510 réponses à ce sujet

[Amioran]

slyguy200 wrote...

Look Amioran, your argument is all a bunch of ad-hominem filled garbage.
don't bother responding and wasting your time, i will not be persuaded otherwise and i am very doubtful that anyone else will.

As you want.

But as always I lost time to reply to the things in detail, and you just lost 1 second to say "it is not so because I say it and all you say is garbage".

Ok, I suppose this is the way things must be with you.

You simply cannot pretend something that cannot happen.

[PluralAces]

Bioware needs to be fix everything after the Cerberus mission...it would be the only way to really change it....

[abaris]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

They wanted this to go down like 2001 a Space Odyssy and have a cult ending. Nobody has described it in such terms or said that it was in keeping with the philosophy of the story.

I repeatedly said in different threads, they wanted to pull a Kubrick. But Kubrick, a real artist, took an average of five years to create his stories.

[Battlepope190]

They can and they will if they know what's good for business.

[Amioran]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...
You do realise you're saying Bioware should value the opinion of those who liked the games ending over those who didn't; right? 

Have you read ALL the post, because it seem to me you didn't, considering that there's an edit that reply just to this point specifically.

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...
Also, they just changed a ME book because it was inconsistent and a few people complained.

As I said before I have nothing against change itself. All I say is that in this case the change would be based on arbitrary parameters.

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...
Plus, you're acting as though there is an enormous body of people who really enjoyed the ending for the reasons bioware wanted. They are an extreme minority.

And who told you so? The people here in this forum are about the 0.01% of all the people who bought ME3, and so they are those of YouTube etc. Morover it is obvious that those that lose the time to post are usually those against a thing, that's human nature.

Given this, how can you be sure of what you say?

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...
Also, Bioware HAS, somewhat conceded to pressure publically and has made the extended cut DLC; which they would not have done if they were concerned with offending those who loved the ending n think its the greatest thing since AI's ending.   

They just expanded on the ending giving the same more closure. It is not a decision that requires a revolution for them to decide to do so, but surely they did listen to those complaining, yes.

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...
Never mind that I've not seen a single person give any defence whatsoever aside from being vague or 'he got a good send off' which clearly wasn't the reaction Bioware wanted.

I've done so in many threads in the past, so not all people act that way.

[Atakuma]

Battlepope190 wrote...

They can and they will if they know what's good for business.

Except that they aren't and have repeatedly said that they wont. I'm pretty sure they have a better Idea of their own business than you do.

Modifié par Atakuma, 01 mai 2012 - 04:12 .

[CerberusCheerleader]

Amioran wrote...

If you don't like something it's obvious that you would prefer the company not lose time on it for something you could like more, isn't it?

And there is your problem.

There is no reason to assume that anyone who likes the current ending is any less likely to also like a new ending than an ending-hater. None. Or are you seriously telling me that you would prefer some SP dlc featuring a less-than-important sidemission (say, retake omega 4 or something)? I repeat: there is no reason to assume that you will like an ending dlc less than anyone else. Now, if we could get that into your head we would be done here 

[Mass effect 2 forever]

PluralAces wrote...

Bioware needs to be fix everything after the Cerberus mission...it would be the only way to really change it....

I wouldn't go that far. I would say that until after Anderson the game is fine. A lot of people have said they don't understand what Illusive Man was doing there but you are told on his station by the Prothean VI that he has already went to the citadel and told the reapers about the catalyst. Given the labyrinth of tunnels its not inconceivable, especially considering the scale of their coup, that they have a hidden base inside the citadel. Dialogue and setting is plot convenience past that and a forgivable vice. Saren monologued when he had no reason to; so does the Illusive Man.  

[Amioran]

Flashing Steel wrote...
Condescending snark

You, OP seem to have a very
hard time simply saying ‘I think we must agree to disagree’ - there’s no
justification for the vitriol you’ve been spewing at others.

Good job on taking all those sentence without the context and without considering at all what happened before.

Everything seems so futile as of now. I wanted to start a thread where we could debate specifically about the things in the original post, and it did go all another way.

I suppose this is how it should be here.

[translationninja]

[quote]Amioran wrote...

[quote]Flashing Steel wrote...
Condescending snark
-snip-
quote]

Good job on taking all those sentence without the context and without considering at all what happened before.

Everything seems so futile as of now. I wanted to start a thread where we could debate specifically about the things in the original post, and it did go all another way.

I suppose this is how it should be here.


[/quote]

A little less condescension in your original post and a little humility in your self-perception would have gone a long way.

I have owned businesses for over 25 years, it took me less than 3 sentences of yours to know that you haven't because what your "analysis" of customer relations fail on so many levels they are too many to even address here.

Also, if you want to "discuss" issues, as you purport you wanted to, you may want to omit the lecturing "you people" attitude, it usually precludes all otherwise possible avenues of intellectual discourse.

[Amioran]

CerberusCheerleader wrote...
There is no reason to assume that anyone who likes the current ending is any less likely to also like a new ending than an ending-hater. None.

Let me guess, do you like the ending? I'm sure you are not.

So, given your point of view it's obvious you say this.

But, let me do an example (hoping is the right one for you), if they were going to lose time to add to Mass Effect hack and slash swordplay would you think that fine only because that's an option? Would you not prefer the time to be spent on something you like?
 
For those that like the ending and the product as it is it is obvious that changing the same it's a waste of time better spent for something more interesting for them.

CerberusCheerleader wrote...
Or are you seriously telling me that you would prefer some SP dlc featuring a less-than-important sidemission (say, retake omega 4 or something)? I repeat: there is no reason to assume that you will like an ending dlc less than anyone else. Now, if we could get that into your head we would be done here 

Certainly if I were to like the ending I would prefer a full side mission than a simple option to something I would probably not consider a good move to begin with (because I think that the game is fine as it is).

[M8DMAN]

Anyone else chuckle at the part about how ME3 will quote "continue to be played (no matter what) by many others to come."?

Because I sure did. That's like saying TOR will have more subscribers then World of Warcraft.

Modifié par M8DMAN, 01 mai 2012 - 04:20 .

[PluralAces]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

PluralAces wrote...

Bioware needs to be fix everything after the Cerberus mission...it would be the only way to really change it....

I wouldn't go that far. I would say that until after Anderson the game is fine. A lot of people have said they don't understand what Illusive Man was doing there but you are told on his station by the Prothean VI that he has already went to the citadel and told the reapers about the catalyst. Given the labyrinth of tunnels its not inconceivable, especially considering the scale of their coup, that they have a hidden base inside the citadel. Dialogue and setting is plot convenience past that and a forgivable vice. Saren monologued when he had no reason to; so does the Illusive Man.  

Not to get into an argument or to go too much into detail...but the whole citadel moving thing was silly...that should have never happened...they made ME3 too linear...and the citadel moving raised so many other questions but I dont really feel like typing everything...the citadel with a beam of light that shined down on Earth and served as a teleportation device up to the citadel made no sense either, this triolgy became a funnel with a very bad exit point....

[deatharmonic]

slyguy200 wrote...

Look Amioran, your argument is all a bunch of ad-hominem filled garbage.
don't bother responding and wasting your time, i will not be persuaded otherwise and i am very doubtful that anyone else will.

+1

[Il Divo]

Amioran wrote...

There's a different between changing a product already published after and changing some things for a product to come. Don't be naive, I'm sure you can understand why for yourself.

No difference that matters. You've still effectively told Fan A that what he wants is unimportant, otherwise you would be doing what Fan A wanted in the first place. Whether you, as the creator, claim it's because of some motivation is irrelevant. All sorts of developer decisions can be construed merely as a result of fan outcry (Ex: See romance options).  

A change as the one of the mako, either if you can not like it, it can be anyway understood because the motivations behind the change were based on some non-arbitrary concepts. It is a completely different thing when you ask a change motivated on completely arbitrary parameters as they are opinions. It is unacceptable.

Hardly. It happens all the time. Whether the developers say that they did it due to "negative feedback" or for narrative purposes or simply on a whim, the end result is the same. As a fan, I don't care that Bioware, in keeping the endings, has chosen another fan (or fans) over me. I care that they made a product I don't find entertaining.

That is your error in judgment, in assuming that what matters to people is that Bioware has lowered their value in comparison to other fans. Everyone, as soon as they enter the consumer market, realizes that they only have value in so far as they are part of a market for a product. When you're no longer a viable market, you're expendable. It's not that the Fan who liked the ending doesn't have an opinion worth hearing, it's that there's [potentially] a million more shouting him down.

 

Again, it is different in many thing. You can also be pissed but at last the motivations for doing so can stand on something (either if you dont' agree with them). Another thing is when the motivations have just because some fans require it no minding at all for others' opinions.

To which I say I really don't care. See above, the motivation of the action does not concern me. The end result does. The market is not built on principles of "all opinions are equal", it's built on satisfying the maximum desire possible. A million different products don't get made every day because people realize there isn't a sustainable market for them.

If Bioware decides to change the ending for some motive that can be fine. Another completely different thing is if they have to change the ending because a part of the audience requires it. This goes completely against opinions of others and the change will stand on purely arbitrary parameters. Why should one opinon be better than another? Whye should Bioware listen to yours and not to that of others?

One opinion is not better than another. A hundred opinions however are, because they are each backed by cash. If you think otherwise, game design will be a very rude awakening. Nothing gets made which people don't think will sell. If 99% of Bioware's market said "We hate the ending and won't buy anything until it's fixed", then Bioware's got more to worry about than their principles.

Modifié par Il Divo, 01 mai 2012 - 04:25 .

[Amioran]

translationninja wrote...
A little less condescension in your original post and a little humility in your self-perception would have gone a long way.

As I said before. I have to be civil, I have to be detailed, I have to prove something, the others naturally don't need anything of this and if I not agree to this I am the bad guy.

I understand.

translationninja wrote...
I have owned businesses for over 25 years, it took me less than 3 sentences of yours to know that you haven't because what your "analysis" of customer relations fail on so many levels they are too many to even address here.

Ok, another one that say "you are so wrong on so many levels but I will not lose time to say why".

Next?

Then thank you for your great judgment about me lacking completely the context to do the same in an objective way. I guess you do the same also at work, isn't it? Must be good judging a person from what s/he wears.

translationninja wrote...
Also, if you want to "discuss" issues, as you purport you wanted to, you may want to omit the lecturing "you people" attitude, it usually precludes all otherwise possible avenues of intellectual discourse.

Yes, yes, I have to do this, I have to do that.

You, on the contrary, have to do nothing.

Modifié par Amioran, 01 mai 2012 - 04:22 .

[MrMcDoll]

slyguy200 wrote...

Look Amioran, your argument is all a bunch of ad-hominem filled garbage.
don't bother responding and wasting your time, i will not be persuaded otherwise and i am very doubtful that anyone else will.

Thirded,
Motion carried
Amioran, by popular decree you have been voted as wrong.

You can choose to close this thread, you will be able to feel better than us ingrates that didn't understand your "mighty intellect" This will also result in all your posts being destroyed.

You can choose to try to control this thread, you will get to feel superior by spewing more rhetoric but the thread will be closed by mods. This will also result in all your posts being destroyed.

Or you can choose to synthe- no wait. your EMS is too low for that one.

[Kajan451]

Amioran wrote...

Some don't like the ending, some like it, some hate it, some love it.

I seriously would like to meet a person that actually loves that ending. Actually i extend it and say i actually want to meet someone that did like it.

There is a big gap between "being okay" with the ending and "liking" or even "loving" it. I know there are some anti-anti-ending type of guys running around who will most likely shout they love it just for shouting against those who dislike the ending, but i sincerly believe that anyone can play all 3 games, follow the series and stand there and say "It was the best possible ending" or "i loved that ending, it was befitting the triology"... i mean really say that without trying to spite someone.

Amioran wrote...

Given this, it is obvious that by this point Bioware cannot change the ending for purely objective motives. You, as an individual can also not show tolerance versus others, but Bioware has to consider all the users as having the same importance one another.

Ahh, so your saying that bioware actually has an obligation to make their game run with the same specs as ME1s specs? Because after all not doing it would basically mean they are prefering those customers with higher system specs over those who have played ME1. I mean if they do that, they'd prefer one type of customer over the other.. so they couldn't change the games specs of a Triology. Right?

And yet, they did. They went ahead and decided that some fans (those with high enough system specs) are more preferably than those that didn't make the cut.


And thats just the first place your argument falls appart, because Bioware makes these decisions all the time. They decided to go more Tactical shooter from the previous version, they decided to use "statistics" to improve the game, thus further alienating fans. They made a conscious decision to rather have the shooter crowd that the RPG crowd in their house. They even went ahead and offered some "autopilot" for the RPG section of the game, so non RPGers could focus on the tactical aspect of the game without being burdened by the RPG.

Honestly, your hole reasoning is bull.

If Bioware haddn't changed the Engine or the gameplay of the game, yes, you would have a valid point by saying they have an obligation to all of their fans equally, but since they do and they don't care about all their fans equally to beginn with, you don't have a point.

Amioran wrote...


- Sherlock Holmes, Doyle: I usually laugh inside myself every time people quote this example because they are actually providing proof of the opposite point they are trying to make. Apart the fact that resurrecting a character is not properly the same thing as changing the ending (because the former ending remains the same, you just add to it; it is true that you indirectly change it but it is different than a direct change in the sense that you can decide if to go a route or the other) then Doyle was harshly criticized by critics and fellow artists for the inconsistency and for alienating a part of the audience in doing this. So much, in fact, that even today his name is not considered well by fellow writers just for what he did, and he is quoted many times just for the contrary evidence of what people want to prove it: i.e. of the BAD it happens when you alienate a part of your readers.

I am a writer and i don't know anyone that thinks badly about Doyle. Actually Doyle is rather revered as the creator of Sherlok Holmes...

And yes, Doyle change the ending. Doyles ending was Holmes and Moriarty fall to their deaths. Writing another Story retconning Sherlok Holmes death does change the whole ending, even if its not changed in the actual book.

But fine... if you want a real litarary example with an ending that was actually struk from the book and then replaced with another ending at a later date and thats published to the day? How about this:

The Story of O. Its one of the most famous Erotic Novelas right after the (imho gutwrenchingly bad) works of Marquis De Sade. And about as famous as Emanuelle. It actually influanced a whole scene in the Erotic sector and shaped it, which i'd say makes it a very important Work of Art (even though i know some people probably will be hard pressed to accept erotic literature as art, but i guess others have the same problem with Videogames). This story also has opened erotic literature and pornography in many countries when it was first published back in 1960ths (actually first published 1954 in france it took a bit to reach other countries), something not many Artists can claim for themselves. It remains one of the most influential works of art in the erotic literature sector.

In the Original story O, the female protagonist, seeks permission to kill herself. Her Master grants her said permission because he grew tired of her. This ending was later changed / removed and 15 years after countless inquiries about how the story would end or rather how it shouldn't end that way, they released a new ending / addition, which is the ending you find in todays prints.

Of course i am not saying we talking Shakespear here, but its a fact that its actually a quite important work of art (even though the kind of art people rather not talk about) and its an example of a changed ending in Literature.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Amioran wrote...
.

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...
Plus, you're acting as though there is an enormous body of people who really enjoyed the ending for the reasons bioware wanted. They are an extreme minority.

And who told you so? The people here in this forum are about the 0.01% of all the people who bought ME3, and so they are those of YouTube etc. Morover it is obvious that those that lose the time to post are usually those against a thing, that's human nature.

Given this, how can you be sure of what you say?

1] All my friends, others randoms like my sisters boyfriend, the over-whelming majority of people on my 40k forum where this issue was blasted into bloody ruin. If I have seen no defenders, let alone people saying the ending was great; then its safe to assume from the evidence I see.  In fact most of the defenders real point is 'are you nerds seriously complaining' regardless of what they themselves think about the ending; thats the most common response against.

2] They are also the people most likely to read something into the story and the precise group of people Bioware wanted to appeal to with this sort of occult sci-fi. Trans-humanism, darwinism n all that. Endings like AI or 2001 Space Odyssy are not to everyones taste. Also if complaints are more prevelent than people saying 'awesomes' then its far more likely the posters represent the tip of the iceberg. Biowares acknowledgement that people are hacked off and its response (though many people are disappointed with it) proves that Bioware has also assumed this.

[Amioran]

Il Divo wrote...
No difference that matters. You've still effectively told Fan A that what he wants is unimportant, otherwise you would be doing what Fan A wanted in the first place. Whether you, as the creator, claim it's because of some motivation is irrelevant.

Ah, so now motivation is unimportant. Guess you should propose that to a lawyer defending a killer. I'm sure he would have something to disagree concerning this, since motivations matters a lot for the time his client can spend in jail.

Hardly. It happens all the time.

 
Examples?

Whether the developers say that they did it due to "negative feedback" or for narrative purposes or simply on a whim, the end result is the same. As a fan, I don't care that Bioware, in keeping the endings, has chosen another fan (or fans) over me. I care that they made a product I don't find entertaining.

Bioware has chosen nobody on keeping the ending. That's the product they have made. I cannot understand how can you make that "jump".

That is your error in judgment, in assuming that what matters to people is that Bioware has lowered their value in comparison to other fans. Everyone, as soon as they enter the consumer market, realizes that they only have value in so far as they are part of a market for a product. When you're no longer a viable market, you're expendable. 

What you say can also be true, but it has little to do with what we are talking here specifically. It has more to do with the research for targets for future products.

 

To which I say I really don't care. See above, the motivation of the action does not concern me.

So, if you would be a pro-ender it would no matter at all to you if they change the ending based on others opinon, isn't it? It would be the same exact thing as if they changed the same because the developers understood that there was somthing wrong in it, isn't it?

You would care only about the change, not for the fact that in one case they did it for no motive at all (but a purely arbitrary motive) while in the other at last there's a motive to do so.

I guess in the same way you don't care at all if your girlfriend leaves you because she is about to die, to not make suffer you, it would have the same meaning as her leaving you because she doesn't love you no more, isn't it?

One opinion is not better than another. A hundred opinions however are, because they are each backed by cash. If you think otherwise, game design will be a very rude awakening. Nothing gets made which people don't think will sell. If 99% of Bioware's market said "We hate the ending and won't buy anything until it's fixed", then Bioware's got more to worry about than their principles.

In fact I continue repeating that since Bioware cannot know the TRUE picture, a move as a total change of the ending would be an hazardous route. Just because you don't knwo the hard facts behind the picture presented, for a company that want to make money from the products it is a risky move to choose a side.

Modifié par Amioran, 01 mai 2012 - 04:55 .

[Kajan451]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

Also if complaints are more prevelent than people saying 'awesomes' then its far more likely the posters represent the tip of the iceberg. Biowares acknowledgement that people are hacked off and its response (though many people are disappointed with it) proves that Bioware has also assumed this.

Nielson Families. There is a reason TV Quotas are, world wide, measured by nielson families. Its not everyone turning in that says "1,9 Million people watched <boring tv shows you know noone likes but is strangely popular>" its the 10 dorks with the Nielson Family access that make those numbers.

Each person of the Nielson Families represents an actually percentage. Nielson Families are usually selected in an statistical average region. The same thing applies to Internet Forums.

Not everyone goes to forums, but for everyone that complains or complains about the complains you have X other people who don't bother to cast their vote. Still on a statistic level.. both complainers most likely represent a fraction of the majority.

Of course in this case we don't have average situations where people are selected to be nielson families, but rather we are just the ones who either care enough or are bored enough to come here and say something.

[Amioran]

MrMcDoll wrote...
Thirded,
Motion carried
Amioran, by popular decree you have been voted as wrong.

It doesn't matter for me.

P.S.; Thank you for replying to MY post to you and not, as always, saying anything at all and talking about me in the back.

Thank you very much for your interesting arguments on my detailed reply to you.

I think I'm done with you. I gave you a last chance but I see that you don't really care about debating but only care about playing your jokes in the background.

Have fun.