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Why Bioware *cannot* change the ending.


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#1
Amioran

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Now that the flaming is a little subsided and maybe we can start debating seriously about things, I decided to post this thread, that explains why Bioware cannot change the ending as it is.

(This post is NOT about "Artistic Integrity", nor it tries to propose another angle from which to see the current ending. It is only about common sense and logic and it goes beyond different opinions, so we can come to a consensus; you are more then welcome to post your replies and discuss what you think about this, and I will try to reply in detail to every concern etc. but please try to be civil and respectful or I will simply ignore you).

Bioware has shipped ME3. The game has been played by many, many people and it will continue to be played (no matter what) by many others to come. Many of these same people have already finished the game and have their opinions on it, whatever it is. Some don't like the ending, some like it, some hate it, some love it. It doesn't matter where the majority stands, there are different opinions on the same, as it's perfectly fine this to happen.

Now while some of you, as individuals, can also not care about the others' opinions and would like the story to end as you prefer, Bioware cannot do the same. You, as individuals, have all the right if you want to complain and either do what in your power to have Bioware listen to your opinion, also if this opinion goes against the one of the others in practice, but Bioware (as a company that has to care for ALL of its fans, and not just some of them) cannot.

As I said, Bioware cannot. That would be like admitting that one part of the audience (those that don't like the ending) have an opinion that matters more than those that like it. It would be like admitting one part of the audience better than the other. Morover this decision will be based on purely arbritary parameters; if there would be reliable and fool-proof statistics (admitting they would ever exists) of what kind of people like/dislike the ending, either if morally questionable, they could base the decision on some kind of basis (as for example if those that don't like the ending are of a certain kind of demographic, or they have an higher IQ or similar idiocies). It would be still completely inappropriate and bad, but as it is now it's even worse, because the decision would be done on completely arbitrary parameters, i.e. they would have to base who is "better" and who is "right" based only on the kind of opinon they have, a purely arbitrary decision, since opinion is purely subjective.

Either if the ending was really "badly written" (questionable, but whatever) this is not, by this point, anymore a plausible parameter (as explained before) on which to base the decision, because also if it is really so, some that now like the ending as it is are tied emotionally to the same, no matter what. Just like if you have a dog from an year and you then discover that it has a genetic disease, a dog breeder cannot propose to change the dog to you just because it has a problem;  you would obviously react not too well to the thing.

Given this, it is obvious that by this point Bioware cannot change the ending for purely objective motives. You, as an individual can also not show tolerance versus others, but Bioware has to consider all the users as having the same importance one another.

EDIT: The thing, then, doesn't work in both ways. Some of you (usually the most determined on disliking the ending) can think that not changing the ending would be anyway frustrating a part of the audience, but the two arguments are completely different. The product shipped in a certain way, the ending is already as it is. In the case of changing an ending now that would mean doing an action that annhiliates a part of the audience, that's completely different than simply having people dislike what you did to begin with. The product of Bioware at the moment of shipping already generated a shift in opinion, what would create an arbitrary decision on that same different opinion would be doing an active action that prefers one point of view to the other, that's completely different from having people like/dislike the product you produced from the start. If you dislike a product it doesn't mean that the authors are actively frustrating your opinion, it just means that they produced something you don't like. A thing completely different is, instead, if the authors do an active action to frustrate what you think.

The only thing they can do to try to please those who don't like the ending is what they are doing, i.e. expand the ending there is already to provide more closure (a thing many are complaining about). Expecting something more would just mean that you pretend something that cannot happen, and not only for technical motivations (as it can be "artistic intergrity" or the fact that the ending has a theme behind that many don't know) but, primarily, just for the sake's and respect of the audience in its totality.

I will add another thing about this: also if this solution can seem the best of both worlds given what I said (and so a move of Bioware has done just for their personal end), this move is, in fact, anyway a gamble because it risks in any case to alienate some users that like the ending exactly as it is (without the full closure). So Bioware it is actually risking this to please a part of the audience, and this is not at all "not listening" because, if you think about it, it's always a risky move from their point of view. They can end up not pleasing nor one nor the other spectrums of the audience. So, please, consider what I say here. You insist they don't care but what they are doing shows the exact contrary.

To finish I want to reply in detail to some of the most used examples of "Changing the work it has been done before so there's nothing wrong with it" to let you see that the things are not exactly as you put them to be:


- Sherlock Holmes, Doyle: I usually laugh inside myself every time people quote this example because they are actually providing proof of the opposite point they are trying to make. Apart the fact that resurrecting a character is not properly the same thing as changing the ending (because the former ending remains the same, you just add to it; it is true that you indirectly change it but it is different than a direct change in the sense that you can decide if to go a route or the other) then Doyle was harshly criticized by critics and fellow artists for the inconsistency and for alienating a part of the audience in doing this. So much, in fact, that even today his name is not considered well by fellow writers just for what he did, and he is quoted many times just for the contrary evidence of what people want to prove it: i.e. of the BAD it happens when you alienate a part of your readers.

- Fallout 3: the ending has NOT changed as people want Bioware to change the ending of ME. It is just a sort of "expansion" as it can be the EC, because the outcomes are exactly the same, you get only to have some more decisions on them. The ending has not changed at all, the same things happens in their context, the difference is only on the execution of the same, nothing more.

- Alan Wake: same thing. While many people called the ending a cliff-hanger it has not changed. The authors just expanded on the same and provided more closure, just this. Nothing different than what's happening with the EC for Bioware.

- Great Expectations, Dickens: he never changed anything at all for the audience. The endings were already decided to be two.

Modifié par Amioran, 01 mai 2012 - 08:30 .


#2
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Okay, #1, separate that up.

And #2, interesting. Interesting.

Modifié par EternalAmbiguity, 30 avril 2012 - 06:09 .


#3
FJVP

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My eyes are bleeding.

EDIT: You are ignoring the fact that if they do decide to change the ending it will have to be through DLC, so the people that already like the ending have the choice to simply not download the altered ending and keep the one they liked. It's not like bioware would force them to download the DLC just so they could play the game, so I don't see why people keep bringing up this "issue".

Modifié par FJVP, 30 avril 2012 - 06:22 .


#4
turian councilor Knockout

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Artistic Integrity bullsh*t !

#5
Daddy555

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artistic integrity LOL nothing about that ending resembled any form of art ive ever known... a turd can not be polished and is not art for dam sure

#6
Naughty Bear

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Daddy555 wrote...

artistic integrity LOL nothing about that ending resembled any form of art ive ever known... a turd can not be polished and is not art for dam sure


But the turd can be smoothed over giving it a nice sleek look.

#7
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+1 OP, two people already misread:

"THIS POST IS NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT ABOUT ARTIST INTEGRITY"

Modifié par EternalAmbiguity, 30 avril 2012 - 06:15 .


#8
turian councilor Knockout

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Daddy555 wrote...

artistic integrity LOL nothing about that ending resembled any form of art ive ever known... a turd can not be polished and is not art for dam sure

pls tell Bioware that and get it in their heads then i'm happy but they can't swallow their stupid pride anyways.

#9
turian councilor Knockout

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

+1 OP, two people already misread:

"THIS POST IS NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT ABOUT ARTIST INTEGRITY"

Does it rly matter what the topic is about, bioware already said that's why besides i don't care to read through all that damn text.

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 30 avril 2012 - 06:17 .


#10
ghostbooty

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It was all an illusion. For those that can't stand the ending, just think of it that way and it makes the whole thing better. I didn't like the ending, but so what. It doesn't matter. Opinions are basically worthless, unless it is from a person with the power to make actual changes happen. For the sake of sanity and peace we should all let it go. Even if the "official" ending was meant to be literal, it was clearly tied to some obscure details and was likely meant to be interpreted in different ways. Use your own imagination and let it rest.

-Matt C.-

#11
abaris

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But it's really simple.

If Bioware expects to lose money now or with future franchises, they will change the ending.
If not, they won't.

That's all there is to it. And I don't need the largest part of a page to get to that conclusion. It's all about corporate life after all. And lofty arguments don't count when it comes to economical expectations.

#12
Amioran

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turian councilor Knockout wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

+1 OP, two people already misread:

"THIS POST IS NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT ABOUT ARTIST INTEGRITY"

Does it rly matter what the topic is about, bioware already said that's why besides i don't care to read through all that damn text.


Artistic Integrity is another aspect of the point. I just didn't want to go there to not start a flame war.

The AI motivation is perfectly plausible (also if you think the contrary, usually becaue you don't know of what you are talking about) but this post doesn't talk about it, because it is not a necessary concept to understand why the ending CANNOT be changed.

So, please, don't try to twist the post to what you prefer just so you can start trolling and make the thread close because you don't like the truth written there (it is against your case so it must be bad, isn't it?).

#13
Daddy555

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bioware hide behind artistic intefrity then contridict themself by bringing out a DLC ... and since when were games ****ing art anyway .

#14
SalsaDMA

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I disagree.

Just because there are some people that claim they like what you made, despite you knew it was atrociously bad (and let's be honest, if Bioware doesn't know how bad their ending was, they don't really deserver to be making games anymore, as they would have lost the touch then) then you have no integrity towards yourself. (there's that word.. I know...)

As is, as long as Bioware lets the game, and thus the entire trilogy, be so marred by the restricting noose of the dollar, I won't be part of their future customers.

There's no point in supporting a company that isn't about making quality in the area you actually go to them for. Characters and storytelling where the only real reasons to play Bioware games, and they seems to have abandoned those in favour for sexificatino of female leads, generic booring shooter action and a total disregard for continuity.

Deception, as horrible a book as it was, is unfortunately a clear sign of how little actual >care< their is in the products they make in this regard. DA2 and ME3 showed this all too well too.

I have no hopes for Bioware as a quality producer anymore. They CAN fix it, but it would require a change in mentality from the company towards their own products, and that is something I can't see happening with EA holding the noose in a tight grip.

As I see it, Bioware is headed the same way as all the other companies EA ate up through its history due to this headless chase from Bioware to whereever they think they should hurry to in short term goals, which ultimately makes their customers leave them long term.

Lots of short term stuff were introduced in ME3 that weren't needed, but was done to cater to EA's vision of what the 'mass market wants'. And ultimately, the game suffered for it.

#15
zninjazzero

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Amioran wrote...

It doesn't matter where the majority stands, there are different opinions on the same, as it's perfectly fine this to happen.
...
As I said, Bioware cannot. That would be like admitting that one part of the audience (those that don't like the ending) have an opinion that matters more than those that like it. It would be like admitting one part of the audience better than the other. 

Either if the ending was really "badly written" (questionable, but whatever) this is not, by this point, anymore a plausible parameter (as explained before) on which to base the decision, because also if it is really so, some that now like the ending as it is are tied emotionally to the same, no matter what. 
...
- Sherlock Holmes, Doyle: I usually laugh inside myself every time people quote this example because they are actually providing proof of the opposite point they are trying to make. Apart the fact that resurrecting a character is not properly the same thing as changing the ending (because the former ending remains the same, you just add to it; it is true that you indirectly change it but it is different than a direct change in the sense that you can decide if to go a route or the other) then Doyle was harshly criticized by critics and fellow artists for the inconsistency and for alienating a part of the audience in doing this. So much, in fact, that even today his name is not considered well by fellow writers just for what he did, and he is quoted many times just for the contrary evidence of what people want to prove it: i.e. of the BAD it happens when you alienate a part of your readers.

- Fallout 3: the ending has NOT changed as people want Bioware to change the ending of ME. It is just a sort of "expansion" as it can be the EC, because the outcomes are exactly the same, you get only to have some more decisions on them. The ending has not changed at all, the same things happens in their context, the difference is only on the execution of the same, nothing more.


Alright, so first: It most certainly does matter where the majority stand.  This isn't a matter of two equal groups arguing.  By all measures, the people who dislike the ending vastly, vastly outnumber the people who liked it.  And you're saying Bioware shouldn't make a decision based on a rather small percentage of their fanbase, rather than make a different decision that would upset a much larger portion of their fanbase.  You present a false equivalency.  Bioware should be trying to please the largest portion of their fanbase, not the smallest.  That's a) good business and B) good manners.  You cannot treat every faction of an audience as the same.  That makes no logical sense.

Second:The ending is badly written. That is not questionable.

Third: Sherlock Holmes.  You bring up how critics and contemporaries thought he sucked for changing his ending, but neglect to bring up the response of the fans that demanded Sherlock be brought back in the first place.  Critics and fans are not the same thing (and we're seeing that dichotomy even more nowadays).

Fourth: Fallout 3.  You really shouldn't bring up Fallout 3.  The ending of Falluot 3 WAS changed, not simply expanded.  The Lone Wanderer sacrificed himself for no reason in a situation where he should have questioned the logic of his decision.  Just like the end of ME3.  Then Bethesda added DLC that made it so that the Lone Wanderer could survive, or even make a sensible decision about how to deal with the situation instead of killing himself senselessly.  Fallout 3 will always and can only be support for changing the ending to ME3. You cannot twist it to mean something different.

#16
turian councilor Knockout

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Amioran wrote...

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

+1 OP, two people already misread:

"THIS POST IS NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT ABOUT ARTIST INTEGRITY"

Does it rly matter what the topic is about, bioware already said that's why besides i don't care to read through all that damn text.


Artistic Integrity is another aspect of the point. I just didn't want to go there to not start a flame war.

The AI motivation is perfectly plausible (also if you think the contrary, usually becaue you don't know of what you are talking about) but this post doesn't talk about it, because it is not a necessary concept to understand why the ending CANNOT be changed.

So, please, don't try to twist the post to what you prefer just so you can start trolling and make the thread close because you don't like the truth written there (it is against your case so it must be bad, isn't it?).

I have no interest in trolling and you don't know if it's the truth either only Bioware knows that, i don't believe either way so take it as you wish.

#17
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SalsaDMA wrote...

As is, as long as Bioware lets the game, and thus the entire trilogy, be so marred by the restricting noose of the dollar, I won't be part of their future customers.


abaris wrote...

But it's really simple.

If Bioware expects to lose money now or with future franchises, they will change the ending.
If not, they won't.

That's all there is to it. And I don't need the largest part of a page to get to that conclusion. It's all about corporate life after all. And lofty arguments don't count when it comes to economical expectations.

 

So I guess if Bioware caves and changes things just for the almighty dollar, you definitely won't be playing their games anymore? Interesting.

#18
Amioran

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abaris wrote...
That's all there is to it. And I don't need the largest part of a page to get to that conclusion. It's all about corporate life after all. And lofty arguments don't count when it comes to economical expectations.


1. It is not different than what other companies does, so it is completely irrelevant.

2. Also if you think people that dislike the ending are the majority that is a totally unbased affirmation since there's no way to know for sure, one way or the other. So do you pretend a company should base an "economical targeting" based on what? Poor assumption?

3. Given #3 all you said above makes no sense at all just because a company cannot risk to lose money based on assumptions. Since they don't know the reality (these forums, YouTube, Metacritic etc. are certainly proof of anything at all) and they care about money, doing a move as that without certainity would just risk losing everything.

4. Alienating a part of the user base is never a good thing, neither if it is minimal when you do so on a point that's purely arbitrary (as making the decision based on pure opinion; if you read the thread you understand what I mean by this). So, a company that, as you say, care about money would never do this willingly.

5. Thank you for not taking the time to read anything I wrote and just pretending you had a point on it, I appreaciate it.

#19
Ravensword

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

As is, as long as Bioware lets the game, and thus the entire trilogy, be so marred by the restricting noose of the dollar, I won't be part of their future customers.


abaris wrote...

But it's really simple.

If Bioware expects to lose money now or with future franchises, they will change the ending.
If not, they won't.

That's all there is to it. And I don't need the largest part of a page to get to that conclusion. It's all about corporate life after all. And lofty arguments don't count when it comes to economical expectations.

 

So I guess if Bioware caves and changes things just for the almighty dollar, you definitely won't be playing their games anymore? Interesting.


Fight the power!

#20
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zninjazzero wrote...

Alright, so first: It most certainly does matter where the majority stand.  This isn't a matter of two equal groups arguing.  By all measures, the people who dislike the ending vastly, vastly outnumber the people who liked it.  And you're saying Bioware shouldn't make a decision based on a rather small percentage of their fanbase, rather than make a different decision that would upset a much larger portion of their fanbase.  You present a false equivalency.  Bioware should be trying to please the largest portion of their fanbase, not the smallest.  That's a) good business and B) good manners.  You cannot treat every faction of an audience as the same.  That makes no logical sense.

Second:The ending is badly written. That is not questionable.


1. Give us some scientific proof and that might be valid. Until then, though, it isn't.

2. The only thing truly "bad" about the ending was the lack of exposition. Nothing else was bad about it. That is not questionable.:wizard:

#21
Degs29

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Amioran wrote...
As I said, Bioware cannot. That would be like admitting that one part of the audience (those that don't like the ending) have an opinion that matters more than those that like it. It would be like admitting one part of the audience better than the other.


Some (many) would say they have already done that by giving us three similar endings and not responding the way many want them to to calls for more diverse ones.

#22
XTR3M3

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I don't think it had to be one or the other. They could have done an alternate ending without jeopardizing their artistic integrity. true ME fans like more choices. BioWare doesn't have to change the ending, they could have just added more options.

more options doesn't hurt the current ending. Alternate endings are common for movies as well. the ones I have on disk with that option let you choose or watch the alternate in the bonus features section.

#23
abaris

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...


So I guess if Bioware caves and changes things just for the almighty dollar, you definitely won't be playing their games anymore? Interesting.


Have I said that?

OK, even though you're obviously baiting and not expecting an answer, I hand it to you anyway: If they're producing another game interesting me, I will buy it. If they don't, I won't.

As simple as that.

And since it's the obvious truth, they will react to the almighty dollar and not the fanrage from either side. If one side happens to influence their revenue, they will react.

#24
Amioran

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turian councilor Knockout wrote...
I have no interest in trolling and you don't know if it's the truth either only Bioware knows that, i don't believe either way so take it as you wish.


The truth of what? All I said it's pretty obvious. If you did read it you would understand that there's nothing about "it's the truth/it isn't the truth" in it.

That you cannot alienate a part of your user base on opinion is just common sense, nothing more. It doesn't take a genius to understand it, nor an "evidence that this is what Bioware is thinking" because it's obvious (as it's obvious that if you have to go to work you will have to wake-up; there's nothing about speculation here).

#25
Amioran

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XTR3M3 wrote...

I don't think it had to be one or the other. They could have done an alternate ending without jeopardizing their artistic integrity. true ME fans like more choices. BioWare doesn't have to change the ending, they could have just added more options.

more options doesn't hurt the current ending. Alternate endings are common for movies as well. the ones I have on disk with that option let you choose or watch the alternate in the bonus features section.


There are people (and many, in fact the majority - for what we can see on the trend, naturally we cannot be sure - of those that don't like the ending) that don't want the context of the ending as it is (as the Starchild) at all. In doing what you say they would still alienate those users.

The best way (and more logic, from Bioware point of view) is to simply have the thing to remain as it is now.

Modifié par Amioran, 30 avril 2012 - 06:35 .