181 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok I have to say it. I usually agree with things you say, even if maybe you sometimes go a bit far. Anyway. But synthesis does not necessarily equal intolerance. It is an utopia. You know, no religion, country, no races, no property, etc. etc. The idea is if there is nothing to fight over, there will no longer be wars. Well, as a certain pirate lady from Dragon Age said, it is a nice idea in an a world of ideas. The problem I mainly have with synthesis is that it is a true fairytale ending. There could hardly be more unicorns and rainbows than in synthesis. It's supposed to be the happy ending.

Think about the reasoning behind synthesis.

Organics and synthetics are different.
Because they are different, they will never co-exist.
Synthesis makes organics and synthetics the same.
If they are the same, they will co-exist forever.

Now, replace "organic" and "synthetic" with "black" and "white". Do you see the very, very unsettling issue now?

But sadly it has nothing to do with ME. Not even with life. The ending basically paints life as we know it as negative, wrong. It would be better to live in a perfect world where people have no reason to disagree or whatever. That's why it is so out of place imo. It is like giving up. I think even John Lennon would have liked it. But honeslty, he was wrong with alot of things. Not all mind you, and not going into detail.

However, the problem with synthesis is not that it is racist or intolerant. It is that it is the easy way out. Dreaming instead of living. Harmony instead of conflict. Status quo instead of progress. It is everything life is not about. Another quote from Dragon Age from Hawke: "It's life, wild and glorious." Despite all the strife, chaos and injustice you have to love life as it is. And synthesis is an abomination. As is the idea of 'heaven' tbh. (or utopia).

It also violates a core theme of Mass Effect. Strength and unity in diversity.
Synthesis eliminates diversity, and blames diversity for the galaxy's problems.

Yes but people who believe that it would be better that no races existed are not racists. Racists believe in superiority of their own race and want do supress or wipe out all others. Synthesis is about the non-existance of races. And I agree about diversity and it being a good thing. I think life is about overcomming odds, not about escaping into an utopia in which all the conflicts of life don't exist. I think life is a challenge. And synthesis is giving up. Because it is not life anymore. It is solving the challenge by eliminating it. Which is ... cheap. And yes, it completlely goes against the "overcome the odds" theme of ME and against Shepard's nature. I don't know, maybe ME3's main topic is "Shepard is getting tired". But so close to the end giving up shouldn't be an option.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 mai 2012 - 12:55 .

[Prosarian]

AlexXIV wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Please, even the creator pointed out that you're attacked for liking the ending. There was no claims of superiority there, just his opinion.

Gamble? Like I said, he was strawmanning. He said he liked synthesis.
Synthesis = intolerance.

If he said he liked destroy or control, I doubt he would've gotten much flak at all. Get it through your head that many of us have severe problems with synthesis. It not only fails biology and evolution forever, it is immoral and racist. It is the stated ultimate goal of Saren and Harbinger.
With synthesis, the Reapers win. THAT IS WHY PEOPLE WERE UPSET.

Heck some of these people are still around complaining about the ending almost 2 months after it came out, ignoring movements to help it (like don't come on BSN for Turn ME Off) while claiming they're barely here anymore.

Okay.
Seriously.
What the hell is wrong with you? I'm done explaining myself to you.

Ok I have to say it. I usually agree with things you say, even if maybe you sometimes go a bit far. Anyway. But synthesis does not necessarily equal intolerance. It is an utopia. You know, no religion, country, no races, no property, etc. etc. The idea is if there is nothing to fight over, there will no longer be wars. Well, as a certain pirate lady from Dragon Age said, it is a nice idea in an a world of ideas. The problem I mainly have with synthesis is that it is a true fairytale ending. There could hardly be more unicorns and rainbows than in synthesis. It's supposed to be the happy ending.

But sadly it has nothing to do with ME. Not even with life. The ending basically paints life as we know it as negative, wrong. It would be better to live in a perfect world where people have no reason to disagree or whatever. That's why it is so out of place imo. It is like giving up. I think even John Lennon would have liked it. But honeslty, he was wrong with alot of things. Not all mind you, and not going into detail.

However, the problem with synthesis is not that it is racist or intolerant. It is that it is the easy way out. Dreaming instead of living. Harmony instead of conflict. Status quo instead of progress. It is everything life is not about. Another quote from Dragon Age from Hawke: "It's life, wild and glorious." Despite all the strife, chaos and injustice you have to love life as it is. And synthesis is an abomination. As is the idea of 'heaven' tbh. (or utopia).

We don't actually know if synthesis will do all those things. All we know is that we will have glowy green lines. I mean Joker is still limping, so injuries and genetic diseases are still possible.

[AlexXIV]

Prosarian wrote...

We don't actually know if synthesis will do all those things. All we know is that we will have glowy green lines. I mean Joker is still limping, so injuries and genetic diseases are still possible.

No, he's not limping.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 mai 2012 - 12:57 .

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...
Gamble? Like I said, he was strawmanning. He said he liked synthesis.
Synthesis = intolerance.

The closest thing I can find to gamble saying he liked synthesis the best is here:

https://twitter.com/...308506214187008

Maybe there is another source, but I couldn't find it.

But yea, if you are equating intolerance and racism to people who like synthesis, its not stretch to see why people feel you are attacking them.

[AlexXIV]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Gamble? Like I said, he was strawmanning. He said he liked synthesis.
Synthesis = intolerance.

The closest thing I can find to gamble saying he liked synthesis the best is here:

https://twitter.com/...308506214187008

Maybe there is another source, but I couldn't find it.

But yea, if you are equating intolerance and racism to people who like synthesis, its not stretch to see why people feel you are attacking them.

There was a whole thread about it and I never posted in it. It is really a stretch, because of course you can say that synthesis could be a racist solution. But you can't say everyone who chooses it is a racist. There are other reasons which don't have anything to do with racism.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 mai 2012 - 12:59 .

[Shaigunjoe]

knightnblu wrote...

Same tactic as Hale, but not as well done. Hale's evasion was far more polished.

I see what you did there!

[PSUHammer]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Wait that's why people attack those who like the ending? Because it endorses intolerance and racism apparently? So it's not intolerant to attack people because they liked the ending of a fictional game?

No, SYNTHESIS endorses intolerance and racism.
Nobody's being attacked. Let go of your martyr complex already.

Also didn't you say you were barely here anymore? Back when you weren't taking part in Turn Me OFF. So much for that eh.

Why am I justifying myself to you again? Stop clamouring for my attention.
Also, Turn ME off was the game. THE. GAME. This is not the game.

I love the nobodies being attacked part, look at what happens to threads of people saying they liked the ending, they're trolls or Bioware employees apparently. And even I knew Turn ME Off involved BSN and I didn't pay much attention to it, for someone that is here all the time almost 2 months after a game came out complaining about it I'm not buying that you never knew that, mostly because you said you were barely here anymore but look how that turned out.

Yup, and what is funny is when people who attack others (devs or people with opposing opinions) defend it by saying "nobody is being attacked."  And accuse them of a "martyr" complex.  LOL.  Passive agressiveness is still a form of attack.

Modifié par Hammer6767, 01 mai 2012 - 01:02 .

[The Angry One]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes but people who believe that it would be better that no races existed are not racists. Racists believe in superiority of their own race and want do supress or wipe out all others.

This is exactly what happens in synthesis.
The Catalyst believes in the superiority of his own race. The Reapers. Organic/synthetic hybrids.

Synthesis remakes all other life into their image. Essentially, all other races have been wiped out. There are now only Reapers.

Synthesis is about the non-existance of races. And I agree about diversity and it being a good thing. I think life is about overcomming odds, not about escaping into an utopia in which all the conflicts of life don't exist. I think life is a challenge. And synthesis is giving up. Because it is not life anymore. It is solving the challenge by eliminating it. Which is ... cheap. And yes, it completlely goes against the "overcome the odds" theme of ME and against Shepard's nature. I don't know, maybe ME3's main topic is "Shepard is getting tired". But so close to the end giving up shouldn't be an option.

We don't play epic stories to have the hero get tired though, that's the problem.
They  want to make some existential arty piece on a protagonist getting overwhelmed by the odds? Go ahead, just don't call it Mass Effect.

[Prosarian]

AlexXIV wrote...

Prosarian wrote...

We don't actually know if synthesis will do all those things. All we know is that we will have glowy green lines. I mean Joker is still limping, so injuries and genetic diseases are still possible.

No, he's not limping.

Yes, yes he is

[The Angry One]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Gamble? Like I said, he was strawmanning. He said he liked synthesis.
Synthesis = intolerance.

The closest thing I can find to gamble saying he liked synthesis the best is here:

https://twitter.com/...308506214187008

Maybe there is another source, but I couldn't find it.

But yea, if you are equating intolerance and racism to people who like synthesis, its not stretch to see why people feel you are attacking them.

No. I am equating synthesis itself with intolerance and racism.
If you like synthesis, you either don't fully understand the implications of it, or it doesn't bother you. It doesn't mean *you* are racist. It just means for one reason or another it doesn't affect you.
I personally think it should, so I will call people out on it.

Hammer6767 wrote...

Yup, and what is funny is when people
who attack others (devs or people with opposing opinions) defend it by
saying "nobody is being attacked."  And accuse them of a "martyr"
complex.  LOL.  Passive agressiveness is still a form of attack.

You need to learn the difference between attacking a person and disagreeing with an argument.
If I disagree with you, I am not attacking you. If you call it an attack, then yes you do have a martyr complex. I say this to him specifically because he ALWAYS does this. He ALWAYS runs around making personal attacks after someone disagrees with him, then accusing others of attacking him. Hence, martyr complex.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 mai 2012 - 01:05 .

[PSUHammer]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Gamble? Like I said, he was strawmanning. He said he liked synthesis.
Synthesis = intolerance.

The closest thing I can find to gamble saying he liked synthesis the best is here:

https://twitter.com/...308506214187008

Maybe there is another source, but I couldn't find it.

But yea, if you are equating intolerance and racism to people who like synthesis, its not stretch to see why people feel you are attacking them.

I didn't get racist from any of the endings, especially Synthesis.  Just failed AI logic (IMO).  If people were to call me a racist for that opinion (which is a pretty serious accusation), I would stop posting as well.  If I were Gamble, I wouldn't even opinion comment on ME3 again other than to share news and details.

[AlexXIV]

Prosarian wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Prosarian wrote...

We don't actually know if synthesis will do all those things. All we know is that we will have glowy green lines. I mean Joker is still limping, so injuries and genetic diseases are still possible.

No, he's not limping.

Yes, yes he is

Ok that's odd. I played ME3 only once and chose synthesis and I remember thinking oh well, at least Joker's disease is fixed. Either I didn't notice the limping which is odd, or this is a bug or in the PC version he doesn't. However I deleted ME3 and the save game and not going to replay unless they fix the ending. But logic dictates, he shouldn't be limbing.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 mai 2012 - 01:12 .

[humes spork]

Hammer6767 wrote...

I didn't get racist from any of the endings, especially Synthesis.  Just failed AI logic (IMO).  If people were to call me a racist for that opinion (which is a pretty serious accusation), I would stop posting as well.  If I were Gamble, I wouldn't even opinion comment on ME3 again other than to share news and details.

Yup, people who are going to say that kind of stuff without the slightest hint of irony or introspection aren't reasonable and worth engaging -- at least on that particular topic.

And, let's be honest -- with the controversy surrounding the game, and its ending and the extreme polarization of nerddom, do you think he'll give a positive, definitive answer to that question prior to considering his business relationship with BW and EA? That he played the question off as a joke, while refusing to answer definitively, speaks for itself.

Modifié par humes spork, 01 mai 2012 - 01:17 .

[The Angry One]

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok that's odd. I played ME3 only once and chose synthesis and I remember thinking oh well, at least Joker's disease is fixed. Either I didn't notice the limping which is odd, or this is a bug or in the PC version he doesn't. However I deleted ME3 and the save game and not going to replay unless they fix the ending.

Every synthesis video out there shows Joker limping. I'd check myself, but that'd involve choosing synthesis myself, and I'd sooner set fire to my hair.

But logic dictates, he shouldn't be limbing.

Logic? In synthesis? Surely you jest.

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Gamble? Like I said, he was strawmanning. He said he liked synthesis.
Synthesis = intolerance.

The closest thing I can find to gamble saying he liked synthesis the best is here:

https://twitter.com/...308506214187008

Maybe there is another source, but I couldn't find it.

But yea, if you are equating intolerance and racism to people who like synthesis, its not stretch to see why people feel you are attacking them.

No. I am equating synthesis itself with intolerance and racism.
If you like synthesis, you either don't fully understand the implications of it, or it doesn't bother you. It doesn't mean *you* are racist. It just means for one reason or another it doesn't affect you.
I personally think it should, so I will call people out on it.

Hammer6767 wrote...

Yup, and what is funny is when people
who attack others (devs or people with opposing opinions) defend it by
saying "nobody is being attacked."  And accuse them of a "martyr"
complex.  LOL.  Passive agressiveness is still a form of attack.

You need to learn the difference between attacking a person and disagreeing with an argument.
If I disagree with you, I am not attacking you. If you call it an attack, then yes you do have a martyr complex. I say this to him specifically because he ALWAYS does this. He ALWAYS runs around making personal attacks after someone disagrees with him, then accusing others of attacking him. Hence, martyr complex.

I just feel like you are looking at the worse possible interpretation of the synthesis ending.  If you think its the equivalent of making black people and white people the same, I don't think that was their intent.  I don't think it makes synthetics/organics anymore the same as I am to a quarian under the current DNA framework.

There is an old argument that talks about wether or not America was a melting pot (I guess you can still pose the same questoin)  during all the late 1700s.  I feel like you could say the same thing about synthesis, some people think its a melting pot, others feel it is more of a mosiac.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Melting_pot

I feel like you must think I don't understand synthesis (as opposed to being intolerant), but I have yet to read a conclusive argument that says synthesis is the end all of diversity. 

[EricHVela]

Mark's a nice guy. I'm a little annoyed that someone put him on the spot like that, but I'm not surprised. I know he's been expecting it. I'm glad to see he was ready for it.

He can't answer positively or negatively because he'll upset either fans or employers.

He once stated before in Twitter that, even if he was asked to return for more voice-work, he would not be able to talk about it. I hope the person who asked was simply not aware of that statement. Not everyone follows twitter (though I think there might be quite a bit more following all of the ME3 crew because of ME3's ending alone).

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes but people who believe that it would be better that no races existed are not racists. Racists believe in superiority of their own race and want do supress or wipe out all others.

This is exactly what happens in synthesis.
The Catalyst believes in the superiority of his own race. The Reapers. Organic/synthetic hybrids.

Synthesis remakes all other life into their image. Essentially, all other races have been wiped out. There are now only Reapers.

Synthesis is about the non-existance of races. And I agree about diversity and it being a good thing. I think life is about overcomming odds, not about escaping into an utopia in which all the conflicts of life don't exist. I think life is a challenge. And synthesis is giving up. Because it is not life anymore. It is solving the challenge by eliminating it. Which is ... cheap. And yes, it completlely goes against the "overcome the odds" theme of ME and against Shepard's nature. I don't know, maybe ME3's main topic is "Shepard is getting tired". But so close to the end giving up shouldn't be an option.

We don't play epic stories to have the hero get tired though, that's the problem.
They  want to make some existential arty piece on a protagonist getting overwhelmed by the odds? Go ahead, just don't call it Mass Effect.

I don't mind the hero getting tired. But, being hero and all, I'd expect a last effort to stem him/herself against the odds, not lying down and dying. Well they are not Reapers. They are something new, that has not existed before. Reapers are not born the way they are. They are classic cyborg things, organics made into machines. The new 'synthesis' beings are both, organic and synthetic, by nature or whatever. I don't really try to look too deep into it because it can only get worse. At some point they recreate life and the galaxy anyway, if that's not bad enough then I don't know. The solution to the challenges is to create a new world where they don't exist. Good job.

The message is: life is too hard, lay down and dream of a better world.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 mai 2012 - 01:20 .

[The Angry One]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

I just feel like you are looking at the worse possible interpretation of the synthesis ending.  If you think its the equivalent of making black people and white people the same, I don't think that was their intent.  I don't think it makes synthetics/organics anymore the same as I am to a quarian under the current DNA framework.

BioWare themselves have gone on about how there are no races or organics anymore in synthesis, just "life".
Setting aside the absurdity of it that just sounds utterly sinister to me.

There is an old argument that talks about wether or not America was a melting pot (I guess you can still pose the same questoin)  during all the late 1700s.  I feel like you could say the same thing about synthesis, some people think its a melting pot, others feel it is more of a mosiac.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Melting_pot

I feel like you must think I don't understand synthesis (as opposed to being intolerant), but I have yet to read a conclusive argument that says synthesis is the end all of diversity. 

Aside from BioWare itself, what is the point of synthesis if it doesn't make organics and synthetics the same?
How will it stop conflict? Yes, I have said that it won't stop conflict anyway (it's called civil war, BioWare) but the Catalyst THINKS it does, so either it makes them the same or it doesn't. If it doesn't why not leave things as they are and call the Reaper toys off?

[incinerator950]

This is only making my headache worse.

[The Angry One]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't mind the hero getting tired. But, being hero and all, I'd expect a last effort to stem him/herself against the odds, not lying down and dying. Well they are not Reapers. They are something new, that has not existed before. Reapers are not born the way they are. They are classic cyborg things, organics made into machines. The new 'synthesis' beings are both, organic and synthetic, by nature or whatever. I don't really try to look too deep into it because it can only get worse. At some point they recreate life and the galaxy anyway, if that's not bad enough then I don't know. The solution to the challenges is to create a new world where they don't exist. Good job.

Well let's compare to the bittersweet ending in Crisis Core.
There, the hero dies after being overwhelmed by the enemy's infinite mook machine (or something).
You fight in gameplay until you can fight no more. You actually see Zack break down physically and mentally through a gameplay mechanic until he's overwhelmed.
The difference is that, to the end, he never gives up. Shepard on the other hand, from the moment they're raised to the Catalyst's platform, they're spent. They don't argue, they don't resist.

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't mind the hero getting tired. But, being hero and all, I'd expect a last effort to stem him/herself against the odds, not lying down and dying. Well they are not Reapers. They are something new, that has not existed before. Reapers are not born the way they are. They are classic cyborg things, organics made into machines. The new 'synthesis' beings are both, organic and synthetic, by nature or whatever. I don't really try to look too deep into it because it can only get worse. At some point they recreate life and the galaxy anyway, if that's not bad enough then I don't know. The solution to the challenges is to create a new world where they don't exist. Good job.

Well let's compare to the bittersweet ending in Crisis Core.
There, the hero dies after being overwhelmed by the enemy's infinite mook machine (or something).
You fight in gameplay until you can fight no more. You actually see Zack break down physically and mentally through a gameplay mechanic until he's overwhelmed.
The difference is that, to the end, he never gives up. Shepard on the other hand, from the moment they're raised to the Catalyst's platform, they're spent. They don't argue, they don't resist.

That's what Bioware didn't grasp yet. Hero being inactive/passive is bad. In too many cutscenes we just get to watch and the player thinks "Shepard/Hawke/Warden! Don't stand around, do something!". The way they design these cutscenes when you witness something horrible happening are just so out of place because you are forced to watch and can't act. Somehow Bioware has a problem understand why it is bad to have a hero who not acting heroic. It is not about success or fail. It is about doing something, about trying. They obviously think what they do is 'good enough'. Well it probably is for some. Or was for some in the past, don't know. But yeah, one characteristic of a hero is that he/she acts when others would hesitate. And resists when others give up. Also, suicide isn't an epic death.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 mai 2012 - 01:31 .

[EricHVela]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Mark's a nice guy. I'm a little annoyed that someone put him on the spot like that, but I'm not surprised. I know he's been expecting it. I'm glad to see he was ready for it.

He can't answer positively or negatively because he'll upset either fans or employers.

He once stated before in Twitter that, even if he was asked to return for more voice-work, he would not be able to talk about it. I hope the person who asked was simply not aware of that statement. Not everyone follows twitter (though I think there might be quite a bit more following all of the ME3 crew because of ME3's ending alone).

And here I thought this was supposed to be a discussion about Mark's response. I guess most of the threads in this forum are actually about the valid and invalid points of the ME3 ending.

[superg30]

Inside Mark Meer's head(moments before his answer): "Hmmm... If I say what I think about the ME3 endings on video I might get fired and not get paid to do DLC for a game with ****ty endings.......hmmm...what to do......."

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...

BioWare themselves have gone on about how there are no races or organics anymore in synthesis, just "life".
Setting aside the absurdity of it that just sounds utterly sinister to me.

At least that quote is familiar to me, to me, I thought he was saying there will be no more differentiation between organic and synthetic life like there is now.  If you remove synthetic life from the equation, what he have now is 'just life' but we still have rich diversity.

Aside from BioWare itself, what is the point of synthesis if it doesn't make organics and synthetics the same?
How will it stop conflict? Yes, I have said that it won't stop conflict anyway (it's called civil war, BioWare) but the Catalyst THINKS it does, so either it makes them the same or it doesn't. If it doesn't why not leave things as they are and call the Reaper toys off?

I think there will still be conflict, just not the synthetic vs organic conflict the catalyst is concerned about.  Look at the quarian/geth conflict.  The only way that that ended in peace is becuase the geth got a last minute upgrade that would allow them to completly obliterate the quarians if provoked.  Its not to disimiliar to how the dawn war ended, except now the quarinas can live on the planet, but the geth are superior.  If the reaper toys were just called off and left well enough alone, how do you think the rest of council space will feel about having geth with reaper code (a decision I don't think I was really happy with) living among them?  The geth seem to only attack if provoked, but I feel like they would be.

[Taboo]

The Angry One wrote...

But logic dictates, he shouldn't be limbing.

Logic? In synthesis? Surely you jest.

This.