510 réponses à ce sujet

[FJVP]

Amioran wrote...

2. Also if you think people that dislike the ending are the majority that is a totally unbased affirmation since there's no way to know for sure, one way or the other. So do you pretend a company should base an "economical targeting" based on what? Poor assumption?

3. Given #3 all you said above makes no sense at all just because a company cannot risk to lose money based on assumptions. Since they don't know the reality (these forums, YouTube, Metacritic etc. are certainly proof of anything at all) and they care about money, doing a move as that without certainity would just risk losing everything.

http://social.biowar...dex/11526308/1 

[abaris]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

No, I wasn't talking to you. I was agreeing with you, and questioning another person who claimed that BW was doing all this for money: Well, if they keep the ending, it sure seems like it's NOT all about money, does it not?

It's still about their market research and ultimately money. If they expect to not suffer any significant losses with this product or future franchises, they won't react, since it's cheaper to sit it out.

There's nothing else to it.

Modifié par abaris, 30 avril 2012 - 06:46 .

[FJVP]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

abaris wrote...

Have I said that?

OK, even though you're obviously baiting and not expecting an answer, I hand it to you anyway: If they're producing another game interesting me, I will buy it. If they don't, I won't.

As simple as that.

And since it's the obvious truth, they will react to the almighty dollar and not the fanrage from either side. If one side happens to influence their revenue, they will react.

No, I wasn't talking to you. I was agreeing with you, and questioning another person who claimed that BW was doing all this for money: Well, if they keep the ending, it sure seems like it's NOT all about money, does it not?

You don't know that. It could also be that EA considers it would be more expensive to change the ending than to keep it so they instead choose to add some extra cutscenes and hope that that will appease those who don't like it.

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

FJVP wrote...

http://social.biowar...dex/11526308/1 

Give us something scientific, not this.

Like what? Those are solid statistics acquired through a survey.

Modifié par FJVP, 30 avril 2012 - 06:47 .

[deatharmonic]

The notion of Bioware not alienating a portion of their fans I find really ironic. Anyone who was there during the DAO to DA2 fiasco will know what I mean and to an extent ME to ME2. Those events lead me to believe Bioware aren't at all bothered about neglecting parts of their fanbase.

[XTR3M3]

Amioran wrote...

XTR3M3 wrote...

I don't think it had to be one or the other. They could have done an alternate ending without jeopardizing their artistic integrity. true ME fans like more choices. BioWare doesn't have to change the ending, they could have just added more options.

more options doesn't hurt the current ending. Alternate endings are common for movies as well. the ones I have on disk with that option let you choose or watch the alternate in the bonus features section.

There are people (and many, in fact the majority - for what we can see on the trend, naturally we cannot be sure - of those that don't like the ending) that don't want the context of the ending as it is (as the Starchild) at all. In doing what you say they would still alienate those users.

The best way (and more logic, from Bioware point of view) is to simply have the thing to remain as it is now.

you assumed I meant "an alternate including the crappy casper character". I didn't. I mean one different from like just through the beam or even before that for the start of the alternate. an alternate ending without the starkid is is the best way. Leave the starkid branch in but I would have loved being able to choose an alternate branch that makes sense. The current 3 choices and Shep's out of character acceptance of the starkid's flawed logic always makes me feel like I screwed something up to get the "bad" ending or Shep was indoctrinated.

it is only your opinion that the "best way" is to leave it like it is. I don't agree with you. leaving it as is will hurt future DLC sales. They can't please everyone but they can get a big chunk of us back with an alternate ending that makes sense.

Modifié par XTR3M3, 30 avril 2012 - 06:50 .

[Amioran]

SalsaDMA wrote...

I disagree.

The point is: you disagree on what? You just replied to all another thing I wrote. Bah...

Person A: I like cheese:
Person B: I disagree; I hate lemons.

SalsaDMA wrote...
Just because there are some people that claim they like what you made, despite you knew it was atrociously bad (and let's be honest, if Bioware doesn't know how bad their ending was, they don't really deserver to be making games anymore, as they would have lost the touch then) then you have no integrity towards yourself. (there's that word.. I know...)

Also if they know the ending is bad, chaning it would still alienate some users that like it. It's totally irrelevant by now if the ending is well done or not on this point. I either written about this point in my post:

Either if the ending was really "badly written" (questionable, but whatever) this is not, by this point, anymore a plausible parameter (as explained before) on which to base the decision, because also if it is really so, some that now like the ending as it is are tied emotionally to the same, no matter what. Just like if you have a dog from an year and you then discover that it has a genetic disease, a dog breeder cannot propose to change the dog to you just because it has a problem; you would obviously react not too well to the thing.

Morover your "badly written" is based on purely subjective paramaters also if you would like the contrary. It has nothing of objective as I've already demonstrated many times proving that many of you simply don't know of what you are talking about in the majority of cases. You want to judge a narrative without having the instruments to do so, as in the fact that you lack completely the context of the same in the case of ME.

But I don't want to enter on this, so I will let this thing die here.

[Yezdigerd]

Amioran wrote...
As I said, Bioware cannot. That would be like admitting that one part of the audience (those that don't like the ending) have an opinion that matters more than those that like it. It would be like admitting one part of the audience better than the other.

Of course they can. People have different tastes. Everything can't appeal to everyone. but if you are trying to sell a product some opinions matters more then others isn't that self evident?
Besides the nice thing with a interactive medium is that you don't have a one ending for all. You can keep starchild and gimp shep, while the people who want mass effect to end narratively and thematically consistent with some decent writing can have that too.
Sunshine and rainbows for everyone.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 30 avril 2012 - 06:51 .

[Amioran]

XTR3M3 wrote...
you assumed I meant "an alternate including the crappy casper character". I didn't. I mean one different from like just through the beam or even before that for the start of the alternate. an alternate ending without the starkid is is the best way.

For you and those that don't like it, for those who like the SC it would be completely the contrary.

Again, not everybody think the same. Those who like the SC then? Are they going to be alienated just because you (in the general sense of those who don't like the SC) don't want it?

What you say makes no sense from a company point of view that has to consider ALL its audience. Your opinion has no more importance than that of the others for Bioware, as it is right that it is. Naturally for you it has, but you are an individual, not a company that has to care about the totality of the picture.

[zninjazzero]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

zninjazzero wrote...

Alright, so first: It most certainly does matter where the majority stand.  This isn't a matter of two equal groups arguing.  By all measures, the people who dislike the ending vastly, vastly outnumber the people who liked it.  And you're saying Bioware shouldn't make a decision based on a rather small percentage of their fanbase, rather than make a different decision that would upset a much larger portion of their fanbase.  You present a false equivalency.  Bioware should be trying to please the largest portion of their fanbase, not the smallest.  That's a) good business and good manners.  You cannot treat every faction of an audience as the same.  That makes no logical sense.

Second:The ending is badly written. That is not questionable.

1. Give us some scientific proof and that might be valid. Until then, though, it isn't.

2. The only thing truly "bad" about the ending was the lack of exposition. Nothing else was bad about it. That is not questionable.

1. If you want to pull science into this, don't use the phrase "scientific proof".  This isn't the kind of thing you can prove unless you force everyone that's played to fill out a survey.  But every poll, every single poll, supports this claim.  Every shred of evidence there has been in the past 2 months, whether valid, invalid, scientific, or circumstantial, supports the claim that the majority dislike the ending.  It is on you, then, to show some evidence that there is a plurality that likes it.

2. The betrayal of themes, the lack of choice impact, the lack of war assets impact (in a sensical way, at least), the out of character actions of Shepard, the arbitrary choice of endings, the lack of variation in endings, the nigh uncountable plot holes, and the only thing you will acknowledge as bad is that you don't learn what happens next?  If you're not aware of all the things wrong with the ending already, then you haven't been looking.  You can't enter a debate if you haven't been briefed on the topic.

[Amioran]

Yezdigerd wrote...
Of course they can. People have different tastes. Everything can't appeal to everyone. but if you are trying to sell a product some opinions matters more then others isn't that self evident?

No if you don't have basis to judge which matters most.

In this case there is no basis.

Yezdigerd wrote...
Besides the nice thing with a interactive medium is that you don't have a one ending for all. You can keep starchild and gimp shep, while the people who want mass effect to end narratively and thematically consistent with some decent writing can have that too.
Sunshine and rainbows for everyone.

You cannot keep the SC in an ending and remove it in another. It would make no sense at all because the SC is the full motivation behind the thematic. That would require changing the ending, that, again, would alienate some users.

[Amioran]

FJVP wrote...

Amioran wrote...

2. Also if you think people that dislike the ending are the majority that is a totally unbased affirmation since there's no way to know for sure, one way or the other. So do you pretend a company should base an "economical targeting" based on what? Poor assumption?

3. Given #3 all you said above makes no sense at all just because a company cannot risk to lose money based on assumptions. Since they don't know the reality (these forums, YouTube, Metacritic etc. are certainly proof of anything at all) and they care about money, doing a move as that without certainity would just risk losing everything.

http://social.biowar...dex/11526308/1 

Should that survey mean something? Have you seen how much people partecipated? They are neither the 0.01% of all people who played the game.

To not to talk about the fact that those that voted are obviously more on the "change" pow, given that complaining is a best motivation than liking to lose time on a poll.

Modifié par Amioran, 30 avril 2012 - 06:56 .

[Amioran]

deatharmonic wrote...

The notion of Bioware not alienating a portion of their fans I find really ironic. Anyone who was there during the DAO to DA2 fiasco will know what I mean and to an extent ME to ME2. Those events lead me to believe Bioware aren't at all bothered about neglecting parts of their fanbase.

That's another thing. They did it BEFORE. This would be doing AFTER the product has shipped.

You can try something new before and fail, doing it after would be 100 times worser.

And anyway, apart this, it didn't seem to me that it did good to them doing so, isn't it? So you are actually proving my point.

[Dead_Meat357]

They can most certainly change the ending. An ending DLC would be optional for those who liked the original endings as they stand. It also doesn't effect what's canon either because the Arrival still happened even if you didn't participate in that DLC. So what you played or did not play never has effected the story to a large degree outside of the variables within the game altered for your Shepards. ME1 still happened even if you didn't play it and so on. Those two issues are really the only things that stand in the way of a new ending outside of financial concerns and the artistic integrity argument.

The ending to Fallout was changed over less of a visceral reaction than ours. And as the guy above me pointed out, they've already changed the games by releasing DLC's for ME1 and ME2. The Arrival is a kind of epilogue for Mass Effect 2. So again, I don't think your argument is valid.

Modifié par Dead_Meat357, 30 avril 2012 - 07:02 .

[XTR3M3]

Amioran wrote...

XTR3M3 wrote...
you assumed I meant "an alternate including the crappy casper character". I didn't. I mean one different from like just through the beam or even before that for the start of the alternate. an alternate ending without the starkid is is the best way.

For you and those that don't like it, for those who like the SC it would be completely the contrary.

Again, not everybody think the same. Those who like the SC then? Are they going to be alienated just because you (in the general sense of those who don't like the SC) don't want it?

What you say makes no sense from a company point of view that has to consider ALL its audience. Your opinion has no more importance than that of the others for Bioware, as it is right that it is. Naturally for you it has, but you are an individual, not a company that has to care about the totality of the picture.

are you being deliberately obtuse? ADDING to the current ending options WILL consider ALL its audience a lot better then doing nothing. I would say that BioWare would agree that doing SOMETHING is better than nothing seeing as how they are releasing EC DLC for FREE. For your argument to hold water, they would have to not be releasing the EC DLC. They are already planning on changing the ending by adding to it which is all I said I wished they would do. Your whole premise of the "not changing the ending" is moot as they are already working on it.

How would you even know the "company point of view"? Do you have BioWare inside information unavailable to the rest of us?

Modifié par XTR3M3, 30 avril 2012 - 07:06 .

[Amioran]

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

They can most certainly change the ending. An ending DLC would be optional for those who liked the original endings as they stand.

I thougth about this, but then, pondering the thing a little better, I've come to the conclusion that it will not be a good solution simply because of the way people see DLC. It would be seen anyway not as a "second pow" but as the primary one (as a rectification) and the result would be the same as changing the ending to start with.

Morover the intention would be the same as chaning the ending, i.e. with the intention you alienate a part of the users.

Dead_Meat357 wrote...
The ending to Fallout was changed over less of a visceral reaction than ours.

If you read my post in full I already replied to this. Fallout ending was not changed in the context as people pretend ME ending to change.

The two things are different.

Modifié par Amioran, 30 avril 2012 - 07:04 .

[abaris]

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

The ending to Fallout was changed over less of a visceral reaction than ours.

And you can be sure it changed because of market research.

A largely ignored fact is that we're talking foremost about products. If you strip all the fancy bits away, it's the same as your average roll of toilet paper. And when selling a product the expectation of revenue is all that matters.

So, we can beat this to death all we want, but ultimately they will change or not change. Depending on their own research that will include sold units as well as public reception and the prospect of losing or keeping credibility with future franchises and/or DLCs.

[Amioran]

XTR3M3 wrote...
are you being deliberately obtuse?

It's more that you like to read only what you like to read.

XTR3M3 wrote...
ADDING to the current ending options WILL consider ALL its audience a lot better then doing nothing.

I already explained that the SC is part of the context of the ending. You cannot create a "branch" (as you call it) that rewrite the context without changing the ending as it is. It doesn't work this way (every writer can tell you this; hell everyone that has a little of knowledge of how writing works can tell you this). That would be really and objectively bad writing (and not what many people consider as such) because it will make absolutely no sense. If a player would try one "branch" than another it would be a disaster, really. When the context falls there's no more narrative.

Do you imagine? Two endings that have a completely different contexts. You don't know what you are asking for.. (if you judge this ending bad I imagine what you will say if a thing as that happened).

XTR3M3 wrote...
I would say that BioWare would agree that doing SOMETHING is better than nothing seeing as how they are releasing EC DLC for FREE.

They are doing something. They are adding more closure to the ending already present. This is the best they can do given what I've explained.

XTR3M3 wrote...
For you argument to hold water, they would have to not be releasing the EC DLC.

Again, have you read anything at all of what I wrote? Reread the primary post, there's nothing wrong on releasing the EC, because it doesn't change the context of the ending (i.e. the ending as it is, at the root, it remains the same). This doesn't alienate anybody (or not in the same way of a full ending). It is still a risky move for various motives (that I already explained, again, in my original post) but it's the best solution the could come with given the current situation.

XTR3M3 wrote...
How would you even know the "company point of view"? Do you have BioWare inside information unavailable to the rest of us?

Simple common sense. You cannot make a choice based on arbitrary parameters if you have to consider the full picture. A company has to take care of all users in the same way. It is the same difference from the State and the individual, for example.

Modifié par Amioran, 30 avril 2012 - 07:17 .

[XTR3M3]

abaris wrote...

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

The ending to Fallout was changed over less of a visceral reaction than ours.

And you can be sure it changed because of market research.

A largely ignored fact is that we're talking foremost about products. If you strip all the fancy bits away, it's the same as your average roll of toilet paper. And when selling a product the expectation of revenue is all that matters.

So, we can beat this to death all we want, but ultimately they will change or not change. Depending on their own research that will include sold units as well as public reception and the prospect of losing or keeping credibility with future franchises and/or DLCs.

QFT
@ Amioran
you cite "context". That is our problem with casper. he is out of context and doesn't follow the rest of the game context. He is an "out of the blue at the last second" NPC which is the very opposite of context. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree as I don't agree with your opinions and you don't agree with mine. I spoke my piece so I will let you onto your next debate.

Modifié par XTR3M3, 30 avril 2012 - 07:20 .

[Yezdigerd]

Amioran wrote...
No if you don't have basis to judge which matters most. In this case there is no basis.

I'm sure Bioware runs polls, surveys and have people counting so there should be some.

You cannot keep the SC in an ending and remove it in another. It would make no sense at all because the SC is the full motivation behind the thematic. That would require changing the ending, that, again, would alienate some users.

Well I guess it will always be on your disc. If you like the ending while the larger consumer and fanbase find it repugnant it will suck to be you. Your only hope is that the beancounters doesn't  find it worth the resources to change.

[Amioran]

Yezdigerd wrote...
I'm sure Bioware runs polls, surveys and have people counting so there should be some.

As you can be sure that they know perfectly that they mean very little in the end.

And either if they (for some miracle) would be able to have a perfect picture and if that picture means, for example, 80% who dislike the ending and want it changed and 20% that like it as it is, they couldn't change the ending because they would alienate the 20%.

They would alienate it because the change would be based on a purely arbitrary parameter, i.e. opinion. Either if an opinion has more popularity than another, it still has no more importance just for this. The 20% would take the thing as a total insult, because they would feel their opinion inferior to others on absolutely no basis, because "more people" it's not a basis for it to mean: "better".

[Mike_Kerr]

Why does everyone hate the ending? I thought it was just awesome.