285 réponses à ce sujet

[ItsNotMyProblem]

I saved the geth and quarians and immediately knew that I couldn't choose the destroy option simply because it would wipe out the geth. I owed more to them than that. They weren't just machines to me. They were self aware and deserved to be called alive. So, I didn't kill them.

[NoUserNameHere]

Was EDI ever confirmed to survive, anyway? I've heard she can walk out of the Normandy if you play your cards right.
Shepard for sure can survive. The Reapers die.
We're left to take the Starchild's word for it that the geth have bought the farm. I trust him about as far as I can throw him.

Hint: He's a noncorporeal hologram.

[nitefyre410]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Was EDI ever confirmed to survive, anyway? I've heard she can walk out of the Normandy if you play your cards right.
Shepard for sure can survive. The Reapers die.
We're left to take the Starchild's word for it that the geth have bought the farm. I trust him about as far as I can throw him.

Hint: He's a noncorporeal hologram.

 

And As I said in the another thread... 

"And so Bioware started what will be known as the  Great  Handwave of our time.." 

[IanPolaris]

M0keys wrote...

But they didn't get a say.

You don't knock on your best friend's door, shoot him in the head when he greets you, and then call up the terrorist who's holding the city hostage and say, "yeah, you can disarm that nuke now! I killed him!"

It's not just murder, it's weak-willed and utterly gullible.

I agree.  I wasn't kidding when I said it was "Mass Effect 3: Pick Your Warcrime"

However:

1.  If you could talk with Adm Hackett, you SHOULD be able to talk with Edi/Geth.  This is a plothole.
2.  Secondly given the complete lack of information, we are forced to do our best guess and pick the ending that is least bad and at least we can be reasonbly sure that if the Geth could give their approval, they would....if it meant ending the Old Machine Threat forever.  At the very least, the Geth being the logical being(s) they are would forgive you.

-Polaris

[Eterna]

It's a machine, it's not like it can feel pain anyways.

[wolfstanus]

Star child told me I wil die. I didn't. He also said I was partially synthetic. I am not. Ever think he is lying?

[NoUserNameHere]

Eterna5 wrote...

It's a machine, it's not like it can feel pain anyways.

Your Geth are all dead in Act II, I'm just assuming.

[ItsNotMyProblem]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Was EDI ever confirmed to survive, anyway? I've heard she can walk out of the Normandy if you play your cards right.
Shepard for sure can survive. The Reapers die.
We're left to take the Starchild's word for it that the geth have bought the farm. I trust him about as far as I can throw him.

Hint: He's a noncorporeal hologram.

EDI walked out and cuddled up against Joker on my first playthrough.

[KingNothing125]

M0keys wrote...

But they didn't get a say.

They got a say when they took up arms against the Reapers. They marched off to war, put themselves under the command of Shepard, knowing full well that they might all die.

Commanders sometimes have to lead their soldiers to certain death... it's an occupational hazard. How is this any different from leaving the Virmire non-Survivor behind? Or ordering the Geth to assault a group of Sovereign-class Reapers?

Garrus advised Victus to abandon Palaven so they could save their remaining forces for the Crucible offensive. Hackett sacrified an entire Alliance fleet so the other fleets could escape Sol. The fleet Hackett sacrified "had a say" also... when they enlisted in the Alliance Navy and submitted themselves to the chain of command.

All the Geth died ensuring all the Reapers died. That's a damn heroic sacrifice and they should have monuments and museums and stuff built in their honor across the galaxy.

[M0keys]

IanPolaris wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But they didn't get a say.

You don't knock on your best friend's door, shoot him in the head when he greets you, and then call up the terrorist who's holding the city hostage and say, "yeah, you can disarm that nuke now! I killed him!"

It's not just murder, it's weak-willed and utterly gullible.

I agree.  I wasn't kidding when I said it was "Mass Effect 3: Pick Your Warcrime"

However:

1.  If you could talk with Adm Hackett, you SHOULD be able to talk with Edi/Geth.  This is a plothole.
2.  Secondly given the complete lack of information, we are forced to do our best guess and pick the ending that is least bad and at least we can be reasonbly sure that if the Geth could give their approval, they would....if it meant ending the Old Machine Threat forever.  At the very least, the Geth being the logical being(s) they are would forgive you.

-Polaris

If they were still a collective, I could make that decision. But they weren't. That means even if they're a logical species, there's a chance that a single innocent Geth would still be begging not to die, and you kill it anyway.

[liggy002]

ItsNotMyProblem wrote...

I saved the geth and quarians and immediately knew that I couldn't choose the destroy option simply because it would wipe out the geth. I owed more to them than that. They weren't just machines to me. They were self aware and deserved to be called alive. So, I didn't kill them.

That's what Star D*** tells you.  I wouldn't believe him.  Edi did survive after all.  He said that ALL synthetics will die.  Edi didn't die after the Red choice.

[GLR-0053]

Its beautiful, knowing that you could judge who can live and who can die.

[Eterna]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

It's a machine, it's not like it can feel pain anyways.

Your Geth are all dead in Act II, I'm just assuming.

No I made peace. But if I was forced too, I would have still chosen the Quarians. 

I don't want the geth dead, but I wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice them over an actual living being. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 01 mai 2012 - 01:06 .

[Sisterofshane]

M0keys wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Gust4v wrote...

Well, at least they can be recreated.

Why do so many people say this? Did you guys totally miss the part of the story where Legion sacrificed himself so all the Geth would become unique individuals?

You can't truly rebuild vanished minds. Even if you could, they'd just be clones of a consciousness and the actual  sense-thought-perspectives on which they were based would still be dead.

Yes but the Geth understand sacrifice.  If they didn't, they wouldn't be helping you.  They even understand there is a real chance they will cease to exist as a race during this battle, but come anyway.  I believe based on what Legion and the other Geth have said (including the Geth Prime Commander if the Quarians are dead) that the Geth would insist that you end the Old Machine Threat forever.  That it's the only 'logical' decision.

-Polaris

But they didn't get a say.

You don't knock on your best friend's door, shoot him in the head when he greets you, and then call up the terrorist who's holding the city hostage and say, "yeah, you can disarm that nuke now! I killed him!"

It's not just murder, it's weak-willed and utterly gullible.

Your example is bad, and you should feel bad.  The destruction of the Reapers is not a direct result of choosing to destroy the Geth - the Catalyst is not holding anybody hostage.


Besides, the other options (Synthesis and Control) don't give anyone else a choice, either.

To continue with bad analogies, would you drug your best friend and give her a sex change because some doctor told you that to end all conflicts everyone had to be a man?  Basically what you are choosing with Synthesis.

And Control?  I imagine that would be taking the Terrorist who planted the bomb in a city with a high population, and taking him and his remote control detonator  and placing him on an uncharted island.  Let us then do nothing with the bomb, and pray to God that the terrorist doesn't find a way to get back to the city (or that another terrorist will not decide to implement the bomb).

[justafan]

The Geth volunteered to kill me and all my current allies for their sole survival, I killed them to ensure mine and everyone else's survival, who is the real bad guy here?

As is though, I would have sacrificed just about any other race to stop the reapers, as my goal has always been to permanently end the reaper threat, so I was willing to pay any price to make that happen.

[ediskrad327]

*makes peace with the geth, geth get destroyed* MY CHOICES DID MATTER IN TEH END! 1!!!11!!ONE!!

[M0keys]

KingNothing125 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But they didn't get a say.

They got a say when they took up arms against the Reapers. They marched off to war, put themselves under the command of Shepard, knowing full well that they might all die.

Commanders sometimes have to lead their soldiers to certain death... it's an occupational hazard. How is this any different from leaving the Virmire non-Survivor behind? Or ordering the Geth to assault a group of Sovereign-class Reapers?

Garrus advised Victus to abandon Palaven so they could save their remaining forces for the Crucible offensive. Hackett sacrified an entire Alliance fleet so the other fleets could escape Sol. The fleet Hackett sacrified "had a say" also... when they enlisted in the Alliance Navy and submitted themselves to the chain of command.

All the Geth died ensuring all the Reapers died. That's a damn heroic sacrifice and they should have monuments and museums and stuff built in their honor across the galaxy.

No. NO NO NO.

Why is it so hard to understand the difference between heroic self-sacrifice and being killed as a means to an end!!?

Geth being heroes = Geth destroy themselves fighting the Reapers, and they make a difference.

Destroy ending = the same no matter what the Geth are doing! By your logic, they're all still heroes if they're just chilling out, smoking synthetic cigarettes on Rannoch!

[KingNothing125]

M0keys wrote...

Why is it so hard to understand the difference between heroic self-sacrifice and being killed as a means to an end!!?

Geth being heroes = Geth destroy themselves fighting the Reapers, and they make a difference.

Destroy ending = the same no matter what the Geth are doing! By your logic, they're all still heroes if they're just chilling out, smoking synthetic cigarettes on Rannoch!

Sure, ignore the other examples I made. The Alliance fleet did not "self-sacrifice", Hackett ordered them to give cover for the other fleets.

Palaven did not "self-sacrifice", Victus left it behind.

Also, the Geth are not smoking e-cigs on Rannoch, they are fighting the Reapers in Sol.

The Geth died in a huge synthetic-seeking explosion. In battle. They're collateral damage, but they signed up for it.

[IanPolaris]

KingNothing125 wrote...

The Geth died in a huge synthetic-seeking explosion. In battle. They're collateral damage, but they signed up for it.

Not just that, but they died so the Old Machine Thread would be ended forever.  They UNDERSTOOD that was a possibility and fought for you anyway.

-Polaris

[M0keys]

But what I'm trying to say is that the decision destroy makes is that what they're doing doesn't matter! They don't matter! They're tools to satisfy your goal of destroying the Reapers.

And if they, the new entries into the "great big list of things worth fighting for," are just tools for your end-goal, and you'd sacrifice any other race, you're fighting for nothing.

"The value of life and its various forms don't matter, only the state of it still existing."

It is a belief so incredibly insane, I'd rather just wipe out the galaxy to preserve the dignity of our existences than "save" us by betraying the very meaning of ever having lived at all. Maybe another galaxy's got a better shot in the big scheme of things.

Modifié par M0keys, 01 mai 2012 - 01:15 .

[KingNothing125]

M0keys wrote...

They're tools to satisfy your goal of destroying the Reapers.

Soldiers are indeed tools to satisfy your goal of destroying the enemy (in this case, Reapers).

Callous, yes. Sad, yes. True, yes.

[IanPolaris]

M0keys wrote...

But what I'm trying to say is that the decision destroy makes is that what they're doing doesn't matter! They don't matter! They're tools to satisfy your goal of destroying the Reapers.

So what?  They are but so is everyone else in the allied forces INCLUDING Humanity.  The Reapers threaten everyone, and everyone is willing to put the existance of not only themselve but their entire species on the line to end this threat forever.  If you waffle at the very end, you do them (including the Geth) a grave disservice.

-Polaris

Edit:  ninjaed!

Modifié par IanPolaris, 01 mai 2012 - 01:19 .

[M0keys]

But soldiers can fight and change the war! That's why they're there. The Geth, and by extension none of the other races you've brought together, serve any purpose fighting the Reapers if the Reapers are just going to hand you the keys to the war at the cost of millions, maybe billions of innocent lives.

"Hey, just let me exterminate these guys and I'll go home!"

No, you go to hell! You go to hell and you die! [/mr. garrison]

[M0keys]

IanPolaris wrote...

M0keys wrote...

But what I'm trying to say is that the decision destroy makes is that what they're doing doesn't matter! They don't matter! They're tools to satisfy your goal of destroying the Reapers.

So what?  They are but so is everyone else in the allied forces INCLUDING Humanity.  The Reapers threaten everyone, and everyone is willing to put the existance of not only themselve but their entire species on the line to end this threat forever.  If you waffle at the very end, you do them (including the Geth) a grave disservice.

You call it waffling, I call it not betraying everything you've ever fought for.

You pick that ending, you go from being a hero to a madman in a single moment.

I feel like I'm surrounded by utter insanity here. Please, for pete's sake, someone with some understanding come to my aid. I'm flailing madly in a blasted vacuum.

[Sisterofshane]

M0keys wrote...

But what I'm trying to say is that the decision destroy makes is that what they're doing doesn't matter! They don't matter! They're tools to satisfy your goal of destroying the Reapers.

And if they, the new entries into the "great big list of things worth fighting for," are just tools for your end-goal, and you'd sacrifice any other race, you're fighting for nothing.

"The value of life and its various forms don't matter, only the state of it still existing."

It is a belief so incredibly insane, I'd rather just wipe out the galaxy to preserve the dignity of our existences than save us all by betraying the very meaning of ever having lived at all. Maybe another galaxy's got a better shot in the big scheme of things.

Again, I think you are arguing your point incorrectly.  The only become TOOLS of the destruction if you USE them specifically to destroy.  As it happens, the crucible is the tool, and no one knew prior to meeting the catalyst that the Geth would be in danger.  If we had, we might have agreed to tell the geth to GTFO of the way.

Liken it to destroying the Alpha Relay - You killed three hundred thousand Batarians, but it wasn't their death that was specifically warranted to stop the Reapers from using the Relay Network.

As it were, everyone at the final battle understands how grim the situation is.  The Crucible is regarded as a long shot, but everyone on that battlefield is prepared to lay down their lives not for themselves, but for the future of life as they know it.  So the destruction of the Geth would be inconsequential if you could look at the larger picture.