60 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

I approve. Blood magic needs more recognition in-game. As does Templar and Reaver and... well... every spec.

Unfortunately, it's not easily done, as has been said already.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 12:11 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

John Epler wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I understand that resources are a problem, but as a player I respond to what I have been offered in the past. To me resources are not my concern. The story and gameplay are my concern. I know that you guys can be great in those. I have seen it before. But that same resource problem made DA2 to what it was. I won't bother you with waves of foes and the like. Still, I like to mention the rationalizations to keep the story railroaded because these hurt the story telling. That too felt like it was done for economic reasons.

And again, that does not mean I don't respect you guys for the work you are doing. I just respond to what I experience in DA2 and look at what you promise through those eyes.

Nothing wrong with this at all. Resources -aren't- your concern as a consumer of an entertainment product. You care about how the game plays and feels, and that's it. However, I would suggest that, when you're in discussion with developers before a game has been released, you're in a slightly different position. You can (and should!) make suggestions and proposals based on what you want in a game - but if you want to engage in discussion, the reality of limited resources has to be taken into consideration. Again, that's not to say that you should refrain from making requests because 'oh, they may not have the resources', but it does help make the conversation rather more productive all around when it's kept in mind.

There is another side to this. I am well aware that you do not have unlimited resources. However, I am not willing to bargain just now. You see, there are also people on this forum that are going to use those arguments whenever they feel that BW needs a defense when a feature request pops up. Of course that's fine, but I am not willing to make concessions before hand, especially when it concerns main issues. It does not serve my purpose to getting side tracked like that. But then again asking for a forth class, or something equally silly, is something I'll try not to do. BW is, of course, the final judge. They should be.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 01 mai 2012 - 12:14 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Fandango9641 wrote...


Listening to David Gaider talk a little about the nature of blood magic at the recent Pax panel, I was struck with just how much potential it has as a challenging roleplaying device. I mean, the power of blood magic is such that one might be tempted to use it in nefarious ways right - but at what cost? Does anyone else think it might be cool to have DA3 challenge players to walk a fine line between benevolence and wickedness?

You can do this with any class.

Dragon Age is full of examples of non-mages abusing their abilities and influences. Such stories can be interesting, but they should not be restricted to (blood) mages.

[TEWR]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

You can do this with any class.

Dragon Age is full of examples of non-mages abusing their abilities and influences. Such stories can be interesting, but they should not be restricted to (blood) mages.

Indeed. The Warden made a decent case for being a corrupt bastard on any type of playthrough. Awakening even did some of this, to an extent.

It can all be excused because of the whole Warden mantra "The Blight changes everything" and "We do what we have to in order to defeat the Darkspawn". However you could just as easily say that the Warden was doing that not because of the Blight, but because he was just a douchebag abusing -- depending on how you view the Order -- the status of being a Warden.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 12:34 .

[Corker]

ReallyRue wrote...

Someone in another thread something that I thought was very intriguing - about how interesting it would be if the main character had a choice to make a deal with a demon (or use blood magic) in order to save a loved one's life.

Er... didn't we do that in DAO?  

"Some would call it blood magic, but that is but a name" - Morrigan, proposing the Dark Ritual

Edit: I suppose it didn't save a loved one's life (unless one romanced Alistair) but she does suggest that it would spare a LI the pain of the Warden dying. 

Modifié par Corker, 01 mai 2012 - 12:34 .

[Dakota Strider]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I dislike the extent to which blood magic is becoming the applied phlebotinum of Thedas.

Want to create a golem army? Blood magic.
Want to clean a mirror of taint? Blood magic.
Want to enter the Golden City? Blood magic.
Want to trap a demon? Blood magic.
Want to do battle with a demon? Blood magic.
Want to have a serial killer? He's a blood mage.
Want someone to become a monster? He's a blood mage.
Want to have an Old God Baby? Blood magic.
Want to conquer Thedas? Have your leaders all be blood mages.
Want a city where the mages all get possessed? Give it a history of blood magic.
Want to stick a demon in a Templar? Blood magic.
Want to curse people with lycanthropy? I think that was blood magic.
Want to taint the ashes of Andreste? Blood magic.
Want to track missing a mage? Blood magic.
Want to create Grey Wardens? Blood magic.

Even the dragon cults drink blood and that appears to give them a special relationship with the dragon, possibly making another it form of blood magic.

I wish blood magic had its own strengths and limitations, an actual Fifth School, as opposed to being Magic++.

OMG  I am actually agreeing with Maria about something. 

I will also add, I do not want to have companions forced on us, that have already gone down the path of Blood Magic.  In DAO, Blood Magic was a specialization, but you had the option not to give it to any of the party mages.  Not so in DA2.   And in DA2, which party member did the Templar's go after:  The mage/abomination, the elven blood mage, or the human with healing specialty?    You get a cookie if you get it right.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 01 mai 2012 - 01:07 .

[TEWR]

Dakota Strider wrote...

I will also add, I do not want to have companions forced on us, that have already gone down the path of Blood Magic. In DAO, Blood Magic was a specialization, but you had the option not to give it to any of the party mages. Not so in DA2. And in DA2, which party member did the Templar's go after: The mage/abomination, the elven blood mage, or the human with healing specialty? You get a cookie if you get it right.

I have cake, so I don't need any cookies.

Though here's my serious response to the issue of the blood mage companion.

It's down the page a bit. Sixth from the bottom. You could maybe gain some pretty massive Rivalry as a result of doing such a thing and maybe a conversation that might lead the player to thinking they could do something about it without jeopardizing the safety of said person.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 01:18 .

[Cantina]

Blood magic is EVIL...EVIL!


But that being said, I would find it interesting to see a group of crazy blood mages who worship the Darkspawn.

Modifié par Cantina, 01 mai 2012 - 01:47 .

[TEWR]

Cantina wrote...

Blood magic is EVIL...EVIL!


But that being said, I would find it interesting to see a group of crazy blood mage who worship the Darkspawn.

You know the lore actually states something similar to that happened. I don't know if blood mages were involved -- or mages at all for that matter -- but I do know that some people did worship the Darkspawn during the First Blight.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I dislike the extent to which blood magic is becoming the applied phlebotinum of Thedas.

Want to create a golem army? Blood magic.
Want to clean a mirror of taint? Blood magic.
Want to enter the Golden City? Blood magic.
Want to trap a demon? Blood magic.
Want to do battle with a demon? Blood magic.
Want to have a serial killer? He's a blood mage.
Want someone to become a monster? He's a blood mage.
Want to have an Old God Baby? Blood magic.
Want to conquer Thedas? Have your leaders all be blood mages.
Want a city where the mages all get possessed? Give it a history of blood magic.
Want to stick a demon in a Templar? Blood magic.
Want to curse people with lycanthropy? I think that was blood magic.
Want to taint the ashes of Andreste? Blood magic.
Want to track missing a mage? Blood magic.
Want to create Grey Wardens? Blood magic.

Even the dragon cults drink blood and that appears to give them a special relationship with the dragon, possibly making another it form of blood magic.

I wish blood magic had its own strengths and limitations, an actual Fifth School, as opposed to being Magic++.

Want to take over the Circle? Blood Magic.
Want to enter the Fade? Blood Magic
Want to open the Veil? Blood Magic
Want to summmon demon? Blood Magic

And yet people still believe mages are immune to succumb to Blood Magic's temptation by advocating the right of freedom. Just because a few tiny minority of apostate and free mages have strong will.  Perhaps when history repeat itself like what the Terventer did, then people realize why the Circle was there in the first place.  

[dragonflight288]

I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not arguing against class recognition - far from it. What I'm addressing is the idea that blood magic, specifically the power of blood magic to corrupt the player, can be a major theme. Because it's by no means trivial to add, particularly as, like I said, you would only ever encounter that storyline if you happen to be both A) a mage and a blood mage. That's not saying that we shouldn't acknowledge if you make that choice - it's not an insignificant choice, and we've said before that we plan on having recognition of your specialization within the world, and the appropriate consequences associated with that choice.

If what you're looking for is a game that changes completely if you happen to choose the blood magic specialization, then that isn't going to happen. The only way that we would be willing to build an entire different game for people who choose a particular specialization is if we limited you to that choice and only that choice, stripping away other mage specializations and warrior/rogue as well. That's not to say we can't do more than we've previously done, of course, and we'll readily acknowledge that we should've done more with apostate mages and blood mages in DA2. But there is a point where we have to keep resource limitations in mind, and entirely different experiences for a player based on a sub choice of a class choice is probably that line.

Hmm. John, as a longtime Bioware fan, I do have a couple of ideas on how to work this out with being a blood mage into the other classes as well.

With the Warrior class we have had a Reaver in both games, which is made abundantly clear in the first game that it requires a blood magic ritual similar to the Joining itself to become. A Reaver could just as easily be a corruptible path as the blood mage path is, or be akin to the same slippery slope. As for the rogue, there is the assassin. We could have an Ezio Auditore' here, killing for a noble cause, or we could have an HK-47, efficiently dispatching organic meatbags for the sheer pleasure of it. It can be most soothing.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hmm. John, as a longtime Bioware fan, I do have a couple of ideas on how to work this out with being a blood mage into the other classes as well.

With the Warrior class we have had a Reaver in both games, which is made abundantly clear in the first game that it requires a blood magic ritual similar to the Joining itself to become. A Reaver could just as easily be a corruptible path as the blood mage path is, or be akin to the same slippery slope. As for the rogue, there is the assassin. We could have an Ezio Auditore' here, killing for a noble cause, or we could have an HK-47, efficiently dispatching organic meatbags for the sheer pleasure of it. It can be most soothing.

I like this. This is a great idea, additionally so if you consider the lore that Reavers eventually go insane. Maybe if you're an assassin you could kill certain targets for whatever faction you sided with, assuming DAIII allows you to be pro-mage or pro-Templar and acts accordingly.

There's some great potential with this, if zots allow for it.

[JamieCOTC]

John Epler wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

That sounds much better. But I feel blood magic is a special case in the storyline so far. The apostate/templar conflict is what DA2 is supposed to represent. And to be honest, storywise there was not much difference in playing a rogue or a mage or a warrior, besides the gameplay of the class itself.

I doubt you'll get much disagreement. This is something we've discussed, and, while it may not be to the degree some people are hoping for, we hope to make it feel at least somewhat different in the future. DAO, to me, felt like it handled it rather well by emphasizing that, as a Warden, you're not really subject to the same restrictions as the 'common folk', but it still reacted to your class choice in some situations. I think that's a good goal for us to aim for in future projects.

That's good to hear. 

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You know the lore actually states something similar to that happened. I don't know if blood mages were involved -- or mages at all for that matter -- but I do know that some people did worship the Darkspawn during the First Blight.

Likely out of desperation. The end of the world was nigh, their gods had abandoned them — so why not try placating the darkspawn with worship? However, the darkspawn probably treated these would-be worshippers the same as everyone else — they were turned into ghouls or slaughtered.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 01 mai 2012 - 03:12 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Fandango9641 wrote...

To confirm, I’m not advocating the provision of unique story based content for Blood Magic over and above other specialisations (in fact the opposite is true) - I was just interested enough by David’s comments at PAX to start a thread about the roleplaying potential of Blood Magic.  

The major problem with blood magic is that because it's so awesomely powerful and apparently capable of doing just about anything, even curing the Taint, once you open the door for players to use some of these abilities they'll start to question places where said skills are mysteriously not allowed to be used.

For instance, blood magic can be used to enter another person's dreams and view/manipulate them. If you're allowed to do this at one point for a quest, why not later for another NPC where it'd be really useful? It'd be cool roleplaying if I could walk into Loghain's dreams and convince him he's out of his mind. But that won't happen, or it wouldn't change the fact there'd still be a Landsmeet and duel/fight because, hey, content the devs don't want you to miss. Same reaason why rogues can't lockpick every single locked door.

Blood magic does have roleplaying potential, yes, but it's dangerous roleplaying potential because it's a class with powers that can effectively break the game. Whatever Bioware allows with a BM PC is going to have to be something they shouldn't be able to do any time they open a vein.

[Kail Ashton]

So blood magic is a morality bar? and how would this even work out for non mages? i don't believe you thought this little brain poot thru all the way, but why let that stop you from tossing it up on a forum to see who bites, at the very least you'll get snarky little bastards like me to point out the logic flaws

[Big I]

dragonflight288 wrote...
 A Reaver could just as easily be a corruptible path as the blood mage path is, or be akin to the same slippery slope. As for the rogue, there is the assassin.

There was one tiny part of DA:O that had something like this, during the Circle quest. You come across a blood mage and could recruit her into your army if your Warden had the blood mage, reaver, or assassin spec. If you didn't have that spec your choice was to either let her go or kill her.


I think something similiar could work to reflect spec choice in DA3. HAve thematically similar specs that open up a side quest/other options (e.g. reaver, blood mage and assassin get the "Corruption" sidequest, spirit healer, templar and duelist get the "Exorcist" side quest, etc).

[dragonflight288]

There was one tiny part of DA:O that had something like this, during the Circle quest. You come across a blood mage and could recruit her into your army if your Warden had the blood mage, reaver, or assassin spec. If you didn't have that spec your choice was to either let her go or kill her.


I think something similiar could work to reflect spec choice in DA3. HAve thematically similar specs that open up a side quest/other options (e.g. reaver, blood mage and assassin get the "Corruption" sidequest, spirit healer, templar and duelist get the "Exorcist" side quest, etc).

Really? I honestly didn't know we could recruit her if we were a Reaver, Assassin, or Blood Mage. I'm going to have to try that.

[Big I]

dragonflight288 wrote...

There was one tiny part of DA:O that had something like this, during the Circle quest. You come across a blood mage and could recruit her into your army if your Warden had the blood mage, reaver, or assassin spec. If you didn't have that spec your choice was to either let her go or kill her.

Really? I honestly didn't know we could recruit her if we were a Reaver, Assassin, or Blood Mage. I'm going to have to try that.

It's also dependent on who you side with. Annul the Circle and you don't get her. I also don't think it has a gameplay consequence beyond showing a blood mage alongside the rest of the Circle.

[Lamepro]

Considering that Extoic Woman from the East pulled a Jedi mind trick as a Blood Mage in DA2.the Question is If I wanted become a Blood Mage in DA3 can I have the option to force people to give me information,money or kill themself?

Modifié par Lamepro, 01 mai 2012 - 04:34 .

[TEWR]

Lamepro wrote...

Considering that Extoic Woman from the East pulled a Jedi mind trick as a Blood Mage in DA2.the Question is If I wanted become a Blood Mage in DA3 can I have the option to force people to give me information,money or kill themself?

Well you do get the option to have them fight alongside you in gameplay, IIRC. That takes mind control.

But I'd definitely approve of a moment where a blood mage PC can go "These aren't the Golems you're looking for" and succeed.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lamepro wrote...

Considering that Extoic Woman from the East pulled a Jedi mind trick as a Blood Mage in DA2.the Question is If I wanted become a Blood Mage in DA3 can I have the option to force people to give me information,money or kill themself?

Well you do get the option to have them fight alongside you in gameplay, IIRC. That takes mind control.

No. Pulling a meat-puppet's strings isn't the same as bending their will to your own.

That NPC in DA2 (Idunna) implied quite strongly that more than blood magic was involved to pull her trick off: "A combination of desire and blood magic". Considering she was in league with Tarohne I'm guessing demonic aid was somehow invoked.

[TEWR]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

No. Pulling a meat-puppet's strings isn't the same as bending their will to your own.

Ah right, it was just probably just manipulating the blood flow and muscle movements.

Mind control is the only aspect of blood magic that requires dominating a demon to understand

I remember having a discussion about this looong ago in the Spoiler section, where the Scrolls of Banastor said that in order to control the mind and have free reign over what a person does, you must first test your will against that of a demon.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 05:40 .

[Dakota Strider]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

No. Pulling a meat-puppet's strings isn't the same as bending their will to your own.

Ah right, it was just probably just manipulating the blood flow and muscle movements.

Mind control is the only aspect of blood magic that requires dominating a demon to understand

I remember having a discussion about this looong ago in the Spoiler section, where the Scrolls of Banastor said that in order to control the mind and have free reign over what a person does, you must first test your will against that of a demon.

Which means that any Circle mage that has passed the Harrowing is qualified.  Now all they need to do, is turn to the dark side...