57 réponses à ce sujet

[Sepharih]

Does anyone have a logical reason as to why the catalyst would actually choose the form of the child that doesn't involve indoctrination theory and/or the catalyst being a manipulative little bosh'tet?

In the context of indoctrination, it makes perfect sense because he's deceptive and you shouldn't trust a single word he says.  If we're supposed to take him and what he says at face value, as it's becoming more and more clear the writers intended, what exactly is his motivation for taking the child's form?  
No matter how many ways I try to see it, his avatar REEKS of emotional manipulation.

Without indoctrination, the only conclusion I can come to is that it was the writers attempt to manipulate the player/viewer into trusting him...and to say it backfired would be a colossal understatement.  I have every concievable reason to distrust this character and having him take a form meant to symbolize (by the writers own admission) Shepard's guilt and doubt just calls his motivations into question even more.


I know I'm far from the only one who's felt this way, but I honestly want to hear another perspective.  If he's genuine and trying to have a straightforward converstation with Shepard why take the child form?  What's the reasoning?

EDIT:

xsdob writes:

xsdob wrote...

Symbolic of the crucibles effect on it, changeing it and essentially causing a rebirth. For the first time it has more than one option, one solution and like a child looks to the one with more knowledge in this field, shepard, for guidance.

 

I do think this metaphor is flawed and it doesn't really affect my other issues with the catalyst's form...but I can kind of see the writers thought process with this, especially when you couple it with the Garden of Eden imagery in the synthesis ending.

Modifié par Sepharih, 01 mai 2012 - 03:32 .

[GiarcYekrub]

Because ever since Shepard saw the boy on Earth, he's been in her thoughts dreaming about him, regretfull that she couldn't save him, To shepard he represent those people lost. So it is the image foremost in her mind when the catalyst scans her, evidently as he is the only figure in any of her dreams.

Modifié par GiarcYekrub, 01 mai 2012 - 02:11 .

[sp0ck 06]

Ever seen Contact? like that.

[rachellouise]

I think it is either shepard putting that form on it, or it has a similar 'power' to the protheans, but more advanced

[babachewie]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Because ever since Shepard saw the boy on Earth, he's been in her thoughts dreaming about him, regretfull that she couldn't save him, To shepard he represent those people lost. So it is the image foremost in her mind when the catalyst scans her, evidently as he is the only figure in any of her dreams.

I agree with this, but I think it would of been really cool if it took the form of someone like Kaiden or Ashley depending on who died on Virmire. Or maybe a past love interest who died sometime like on the collecter base or in ME 3 somewhere. 

[tholloway93]

babachewie wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Because ever since Shepard saw the boy on Earth, he's been in her thoughts dreaming about him, regretfull that she couldn't save him, To shepard he represent those people lost. So it is the image foremost in her mind when the catalyst scans her, evidently as he is the only figure in any of her dreams.

I agree with this, but I think it would of been really cool if it took the form of someone like Kaiden or Ashley depending on who died on Virmire. Or maybe a past love interest who died sometime like on the collecter base or in ME 3 somewhere. 

i like the idea that it could have been whoever died on Virmire, I'd still like to know somehow though what the Catalyst's true form is.

[Elyiia]

It was Bioware trying to be deep, showing us what was supposed to be the avatar of all that we had lost. Of course it ended up being the avatar of our rage, funny that.

[AlexXIV]

Ok I hate the catalyst. But the child form and the fact that it is the child from the prologue doesn't bother me at all.

It is a surreal thing. It doesn't need to make perfect sense. It could be, you know, a trick of the mind. For some reason Shepard is dreaming of the child. We don't know why. It may have something to do what happened sometime before. The human mind works in weird ways sometimes. Maybe the child was imagination. Or maybe the look of the child was imagination. Maybe the Crucible can read Shepard's mind. I wouldn't put it beyond it. Remember, when Shepard gets lifted up to the Catalyst he/she had passed out. Might be dreaming or something. Or maybe Shepard hears/sees it as a child, but it isn't really. Trick of the mind.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 mai 2012 - 02:29 .

[Sepharih]

I guess I can sort of see the argument that it's the image at the forefront of Shepard's mind....but if that's the case then it's not doing the catalyst any favors since it's a tossup between being manipulative or completely oblivious to how loaded that form is.

Also, taking the form of the virmire sacrifice is the one form I could possibly think of that would be EVEN WORSE than the child. It's even more blatantly emotionally manipulative, and more importantly, it would work even less considering how much I despise Kaidan (don't have a single save where he lived).

[babachewie]

tholloway93 wrote...

babachewie wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Because ever since Shepard saw the boy on Earth, he's been in her thoughts dreaming about him, regretfull that she couldn't save him, To shepard he represent those people lost. So it is the image foremost in her mind when the catalyst scans her, evidently as he is the only figure in any of her dreams.

I agree with this, but I think it would of been really cool if it took the form of someone like Kaiden or Ashley depending on who died on Virmire. Or maybe a past love interest who died sometime like on the collecter base or in ME 3 somewhere. 

i like the idea that it could have been whoever died on Virmire, I'd still like to know somehow though what the Catalyst's true form is.

Chances are it doesnt have one. Just a series of code and algorithms. People like to call it star child or god child, but ultimately its just a machine or machine intelligence. A very powerful one. 

[Sepharih]

Elyiia wrote...

It was Bioware trying to be deep, showing us what was supposed to be the avatar of all that we had lost. Of course it ended up being the avatar of our rage, funny that.

See...I just don't get this...because why would they make the character who is meant to represent what you have lost and all Shepard's feelings of personal failure the avatar of the one who is behind the entire establishment that you've been fighting against for the past 3 games.  What were they trying to achieve by fliping their symbols like that?

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok I hate the catalyst. But the child form and the fact that it is the child from the prologue doesn't bother me at all.

It is a surreal thing. It doesn't need to make perfect sense. It could be, you know, a trick of the mind. For some reason Shepard is dreaming of the child. We don't know why. It may have something to do what happened sometime before. The human mind works in weird ways sometimes. Maybe the child was imagination. Or maybe the look of the child was imagination. Maybe the Crucible can read Shepard's mind. I wouldn't put it beyond it. Remember, when Shepard gets lifted up to the Catalyst he/she had passed out. Might be dreaming or something. Or maybe Shepard hears/sees it as a child, but it isn't really. Trick of the mind.

Well clearly the catalyst can read his mind since it's taking that form (unless you think the catalyst is a dream of course)....but if the best explination as to WHY the catalyst would take that form is because it was the form most on Shepard's mind.......it really doesn't do it or the writers any favors.

[babachewie]

Sepharih wrote...

I guess I can sort of see the argument that it's the image at the forefront of Shepard's mind....but if that's the case then it's not doing the catalyst any favors since it's a tossup between being manipulative or completely oblivious to how loaded that form is.

Also, taking the form of the virmire sacrifice is the one form I could possibly think of that would be EVEN WORSE than the child. It's even more blatantly emotionally manipulative, and more importantly, it would work even less considering how much I despise Kaidan (don't have a single save where he lived).

Well Bioware can't account for how every single person feels about thier characters. I do know Ashley and Kaiden have their fans. So regardless of how you feel about them, someone else probably would of had the exact opposite reaction. In my opinion I dont think it was trying to be manipulative. If it was it would of leaned heavily on one choice more than the others. Or at the very least not told you about the others. 

Modifié par babachewie, 01 mai 2012 - 02:39 .

[frylock23]

Sepharih wrote...

I guess I can sort of see the argument that it's the image at the forefront of Shepard's mind....but if that's the case then it's not doing the catalyst any favors since it's a tossup between being manipulative or completely oblivious to how loaded that form is.

Also, taking the form of the virmire sacrifice is the one form I could possibly think of that would be EVEN WORSE than the child. It's even more blatantly emotionally manipulative, and more importantly, it would work even less considering how much I despise Kaidan (don't have a single save where he lived).

The VS at least would have had true emotional impact for the playerbase since that was what the writers seemed to be going for. Even if you hated the VS which I never did and never understood the hatred for them either (dislike maybe, but hatred is over the top for a video game character), at least you felt something for them which is more genuine emotion than you developed for some random child.

But picking some random kid out of the pixellated ether and expecting us to suddenly develop deep feelings of loss because it's a kid ... yeah, cheap trick BioWare. Do you think we're dumb? That's like shooting the dog in a movie.

[frylock23]

babachewie wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

I guess I can sort of see the argument that it's the image at the forefront of Shepard's mind....but if that's the case then it's not doing the catalyst any favors since it's a tossup between being manipulative or completely oblivious to how loaded that form is.

Also, taking the form of the virmire sacrifice is the one form I could possibly think of that would be EVEN WORSE than the child. It's even more blatantly emotionally manipulative, and more importantly, it would work even less considering how much I despise Kaidan (don't have a single save where he lived).

Well Bioware can't account for how every single person feels about thier characters. I do know Ashley and Kaiden have their fans. So regardless of how you feel about them, someone else probably would of had the exact opposite reaction. In my opinion I dont think it wasn't trying to be manipulative. If it was it would of leaned heavily on one choice more than the others. Or at the very least not told you about the others. 

Ummm, did you miss the part where it did everything it could to steer you away from one choice and paint a certain other choice as sunshine and rainbows and practically giggle as you walked up to it?

Yes, it was manipulating you.

[Sepharih]

babachewie wrote...
Well Bioware can't account for how every single person feels about thier characters. I do know Ashley and Kaiden have their fans. So regardless of how you feel about them, someone else probably would of had the exact opposite reaction.  In my opinion I dont think it was trying to be manipulative. If it was it would of leaned heavily on one choice more than the others. Or at the very least not told you about the others. 

It does though, it really pushes synthesis.  Even if you think it's not pushing one choice over the others though, it still reeks of emotional manipulation to trust it in the first place.  We have nothing but its word that what it's saying is true....which we should automatically question since this is the force behind the reapers, so it has taken a more sympathetic form.
Also, whether or not you like Ashley or Kaiden definately doesn't really affect how emotinonally manipulative it would be to assume their form.

[babachewie]

frylock23 wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

I guess I can sort of see the argument that it's the image at the forefront of Shepard's mind....but if that's the case then it's not doing the catalyst any favors since it's a tossup between being manipulative or completely oblivious to how loaded that form is.

Also, taking the form of the virmire sacrifice is the one form I could possibly think of that would be EVEN WORSE than the child. It's even more blatantly emotionally manipulative, and more importantly, it would work even less considering how much I despise Kaidan (don't have a single save where he lived).

Well Bioware can't account for how every single person feels about thier characters. I do know Ashley and Kaiden have their fans. So regardless of how you feel about them, someone else probably would of had the exact opposite reaction. In my opinion I dont think it wasn't trying to be manipulative. If it was it would of leaned heavily on one choice more than the others. Or at the very least not told you about the others. 

Ummm, did you miss the part where it did everything it could to steer you away from one choice and paint a certain other choice as sunshine and rainbows and practically giggle as you walked up to it?

Yes, it was manipulating you.

I played it twice and no I dont see where it tried to steer you towards either choice. Seriously why even tell you you have choices if it  preferred one over the others. That doesnt make any sense. For example, If it was against destroy, it wouldnt of told you about that option. 

[Comguard2]

You could also ask why the Catalyst has a secret room with a fusion-device and a red tube you can shoot at to destroy the Reapers...

The whole scene makes no sense at all. Bioware wanted to be deep and artsy and failed hard.

[Sepharih]

frylock23 wrote...
The VS at least would have had true emotional impact for the playerbase since that was what the writers seemed to be going for. Even if you hated the VS which I never did and never understood the hatred for them either (dislike maybe, but hatred is over the top for a video game character), at least you felt something for them which is more genuine emotion than you developed for some random child.

But picking some random kid out of the pixellated ether and expecting us to suddenly develop deep feelings of loss because it's a kid ... yeah, cheap trick BioWare. Do you think we're dumb? That's like shooting the dog in a movie.

Well...the problem with me is that the primary emotion I felt towards Kaidan was of disdain and seething frustration.  One issue I've always had with ME1 is that the big moment where you're supposed to make the "hard choice" was pretty much the easiest choice in the game for me when I realized I would never have to hear Kaidan again.

I know that's definately not everyone's experience, not by a longshot....but for better or worse I actually did care more about the fate of random space kid than I did mr. Alenko, so it's kind of hard for me to fault the game on that particular aspect.

[GiarcYekrub]

Have a low enough EMS and you don't even get the synthsis option

[Sepharih]

babachewie wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

I guess I can sort of see the argument that it's the image at the forefront of Shepard's mind....but if that's the case then it's not doing the catalyst any favors since it's a tossup between being manipulative or completely oblivious to how loaded that form is.

Also, taking the form of the virmire sacrifice is the one form I could possibly think of that would be EVEN WORSE than the child. It's even more blatantly emotionally manipulative, and more importantly, it would work even less considering how much I despise Kaidan (don't have a single save where he lived).

Well Bioware can't account for how every single person feels about thier characters. I do know Ashley and Kaiden have their fans. So regardless of how you feel about them, someone else probably would of had the exact opposite reaction. In my opinion I dont think it wasn't trying to be manipulative. If it was it would of leaned heavily on one choice more than the others. Or at the very least not told you about the others. 

Ummm, did you miss the part where it did everything it could to steer you away from one choice and paint a certain other choice as sunshine and rainbows and practically giggle as you walked up to it?

Yes, it was manipulating you.

I played it twice and no I dont see where it tried to steer you towards either choice. Seriously why even tell you you have choices if it  preferred one over the others. That doesnt make any sense. For example, If it was against destroy, it wouldnt of told you about that option. 

Control can be argued, but he specifically says about synthetsis that it is "The final evolution of life, but we need each other to make it happen".
Sounds like high praise to me.

Comguard2 wrote...

You could also ask why the Catalyst has a secret room with a fusion-device and a red tube you can shoot at to destroy the Reapers...

The whole scene makes no sense at all. Bioware wanted to be deep and artsy and failed hard.

 
I don't disagree....but I'm really just trying to figure out what their reasoning was behind this particular choice.

Modifié par Sepharih, 01 mai 2012 - 02:51 .

[Comguard2]

"I played it twice and no I dont see where it tried to steer you towards either choice. Seriously why even tell you you have choices if it preferred one over the others. "

Vent-boy makes it quite clear that fusion is the "best" option:

- Fusion: circle breaks, next step of evolution
- Control: who prevents organics from building synthetics that kill organics without synthetics that can kill organics before they build synthetics that kill organics?
- destroy: Geth will die, Shepard will die

Why they put the last-breath scene after the destroy-ending is still beyond my understanding.

[AlexXIV]

Well for IT theorists I think it is a sign of indoctrination. Maybe Shep's implants have that effect since the Reapers arrived at earth. Like an echo that reaches out to Shep's mind.

You have to see, it is difficult to display illusions/mind tricks in a game. Or movie. Just think if Sixth Sense. Or The Others. You can go for a while thinking that an illusion is real and then suddenly ... poof ... the reveal. That's something that is sorely missing in ME3. No conclusion. At the end they should lift the curtain and show things that are real, but instead in the end things start getting surreal and leave you without answers. It's like they held the book "How to do illusions in a story." upside down.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 mai 2012 - 02:54 .

[babachewie]

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...
Well Bioware can't account for how every single person feels about thier characters. I do know Ashley and Kaiden have their fans. So regardless of how you feel about them, someone else probably would of had the exact opposite reaction.  In my opinion I dont think it was trying to be manipulative. If it was it would of leaned heavily on one choice more than the others. Or at the very least not told you about the others. 

It does though, it really pushes synthesis.  Even if you think it's not pushing one choice over the others though, it still reeks of emotional manipulation to trust it in the first place.  We have nothing but its word that what it's saying is true....which we should automatically question since this is the force behind the reapers, so it has taken a more sympathetic form.
Also, whether or not you like Ashley or Kaiden definately doesn't really affect how emotinonally manipulative it would be to assume their form.

Say if you don't trust it, what then? You just sit their and bleed out. You can't punch it. You can't destroy. It's a very old and powerful machine intelligence and I highly doubt it can be reasoned with. So what then? People are dying, the war rages on, and everyone knew this thing was a hail mary to begin with. It was thier only option. Might as well use it, cause if not everyones gonna die or be inslaved anyway. 

Modifié par babachewie, 01 mai 2012 - 02:56 .

[Sepharih]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well for IT theorists I think it is sign of indoctrination. Maybe Shep's implants have that effect since the Reapers arrived at earth. Like an echo that reaches out to Shep's mind.

You have to see, it is difficult to display illusions/mind tricks in a game. Or movie. Just think if Sixth Sense. Or The Others. You can go for a while thinking that an illusion is real and then suddenly ... poof ... the reveal. That's something that is sorely missing in ME3. No conclusion. At the end they should lift the curtain and show things that are real, but instead in the end things start getting surreal and leave you without answers. It's like they held the book "How to do illusions in a story." upside down.

Indoctriantion is how I choose to interpret the ending, so I'm with you on this, but if Bioware's intent was for the ending to be taken at face value i'm just trying to understand their reasoning....cause I'm having trouble understanding how they didn't see the implacations of the catalyst's avatar.

[babachewie]

[quote]Sepharih wrote...

[quote]babachewie wrote...

[quote]frylock23 wrote...

[quote]babachewie wrote...

[quote]Sepharih wrote...

I guess I can sort of see the argument that it's the image at the forefront of Shepard's mind....but if that's the case then it's not doing the catalyst any favors since it's a tossup between being manipulative or completely oblivious to how loaded that form is.

Also, taking the form of the virmire sacrifice is the one form I could possibly think of that would be EVEN WORSE than the child. It's even more blatantly emotionally manipulative, and more importantly, it would work even less considering how much I despise Kaidan (don't have a single save where he lived).[/quote] Well Bioware can't account for how every single person feels about thier characters. I do know Ashley and Kaiden have their fans. So regardless of how you feel about them, someone else probably would of had the exact opposite reaction. In my opinion I dont think it wasn't trying to be manipulative. If it was it would of leaned heavily on one choice more than the others. Or at the very least not told you about the others. 
[/quote]

Ummm, did you miss the part where it did everything it could to steer you away from one choice and paint a certain other choice as sunshine and rainbows and practically giggle as you walked up to it?

Yes, it was manipulating you.[/quote] I played it twice and no I dont see where it tried to steer you towards either choice. Seriously why even tell you you have choices if it  preferred one over the others. That doesnt make any sense. For example, If it was against destroy, it wouldnt of told you about that option. 
[/quote]

Control can be argued, but he specifically says about synthetsis that it is "The final evolution of life, but we need each other to make it happen".
Sounds like high praise to me.


[quote] Doesnt sound like praise to me. Sounds like hes just explaining what it does.