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[AlexXIV]

babachewie wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...
Well Bioware can't account for how every single person feels about thier characters. I do know Ashley and Kaiden have their fans. So regardless of how you feel about them, someone else probably would of had the exact opposite reaction.  In my opinion I dont think it was trying to be manipulative. If it was it would of leaned heavily on one choice more than the others. Or at the very least not told you about the others. 

It does though, it really pushes synthesis.  Even if you think it's not pushing one choice over the others though, it still reeks of emotional manipulation to trust it in the first place.  We have nothing but its word that what it's saying is true....which we should automatically question since this is the force behind the reapers, so it has taken a more sympathetic form.
Also, whether or not you like Ashley or Kaiden definately doesn't really affect how emotinonally manipulative it would be to assume their form.

Say if you don't trust it, what then? You just sit their and bleed out. You can't punch it. You can't destroy. It's a very old and powerful machine intelligence and I highly doubt it can be reasoned with. So what then? People are dying, the war rages on, and everyone knew this thing was a hail mary to begin with. It was thier only option. Might as well use it, cause if not everyones gonna die or be inslaved anyway. 

You accept that a situation makes no sense and try to make the best of it. But we say that the situation makes no sense and want it changed. Seriously, you already reason with the starchild. You even get to choose. Either you have power or not. That the starchild doesn't let you do what you want but lets you pick from 3 options who are that controversional is nothing but Bioware being the Starchild who hands you 3 endings because they know we will want different endings. It makes no sense in context of the plot or situation. It is just a guy at the end that gives you what you are supposed to want. Option. Just that they are no real options and just that they are not what most people want either.

[xsdob]

Symbolic of the crucibles effect on it, changeing it and essentially causing a rebirth. For the first time it has more than one option, one solution and like a child looks to the one with more knowledge in this field, shepard, for guidance.

[AlexXIV]

xsdob wrote...

Symbolic of the crucibles effect on it, changeing it and essentially causing a rebirth. For the first time it has more than one option, one solution and like a child looks to the one with more knowledge in this field, shepard, for guidance.

Problem, my Shepard didn't like any of the 3 options. What now?

Really I want explained why shutting down the Reapers and salving them, rebuilding the galaxy was not an option. Why is it necessary to destroy everything. I have not understand the logic. The Starchild 'controls' the Reapers. That suggests that they do what it wants. If it tells them to stop, they stop. Or not?

[frylock23]

Sepharih wrote...

frylock23 wrote...
The VS at least would have had true emotional impact for the playerbase since that was what the writers seemed to be going for. Even if you hated the VS which I never did and never understood the hatred for them either (dislike maybe, but hatred is over the top for a video game character), at least you felt something for them which is more genuine emotion than you developed for some random child.

But picking some random kid out of the pixellated ether and expecting us to suddenly develop deep feelings of loss because it's a kid ... yeah, cheap trick BioWare. Do you think we're dumb? That's like shooting the dog in a movie.

Well...the problem with me is that the primary emotion I felt towards Kaidan was of disdain and seething frustration.  One issue I've always had with ME1 is that the big moment where you're supposed to make the "hard choice" was pretty much the easiest choice in the game for me when I realized I would never have to hear Kaidan again.

I know that's definately not everyone's experience, not by a longshot....but for better or worse I actually did care more about the fate of random space kid than I did mr. Alenko, so it's kind of hard for me to fault the game on that particular aspect.

I've heard he has very different dialogue for even a friend femShep then he does for a broShep in ME1 and that sparks some of the different reaction, but I never had any issues with him or Ashley either one. If I reacted negatively to any of the ME1 characters, it was Liara who just came off as about as mature as a 12-year-old, and then she kept hitting on me which I found creepy as all hell. I would have left her on Virmire if I could have just to avoid that awkwardness even though I didn't hate or dislike her per se, just that awkward feeling.

But, I guess a familiarity with film and fiction tropes made me spot the random kid killing from miles away, and I went "oh, no!" random kid death." After all, everyone know you never kill the kid or the dog.

[babachewie]

AlexXIV wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...
Well Bioware can't account for how every single person feels about thier characters. I do know Ashley and Kaiden have their fans. So regardless of how you feel about them, someone else probably would of had the exact opposite reaction.  In my opinion I dont think it was trying to be manipulative. If it was it would of leaned heavily on one choice more than the others. Or at the very least not told you about the others. 

It does though, it really pushes synthesis.  Even if you think it's not pushing one choice over the others though, it still reeks of emotional manipulation to trust it in the first place.  We have nothing but its word that what it's saying is true....which we should automatically question since this is the force behind the reapers, so it has taken a more sympathetic form.
Also, whether or not you like Ashley or Kaiden definately doesn't really affect how emotinonally manipulative it would be to assume their form.

Say if you don't trust it, what then? You just sit their and bleed out. You can't punch it. You can't destroy. It's a very old and powerful machine intelligence and I highly doubt it can be reasoned with. So what then? People are dying, the war rages on, and everyone knew this thing was a hail mary to begin with. It was thier only option. Might as well use it, cause if not everyones gonna die or be inslaved anyway. 

You accept that a situation makes no sense and try to make the best of it. But we say that the situation makes no sense and want it changed. Seriously, you already reason with the starchild. You even get to choose. Either you have power or not. That the starchild doesn't let you do what you want but lets you pick from 3 options who are that controversional is nothing but Bioware being the Starchild who hands you 3 endings because they know we will want different endings. It makes no sense in context of the plot or situation. It is just a guy at the end that gives you what you are supposed to want. Option. Just that they are no real options and just that they are not what most people want either.

I didnt say it didnt make sense. I dont know where you got that. Also please proof read before submiting. I'm not trying to be a dick, cause I make mistakes too, but I cant really grasp what you're trying to say in some of them. Add comas or something. Bioware is being star child? I don't know what that means. 

Modifié par babachewie, 01 mai 2012 - 03:08 .

[Sepharih]

babachewie wrote... Say if you don't trust it, what then? You just sit their and bleed out. You can't punch it. You can't destroy. It's a very old and powerful machine intelligence and I highly doubt it can be reasoned with. So what then?

I don't want this thread to get derailed into another discussion on this subject, so let me just say that my shepard would have promptly told the Catalyst "Go to hell.  I won't play god."
Then he would have gotten Hackett and the fleet on the comm and told them to give them hell.  What can I say, except that my Shepard always did have a thing for fighting against all odds  to find the solution no one else could, and holding onto hope when all seemed lost.
In any case:

You're missing my real point.  The point is, if there really is no solution beyond these three choices (which is a flawed argument anyway, considering that the options could be whatever the writers made them to be), and we are supposed to take the catalyst and what he tells you......it's probably not a good idea to give him a form that immediately makes us question his motives for taking it.
I LITERALLY would have trusted the catalyst more if he had taken the form of a Reaper...because at least that would have felt like a more honest conversation....not like he was trying to make me sympathise with him just becasue he looked like a child.

[CapnManx]

On my first play through, I didn't even get offered synthesis; so the Catalyst didn't come across as manipulative, more just generally disgruntled that I'd messed up his 'solution'. Consequently, I just came to the conclusion that it simply picked an image that was prominent in Shepard's mind.

On later games, my view didn't really change. I got offered synthesis, but there didn't seem to be anything strange about it favouring it over the other options. It does say that a new solution is required; control and destroy aren't really solutions at all (from the Catalyst's point of view anyway). Destroy just means leaving it up to fate, and control might not change anything (since, as I understand it, it is implied that Shepard would feel compelled to return in 50 thousand years and carry on the Reaper's mission).

[GLR-0053]

xsdob wrote...

Symbolic of the crucibles effect on it, changeing it and essentially causing a rebirth. For the first time it has more than one option, one solution and like a child looks to the one with more knowledge in this field, shepard, for guidance.

Other way around. Shepard is the one looking for the answers, the Catalyst is the one who is guiding him.

Shepard is the lost lamb, gazing in awe at the sight of a God.

[AlexXIV]

babachewie wrote...
 I didnt say it didnt make sense. I dont know where you got that. Also please proof read before submiting. I'm not trying to be a dick, cause I make mistakes too, but I cant really grasp what you're trying to say in some of them. Add comas or something. Bioware is being star child? I don't know what that means. 

I never said you said it. You do it. Sry that you cannot follow my sentence but that's not really the problem of my writing, rather of your understanding. Bioware is the Starchild. The Starchild/Bioware tells you: " You are at the end of the story, here are your promised choices." And some people take offense because they wanted an ending that also makes sense in context of the story and lore and not just "Here is your cheeseburger, want something to drink too?".

Sorry but everyone who likes the endings at some point shows that he is just slow thinking. You are no exception.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 mai 2012 - 03:15 .

[Gorkan86]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Because ever since Shepard saw the boy on Earth, he's been in her thoughts dreaming about him, regretfull that she couldn't save him, To shepard he represent those people lost. So it is the image foremost in her mind when the catalyst scans her, evidently as he is the only figure in any of her dreams.

I agree with this.

[Sepharih]

 

xsdob wrote...

Symbolic of the crucibles effect on it, changeing it and essentially causing a rebirth. For the first time it has more than one option, one solution and like a child looks to the one with more knowledge in this field, shepard, for guidance.

 
....You know what, that actually does make sense.  It doesn't change my overall opinion about the catalyst because of the other reasons I mentioned...but I can definately see what they were going for especially when you connect it with the Garden of Eden metaphor in synthesis.  I'm starting to see what the were trying to say with it.

babachewie wrote...
Doesnt sound like praise to me. Sounds like hes just explaining what it does.

 
Saying that it's the "Final evolution of life" and suggesting that it's a positive coming together of synthetics and organics doesn't explain what it does anymore than what he's already said.  Clearly they're meant to be positive connotations.

[babachewie]

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote... Say if you don't trust it, what then? You just sit their and bleed out. You can't punch it. You can't destroy. It's a very old and powerful machine intelligence and I highly doubt it can be reasoned with. So what then?

I don't want this thread to get derailed into another discussion on this subject, so let me just say that my shepard would have promptly told the Catalyst "Go to hell.  I won't play god."
Then he would have gotten Hackett and the fleet on the comm and told them to give them hell.  What can I say, except that my Shepard always did have a thing for fighting against all odds  to find the solution no one else could, and holding onto hope when all seemed lost.
In any case:

You're missing my real point.  The point is, if there really is no solution beyond these three choices (which is a flawed argument anyway, considering that the options could be whatever the writers made them to be), and we are supposed to take the catalyst and what he tells you......it's probably not a good idea to give him a form that immediately makes us question his motives for taking it.
I LITERALLY would have trusted the catalyst more if he had taken the form of a Reaper...because at least that would have felt like a more honest conversation....not like he was trying to make me sympathise with him just becasue he looked like a child.

Well of course the writers could of made them do whatever they wanted, but did you really think they were gonna have the conversation wheel pop up and 50 different choices were going to pop out to chose from? Also I seriously dont think I would of choosen to trust a reaper form of any kind. People like to talk about what their shepard would of done and this and that, but ultimately its not really your shepard or mine. No matter what your set down a direct path to stopping the collecters or reapers no matter what. Yes how you get their is up to you, but you can't deviate from the mission. I mean if Shepard was truely mine, I probably wouldnt of worked with cerburus and the Illusive man in the 2nd game. You're stuck with that no matter what reagardless how you felt about experiments with throrian creepers and rachni or killing Admiral Kohoku. As much choice as you have, its still a game and you have to play by its rules.

[babachewie]

AlexXIV wrote...

babachewie wrote...
 I didnt say it didnt make sense. I dont know where you got that. Also please proof read before submiting. I'm not trying to be a dick, cause I make mistakes too, but I cant really grasp what you're trying to say in some of them. Add comas or something. Bioware is being star child? I don't know what that means. 

I never said you said it. You do it. Sry that you cannot follow my sentence but that's not really the problem of my writing, rather of your understanding. Bioware is the Starchild. The Starchild/Bioware tells you: " You are at the end of the story, here are your promised choices." And some people take offense because they wanted an ending that also makes sense in context of the story and lore and not just "Here is your cheeseburger, want something to drink too?".

Sorry but everyone who likes the endings at some point shows that he is just slow thinking. You are no exception.

Well I'm glad you finally resorted to personal attacks and showed your true colors just like most people here do. Theres no point in continuing this conversation. 

[Sepharih]

GLR-0053 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Symbolic of the crucibles effect on it, changeing it and essentially causing a rebirth. For the first time it has more than one option, one solution and like a child looks to the one with more knowledge in this field, shepard, for guidance.

Other way around. Shepard is the one looking for the answers, the Catalyst is the one who is guiding him.

Shepard is the lost lamb, gazing in awe at the sight of a God.

It's definately a flawed metaphor and it doesn't really work, but I can see the thought process behind it now.

Modifié par Sepharih, 01 mai 2012 - 03:27 .

[AlexXIV]

babachewie wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

babachewie wrote...
 I didnt say it didnt make sense. I dont know where you got that. Also please proof read before submiting. I'm not trying to be a dick, cause I make mistakes too, but I cant really grasp what you're trying to say in some of them. Add comas or something. Bioware is being star child? I don't know what that means. 

I never said you said it. You do it. Sry that you cannot follow my sentence but that's not really the problem of my writing, rather of your understanding. Bioware is the Starchild. The Starchild/Bioware tells you: " You are at the end of the story, here are your promised choices." And some people take offense because they wanted an ending that also makes sense in context of the story and lore and not just "Here is your cheeseburger, want something to drink too?".

Sorry but everyone who likes the endings at some point shows that he is just slow thinking. You are no exception.

Well I'm glad you finally resorted to personal attacks and showed your true colors just like most people here do. Theres no point in continuing this conversation. 

What do you mean by finally? I resort to personal attacks all the time. At least when it is about telling people that they are slow. Or wrong.

[Sepharih]

babachewie wrote...Well of course the writers could of made them do whatever they wanted, but did you really think they were gonna have the conversation wheel pop up and 50 different choices were going to pop out to chose from? Also I seriously dont think I would of choosen to trust a reaper form of any kind. People like to talk about what their shepard would of done and this and that, but ultimately its not really your shepard or mine. No matter what your set down a direct path to stopping the collecters or reapers no matter what. Yes how you get their is up to you, but you can't deviate from the mission. I mean if Shepard was truely mine, I probably wouldnt of worked with cerburus and the Illusive man in the 2nd game. You're stuck with that no matter what reagardless how you felt about experiments with throrian creepers and rachni or killing Admiral Kohoku. As much choice as you have, its still a game and you have to play by its rules.

The freedom I have to do as I choose may be limited by what the writers will allow...but that doesn't change my point since what I described above was fairly consistent with what my Shepard character had gone with up till then.

[babachewie]

Sepharih wrote...

 

xsdob wrote...

Symbolic of the crucibles effect on it, changeing it and essentially causing a rebirth. For the first time it has more than one option, one solution and like a child looks to the one with more knowledge in this field, shepard, for guidance.

 
....You know what, that actually does make sense.  It doesn't change my overall opinion about the catalyst because of the other reasons I mentioned...but I can definately see what they were going for especially when you connect it with the Garden of Eden metaphor in synthesis.  I'm starting to see what the were trying to say with it.

babachewie wrote...
Doesnt sound like praise to me. Sounds like hes just explaining what it does.

 
Saying that it's the "Final evolution of life" and suggesting that it's a positive coming together of synthetics and organics doesn't explain what it does anymore than what he's already said.  Clearly they're meant to be positive connotations.

i still don't see how it seemed like it favored it over the others. How would he of explained it to make sound less positive or favored in your eyes?

Modifié par babachewie, 01 mai 2012 - 03:31 .

[babachewie]

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...Well of course the writers could of made them do whatever they wanted, but did you really think they were gonna have the conversation wheel pop up and 50 different choices were going to pop out to chose from? Also I seriously dont think I would of choosen to trust a reaper form of any kind. People like to talk about what their shepard would of done and this and that, but ultimately its not really your shepard or mine. No matter what your set down a direct path to stopping the collecters or reapers no matter what. Yes how you get their is up to you, but you can't deviate from the mission. I mean if Shepard was truely mine, I probably wouldnt of worked with cerburus and the Illusive man in the 2nd game. You're stuck with that no matter what reagardless how you felt about experiments with throrian creepers and rachni or killing Admiral Kohoku. As much choice as you have, its still a game and you have to play by its rules.

The freedom I have to do as I choose may be limited by what the writers will allow...but that doesn't change my point since what I described above was fairly consistent with what my Shepard character had gone with up till then.

Well I'm sorry that happened to you, but thats the one of the problems with the illusion of choice. Eventually the illusion becomes more apparent and is hard to deal with. 

[Sepharih]

babachewie wrote...
How would he of explained it to make sound less positive or favored in your eyes?

He could not say the lines I've specifically mentioned.  Keep everything before shepard says "I don't know" in the conversation and he sounds relatively impartial.

babachewie wrote...Well I'm sorry that happened to you, but thats the one of the problems with the illusion of choice. Eventually the illusion becomes more apparent and is hard to deal with. 

 
The Illusion of "choice" isn't the problem so much as the fact that all 3 choices you are presented with are contradictory to the themes of story.

[babachewie]

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...
How would he of explained it to make sound less positive or favored in your eyes?

He could not say the lines I've specifically mentioned.  Keep everything before shepard says "I don't know" in the conversation and he sounds relatively impartial.

babachewie wrote...Well I'm sorry that happened to you, but thats the one of the problems with the illusion of choice. Eventually the illusion becomes more apparent and is hard to deal with. 

 
The Illusion of "choice" isn't the problem so much as the fact that all 3 choices you are presented with are contradictory to the themes of story.

What is the theme of the story in your opinion?

[Sepharih]

babachewie wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...
How would he of explained it to make sound less positive or favored in your eyes?

He could not say the lines I've specifically mentioned.  Keep everything before shepard says "I don't know" in the conversation and he sounds relatively impartial.

babachewie wrote...Well I'm sorry that happened to you, but thats the one of the problems with the illusion of choice. Eventually the illusion becomes more apparent and is hard to deal with. 

 
The Illusion of "choice" isn't the problem so much as the fact that all 3 choices you are presented with are contradictory to the themes of story.

What is the theme of the story in your opinion?

The primary theme of the series I would say is about determinism versus fatalism, with another important theme being the strength of unity with diversity.

[babachewie]

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...
How would he of explained it to make sound less positive or favored in your eyes?

He could not say the lines I've specifically mentioned.  Keep everything before shepard says "I don't know" in the conversation and he sounds relatively impartial.

babachewie wrote...Well I'm sorry that happened to you, but thats the one of the problems with the illusion of choice. Eventually the illusion becomes more apparent and is hard to deal with. 

 
The Illusion of "choice" isn't the problem so much as the fact that all 3 choices you are presented with are contradictory to the themes of story.

What is the theme of the story in your opinion?

The primary theme of the series I would say is about determinism versus fatalism, with another important theme being the strength of unity with diversity.

I can see that. I'd say the primary theme is freedom. Seems like most races are looking for some form of it. The Krogan want freedom from genophage, the geth from the quarians, humanity from the council, who many believe are holding them back. Or organics in genral from the Reapers and so on. If you consider the catalyst as some sort of god, which i think most people seem to since thats what they call it, then each choice tends to offer some sort of freedom from that god. Whether it be, to control him, Merge with him, or destroy him. It takes god out of the picture and gives organics a fresh start to determine its future on its own.

Modifié par babachewie, 01 mai 2012 - 04:29 .

[adam32867]

i thought the question would be "what are you smoking?"

[Sepharih]

babachewie wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...
How would he of explained it to make sound less positive or favored in your eyes?

He could not say the lines I've specifically mentioned.  Keep everything before shepard says "I don't know" in the conversation and he sounds relatively impartial.

babachewie wrote...Well I'm sorry that happened to you, but thats the one of the problems with the illusion of choice. Eventually the illusion becomes more apparent and is hard to deal with. 

 
The Illusion of "choice" isn't the problem so much as the fact that all 3 choices you are presented with are contradictory to the themes of story.

What is the theme of the story in your opinion?

The primary theme of the series I would say is about determinism versus fatalism, with another important theme being the strength of unity with diversity.

I can see that. I'd say the primary theme is freedom. Seems like most races are looking for some form of it. The Krogan want freedom from genophage, the geth from the quarians, humanity from the council, who many believe are holding them back. Or organics in genral from the Reapers and so on. If you consider the catalyst as some sort of god, which i think most people seem to since thats what they call it, then each choice tends to offer some sort of freedom from that god. Whether it be, to control him, Merge with him, or destroy him. It takes god out of the picture and gives organics a fresh start to determine its future on its own.

Destroy kind of works on that level...though it still requires a stupid leap of faith and unfortunately because of the Geth it gets wrapped up in the context of whether or not you think synthetic life is as valid as any other life (which is an important aspect of the paragon arc), so it's still contradictory to the story.....but it sort of works.

Control and Synthesis on the other hand have Shepard play god either by litterally replacing him, or by converting every living thing to his ideal image of life.  See the problem?

[Christianswe]

No. There is no reason. Or anything.. Regarding that.. Sorry..