510 réponses à ce sujet

[CerberusCheerleader]

Amioran wrote...

But, let me do an example (hoping is the right one for you), if they were going to lose time to add to Mass Effect hack and slash swordplay would you think that fine only because that's an option? Would you not prefer the time to be spent on something you like?
 
Certainly if I were to like the ending I would prefer a full side mission than a simple option to something I would probably not consider a good move to begin with (because I think that the game is fine as it is).

Why is this so difficult, I wonder (you are not doing this on purpose, are you? )

Let's assume Bioware wanted to produce a big SP dlc (say, like Shadow Broker). Ok? Now, the only question is: what story arc should this dlc feature? I'm simple saying that it should be about an alternative ending. Nothing more, nothing less. While there is no reason to assume that this alone should be any less interesting than some sidemission dlc would be, it would also have the added benefit of pacifing the haters.

Modifié par CerberusCheerleader, 01 mai 2012 - 04:47 .

[Amioran]

Kajan451 wrote...
I seriously would like to meet a person that actually loves that ending. Actually i extend it and say i actually want to meet someone that did like it.

There are many also in this forums. They usually don't talk (because it is a waste in their opinion) but there are many and in those many there are some that literally love the ending.

Kajan451 wrote...
Ahh, so your saying that bioware actually has an obligation to make their game run with the same specs as ME1s specs? Because after all not doing it would basically mean they are prefering those customers with higher system specs over those who have played ME1. I mean if they do that, they'd prefer one type of customer over the other.. so they couldn't change the games specs of a Triology. Right?

No. Why don't you do a little of effort to try to comprehend the thing instead of just wanting to read it as you like to?

Technical advancements (and the likeness of doing them or not) are based on non-arbirtary parameters. They are not solely on opinions.

Kajan451 wrote...
And yet, they did. They went ahead and decided that some fans (those with high enough system specs) are more preferably than those that didn't make the cut.

It is not a matter of opinion. There are some parameters behind this choice (that I'm sure you can understand). It was not something having to do only with opinion of certain people vs. opinon of certain others.

Kajan451 wrote...
Honestly, your hole reasoning is bull.

All the examples you provided are NOT based solely on opinion. If you want to prove a point wrong you cannot use an argument that has nothing to do with it do so such.

Kajan451 wrote...
I am a writer and i don't know anyone that thinks badly about Doyle. Actually Doyle is rather revered as the creator of Sherlok Holmes...

Go in an artistic circle. In my city there are many; in none of them Doyle is considered as much.
Then you can ask a critic of literature. S/He can also like the books in themselves (because they are enjoyable) but when you talk of Doyle in confront to other artists (of the same period or not) you will see that the opinion is not one of the better (and most have to do with this).

Kajan451 wrote...
In the Original story O, the female protagonist, seeks permission to kill herself. Her Master grants her said permission because he grew tired of her. This ending was later changed / removed and 15 years after countless inquiries about how the story would end or rather how it shouldn't end that way, they released a new ending / addition, which is the ending you find in todays prints.

Excuse me but your point is?

It was not changed for the audience.

Modifié par Amioran, 01 mai 2012 - 04:54 .

[Amioran]

CerberusCheerleader wrote...
Let's assume Bioware wanted to produce a big SP dlc (say, like Shadow Broker). Ok? Now, the only question is: what story arc should this dlc feature? I'm simple saying that it should be about an alternative ending. Nothing more, nothing less. While there is no reason to assume that this alone should be any less interesting than some sidemission dlc would be, it would also have the added benefit of pacifing the haters.

You say I don't try to comprehend but then you simply sidestep all the points I'm making. I made you examples, reply to them with other examples on the same line, in this way it is more simple to come to a consensus.

1. When Bioware (for example) announces a DLC you DON'T KNOW the content a priori. You cannot know exactly what it will be about in the specific, so you cannot say a priori if you think it a waste of time or not (you can speculate, but you cannot be sure). For the ending it's different. Those who like it already, since they will know what the DLC will be about (i.e. changing the same) would have basis to consider the DLC a waste of time.

2. When people know the content of the afore-mentioned DLC example, in fact, many who don't like the same complain that's a waste of time. Just the idea of it it's a waste of time for those who are not interested in the same. Time better spent for something more constructive. And in this case, then one can find non-arbirtrary motivations behind the DLC (of whatever type), in the case of the ending there's none of this, since the motivations are purely based on "opinions".

3. Also if you don't know how the alternate ending will be produced, the intention of doing such and not doing something you can like more it is already a waste of time in the mind of those that are not interested in it. I made you an example about the "swordplay DLC" that you completely ignored. Also in that case you cannot know how it will play in execution, yet I'm sure this will not stop to think just the idea as bad and a waste of time if you hate the idea of something as that.

Modifié par Amioran, 01 mai 2012 - 05:05 .

[DonYourAviators]

They're admitting to their own incompetence already.

[Amioran]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...
1] All my friends, others randoms like my sisters boyfriend, the over-whelming majority of people on my 40k forum where this issue was blasted into bloody ruin. If I have seen no defenders, let alone people saying the ending was great; then its safe to assume from the evidence I see.  In fact most of the defenders real point is 'are you nerds seriously complaining' regardless of what they themselves think about the ending; thats the most common response against.

1. How many people are there? What it will be about 0.0001% of the actual people who bought ME3?

2. The fact that you found nobody defending the ending it's not proof that nobody didn't really like it. There are many motives why one can simply stay quiet about it or either say the contrary. You know, for example, not being attacked for being in the minority, looking great by finding something to dislike in company (also if you think otherwise), or simply pure "I don't care to debate about this thing, it's futile".

[Il Divo]

Amioran wrote...

Ah, so now motivation is unimportant. Guess you should that to a lawyer defending a killer. I'm sure he have something to disagree concerning this, since motivations matters a lot for the time his client can spend in jail.

The lawyer [ideally] is concerned with justice and order, two concepts on which motivation is pretty important. Killing someone out of greed or self-defense is pretty critical in such an example.

On the other hand, motivation is unimportant from the perspective of entertainment. I don't purchase products on the basis of motivation, but on the title on the shelf. If a developer makes a fantastic game, I'm not really concerned with whether he did out of a love for game-making or simple greed; on my end, assuming the product is equally good in both cases.

Examples?

Any instance where fan complaint has either resulted in a feature being removed or redesigned? Whether Bioware chooses to make this alteration on future products or the current one isn't all that important. I outline romances because those tend to be the best instances where outcry results in one character being favored over another (See Jacob compared to Liara).

Bioware has chosen nobody on keeping the ending. That's the product they have made. I cannot understand how can you make that "jump".

Well, that was more to demonstrate how [as a consumer] I'm not interested in why they've chosen me or not. If Bioware gave me a thorough analysis on why they think the ending is good, I would certainly appreciate it. Now, if they also told me that the majority of fans actually like the ending, so they're keeping it, I would still be left in the exact same boat, since I would still disagree with them and the fans. 

Like I said, in the consumer market, your opinion is always invalidated before the masses. I don't see why I, as a consumer, should take exceptional offense to Bioware operating according to that principle.

 

So, if you would be a pro-ender it would no matter at all to you if they change the ending based on others opinon, isn't it? It would be the same exact thing as if they changed the same because the developers understood that there was somthing wrong in it, isn't it?

You would care only about the change, not for the fact that in one case they did it for no motive at all (but a purely arbitrary motive) while in the other at last there's a motive to do so.

I would be concerned most with one thing: my satisfaction. Many decisions of fan outcry at their source (see the Mako). Do you really know in that instance with ME2 that Bioware did understand the ouctry against exploration? Or did they do it merely as a result of popular opinion? Sure, they might claim X, but it's difficult to sift through BS at times.

I can't really know why Bioware made any particular decision. And in the end, should I be concerned if it results in a product I'm interested in buying?

I guess in the same way you don't care at all if your girlfriend leaves you because she is about to die, to not make suffer you, it would have the same meaning as her leaving you because she doesn't love you no more, isn't it?

See the above example. Entertainment functions in an entirely different way than the examples you list. My goal in entertainment is singular: satisfaction. My girlfriend's decision to leave me might affect how I go about handling the emptiness. If she's about to die, I would probably be interested in easing her suffering.

Maybe a better way to phrase it is not that motivation is unimportant, since that can lead to increasingly extreme examples, but that in this case the motivation you pose (choosing one fan over another) isn't altogether a foreign or horrible concept, especially in the market/entertainment medium.

In fact I continue repeating that since Bioware cannot know the TRUE picture, a move as a total change of the ending would be an hazardous route. Just because you don't knwo the hard facts behind the picture presented, for a company that want to make money from the products it is a risky move to choose a side.

Ah, but they can approximate. I don't know the full facts, but I assume Bioware's resources and resource-gathering is more efffective than I have. Companies make risky decisions everytime they rely on fan outcry as judgment. Again, see the Mako example. Choosing a side in any conflict is always risky, but they still do it at some point, based on the best approximation they can make. Luckily in this case, the download is ultimately optional.

Modifié par Il Divo, 01 mai 2012 - 05:04 .

[translationninja]

Amioran wrote...
Go in an artistic circle. In my city there are many; in none of them Doyle is considered as much.
Then you can ask a critic of literature. S/He can also like the books in themselves (because they are enjoyable) but when you talk of Doyle in confront to other artists (of the same period or not) you will see that the opinion is not one of the better (and most have to do with this).

I'm sorry, but your statements are becoming embarrassing. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was knighted for his writing, in a time where that still meant A LOT.

He was widely regarded as having refined and improved the formula first presented by Edgar Allan Poe, whom was one of the most acidic and sharp literature critics of his time aside from writing extremely well.

So tell me again, whom are these artists you know that regard the man who managed to surpass even Edgar Allan Poe????

I'm sorry man, I really don't mean to troll you or anything, but you just keep saying stuff I can't let stand the way they are.

Look if you like the endings because you read whatever into it and it works for you that's fine, just don't expect to find validation for that anywhere nearby...

[CerberusCheerleader]

Out of curiosity: I have difficulties extracting what the OP is getting at from what he is writing (I'm no native speaker). Are there Americans here? Am I the only one finding that difficult?

[SalsaDMA]

Amioran wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
There are youtube videos detailing just why the ending is bad from an objective point of view using the tools of literature. Nothing subjective there.

Yes, YouTube videos are good proof of something, how not. The majority of YouTube users are experts of literature, sure. Are you kidding me?

Your "objectivity" just demonstrate that you have no idea of what you are talking about. All those videos are complete crap, those people know absolutely anything about the theme (that every either mediocre student of literature know almost perfectly, so here there goes your "experts of literature"), and yet they want to judge the narrative.
 
It doesn't matter if you like/don't like what you have, without the context you cannot judge objectively a narrative, there's no way.

Your "videos" have the same value as the judgment of an ape on a work of Leonardo (and not because I consider ME on par of works of Leonardo, it is just an example).

Thanks for showing your true colours.

I'm sorry, but this isn't about 'faith vs non-faith', or 'opinion vs opinion'. It's obvious that is the way you are trying to attack the discussion, but it doesn't work that way in real life. You can start bashing and making random insults towards those detailing exactly what is objectively wrong all you want, rather than accepting that their objective points actually have merit; it doesn't make your faith in the unerring Bioware anymore correct, though.

They messed up. Bottomline. Whether the error lies in the hands of the entire team, the suits dictating deadlines and resources available or if it relies on 2 persons filled with hubris thinking they can come up with an ending in their coffeebreak doesn't matter. The game shipped flawed, and the company itself have to deal with the fact that the quality it used to be known for is long gone as a trademark (although this latter is not solely ME3's fault, but rather a culmination of the latest line of flawed releases).

Your entire premise of this thread is that your opinion is the only one that counts, and because of this you feel Bioware can't retract and admit error. This is by itself a flawed assumption. A company consists of humans. Humans makes errors. Most big companies have made some egregious error at some point. Some of them admit it and try to repair their errors, some don't. This is nothing new in corporate dealings.

Personally, I only respect the companies that have the ability to see where they bummed up, and try to fix their mistakes. I have zero respect for the companies that keep claiming they made no mistake, despite it being clear to everyone glancing in the direction of the issue that they did indeed make a giant blunder. Especially when they then pull out a minor admittance of it when trying to sell you THE NEXT PRODUCT, claiming that they learned form their mistakes, which their refusal to dela with the problem while it was relevant shows all to clearly that they didn't.

<_<

Currently, Bioware aren't getting any respect from me in their way of handling things.

[AkiKishi]

Kajan451 wrote...

I seriously would like to meet a person that actually loves that ending. Actually i extend it and say i actually want to meet someone that did like it.

Me too. Unfortunately this being the internet people will sat they liked it for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with the ending.

[AkiKishi]

CerberusCheerleader wrote...

Out of curiosity: I have difficulties extracting what the OP is getting at from what he is writing (I'm no native speaker). Are there Americans here? Am I the only one finding that difficult?

Jist of it is this. The OP feels he has some sort of expertise that makes his opinion more important than anyone elses.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 01 mai 2012 - 05:12 .

[Tallin Harperson]

You know what the funniest thing is: even if BioWare changes the ending -- no matter how they change it -- there will still be people that hate the new ending. Guaranteed. And you know what: no matter how small that group is, the outcry will be even greater from them because they know they can get BioWare to change the ending if they just cry loud enough. That is why BioWare CANNOT change the ending.

Modifié par Tallin Harperson, 01 mai 2012 - 05:16 .

[translationninja]

CerberusCheerleader wrote...

Out of curiosity: I have difficulties extracting what the OP is getting at from what he is writing (I'm no native speaker). Are there Americans here? Am I the only one finding that difficult?

I think he/she felt that the endings were very deep and artistic and philosophical and is now seeking validation because it must feel a bit lonely if you realize you are pretty much alone with such an assessment.

Therefore OP resorts to basically making a whole bunch of assumptions and unfounded assertions that allow OP to retain a positive self-image in light of his/her realization that this deep philosophical thing might indeed just be a crock of ****.
 
So to simplify it, OP is saying that everyone else is wrong no matter what

[Doctor Uburian]

Amioran wrote...

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...
1] All my friends, others randoms like my sisters boyfriend, the over-whelming majority of people on my 40k forum where this issue was blasted into bloody ruin. If I have seen no defenders, let alone people saying the ending was great; then its safe to assume from the evidence I see.  In fact most of the defenders real point is 'are you nerds seriously complaining' regardless of what they themselves think about the ending; thats the most common response against.

1. How many people are there? What it will be about 0.0001% of the actual people who bought ME3?

2. The fact that you found nobody defending the ending it's not proof that nobody didn't really like it. There are many motives why one can simply stay quiet about it or either say the contrary. You know, for example, not being attacked for being in the minority, looking great by finding something to dislike in company (also if you think otherwise), or simply pure "I don't care to debate about this thing, it's futile".

The fact that you found that only a relativilly small group of persons are against the ending on the forums it's not proof that everyone (the total number) really likes it. 

My friend finished the game yesterday, and he did't liked the endings at all, but he did not post on the forums because he is a busy person. Does that automatically make him a pro-ender?

Modifié par Doctor Uburian, 01 mai 2012 - 05:16 .

[translationninja]

CerberusCheerleader wrote...

Out of curiosity: I have difficulties extracting what the OP is getting at from what he is writing (I'm no native speaker). Are there Americans here? Am I the only one finding that difficult?

I think he/she felt that the endings were very deep and artistic and philosophical and is now seeking validation because it must feel a bit lonely if you realize you are pretty much alone with such an assessment.

Therefore OP resorts to basically making a whole bunch of assumptions and unfounded assertions that allow OP to retain a positive self-image in light of his/her realization that this deep philosophical thing might indeed just be a crock of ****.
 
So to simplify it, OP is saying that everyone else is wrong no matter what

[thegreat112]

This is all conjecture but why is everyone assuming what we have seen up until this point is the ending. Its looking to me like halfway through the story. sheppard hit his all time low from what we have seen so far. does that look like a story climax or the usual rock bottom the protagionast hits in the best books ever written. This game has defined an entire generation. and unless they charge for the DLCs that complete the story it will be the best story ever written. period. im waiting for the DLC that begins with "....Sheppard, you almost died down there.."

[SalsaDMA]

Amioran wrote...

It's different when you do the same for ANOTHER product.

Do you understand the difference? There are totally different parameters invested.

Hahahaha...

You reminded me of those old stereotypes there.

The girl that goes bat**** crazy when her boyfriend gives a kiss on the cheek to some other girl, but when she herself kisses another boy on the cheek, it's a totally different thing!!!!

Yeah, sure it is.... And the moon is a green cheese.

[Amioran]

Il Divo wrote...
On the other hand, motivation is unimportant from the perspective of entertainment. I don't purchase products on the basis of motivation, but on the title on the shelf.

That however is still another concept that "changing something you like for no motivation whatsoever". In this case motivation counts, because it is actually the motive behind the change (i.e. none in this case). How can you say that it doesn't matter to you if there's a motive or not in this case?

Whether Bioware chooses to make this alteration on future products or the current one isn't all that important.

How can you say a thing as this is beyond me. So for you changing an already existent product or one to make are the same thing.

Example: if they would have changed Dragon Age after the release to play as DA2 it would have been the same impact to you as DA2 made? Reply sincerely, please.

Well, that was more to demonstrate how [as a consumer] I'm not interested in why they've chosen me or not. If Bioware gave me a thorough analysis on why they think the ending is good, I would certainly appreciate it. Now, if they also told me that the majority of fans actually like the ending, so they're keeping it, I would still be left in the exact same boat, since I would still disagree with them and the fans. 

In both cases there's an non-arbitrary parameter behind. In the first is technical, in the second is the fact that a proved majority preferred the game.

It would be the same thing if they did say: we chose to do it that way because after a bit of thought we have decided that part B of the audience has an opinion that matters most than yours.

Are you sure this would have caused the same reaction to you?

I would be concerned most with one thing: my satisfaction. Many decisions of fan outcry at their source (see the Mako). Do you really know in that instance with ME2 that Bioware did understand the ouctry against exploration? Or did they do it merely as a result of popular opinion? Sure, they might claim X, but it's difficult to sift through BS at times.

Well, I suppose you can either think differently than me on this. For me motivation will matter, and a lot. It remains to be seen if more people are similar to your behaviour or mine. I tend to believe that they would not like an arbitrary motivation no matter the result, but I can either be wrong.

See the above example. Entertainment functions in an entirely different way than the examples you list. My goal in entertainment is singular: satisfaction. My girlfriend's decision to leave me might affect how I go about handling the emptiness. If she's about to die, I would probably be interested in easing her suffering.

And how can you be satisfied by something that it's morally unappropriate? Can you be satisfied the same just because you like what you have knowing however that the motivations behind are completely faulted?

Another example, having not to do with real life, but with products: you have a chess engine that is very strong, but you know that the author copied it from another just with a little modification to make it stronger. Do you care nothing at all about this?

Maybe a better way to phrase it is not that motivation is unimportant, since that can lead to increasingly extreme examples, but that in this case the motivation you pose (choosing one fan over another) isn't altogether a foreign or horrible concept, especially in the market/entertainment medium.

Where they actually say it plainly to you (as in this case it would happen)? I don't remember any sincerely.

Ah, but they can approximate. I don't know the full facts, but I assume Bioware's resources and resource-gathering is more efffective than I have. Companies make risky decisions everytime they rely on fan outcry as judgment. Again, see the Mako example. Choosing a side in any conflict is always risky, but they still do it at some point, based on the best approximation they can make. Luckily in this case, the download is ultimately optional.

But for the Mako is another discourse because it is another game. I made you an example of DA:O vs. DA2 before. Let's see how you reply to that.

[abaris]

CerberusCheerleader wrote...

Out of curiosity: I have difficulties extracting what the OP is getting at from what he is writing (I'm no native speaker). Are there Americans here? Am I the only one finding that difficult?

Simply don't look for reason where there is none.

[thegreat112]

guys if they do like i think they are it will give ME3 an episodic nature. <---- just more of my opinion based on what i have seen.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Amioran wrote...

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...
1] All my friends, others randoms like my sisters boyfriend, the over-whelming majority of people on my 40k forum where this issue was blasted into bloody ruin. If I have seen no defenders, let alone people saying the ending was great; then its safe to assume from the evidence I see.  In fact most of the defenders real point is 'are you nerds seriously complaining' regardless of what they themselves think about the ending; thats the most common response against.

1. How many people are there? What it will be about 0.0001% of the actual people who bought ME3?

2. The fact that you found nobody defending the ending it's not proof that nobody didn't really like it. There are many motives why one can simply stay quiet about it or either say the contrary. You know, for example, not being attacked for being in the minority, looking great by finding something to dislike in company (also if you think otherwise), or simply pure "I don't care to debate about this thing, it's futile".

1-From me forming an impression thats pretty important; especially when those you talk to are very like-minded.

2-So you do accept they're a minority?

My experience is that people, especially posters, prefer to be controversarial. If I'am on  a 40k forum and people rant about how one army is over-powered you will always get a division of defenders who can put a very fair point across. Put there really hasn't been a consistent or coherent defence. I did just read one which tried to argue Bioware was angling for the inevitable conflict of synthetics with EDI and the Geth. Which is just not true; the whole point was over-whelmingly the opposite. Most simply try to ignore the issues.

[SalsaDMA]

CerberusCheerleader wrote...

Another thought for the OP: could it be that you are unsecure? No, really  Maybe you are afraid that a new ending might have less plot holes and might actually make some sense and if it would make sense you would than have to take that new ending as "the one true ending" even though you might like the old endings philosophy better. Could that be?
In other words: they can't add a new ending because the current one is so bad.

You just reminded me of this article: http://arstechnica.c...-self-image.ars

[Justin2k]

My old employer told all its staff that they were changing their contracts and said if people didn't like it they could always leave.  They didn't expect anyone to actually quit, but within days 6 people had.  However, they carried on with their stance right the way to the end, at which point they had lost 3/4 of the team.

Why?  Big companies can not be seen to be backing down.  To fans, to staff, to whomever.  Bioware will defend this ending to the death because anything less will be seen as weakness. 

Like with my ex-employer, the correct solution would have been to get the ending/terms correct in the first place so that it never got to said point.