big scary things in armor (some of which can close in on you quickly)

No one said that Paladin is useless. Just that Carnifex is closer to Paladin than the extra 35% damage per shot might indicate.

[Dapper Chimp]

With the exception of weight, clip size/capacity, and DPS, they are exactly the same. I guess I'm the odd man out for thinking 35% more damage is something worth writing home about.

[AlexMBrennan]

Paladin cannot be fitted with time dilation mods, and takes up a pistol slot... so, Valiant, duh.

[capn233]

Dapper Chimp wrote...

capn233, I think we could make a lot of progress if you could make just a little more effort to actually read my posts.

I did read your posts.  You stated that the difference didn't matter when killing enemies with 600hp, but that you would be fighting enemies with north of 10,000hp on Insanity.  The truth is the common enemies have an order of magnitude less health.  It doesn't matter that a handful of enemies have over 10,000hp.

Why?

A late game Atlas has 16,875hp for shields and health.

That will take you 106 shots with a base Carnifex or 83 shots with a Paladin.  Wow that 23 shots is a lot of savings.  Except that both of those numbers of shots are absurd and well above the number of shots you have without picking up a bunch of clips.  Of course that is without bonuses of any kind.  But the BS bonuses you can get as a Sentinel aren't going to help you all that much.

As for shield gating, the gate adds one shot for each weapon.

I don't even think the Paladin is worthless.  I do think it "isn't worth the money" when you have the Carnifex, which works about the same on the common enemies.  But you have enough money to get it if you want.

edit: forgot armor reduction, fixed the numbers.

Modifié par capn233, 01 mai 2012 - 05:46 .

[JaegerBane]

Dapper Chimp wrote...
Hehe. Boss fights. I cannot wrap my head around the "the weapon is useless because it's only helpful against the toughest enemies in the game" argument that I've heard about 5 times now. Assault Rifle is for range and mooks. Heavy Pistol is for big scary things in armor (some of which can close in on you quickly)

I think its more to do with 'which weapon are you going to get the most use out of'?

To be brutally honest, I've never really had much time for the whole 'this pistol is only useful against dangerous enemies' argument either, as it's being stated purely from the perspective of min-maxing. Perhaps I'm just simple but I would have assumed that dealing with dangerous enemies the fastest would be something sought after, not a reason to dump it.

Then again, if you were arguing from, say, the perspective of whether to carry the Carnifex (itself a fine pistol that does just great, and whos main disadvantage is that it's acquired so late, and does much better as an all-round weapon) or the Scorpion (a pistol you'll be carrying for specialist purposes and hence is largely exempt from direct comparisons to the Paladin), then I can understand the argument - that you'll only realise the advantages against rare opponents.

The thing is, as with many of the anti-paladin arguments I've heard so far, there's an implicit assumption that the Paladin requires significant sacrifice to acquire. In reality, it doesn't.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 01 mai 2012 - 05:03 .

[Dapper Chimp]

capn233 wrote...
I did read your posts.  You stated that the difference didn't matter when killing enemies with 600hp, but that you would be fighting enemies with north of 10,000hp on Insanity.

Which you do. I think you're assuming that I was suggestiing that every enemy has > 10k hp, which I was not. Per your own post, they do exist and in those situations, having a powerful weapon is beneficial.

 

capn233 wrote... 
The truth is the common enemies have an order of magnitude less health.  It doesn't matter that a handful of enemies have over 10,000hp.

Why?

A late game Atlas has 16,875hp for shields and health.

That will take you 98 shots with a base Carnifex or 78 shots with a Paladin.  Wow that 20 shots is a lot of savings.  Except that both of those numbers of shots are absurd and well above the number of shots you have without picking up a bunch of clips.  Of course that is without bonuses of any kind.  But the BS bonuses you can get as a Sentinel aren't going to help you all that much.

Actually, it'd be more like 11 shots with appropriate ammo powers and Adrenaline Rush. I'm not sure what it would be with the Carnifex, as I've only crunched the numbers for the Paladin, but since ammo is limited, it seems that we should be able to agree that fewer shots is better than more shots. Strange that we cannot.

 

capn233 wrote...  
I don't even think the Paladin is worthless.  I do think it "isn't worth the money" when you have the Carnifex, which works about the same on the common enemies.  But you have enough money to get it if you want.

 Except that you can't get the Carnifex until the 2nd half of the game. *shrugs*

Again, if we're talking about something for use on common enemies, then you and Kronner are right, there's no point in having both the Carnifex and Paladin. To my point, why the heck would you be using a heavy pistol on common enemies? If you're a soldier, you'd use the assault rifle. If you're another class, you'd be using powers. 

For the millionth time - the right tool for the right job.

JaegerBane wrote...
I think its more to do with 'which weapon are you going to get the most use out of'?

 Which is fine, except to your point, you get the Carnifex fairly late in the game while the Paladin can be picked up much earlier. 

JaegerBane wrote... 
To be brutally honest, I've never really had much time for the whole 'this pistol is only useful against dangerous enemies' argument either, as it's being stated purely from the perspective of min-maxing. Perhaps I'm just simple but I would have assumed that dealing with dangerous enemies the fastest would be something sought after, not a reason to dump it.
 

 Hehe, I can't tell whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me here.

To clarify, using the Paladin to kill husks is a waste of resources. Using the Paladin to kill Nemesis or Phantoms is misuse of resources. Using the Paladin to kill Brutes, Ravagers, Banshees without their barriers, Atlases without their shields, etc would seem to be using the correct tool for the correct job.

Like you, I value being able to get the Brute cluster**** on Tuchanka done and over with, with a minimal amount of fuss. Same thing with the two unforgiving hallway fights on Horizon. Or the Brute/Harvester wave on Earth. In every encounter the objective is to kill the enemy before they can kill you. You would like that some that aids in this would have universal appeal. 

JaegerBane wrote...  
Then again, if you were arguing from, say, the perspective of whether to carry the Carnifex (itself a fine pistol that does just great, and whos main disadvantage is that it's acquired so late, and does much better as an all-round weapon) or the Scorpion (a pistol you'll be carrying for specialist purposes and hence is largely exempt from direct comparisons to the Paladin), then I can understand the argument - that you'll only realise the advantages against rare opponents.

 Agreed.

JaegerBane wrote...   
The thing is, as with many of the anti-paladin arguments I've heard so far, there's an implicit assumption that the Paladin requires significant sacrifice to acquire. In reality, it doesn't.

I'm hearing a lot of "it's not useful". 

Modifié par Dapper Chimp, 01 mai 2012 - 05:48 .

[capn233]

The Carnifex can be acquired the next mission after Citadel Coup, that is the second act.

The Paladin isn't the right tool against the big enemies though. Especially if you are Sentinel. The right tool against any of those enemies is simply "Throw," with a setup from Liara, Javik, or even Garrus or EDI.

The Paladin takes 200,000 cr to buy. At the least it prevents you from buying the Black Widow, which is better than it at killing all these big enemies you guys have been concerned with.

However, the main argument has been that it isn't worth the money, and it isn't.

Modifié par capn233, 01 mai 2012 - 05:56 .

[Dapper Chimp]

capn233 wrote...

The Carnifex can be acquired the next mission after Citadel Coup, that is the second act.

For christ's sake. There are 16 priority missions. "Citadel Coup" is number 8. The Carnifex isn't available until the second half of the game. Please nitpick this some more. 

capn233 wrote... 
The Paladin isn't the right tool against the big enemies though. Especially if you are Sentinel. The right tool against any of those enemies is simply "Throw," with a setup from Liara, Javik, or even Garrus or EDI.

I wasn't aware the Soldiers had access to "Throw". Or Vanguards. Or Engineers. Or Infiltrators. Perhaps my copy of the game is defective.

capn233 wrote...  
The Paladin takes 200,000 cr to buy. At the least it prevents you from buying the Black Widow, which is better than it at killing all these big enemies you guys have been concerned with.

I'll keep this in mind the next time I play as an Infiltrator. Or the next time I feel like carrying around a situational weapon with a weight of 200 instead of one with a weight of 35. Who needs decent cooldown times anyway?

capn233 wrote...   
However, the main argument has been that it isn't worth the money, and it isn't.

Thank for your taking the time to share your opinion.