510 réponses à ce sujet

[Amioran]

BobSmith101 wrote...
NDP figures are not assumptions. They are statistics.

Statistics based on assumptions because nobody can be sure of real sold copies, they are just estimates based on abstract factors available at the moment (and that shift continuosly).

It is like (not properly because this last is much more mathematic) a statistic on your consumes in the house. They do an estimate (based on certain factors) but it is not said (and it is usually in fact never the case) that they are what it really happens.

BobSmith101 wrote...
What you believe to be true does not matter.

Say that to yourself.

Looking at how many people bought and played the previous games it is highly improbable than less than 4 millions bought ME3.

Naturally I'm also making assumptions, but I have no problems admitting it.

BobSmith101 wrote...
You typed 4,5,6 without checking. That's your problem not mine.

OMG.

No, I wrote "4, 5 or even 6". Do you neither know grammar now?

The "5" (less) and "6" (primarily) in it are obviously (for the way the sentence is build) hypotetical factors. It is not the same as saying: "6 milllions bought it", because the construction of the phrase implies another thing, i.e. an hypothesis on the "6" number, and much less on the "5".

But I'm sure you understand this perfectly. You just want to be stubborn to be right.

[vania z]

Guys, why are you arguing with the OP? He does not know what he is talking about and he is not interested in learning.

[AkiKishi]

vania z wrote...

Guys, why are you arguing with the OP? He does not know what he is talking about and he is not interested in learning.

It's a good time waster I was drinking my morning coffee at my desk.

[Amioran]

BobSmith101 wrote...
A poll does not require a discussion it requires a click. If people can't be bothered to do that it means they don't care about issue on the poll.

Occams razor.

In fact, they can not care about the issue on the poll (for various motives), that's completely different than not caring about the product.

What you say, I'm sorry, it is completely non sequitur. You talk of two obviously different things as if they should be correlated in some way.

Lex parsimoniae requires assumptions based on correlated facts, so it doesn't apply.

[Amioran]

vania z wrote...

Guys, why are you arguing with the OP? He does not know what he is talking about and he is not interested in learning.

Learning what?

If someone would ever say me something that makes some sense I would glady learn it.

Problem is that all people are saying here is completely nonsense.

You would understand it too reading the previous posts if you would not be so biased.

One example: exchanging support for simply shipping the product and leaving it as it is. It doesn't take a genius to understand that it is an idiocy (and a completely non sequitur), but it naturally requires objectivity to begin with to even consider the point (that it makes no sense) if it's coming from the part you don't like.

I'm sure that if the roles were inverted you would see a thing as that immediately, and that's the sadness of all the issue.

Modifié par Amioran, 02 mai 2012 - 09:44 .

[CARL_DF90]

I am afraid there are a few holes in your reasoning there OP, but since I am running short on time I will simply say this: yes it can be changed and if Bioware has any sense left at all they will.

[vania z]

BobSmith101 wrote...

vania z wrote...

Guys, why are you arguing with the OP? He does not know what he is talking about and he is not interested in learning.

It's a good time waster I was drinking my morning coffee at my desk.

Oh, well, than it's fine, sorry:)

[AkiKishi]

Amioran wrote...
In fact, they can not care about the issue on the poll (for various motives), that's completely different than not caring about the product.

What you say, I'm sorry, it is completely non sequitur. You talk of two obviously different things as if they should be correlated in some way.

Lex parsimoniae requires assumptions based on correlated facts, so it doesn't apply.

Great so now a poll about the ending somehow represents the product....

There are plenty of people who like ME3. Those same people don't like the ending.

Your lack of understanding is the problem here, your trying to take a poll about a part of the product , the ending and apply it to the product as a whole.

[Catastrophy]

I don't get your point about objectiveness.
I think it's more about how much funds would be needed to change something and what could be expected in return. It's more an economic decision. And from that I come to the same result: It's quite unlikely they will change the ending.

Another point is: They would admit to have goofed it up and they could loose additional prestige if they goof that up as well.

I'd say the best thing would be to adress customers, apologize honestly, explain honestly what made them tick to hand this ending out and deliver the closure they announced.
Yea, and give me another space opera.

[Chugster]

Daddy555 wrote...
a turd can not be polished and is not art for dam sure

i keep seeing this phrase, but what most of you dont know is that you can polish a turd....been proven

[Amioran]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Great so now a poll about the ending somehow represents the product....

Whoever said this? Sometimes I cannot get the "jumps" you do.

All this started with your sentence: "Either people who don't want the ending changed, don't care about it, or don't care enough to be vocal. Either way it's lose/lose for your vocal minority idea."

To which I replied that

1. staying silent doesn't necessarily mean that you will have a lose/lose situation (as proven by the facts in this case),
2. those that do can anyway have many more motives than simply not caring about people attacking the product they like.
3. those that do don't partecipate in the poll can mean that they don't care about the poll, but it doesn't mean that they don't care about the product just for this.

So, where in the hell did you extrapolate that "now a poll about the ending somehow represents the product" is really beyond me.

BobSmith101 wrote...
There are plenty of people who like ME3. Those same people don't like the ending.

Sure, but if you rememer correctly, it was not me that assumed that since people don't attack those who attack the ending it means they don't care about the product (impling logically that given this their "existence" means less for Bioware).

It was another guy above.

It can be that I mistakengly implied that you agreed somewhat with that view given what you were saying, in this case I apologize.

It was my fault if something as this happened.

EDIT: In case of this, however, it is simply a matter of changing the things appropriately, meanig (referred to the replies of before):

1. staying silent doesn't necessarily mean that you will have a lose/lose situation (as proven by the facts in this case),

2. those that do can anyway have many more motives than simply not caring about the ending. One of these can be, in fact, thinking the poll a nonsense to begin with (given as how they can think that some that don't like the ending have no really objective motive behind). 

I, for example, didn't partecipate in the poll because I thought it a waste of time, no matter the points of view. This doesn't mean that I don't care about the issue on the ending.

There are many motives why one cannot partecipate on a poll, and many of these have nothing to do with what the poll is about to begin with.

Modifié par Amioran, 02 mai 2012 - 10:56 .

[Drake_Hound]

You do not understand OP , Bioware can do anything they want .
Tommorow they can say change the ending and you still have bioware bashers around suddenly bashing game was not good enough ..

Sorry the reason for them not changing the ending has to do with artistic saving someody ego .
Nothing to do with fans or not fans , sorry with them moving on to the IPAD market with 5 million + and growing consumers , what is a X-Box market or even PC market .

With IPAD it is almost straight revenue EA minus small fee . why you think games are so cheap .
DLC contents Paid virtual goods are a accepted market on the IPAD .

So they do need people like you telling they cannot change the ending .
They do not need the trolling idiots fans or anti fans ,what they do need is the people willing to support them with the move .

now somebody has to learn to swallow the ego , or it won't happen .
Sorry we are all humans we all make mistakes , but you do not treat majority of your loyal fanbase since NWN , with this crap endings and kill off a trilogy like that .
Especially not a Trilogy that could make tons more money in the future .
Sorry that is the hard cold fact , THEY CAN DO ANYTHING THEY WANT

Just will they do the right thing and keep a loyal fanbase of mature people with the money .
Or will they just say he who cares , we can make a new fanbase on the IPAD .

[Amioran]

Drake_Hound wrote...

You do not understand OP , Bioware can do anything they want .

Surely they can. The "cannot" in the title it is more of an hyperbole than anything else, to make the point discussed in the thread have more impact.

It is not the be taken literally, as in they cannot literally change the ending (for whatever motive), because it is obvious they can do whatever they want with their product, no matter what and no matter what's the reason behind.

They don't need to explain anything and they don't need to ask the permission from anyone to do something as that on a product they own. They will then naturally have to stand with the consequences of their action, however, and this is why the "cannot" of the title; it is more of a - how can I say it? - "philosophical" cannot, in the sense that's not based on a factual impossibility but on a more "ideological" one, given the consequences the act will arise.

Drake_Hound wrote...
Sorry the reason for them not changing the ending has to do with artistic saving someody ego .

That's naturally a large part of it. I didn't include the same because I wanted to point different things, but it is obvious that THEIR opinion of THEIR work has a much more important impact than every other one.

This is obvious. In this case, however, their opinion having more value it's not an arbitrary concept. It is their work so it is obvious that their opinion on the same has more value than that of others (whatever points they can have).

Drake_Hound wrote...
So they do need people like you telling they cannot change the ending .
They do not need the trolling idiots fans or anti fans ,what they do need is the people willing to support them with the move .

I have nothing to say on this, it is perfectly appropriate. I just refer you to what I said in the beginning about the way I used the "cannot".

Modifié par Amioran, 02 mai 2012 - 10:53 .

[Amioran]

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
No. Every single poll is about the same. About 83% hate it outright. Less then 5% have any kind of Positive feedback. Many of these polls are on This Very Forum. [/quote]

Sorry for the wait. I did see this only now.

Again, the polls you refer about are only a very little percentual of the whole picture, and anyway your 5% is proven wrong in many of them .

And, apart this, if you have 20% of people here (for example, and as you see the percentual is MUCH higher than you say) - where the context it is completely shifted on the "disliking" - that like the ending, it means that the thing is not so simple and straightforward as many of you think.

If in a context completely shifted on a part you have 20% of people that don't agree with it, in a different context the thing can be completely different. It is simple logic (and maybe a little of knowledge of human nature).

So, you see, also if you never consider this, the FULL picture can be much more complex than you want it to be.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
For the love of pete. NO! We want the story to make SENSE. We do not want a Deux Ex Mechania in the last five minutes of "Story". Bioware CAN do this. There are several ways they can do this.[/quote]

Your "we" is just only a part of all the audience. Why what you want should have more importance than what others want instead? On purely arbitrary reasons as that since you don't like the ending they must change it because you say so, not minding minimally about others' opinions?

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
They may choose *Not* to do this; but there is nothing stopping them.[/quote]

Maybe there's the fact that yours is only an opinion and it has no more value than that of others, isn't it?

So your "nothing" is not nothing at all.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
Whether or not you arge the duty is to their investors or their fans; I'm not sure it matters. If they wish to sell more games in the future, they need to provide quality content when that is purchased. [/quote]

Again completely ignoring the fact that the "fans" are not only those that think like you think.
Do you do it purposedly or what?

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
In any event, with such a strong majority, you are choosing to alienate the majority of fans to appease the smaller portion.[/quote]

The "strong majority" is only in your head. Nobody knows the real picture and nobody will ever know. You pretend it is so (and you inspect the thing only from your little window) just because it is easier to think this way to have a pretense on which to base your request.

But for Bioware it is not so simple. They know that things are not so plain as you want them to be and that they cannot know the full real picture, so they must consider all the opinions, not only the ones of those that are more vocal about them. They must also take in consideration other factors, as if the opinions have really an objective background or not, and also their view on the matter. These are all things you neither care to ponder about, because naturally it's much easier to do so to continue to have a so strong entitlement on a thing you cannot have such.

And either if it really was a "strong majority" there are other factors to consider, as that a minority can easily become a majority depending on the moves you do, and as the fact that you completely ignore the opinion of the creators of the work to being with, that's much more important than yours.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
You really think this a good idea?[/quote]

Not making a change based on purely arbitrary motives? Sure it is.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
It's bigger. A lot bigger. Don't try to deny that. Again.[/quote]

I don't try to deny anything. I just see the full picture (with all its subtleties and uncertainities) while you only look at what it is convenient for you.  

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
Unless something is done, we're going to be the ones reminding people about the new awfulness of their storytelling, and urging people to stay away.[/quote]

Good to know. I will sleep much better knowing this.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
A dog is not a video game. A video game is not a living person, and no number of synthesis beams can make it one.[/quote]
 
It makes no difference for the meaning of the example. Both a dog and a game have people grow an emotional attachment to them, especially in the case of game for what it concerns the narrative in the same. So there's no difference in this point between them.


[quote]TreguardD wrote...
Given what? Poorly argued motives? [/quote]

I would say soundly motives that you see as poor just because elsewhere all your "pretense" would crumble.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
Bioware not only should not consider all users of the same importance, but they should also consider the sheer quantity of users on both sides. Scales are tipped, here, sir.
[/quote]

A quantity you cannot know (no matter if you say the contrary). So no, scales are not tipped at all, that's just how you want to see it.

Until there's uncertainity you cannot say you know the reality of a situation. It's the same as the "reasonable doubt" for what it concerns an act (criminal usually).

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
If Bioware would like to continue to sell us games, they need to actively repair the brokeness of THIS game. [/quote]

A brokeness that it is a matter of some opinions. Apart that it is not an objective "brokeness" (because the proofs many of you insist to bring on the table lacks completely the capability of a judgment to begin with, given the knowledge on the matter of most of the authors of them), also if it would a narrative (as every form of expression) contains anyway parameters tied with subjectivity, so those can only be tied to opinions and it doesn't exist something as a wrong opinion.

Given this, the "brokeness" you talk about will never be an objective "brokeness", and, for this, they don't need to repair anything at all, because if it is "broken" or "not broken" it is just a matter of personal view on the matter.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
Or it will be the last time.[/quote]

LOL.

You are seriously intimidating. I would shake by the fear if I was Bioware.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
No! WE DO NOT WANT CLOSURE. The current ending is not in need of POLISHING. It needs to be FIXED. And it's something they CAN do. Fallout 3 did it. Asura's Wrath is doing it.[/quote]

Yes, you want it. Naturally since you want it they must do it. How not. It works exactly in this way.

And this without either entering again on the matter about "different opinions", you know.

As for Fallout 3, no, they didn't do it, it was another thing altogheter (the context was completely different). As for Asura's Wrath I don't know the game so I cannot pronounce myself on this but given your example with Fallout 3 and all the rest I have high doubts it is as you say.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
They could have released a narrative coherent ending in the first place. We wouldn't be having this discussion. The base is broken. They can salvage it, if they've got the guts.[/quote]

All of this based on YOUR (and some others) opinion, not of everyone.

More, I really doubt you posses the knowledge to do an objective review of the narrative of ME. I can be wrong, but given all you say I have this impression. To judge something you MUST have knowledge on the background of the thing you are going to judge, elsewhere your judgment means nothing to begin with. This, alas, is the case of all the YouTube videos I've seen till now (and many of the people that talk about the ending) here.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
(sigh) CITATION NEEDED! [/quote]

Citation of what? Research the thing for yourself.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
You're missing the point. Fallout 3's original ending was broken in ways that differ from ME3's ending.  [/quote]

You say I miss the point and then you don't either understand anything at all of what I said.

All you wrote here is completely irrelevant. The remark was made appositedly to make readers understanding the difference between a context change (as the one asked from Bioware) and a specific change (as the one of Fallout 3).

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
Alan wake was a beginning. Not an ending. (Also, for the record, Alan Wake and Alan Wake's American Nightmare are both excellent and people should go play them.)[/quote]

Apart that you don't either know if ME3 is the real ending or not (so the same applies also to it), the controversy was the same in both cases (i.e. people wanted a change in the ending of the title).

You continue just considering the points you like to consider discarding all the rest.

[quote]TreguardD wrote...
It only has one ending in the original publication. Not an example.[/quote]

In fact it is not MY example. I just used those that get quoted many times here and rebutted to them.

Comprehension FTW (I either openly said it before quoting the examples, in fact).

Modifié par Amioran, 02 mai 2012 - 12:32 .

[Amioran]

slyguy200 wrote...
And ad-hominem requires that you be full of ****. 

I have the suspect you don't know very well what ad hominem means and what it implies in full.

But continue, I don't want to get in the way of your very interesting argumentations.

[AkiKishi]

slyguy200 wrote...

Amioran wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
A poll does not require a discussion it requires a click. If people can't be bothered to do that it means they don't care about issue on the poll.

Occams razor.

In fact, they can not care about the issue on the poll (for various motives), that's completely different than not caring about the product.

What you say, I'm sorry, it is completely non sequitur. You talk of two obviously different things as if they should be correlated in some way.

Lex parsimoniae requires assumptions based on correlated facts, so it doesn't apply.

And ad-hominem requires that you be full of ****. 

Quite revealing once you strip away those walls of text...

[translationninja]

Amioran wrote...

translationninja wrote...
The only problem I have is with people that think it is at their option to demand that other people don't get an option themselves.

And I already explained all about this perfectly. It is just you that don't care to read.

Those who like the ending don't get an option either just because the product it is as it is.

If Bioware ships the product and does nothing this doens't mean that they care more about those that like the ending, this is completely non sequitur and just how you like to see the thing, but IT MAKES NO SENSE.

I'm out of this "discussion". You make statements that prove again and again and again that you do not have the slightest clue about business or customer relations or how markets are developed. You just spew the same "oh hoshposh I have explained perfect but no one listens" bull**** over and over and over again.

So funny how it is always the people with the least bit of a clue of what they are talking about coming off as the most pompous...

[incinerator950]

I'm pretty sure the problem being their reluctance and willingness to spend the money to do a drastic rehaul of the ending, which would also require to change several key story elements throughout the entire game. This is worse then Obsidian's willingness to not use recycled graphics and not physically implement your outcome of the Battle of Hoover Dam to the game or the unnecessary amount of sidequests to add, even though it was physically possible.

[TheRealJayDee]

Seriously, if only I'd get a dollar everytime Amioran types a variation of "people talk about things they know nothing about" on the BSN I'd never have to work again. 

Still liking the guy!

[Amioran]

translationninja wrote...
I'm out of this "discussion". You make statements that prove again and again and again that you do not have the slightest clue about business or customer relations or how markets are developed.

I suppose that marketing has to do with your proven wrong theories then. Must be so. In fact marketing it is based on assumptions (and even more wrong in your case) and faulty psichology, how not. 

What a casuality that you quit the discussion just now that you were factually proven wrong, isn't it? I wanted to see how you could twist the thing in your favor, and here it is; the simplest way: do the part of the one that quits because the other tells idiocies no matter if what happened a moment ago shows exactly the contrary.

I sometimes don't know if to laugh or cry for the situation.

translationninja wrote...
You just spew the same "oh hoshposh I have explained perfect but no one listens" bull**** over and over and over again.

I have to. You continue to ignore everything I say just because so you can continue to have a point, and I have to start the same discussion all over again everytime. When then you change tune you start spewing your "theories" that have no value whatsoever if not in your head and pretend those are "how the marketing works". When proven wrong then, nothing to worry about, simply play the victim of the other's incompetence (so funny, isn't it?) and all will go well, no matter what.

The apotheosis of hypocrisy. But I suppose you cannot expect nothing different from those that talk about things they know absolutely anything about and yet pretends to be expert.

Apply the same to the "objectively bad writing of the ending" and you do the rest. Then you wonder why people with a little of real knowledge don't care minimally about defending the same from your "attacks". Not everyone like to lose time for things of no value whatsoever as I do. I guess a motto of Jim Morrison has influenced my attitude on these sort of things a little too much.

Modifié par Amioran, 02 mai 2012 - 02:53 .

[Amioran]

slyguy200 wrote...

Amioran wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...
And ad-hominem requires that you be full of ****. 

I have the suspect you don't know very well what ad hominem means and what it implies in full.

But continue, I don't want to get in the way of your very interesting argumentations.

I know well enough to be able to tell that you are using plenty of it.

Sure, sure.

What a shame you didn't quote the meaning, it would have been fun.

[Amioran]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Quite revealing once you strip away those walls of text...

It's also quite revealing the fact that you need to support each other.

You should research a little on what that means, usually, in psichology (not the two cents one your friend use), I'm sure you will not have so much fun after.

Modifié par Amioran, 02 mai 2012 - 02:55 .