510 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Amioran wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
Quite revealing once you strip away those walls of text...

It's also quite revealing the fact that you need to support each other.

You should research a little on what that means, usually, in psichology, I'm sure you will not have so much fun after.

We don't  need to  support each other, we are all just on the anti-ending side. If you feel everyone is ganging up on you it's because more people hate the ending than like it just like the polls indicate.

[Artemis_Entrari]

OP seems to be making the same assumption that he's accusing others of doing, but for the opposite reasons.

OP shoots down any poll results that show the "majority" of those polled disliked the ending, saying it's faulty reasoning to assume that the 70,000 isn't a reflection of the 4 or so million total sales. Yet OP seems to imply that, with no actual proof of his own, that that means that the majority of those who didn't post in the poll actually are okay with the ending, and that ONLY those among the 70000 that voted disliked it.

The problem is, without actual proof of what those people who didn't vote in the poll actually think, you can't make assumptions either way. All you can go by is the evidence you DO have, which is that every poll done comes back with the same result: the majority answering the poll do not like the ending.

All one has to do is compare these poll results with that of the US presidential election. Not every person in America votes. I think the recent turnout was something like only 25% of eligible voters actually bothered to vote. So for those bad at math, that means 75% of the US voting population did not vote on who they wanted for President.

Yet if a candidate wins 51% of the votes among those that DID vote, he is still considered to have won the election. Keep in mind, that only proves he got 51% of the votes among 25% of the population, and that we don't know for certain what the other 75% of the population thinks of him. But we can only go by what actual evidence there is in terms of who the US population wants for their president.

The OP is essentially taking the stand in the above that, although the majority of those who voted cast their vote for Candidate A to become president, that the vast majority of those who didn't vote have the opposite opinion, and in fact the 75% of the population that didn't vote actually wanted Candidate B to win ... they simply didn't bother to make their voice heard.

That's simply flawed thinking. The only actual evidence about the opinion of gamers with regards to ME3 that we ACTUALLY have (without going into speculation and assumption territory) is based on the percentages in these polls. Is it perfect? No. But until you find PROOF that the opposite is in fact true, all we have to go on in terms of opinion is what those who have voiced their opinion tell us, just like when picking a new president, the only evidence we have to go on is what those who actually voted chose.

Modifié par Artemis_Entrari, 02 mai 2012 - 02:52 .

[Kem1995]

Changing the ending because a large majority hated the ending won't make the others feel like their opinions are invalid. Thats how feedback works, not to mention the ending makes no sense at all, even more reason to change it

[bluewolv1970]

OP - Fallout three changed one of, if not the most important part of the ending, the player character went from dying to living...SO you would be ok if synthesis and control allowed Shepard to live since it would change the endings in a way similar to FO3???

[elecmanexe001]

Pretty decent point. I myself was ok with the ending, I wanted more but I could take it as is and the indoctrination theory I read several days later does seem to clear up a lot of issues I did have and honestly makes a lot of sense. I hope they use that or at least part of it in their explanation or pull something out to explain away these issues. However, as you have stated, they will not change the ending not for artistic integrity but likely for reasons like this, because surprisingly enough to the vocal majority(those who speak up against something always being greater) doesn't seem to understand, grasp, accept that some people actually liked or were fine with the ending as is. Bioware knows many more did not enjoy it, they can not ignore that fact, but they also can not ignore those who did like it or tear apart the work of their team either. Expanding on the ending is the best option, to rewrite it completely would, again as pointed out by OP, alienate those who did enjoy it, telling them that what they liked is wrong because x number of people thought differently then them.

Honestly though, we do not know what they will give us, yea it could be more 'crap', but what if it isn't? Assume what you want, but at least let the DLC come out before abandoning ship. If you loved the series and you waited this long for it to finish you can wait a bit longer to see if Bioware fixes what you dislike about the ending as well.

bluewolv1970 wrote...

OP - Fallout three changed one of,
if not the most important part of the ending, the player character went
from dying to living...SO you would be ok if synthesis and control
allowed Shepard to live since it would change the endings in a way
similar to FO3???

Sure why not? Fallout 3 was better for doing it and it only altered one detail which btw if they go with something along the lines of indoctrination theory would be effectively the same thing. Also the player did not have to die at the end of Fallout 3 there were different paths to take, they simply altered death in one or two of the paths. Technically in ME3 you have the same thing, Shepard is dead in 2 but not 1 of the endings(depending on readyness).

Modifié par elecmanexe001, 02 mai 2012 - 03:05 .

[Amioran]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...
OP shoots down any poll results that show the "majority" of those polled disliked the ending, saying it's faulty reasoning to assume that the 70,000 isn't a reflection of the 4 or so million total sales. Yet OP seems to imply that, with no actual proof of his own, that that means that the majority of those who didn't post in the poll actually are okay with the ending, and that ONLY those among the 70000 that voted disliked it.

Have I ever said a thing as that? Never, in fact.

I just said that since you don't know the full picture you cannot know the reality of the situation, and since you don't know the reality of the situation the choice (to change or not the ending) would be based on purely arbitrary parameters. I never stated that the majority is in that or that other.

Bah.

Artemis_Entrari wrote...
The problem is, without actual proof of what those people who didn't vote in the poll actually think, you can't make assumptions either way.

In fact I never did.

Given this it seems to me all your "problem" is just created by yourself.

Artemis_Entrari wrote...
That's simply flawed thinking.

The only thing flawed in here is the fact that you continue to insist I said something I never said to begin with.
When you will stop doing this then we can start talking about what' really flawed in my reasoning and what is not.

Modifié par Amioran, 02 mai 2012 - 03:11 .

[Amioran]

bluewolv1970 wrote...

OP - Fallout three changed one of, if not the most important part of the ending, the player character went from dying to living...SO you would be ok if synthesis and control allowed Shepard to live since it would change the endings in a way similar to FO3???

The context didn't change. It changed a specific thing, i.e. the death of the character. It is not the same thing as changin the context as it would be necessary for Bioware to do the changes people want.

If they just would add Shepard to live (that anyway it's already there, just so you know) it would be all another type of change than what people ask.

Modifié par Amioran, 02 mai 2012 - 03:06 .

[XTR3M3]

OP seems to be arguing just for the sake of the argument which can be fun I guess. Discounting the polls that show a vast majority of people hated the ending, especially the one of this very site, is like screaming that the person pissing in your face is only using water. Ignoring the fact that the people that voted are the fans voting on BioWare's own social network the OPs argument weak. The EC DLC can help to redeem the series, but just "polishing the turd" is going to be a fail.

BioWare can choose to do whatever they want. There are financial repercussions to that both positive and negative depending on how they move forward.

[bluewolv1970]

Amioran wrote...

bluewolv1970 wrote...

OP - Fallout three changed one of, if not the most important part of the ending, the player character went from dying to living...SO you would be ok if synthesis and control allowed Shepard to live since it would change the endings in a way similar to FO3???

The context didn't change. It changed a specific thing, i.e. the death of the character. It is not the same things as changin the context as it would be necessary for Bioware to do the changes people want.

If they just would add Shepard to live (that anyway it's already there, just so you know) it would be all another type of change than what people ask.

that is actually not what I asked - Fallout three alllowed the player character to live while succeding in the endgame, thus changing the ending by making it both happier, and to a lesser extent less nonsensical...SO by that logic Bioware should allow SHepard to live in ALL THREE endings since that would be comparable to FO3...that way players would not have to die to choose control or synthesis...and FYI having the player character live in an endng DOES drastically change the context...

Modifié par bluewolv1970, 02 mai 2012 - 03:10 .

[Artemis_Entrari]

Amioran wrote...

Artemis_Entrari wrote...
All one has to do is compare these poll results with that of the US presidential election. Not every person in America votes. I think the recent turnout was something like only 25% of eligible voters actually bothered to vote. So for those bad at math, that means 75% of the US voting population did not vote on who they wanted for President.

What kind of example that is? You are "forced" (at last in theory and in a certain sense) to vote a president and you can extrapolate factual data from the votes. A vote for a President gives much more motivation to people than a simple ending of a game does.

The scope of the two are completely different, as are the value of the votes and as are the factuality of the data you can extrapolate from them.

You're not "forced" to vote for a president, as evidenced by the fact that only a small percentage of the actual population voted the last election.  If you were "forced" to vote, then the 75% (or whatever the actual number was) that didn't vote would have.  So I'm not really sure why you'd say you're forced to vote a president.  75% of the popluation would suggest otherwise.

Anyway, you seem to sidestep the stuff I mentioned in that example to simply do your usual "they're completely different.  Dismissed" thing you do.  You're smart enough to understand the point I was making with the analogy, I think.  So either you're playing dumb and trying to obfuscate my point behind walls of text in your reply that really doesn't say much, or I'm giving you too much credit here.

[abaris]

elecmanexe001 wrote...

However, as you have stated, they will not change the ending not for artistic integrity but likely for reasons like this, because surprisingly enough to the vocal majority(those who speak up against something always being greater) doesn't seem to understand, grasp, accept that some people actually liked or were fine with the ending as is. Bioware knows many more did not enjoy it, they can not ignore that fact, but they also can not ignore those who did like it or tear apart the work of their team either. Expanding on the ending is the best option, to rewrite it completely would, again as pointed out by OP, alienate those who did enjoy it, telling them that what they liked is wrong because x number of people thought differently then them.

 

That's not a valid point.

There's nothing fancy about the whole matter. If you once partook in corporate decision making, you know the works.

There's an evaluation process going on and actually changing the ending probably costs too much to be taken into consideration. At EA/Bioware they have sound estimates about how many content, not caring or disgruntled customers they have produced. And company estimates are the only hard currency they have for evaluating a market. They have units of highly paid specialists doing this market research.

So, the sheer fact they are doing something like the EC, again stripped of all the fancy bits, says they're not entirely content with the endings reception. But not to the extent of investing money, manpower and time to redo the whole thing.

What we most certainly will see is an abundance of MP support, since, from a company standpoint, it's a cheap way to generate money. Maps, packs and classes cost next to nothing to produce. I daresay we will see close to none SP support, since by all indications, that part of the game didn't turn out as expected and won't keep up when it comes to selling additional content.

Modifié par abaris, 02 mai 2012 - 03:15 .

[Amioran]

slyguy200 wrote...
Why do that when i can just tell you to look it up. You do the same to all of us.

It would not be as fun as you doing it because it is you that insist to use the word without knowing what it implies fully and yet pretending you do.

So having you quote it and then having the quote itself demonstrate this point would be much funnier than doing it myself.

[bluewolv1970]

abaris wrote...

elecmanexe001 wrote...

However, as you have stated, they will not change the ending not for artistic integrity but likely for reasons like this, because surprisingly enough to the vocal majority(those who speak up against something always being greater) doesn't seem to understand, grasp, accept that some people actually liked or were fine with the ending as is. Bioware knows many more did not enjoy it, they can not ignore that fact, but they also can not ignore those who did like it or tear apart the work of their team either. Expanding on the ending is the best option, to rewrite it completely would, again as pointed out by OP, alienate those who did enjoy it, telling them that what they liked is wrong because x number of people thought differently then them.

 

That's not a valid point.

There's nothing fancy about the whole matter. If you once partook in corporate decision making, you know the works.

There's an evaluation process going on and actually changing the ending probably costs too much to be taken into consideration. At EA/Bioware they have sound estimates about how many content, not caring or disgruntled customers they have produced. And company estimates are the only hard currency they have for evaluating a market. They have units of highly paid specialists doing this market research.

So, the sheer fact they are doing something like the EC, again stripped of all the fancy bits, says they're not entirely content with the endings reception. But not to the extent of investing money, manpower and time to redo the whole thing.

What we most certainly will see is an abundance of MP support, since, from a company standpoint, it's a cheap way to generate money. Maps, packs and classes cost next to nothing to produce. I daresay we will see close to none SP support, since by all indications, that part of the game didn't turn out as expected and won't keep up when it comes to selling additional content.

agreed - I doubt any SP dlc will see the light of day at all, and EC may never even get released if Bioware can get enough drones to play  MP

[JustinSaneV2]

Daddy555 wrote...

artistic integrity LOL nothing about that ending resembled any form of art ive ever known... a turd can not be polished and is not art for dam sure

Actually...

http://en.wikipedia....y_fluids_in_art 

Modifié par JustinSaneV2, 02 mai 2012 - 03:20 .

[Amioran]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...
Anyway, you seem to sidestep the stuff I mentioned in that example to simply do your usual "they're completely different.  Dismissed" thing you do.  You're smart enough to understand the point I was making with the analogy, I think.  So either you're playing dumb and trying to obfuscate my point behind walls of text in your reply that really doesn't say much, or I'm giving you too much credit here.

Helloooooo??? There's somebody homeeeee?????

Have you understood that you replied me taking as evidence something I NEVER SAID? Have you understood that you tried to prove that I was wrong with things I never stated?

Do you understand that now you have extrapolated from my reply this discourse (that then I deleted after just because it was irrelevant) and discarded completely all I said about the fact that I never ever stated what you said I did to try to prove me wrong?

And now are you telling me I'm using my "dismissing thing"? You have taken a paragraph that had nothing to do whatsoever with the fact that you did put false things in my mouth to try prove me wrong and now I am the one that "dismiss" things in his favor? Are you f*cking serious?

I'm astonished really. It seems to me a nightmare. Do you people frequent a school to learn these secrets about twisting things to your end?

Now I even get the guy that accuse me of saying something I never said to begin with to try to prove me wrong, when I make him notice this he take something completely irrelevant from all of this fact just so he can say that I "dismiss" what he says when he from beginning has taken a thing I never said as proof of something and after completely overlooked me pointing the same.

I really don't know no more what to say. Seriously.

Modifié par Amioran, 02 mai 2012 - 03:39 .

[Artemis_Entrari]

Amioran wrote...

Helloooooo??? There's somebody homeeeee?????

Have you understood that you replied me taking as evidence something I NEVER SAID? Have you understood that you tried to prove that I was wrong with things I never stated?

Do you understand that now you have extrapolated from my reply this sentence (that then I deleted after just because it was irrelevant) that HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS POINT (that was the most important)?

And now you tell me I'm using my "dismissing thing". Are you f*cking serious?

I'm astonished really. It seems to me a nightmare. Do you people frequent a school to learn these secrets about twisting things to your end?

Now I even get the guy that accuse me of saying something I never said to begin with to try to prove me wrong, when I make him notice this he take something completely irrelevant from all of this just so he can say that I "dismiss" what he says when he from beginning has taken a thing I never said as proof of something and after completely overlooked me pointing the same.

I really don't know no more what to say. Seriously.

Now you know how people feel when discussing things with you. 

[XTR3M3]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...


Now you know how people feel when discussing things with you. 

QFT
you just said what we all have been thinking.

[Jeric]

I could be wrong but I think most “pro-enders”, along with the OP, are missing the point of those that want “changes”. I’m actually a little jealous of those that enjoyed how ME3 ended. I’ve tried and tried to swallow that “like the ending” pill but it keeps getting stuck in my throat and vomits back up. I think what most people want is for Bioware to keep the endings they have and then create/add NEW ones that reflect how people played the game. I would much rather have more ending options then extended DLC on what’s there!

I don’t even know why “pro-enders” come to these forums. If you’re happy with the outcome, don’t worry, we’re not asking for Bioware to mess things up for you. Don’t waste your time here. Smile and move on (I so wish I could). Why are you so opposed to adding options?

I think the OP is right on by not alienating certain groups of people but Bioware has done that by the lack of options. If they add endings to reflect how someone plays, wouldn’t that do quite the opposite! Don’t get me wrong, I’m NOT talking about 70,000 different endings. I totally agree that there are lots of people out there that are completely happy with what they got, but would it really be sooooo bad to include those that aren’t, by adding a few endings. After all, isn’t the whole feel of the game about choices affecting the outcome?

There are two groups of people here, those that support the ending, and those against the ending. Bioware has alienated the second group. Why not include both groups by keeping what’s there and then adding what should have been.

[Amioran]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...
Now you know how people feel when discussing things with you. 

Ok, ok, you are right.

X: The sun is bright this morning.
Y: What you say makes no sense, the sun is not white. Of what the hell are you talking about? All you say makes no sense.
X: I never said a thing that the sun is white, why do you put words in my mouth I never said? Morover the sun can be white depending on the situation
Y: Now you twist the point, isn't it? I see you like to do it. I never implied that the sun cannot be white but that it is not white in this moment. You so like to be dismissive, isn't it?
X: So now I am the one that twist things, I see, when I never ever stated a thing as that to begin with.
Y: You are impossible, I understand when people say that it's impossible to talk with you.

Whatever you want.

Modifié par Amioran, 02 mai 2012 - 03:46 .

[Amioran]

XTR3M3 wrote...

Artemis_Entrari wrote...


Now you know how people feel when discussing things with you. 

QFT
you just said what we all have been thinking.

Guys, are you serious?

I can understand that you are biased, but you cannot say a thing as that.

Have you read what's happened? How can you say that in this case I'm the one that twist things is really beyond me, seriously.

Why don't you try to be a little more objective, for God's sake? Do you think it does good to your cause seeing how you behave, that you cannot either see the reality of a situation just because you have to see things in a certain way? I would be so ashamed of myself if I did act the way you act. Have you not a little of dignity?

Or I am being trolled hard (it can be) or the reality is that something so low I never expected. I expected flames, I expected people twisting things, but not people that just because they had to be against me completely negated reality for this.

I assumed people could be at last a mimimum objective to see if a reasoning was ineherently flawed, or when another was saying wrong things no matter from what "part" s/he was.

Probably I was wrong.

Modifié par Amioran, 02 mai 2012 - 03:54 .

[Daniel_N7]

It's curious - to say the least - how these propositions advocating that the ending should remain unchanged never address the ending itself, objectively. It all stays in the realm of generalization, which, of course, as a debating strategy, serves only one side. You know which, don't you?

Anyway, let's NOT talk about the ending - this is the "no spoilers" forum, after all. And I have no statistics, other than the ones that have been promoted on BSN or other websites. I have an interpretation of them, subjective as it may be, and I think that the majority of people in the Mass Effect fan community didn't like the ending, and have, in fact rejected it.

Now, we may question ourselves how significant is the ME fan community in numbers, in market percentage, when confronted with the overall number of potential customers? If you consider the 2 or 3 million sales (?) of Mass Effect 3, then the people advocating change are a clear minority in relation to the silent majority who (1) may like or (2) may not like the ending, but clearly don't care enough about it to express themselves. Probably the kind of customers EA likes best.

So, the question is, does BioWare care about its fan community? Ah, yes, the fans. Those hateful, entitled whiners... Who are they, really?

They are the ones who have, in fact, been promoting Mass Effect 3 for a long time, before the game was even launched. Celebrating their love for the Mass Effect universe on fan blogs, or through fan art, or fan fiction, or cosplaying, etc...

This is a community that has been raving at every new glimpse of concept art, with every new video, with every bit of news coming from magazines or from Casey Hudson and team.
The positive, celebratory feeling coming from the ME fan community, before game launch, was incredible. We were all certain this would be the game of our lives. I said that I would buy every single piece of DLC, just as I had done with ME2, and I meant it. There was not a shadow of doubt on my mind.

And you go to those blogs now, and what do you see?... An emotional wasteland.

Now, some may say that we had such high expectations that disappointment was inevitable. I disagree. The negative reaction to the ending of Mass Effect 3 is unparalleled to anything I have seen in my life as a gamer. It wasn't a wave of discontentment, it was a tsunami. Why? Why did it happen?

Because BioWare crafted a wonderful universe of science fiction, reminiscent of the ingenuity of Star Trek and classic sci-fi novels and series, but still incredibly original and wonderfully detailed. We fell in love with it. And in the final minutes of ME3 we saw this world shattered to pieces, for no valid narrative reason, and we saw the characters we bonded so strongly, Shepard and friends, deny their very nature and the motivations they carried throughout the entire trilogy.

Shepard says, in the beginning of ME3, that "we fight or we die". And in the end we where not given a chance to fight. Maybe we will still die, but we would still choose to fight against all odds instead of giving it all up.

And this is my opinion; an opinion shared, apparently, by at least 64.000 people. The ending is, objectively, bad. Having said that, Mass Effect 3 is not my game. BioWare doesn't owe "me", personally, anything.

But as a fan, as a devoted, passionate lover of this series, I will say that I'm entitled to express this: BioWare may not owe me anything, but they have an obligation towards the Mass Effect series. They have an obligation to defend its integrity, in terms of what it represents, its values, its quality as a cohesive, narrative and artistic work. And we have the right to demand that!

And that's what at stakes here. Is the resolution of Mass Effect 3 faithful to the values of the series, or is it a violation of them? In the end, all that matters, really, is BioWare's answer to that question. Not general argumentations on whether they should or should not change the game because "some fans this" and "some fans that".

What is most regrettable, though, is that all we can interpret from BioWare's silence is that none of this matters. It all comes down to the cold-blooded analysis of the numbers, in a market perspective. And in the end of the day, looking at their pie charts and worksheets, if loosing a part of their fanbase is an acceptable collateral damage, when compared to the consequences of assuming an error, they won't care about anything else.

Not even about the future of Mass Effect.