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[babachewie]

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Sepharih wrote...

babachewie wrote...
How would he of explained it to make sound less positive or favored in your eyes?

He could not say the lines I've specifically mentioned.  Keep everything before shepard says "I don't know" in the conversation and he sounds relatively impartial.

babachewie wrote...Well I'm sorry that happened to you, but thats the one of the problems with the illusion of choice. Eventually the illusion becomes more apparent and is hard to deal with. 

 
The Illusion of "choice" isn't the problem so much as the fact that all 3 choices you are presented with are contradictory to the themes of story.

What is the theme of the story in your opinion?

The primary theme of the series I would say is about determinism versus fatalism, with another important theme being the strength of unity with diversity.

I can see that. I'd say the primary theme is freedom. Seems like most races are looking for some form of it. The Krogan want freedom from genophage, the geth from the quarians, humanity from the council, who many believe are holding them back. Or organics in genral from the Reapers and so on. If you consider the catalyst as some sort of god, which i think most people seem to since thats what they call it, then each choice tends to offer some sort of freedom from that god. Whether it be, to control him, Merge with him, or destroy him. It takes god out of the picture and gives organics a fresh start to determine its future on its own.

Destroy kind of works on that level...though it still requires a stupid leap of faith and unfortunately because of the Geth it gets wrapped up in the context of whether or not you think synthetic life is as valid as any other life (which is an important aspect of the paragon arc), so it's still contradictory to the story.....but it sort of works.

Control and Synthesis on the other hand have Shepard play god either by litterally replacing him, or by converting every living thing to his ideal image of life.  See the problem?

Exactly. Syntheic life and its role in the universe is a huge theme in the series which ultimately why I think the ending and its choices fit within it. Yes the paragon route normally sides with the notion synthetics are equal to organics, but with the possibility of taking a way out to where the reapers are destroyed for good, do you forgo your priciples for the greater good? Thats a tough call. The needs of the few.... Also regardless of whether shepard controls god or merges with god, god is rendered irelevant. The cycle of a galactic flood wiping out everything every  50,000 years and starting over is history. The ending is so riddled with religous overtones that it would be impossible to really nail down exactly what happended. It's the same with 2001, Blade Runner, Battlestar Gallatica. When writers try to merge science fiction with religon it rarely wraps up nice and neat. I think then ending better than the credit its given. Even though i would of liked it to of been a little more triumphant. 

[pistolols]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Ever seen Contact? like that.

This.

That's all i was thinking when i saw him.  I didn't really give it any more thought until i came to the forum and see all the IT stuff.

btw for those who don't know in the movie Contact the aliens you finally get to meet at the end of the movie take the form of the main character's dead father.

Modifié par pistolols, 01 mai 2012 - 05:09 .

[Ieldra]

I don't hate the Catalyst, I just hate the form, and the fact we're forced to accept its reasoning without even being able to ask questions.

I would've liked it much better had it taken the form of a glowing sphere or something like that.

[Armass81]

"We tought this would be easier for you"

[Sepharih]

It's been a very long time since I've seen contact, but I do remember the scene where she meets her "father".  In that case I don't see an issue because the movie never really suggests that the aliens intentions are malecious.  It's still kind of emotionally manipulative, but there's relatively little for them to gain by it.

That's not the case with the catalyst.  The reapers have everything to gain by manipulating the human who is holding a gun to the head of the universe.

babachewie wrote...Exactly. Syntheic life and its role in the universe is a huge theme in the series which ultimately why I think the ending and its choices fit within it. Yes the paragon route normally sides with the notion synthetics are equal to organics, but with the possibility of taking a way out to where the reapers are destroyed for good, do you forgo your priciples for the greater good? Thats a tough call. The needs of the few.... Also regardless of whether shepard controls god or merges with god, god is rendered irelevant. The cycle of a galactic flood wiping out everything every  50,000 years and starting over is history. The ending is so riddled with religous overtones that it would be impossible to really nail down exactly what happended. It's the same with 2001, Blade Runner, Battlestar Gallatica. When writers try to merge science fiction with religon it rarely wraps up nice and neat. I think then ending better than the credit its given. Even though i would of liked it to of been a little more triumphant. 

God is hardly irrelevant considering that in control Shepard effectively becomes god, and in synthesis the entire galaxy is rewritten to conform to his ideals.
Eitherway the fact the endings reflect difficult, even impossible, choices does not make them coherent endings to the story of ME3 and in fact I find their solutions to be the antithesis of everything the series has been.

[babachewie]

Sepharih wrote...

It's been a very long time since I've seen contact, but I do remember the scene where she meets her "father".  In that case I don't see an issue because the movie never really suggests that the aliens intentions are malecious.  It's still kind of emotionally manipulative, but there's relatively little for them to gain by it.

That's not the case with the catalyst.  The reapers have everything to gain by manipulating the human who is holding a gun to the head of the universe.

babachewie wrote...Exactly. Syntheic life and its role in the universe is a huge theme in the series which ultimately why I think the ending and its choices fit within it. Yes the paragon route normally sides with the notion synthetics are equal to organics, but with the possibility of taking a way out to where the reapers are destroyed for good, do you forgo your priciples for the greater good? Thats a tough call. The needs of the few.... Also regardless of whether shepard controls god or merges with god, god is rendered irelevant. The cycle of a galactic flood wiping out everything every  50,000 years and starting over is history. The ending is so riddled with religous overtones that it would be impossible to really nail down exactly what happended. It's the same with 2001, Blade Runner, Battlestar Gallatica. When writers try to merge science fiction with religon it rarely wraps up nice and neat. I think then ending better than the credit its given. Even though i would of liked it to of been a little more triumphant. 

God is hardly irrelevant considering that in control Shepard effectively becomes god, and in synthesis the entire galaxy is rewritten to conform to his ideals.
Eitherway the fact the endings reflect difficult, even impossible, choices does not make them coherent endings to the story of ME3 and in fact I find their solutions to be the antithesis of everything the series has been.

He doesnt become god. Synthesis isn't about conforming to his ideals either. I don't really think you know what you're talking about. Like most people who don't like the endings. I also don't beelive you understood the series as a whole. The whole sereis is riddled with religous overtones. Most people just dont see them. Believe me the ending fit perfect with the theme of the story. http://www.penny-arc...enriching-lives

[Sepharih]

babachewie wrote...
He doesnt become god. Synthesis isn't about conforming to his ideals either. I don't really think you know what you're talking about.

If you take the endings at face value then whether or not he takes control, merges with, or replaces the Deus Ex Machina is a fairly pointless distinction from where I'm sitting.

And yes, synthesis is about conforming to his ideals.  He literally tells you that he believes "Synthesis is the final evolution of life", and outlines that the only way he will cease the cycle (aside from you either forcing him or destroying him) is to completely convert the entire galaxy to it.

babachewie wrote... 
Like most people who don't like the endings. I also don't beelive you understood the series as a whole. The whole sereis is riddled with religous overtones. Most people just dont see them. Believe me the ending fit perfect with the theme of the story. http://www.penny-arc...enriching-lives

Sure the series has plenty of religious symbolism.  The christ imagery for Shepard alone was pretty obvious in ME2. Symbolism and allegory don't somehow make up for poor story structure alone.  See the Matrix sequels for further examples of this.

[Shaoken]

Without IT? The Starchild just took a form that Shepard had been having nightmares about because there was some connection there.