510 réponses à ce sujet

[Dan Dark]

Right, I'm not bothering reading the massive walls of text making up this thread, so... just throwing this out there. While I do not share your opinion, OP, there is a very simple way we could both be satisfied - add new endings. Keep the current ones as they are, and add additional choices for those who want them. Everybody wins.

[Tirigon]

Amioran wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
So we are down to "if you dont like it, you are stupid and didnt understand?"

OK.

Where did you extrapolate this from what I said to you is beyond me.

I only said that those judgments lack the context of the narrative so they are faulted from beginning (and specified why that's so).

That is pretty much the same, and at any rate it is wrong because there is no complicated narrative idea or anything behind it. Mass Effect is an average Sci-Fi story that lives from a few memorable points in the stories, great characters like Liara, BioWare's formerly great reputation and, mostly, because it has no contesters right now. There is no philosophical or narrative background to consider.

You see, on the contrary it's not me that do a thing as what you say, because it's not me that continue to insist that others opinions are less important and valide (and don't say you don't do it, because it is implied when you post something as "Bioware should recover their mistakes").

They are not less important but indeed less valid. Some opinions are simply WRONG, period.
If I believe the sky is made from purple cheese and smells of icecream, I am entitled to that opinion but it is still not true.

It can be, but this doesn't change the fact that they didn't consider the context at all in their judgment. They could have naturally done so to have a point, but I consider this much worser than simply having enough knowledge to express a judgment.

See above. No context to consider.

If you say so. Naturally you don't explain why, but who cares, your opinion is obviously more important, ins't it?

Giving an OPTIONAL DLC to change the ending to something less r*tarded does not infringe on the opinion of those few who liked it.

There's your explanation.

I already explained why it does in many posts above. You can take one of those replies and tell me why what I say is wrong instead of restarting everything from beginning.

I dont feel like searching through 7 pages just to find arguments I have already proven wrong in the bolded above.

[Amioran]

Dan Dark wrote...

Right, I'm not bothering reading the massive walls of text making up this thread, so... just throwing this out there. While I do not share your opinion, OP, there is a very simple way we could both be satisfied - add new endings. Keep the current ones as they are, and add additional choices for those who want them. Everybody wins.

I replied to this already, but I will reply the same from another angle.

I make you an example: if Bioware was going to insert an option you absolutely care nothing about and on the contrary you find completely wrong and stupid in your opinion, it would be fine for you that they would lose time to add it while they could, with that same time, make something completely different and that you like or that at last you could?

Reply sincerely. Again, we come to the "tolerance" point. The fact is, many of those that don't like the ending are not tolerant vs. the others that like it, but this is the same also for the other end. An individual cares most, usually, to his/her other end of the bargain. And since those people are not more important than you, they have the same weight for what it concerns the choice of Bioware on the matter.

The thing you insist that would be the "best of both worlds" would just mean losing time on something more productive for those that find the same unnecessary (since they like the game as it is). This naturally to be added to all the other reasons I already mentioned.

P.S: Now, you see, I lost a bit of time replying this to you, then comes another one in 2-3 pages that ask the same thing and I have to redo everything from beginning just because s/he doesn't care to look back a bit and continue from there.

How can I do a thing as this? It's impossible.

[AkiKishi]

Amioran wrote...
I replied to this already, but I will reply the same from another angle.

I make you an example: if Bioware was going to insert an option you absolutely care nothing about and on the contrary you find completely wrong and stupid in your opinion, it would be fine for you that they would lose time to add it while they could, with that same time, make something completely different and that you like or that at last you could?

Reply sincerely. Again, we come to the "tolerance" point. The fact is, many of those that don't like the ending are not tolerant vs. the others that like it, but this is the same also for the other end. An individual cares most, usually, to his/her other end of the bargain. And since those people are not more important than you, they have the same weight for what it concerns the choice of Bioware on the matter.

The thing you insist that would be the "best of both worlds" would just mean losing time on something more productive for those that find the same unnecessary (since they like the game as it is). This naturally to be added to all the other reasons I already mentioned.

P.S: Now, you see, I lost a bit of time replying this to you, then comes another one in 2-3 pages that ask the same thing and I have to redo everything from beginning just because s/he doesn't care to look back a bit and continue from there.

How can I do a thing as this? It's impossible.

Games production cycle is over logic fails. It's not like adding a feature in an ongoing game. More like a desperate grab to get back some of the people they alienated with their shady practices and terrible ending.

Unless there is some big secret project anything Bioware is working on is in the early stages and does not require the people who are making EC yet.

[Doctor Uburian]

Amioran wrote...

Dan Dark wrote...

Right, I'm not bothering reading the massive walls of text making up this thread, so... just throwing this out there. While I do not share your opinion, OP, there is a very simple way we could both be satisfied - add new endings. Keep the current ones as they are, and add additional choices for those who want them. Everybody wins.

I replied to this already, but I will reply the same from another angle.

I make you an example: if Bioware was going to insert an option you absolutely care nothing about and on the contrary you find completely wrong and stupid in your opinion, it would be fine for you that they would lose time to add it while they could, with that same time, make something completely different and that you like or that at last you could?

Reply sincerely. Again, we come to the "tolerance" point. The fact is, many of those that don't like the ending are not tolerant vs. the others that like it, but this is the same also for the other end. An individual cares most, usually, to his/her other end of the bargain. And since those people are not more important than you, they have the same weight for what it concerns the choice of Bioware on the matter.

The thing you insist that would be the "best of both worlds" would just mean losing time on something more productive for those that find the same unnecessary (since they like the game as it is). This naturally to be added to all the other reasons I already mentioned.

P.S: Now, you see, I lost a bit of time replying this to you, then comes another one in 2-3 pages that ask the same thing and I have to redo everything from beginning just because s/he doesn't care to look back a bit and continue from there.

How can I do a thing as this? It's impossible.

So, as long as you have the power to do something, and only you think that it is the right thing to do, it automatically becomes the right thing to do? Yeah, sure.

Of course, bioware can just abandon their original loyal fans in orden to adquiere some new ones, but they will lose their identity on the process, and the only right they will maintain over the saga is the publication one.

And the world is much more than a monstrous pile of useless bureaucratic laws.

 

Modifié par Doctor Uburian, 01 mai 2012 - 02:27 .

[Amioran]

Tirigon wrote...
That is pretty much the same, and at any rate it is wrong because there is no complicated narrative idea or anything behind it. Mass Effect is an average Sci-Fi story that lives from a few memorable points in the stories, great characters like Liara, BioWare's formerly great reputation and, mostly, because it has no contesters right now. There is no philosophical or narrative background to consider.

If you say so. I beg to disagree and I can either do so with proof, but as I said this is not the thread to do such. If we start debating about the ending being "good" or "bad" then we will go completely off-topic and with the risk of the thread being closed or moved.

Tirigon wrote...
They are not less important but indeed less valid. Some opinions are simply WRONG, period.

An opinion cannot be wrong. You are talking about judgments. Those can be wrong.
 
However, when you talk about things as a narrative, while there are objective parameters to base a judgment upon, a large part of the same is tied to personal opinion. In art there's always a part of opinion, and that part only pertains to personal preference.

Tirigon wrote...
If I believe the sky is made from purple cheese and smells of icecream, I am entitled to that opinion but it is still not true.

The sky is not an abstract concept, it has very little of "opinion" (in the sense of your example). For art, and a narrative, it is different.

And anyway, also objectively what you say could not be wrong. If you have an astral projection it can be that the sky is really in that way, so which opinion was wrong? You see, every statement contains a contradiction in itself.

See above. No context to consider.

See above the same. The fact that you think so it doesn't make it true. You talk of objectivity here and yet objectively I could prove you wrong easily if this was the place.

So, let's pretend that you were proven wrong, would that change something? Your opinion of the ending would remain the same, I'm sure. You would have some other parameters to make probably an objective judgment, but your total opinion would not much probably change, I assure you, because judgment and opinion (while having common aspects) are not the same.

I dont feel like searching through 7 pages just to find arguments I have already proven wrong in the bolded above.

You can find one above if you are lazy..

[Amioran]

Doctor Uburian wrote...
So, as long as you have the power to do something, and only you think that it is the right thing to do, it automatically becomes the right thing to do? Yeah, sure.

Of course, bioware can just abandon their original loyal fans in orden to adquiere some new ones, but they will lose their identity on the process, and the only right they will maintain over the saga is the publication one.

And the world is much more than a monstrous pile of useless bureaucratic laws.

Excuse me, but seriously I cannot get what these things you replied have to do with what I said in my post.

Can you please explain it to me better? Especially the first sentence, because I don't understand the correlation.

Thanks.

Modifié par Amioran, 01 mai 2012 - 02:31 .

[Dan Dark]

How does your reply to my post make any sense? You talk about tolerance, but aren't exactly showing much yourself. And what was your main point? "Since not everyone will like it, they shouldn't even bother?" I would think any self-respecting company would try to please as many fans as possible.

[Amioran]

Dan Dark wrote...

How does your reply to my post make any sense? You talk about tolerance, but aren't exactly showing much yourself. And what was your main point? "Since not everyone will like it, they shouldn't even bother?" I would think any self-respecting company would try to please as many fans as possible.

Have you read it? I made you a practical example about it.

How can you say it makes no sense? Reply to that example within yourself, you will understand what I mean by it.

But I will try again in other words: you, A, ask for Y changing X. B doesn't like to change X. You say that the best for both worlds would do an add to X to have the option to insert Y. I said that since B doesn't like the idea of Y to begin with they will consider the work done on the same (to add it, either) as a waste of time better spent for something else, as for example more content of other type etc.

What's so difficult to understand? If you don't like something it's obvious that you would prefer the company not lose time on it for something you could like more, isn't it?

This was in reply to yours: "why adding an optional branch would not be a good idea"? And that's one of the motives, along the many others I've mentioned. This motive is purely about time spent on doing the work (and people don't like time spent on things they don't like, I assure you), others have more to do with the decision in itself.

Maube you are looking at the thing as if ME is actually thinking so. Not at all. I actually try to let you see the thing from a more ample spectrum, as Bioware has to do, for example.

Modifié par Amioran, 01 mai 2012 - 02:39 .

[Doctor Uburian]

Amioran wrote...

Doctor Uburian wrote...
So, as long as you have the power to do something, and only you think that it is the right thing to do, it automatically becomes the right thing to do? Yeah, sure.

Of course, bioware can just abandon their original loyal fans in orden to adquiere some new ones, but they will lose their identity on the process, and the only right they will maintain over the saga is the publication one.

And the world is much more than a monstrous pile of useless bureaucratic laws.

Excuse me, but seriously I cannot get what these things you replied have to do with what I said in my post.

Can you please explain it to me better? Especially the first sentence, because I don't understand the correlation.

Thanks.

No problem.

What i'm trying to say is that bioware (the Lead developer specially) have made a bad use of their power. There is no real reson for wich bioware should have created an ending full of plotholes and sadness .

If they didn't have the resources to create a good and diverse collection of endings, they should have not started the project in the first place.

Modifié par Doctor Uburian, 01 mai 2012 - 02:38 .

[MrMcDoll]

Wow, you are so unbelievably hostile!
Insulting my intellect?
Calling me a child?

You really won't listen to reason eh?

Oh and reductio ad absurdem is 18 letters
"extrapolated to ridiculous logical conclusions" is a little more don't you think?

So no, I wasn't just quoting wikipedia, I was trying to exhibit a little brevity in my posts, as opposed to massive walls of vitriol and waffling conjecture to attempt to make myself appear intelligent - a la YOU.

Furthermore, if you DID actually know anything about Descartes and his form of scepticism, you would know that it is classed as a form of relative subjectivism - that his very quote of "i think, therefore i am" was in reference to his coming to the conclusion of his sceptical hypothesis, that he existed to do the thinking, thus he could establish (with the added belief in a benevolent, guiding god) that he had a sound basis for knowledge - using his sceptical hypothesis but removing the reliance on a deity to assure the existence of reality, you CAN "take the argument to ridiculous logical conclusions" (happy?) and argue against any form of objective fact.

But then you would rather just make typical asinine judgement calls and insult people wouldn't you?

The whole reason for my post was to warn others not to bother engaging you because you are as stubborn as an ass. (and this is the point at which you would make an implication about a similar level of intelligence - but see how I didn't? - that is an example of maturity!! Cool huh?)

You think that the massive charity drives, the cupcakes, the THOUSANDS of videos from many different uploaders and the massive bad feedback ALL OVER the internet AREN'T good evidence to suggest that a lot of people are disgruntled?

You think that you aren't a hypocrite by stating that you wish for people to be respectful and civil in your OP, but to then personally insult us if we disagree? To make judgement calls about what kind of people we are?

Continue to be blinded by your own superiority complex then.

You are the kind of person that makes the internet such a sh**ty sh**ty place.

Modifié par MrMcDoll, 01 mai 2012 - 02:50 .

[Amioran]

Doctor Uburian wrote...
No problem.

What i'm trying to say is that bioware (the Lead developer specially) have made a bad use of their power. There is no real reson for wich bioware should have created an ending full of plotholes and sadness .

If they didn't have the resources to create a good and diverse collection of endings, they should have not started the project in the first place.

What you say can or cannot be true, but, you see, at the point we are now it matters little.

There are people that like the product and people who don't. Since "liking" is a matter of opinion you cannot take a decision on what to do based on that, because it's an arbitrary parameter.

Naturally, since you believe that the ending is badly done you consider those objective parameters to require a change, but since there's no a full consensus on those parameters to begin with, and since a story apart those is also composed of parameters that goes beyond objectivity (i.e. one can like a painting objectively bad, for example) then the decision will still be arbitrary in the sense that will prefer one point of view for not fully objective parameters.

[Doctor Uburian]

Amioran wrote...

Doctor Uburian wrote...
No problem.

What i'm trying to say is that bioware (the Lead developer specially) have made a bad use of their power. There is no real reson for wich bioware should have created an ending full of plotholes and sadness .

If they didn't have the resources to create a good and diverse collection of endings, they should have not started the project in the first place.

What you say can or cannot be true, but, you see, at the point we are now it matters little.

There are people that like the product and people who don't. Since "liking" is a matter of opinion you cannot take a decision on what to do based on that, because it's an arbitrary parameter.

Naturally, since you believe that the ending is badly done you consider those objective parameters to require a change, but since there's no a full consensus on those parameters to begin with, and since a story apart those is also composed of parameters that goes beyond objectivity (i.e. one can like a painting objectively bad, for example) then the decision will still be arbitrary in the sense that will prefer one point of view for not fully objective parameters.

Well, the endings are not only badly done, they are also offensive, and nothing more than a bad copy of the foundation saga's ending. 

I don't know wich world do you live in, but in mine, plagiarism is not considered artistic 

[SovereignWillReturn]

OP I agree with what you say, but honestly, the ending was half-assed and rushed. Take a look around the forum, you can see there were +4 priority missions cut including Admiral Xen going crazy, and there was LOTS cut from the ending. There are 5 animated scenes that were cut, plust full minutes of unused dialogue.

So, the ending, love it or hate it, is the ending. I want Bioware to give me a full, complete, and memorable ending, not a hashed and mashed ending.

[abaris]

Doctor Uburian wrote...

Well, the endings are not only badly done, they are also offensive, and nothing more than a bad copy of the foundation saga's ending. 

I don't know wich world do you live in, but in mine, plagiarism is not considered artistic 

The endings combine the worst in literature and storytelling throughout the centuries. They even manage to break the dramatic rules set up by Aristoteles.

I'm not sure if under these circumstance anyone would stand up and claim to be plagiarised.

[Doctor Uburian]

abaris wrote...

Doctor Uburian wrote...

Well, the endings are not only badly done, they are also offensive, and nothing more than a bad copy of the foundation saga's ending. 

I don't know wich world do you live in, but in mine, plagiarism is not considered artistic 

The endings combine the worst in literature and storytelling throughout the centuries. They even manage to break the dramatic rules set up by Aristoteles.

I'm not sure if under these circumstance anyone would stand up and claim to be plagiarised.

Well, they are also very similar to the original DeusEx endings. I don't know how someone could consider ME3 endings ¨original¨.

[AkiKishi]

abaris wrote...

Doctor Uburian wrote...

Well, the endings are not only badly done, they are also offensive, and nothing more than a bad copy of the foundation saga's ending. 

I don't know wich world do you live in, but in mine, plagiarism is not considered artistic 

The endings combine the worst in literature and storytelling throughout the centuries. They even manage to break the dramatic rules set up by Aristoteles.

I'm not sure if under these circumstance anyone would stand up and claim to be plagiarised.

In Deus Ex they fit the setting. It's even in the title of the game.

[SovereignWillReturn]

BobSmith101 wrote...

abaris wrote...

Doctor Uburian wrote...

Well, the endings are not only badly done, they are also offensive, and nothing more than a bad copy of the foundation saga's ending. 

I don't know wich world do you live in, but in mine, plagiarism is not considered artistic 

The endings combine the worst in literature and storytelling throughout the centuries. They even manage to break the dramatic rules set up by Aristoteles.

I'm not sure if under these circumstance anyone would stand up and claim to be plagiarised.

In Deus Ex they fit the setting. It's even in the title of the game.

Deus Ex with a Deus Ex?
WE NEED TO GO DEEPER
Deus Ex in the Deus Ex HR, That creates a future DeusEx.

[MrMcDoll]

It's not just the DEUS EX that's a concern, but the DEUS EX riding on a MC GUFFIN straight out of DEUS EX and DEUS EX HR!!!

[abaris]

Doctor Uburian wrote...

Well, they are also very similar to the original DeusEx endings. I don't know how someone could consider ME3 endings ¨original¨.

No, they're certainly not. I never played Deus Ex, so I take your word for it, but even in themselves the endings accumulate quite a few very bad tricks from the writers toolbox. Shiny boy and his appearance certainly being in the lead role.

[MrMcDoll]

I reckon it's more to do with the whole "this thing will stop the reapers"
"what is that thing?"
"dunno"
"what does it do?"
"umm..."
"okay so how do you know it will stop the reapers?"
"WE NEED IT TO!!!"
"works for me!"

[MrMcDoll]

slyguy200 wrote...


I repeated the same thing because your reply walked right into it., simple. That is, if i honestly did repeat what i said before. Insulting my intelligence, there you go again. You often used text walls when dealing with people, i never felt the need to read them, and therefor never get involved. I don't think that i repeated anything, you must not have read it.

Don't bother man, see the sh*t he/she/it wrote to me?

Childish as all hell and a stuck record at that!

"Everything is an opinion, Can't upset current fans, Can't change already released product (except for other kinds of dlc) because we can't weigh the opinions of haters vs lovers, No way to objectively prove endings are bad, I won't repeat myself, [insert asinine comment about your intellect]"

There, I pretty much answered on OP's behalf

[Amioran]

MrMcDoll wrote...
Furthermore, if you DID actually know anything about Descartes and his form of scepticism, you would know that it is classed as a form of relative subjectivism - that his very quote of "i think, therefore i am" was in reference to his coming to the conclusion of his sceptical hypothesis, that he existed to do the thinking, thus he could establish (with the added belief in a benevolent, guiding god) that he had a sound basis for knowledge - using his sceptical hypothesis but removing the reliance on a deity to assure the existence of reality, you CAN "take the argument to ridiculous logical conclusions" (happy?) and argue against any form of objective fact.

1. Again all of this has nothing to do neither with the thread, neither to what I wrote, and neither to what you wrote before (either if you think it does).

2. You don't need to do that with already subjective parameters, or things that have anyway an aspect of those in themselves, so again, all you say makes no sense at all.

3. I don't need a lecture on Cartesio, thanks. Apart the fact that the methodical doubt has at its basic the concept that every sentence contains a contradiction, so it applies to everything and everybody can do the same (and they do it, either involuntarily, it is a process of language), so all you say it's, as I said, completely out of context just because of this, it is hilarous to think that the process in fact brings to the "epilogue" of considering a "malevolent entity" at the background of everything, so as to see things from a sort of "conspiracy bubble" a thing you obviously are doing. So are you sure that all of this was, indeed, referred to me and not just your confession of the day?

MrMcDoll wrote...
You think that the massive charity drives, the cupcakes, the THOUSANDS of videos from many different uploaders and the massive bad feedback ALL OVER the internet AREN'T good evidence to suggest that a lot of people are disgruntled?

Never said that I don't consider a lot of people angry. I said that nobody cannot be sure of the FULL picture of the thing, i.e. nobody cannot be sure of how many are those that like/don't like and in those who are those that either care about a change to begin with.

MrMcDoll wrote...
You think that you aren't a hypocrite by stating that you wish for people to be respectful and civil in your OP, but to then personally insult us if we disagree? To make judgement calls about what kind of people we are?

There are many ways to insult people, and direct insults are in fact many times slight form of them.
A much more insulting way is not replying anything to what the other say (and lost time to do so in detail) for then talking in 3rd person from a pedestal to the audience using concepts that have nothing to do with both the thread nor what the other is talking about just to try to provoke the same.

Surely it's more subtle, I give you that, but I would not consider that less insulting at all.

MrMcDoll wrote...
You are the kind of person that makes the internet such a sh**ty sh**ty place.

Since you don't like this place (since the thread is mine) can you please avoid posting from now on? Thanks.

[AkiKishi]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Deus Ex with a Deus Ex?
WE NEED TO GO DEEPER
Deus Ex in the Deus Ex HR, That creates a future DeusEx.

Take away the Adam voice overs and meeting Eliza earlier in the game and you have ME3.

You arrive at the end, get told to press a button by an AI you have never met before and then everything is destroyed.

The difference between a good story and pulling it out of your ass in the last 5 minutes.