324 réponses à ce sujet

[xsdob]

Deltoran wrote...

Wow we have such a nice and pleasant community.../sarcasm.

In all seriousness, I'm shocked that Bioware would let anyone even associated with them say crap like that guy did without some sort of PR sign-off first. It's just dropping salt on an open wound. At this point they should really try to avoid irritating the fans more than they already are. But alas, I guess EA/Bioware can't assume direct control of all their employees lol...

You talk as if they actually control more than just resources and revenue. Unfortunatly, all the companies under ea have been allowed to maintain their autonomy, meaning that they couldn't control what this guy said as much as the federal goverment can control what the local states can say or do, they unfortunatly cannot do much to stop it, if they could the terms death panels wouldn't have been concieved and spread by a sitting us senator.

He's an ****, he deserves all the negative things he's getting, bioware does not.

You want to express how much you hate the company that this guy works for and represent than go and boycott mythic entertainment's devision and write about your anger on their forums.

EDIT: I'm really sorry if this rubs you the wrong way but no body seems to aknowledge the fact that this isn't a bioware or ea representative but a mythic representative. Hell, I had to google who he was to find this out because neither the original post or the poster here felt the need to point it out themselves.

So way to do some fox news jorunalism there, keep it up escapist.

Modifié par xsdob, 02 mai 2012 - 01:24 .

[leapingmonkeys]

incinerator950 wrote...

leapingmonkeys wrote...

He seems to forget that he won't be making games if we don't buy them. Our opinion more important than his opinion if his need for our money is greater than our need for his games.

What is ironic is - Bioware keeps talking about the 75 critics who gave great reviews to ME3 - wonder how many of them ever made games? Perhaps their opinions also don't matter?

No, they do.  While you might not view it, there are at least two game award critics and three randoms who will look at those reviews.

If you're wondering who has the greatest opinion, its shareholders and stock owners, not random customers. 

Shareholders don't have opinions on the quality of the games - they care whether the Company is profitable.  This has been EA's problem for a while now and the reason why their stock value has been on a steady decline for some time now.

But that factoid is irrelevant as the initial discussion was the premise from the video clip that only those who make games are entitled to have opinions about them.  So stock holders are irrelevant to this discussion.  The critics and the customers are relevant as they are the ones who have the opinions regarding the games.

[Xenite]

John Epler wrote...

Skyline45 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

As with all BioWare staff, his opinion is his own.

I'm of the school of thought that 'if you consume a product, you are welcome to criticize and critique it'. That doesn't mean that, occasionally, you aren't going to necessarily understand something that's rather specialized - but why would you? It's not your job to know about things like production and resource costs. That's the job of the company - all you need to know is 'did I enjoy the product' and 'what parts of the game did I or did I not enjoy'.

If I dont know the details you describe then how can I make an informed purchase as a consumer?

Because the details that should inform your purchase aren't things like 'how many man hours is it going to take to implement this feature' or 'what's the cost of outsourcing X art asset versus doing it in-house', but rather 'does this feature do what I want' or 'is this content the sort of thing I'm going to enjoy?' That's what I mean when I talk about things that, as a ocnsumer, you won't necessarily understand.

And how do you make an informed decision on those thing when you as a customer are being decieved?

Do I need to quote the massive list of untruths Bioware told us about ME3 and it's ending?

[XqctaX]

im just gonna turn bsn off before i go ranting foul word to anyone and anything with bioware.

im seriously considering NEVER bying a bioware product again.
all these broken promises and halfassed parts of the game

and you can even stop employees from kicking you customers in the nuts
while their lying on the ground.

I hope the rest of the bioware are ashamed of this guy and distances themself from this person fast

[animadpig]

I turn off the video after 10 minutes and feel waste my time to listen him because he say nothing in the first 10 minutes. If that is the level of the senior creative director of Bioware, Bioware is either running out the good people, or ME3 is the signal of the doom of Bioware.

[Richard 060]

Watched it - wow. That one statement, that only a fellow game-maker's opinion is valid, is the height of arrogance, and totally unhealthy for any creative or 'artist' to have as an attitude.


Let me demonstrate with an analogy - bear with me:


Now, I'm a musician - concert instrumentalist, recording/international touring artist, composer, etc. Not trying to brag, but just trying to demonstrate that I've got a heck of a lot of experience and training under my belt, so it's a valid comparison to the situation with EA/BioWare.

I know for a fact that 99.9999% of audience-goers that come to my concerts know either nothing about music, or have a decent appreciation for music and a layman's grasp of musical concepts, but aren't 'musicians' per se.

So, it's a fair bet that I know more about the music I'm making than any of the people in the audience.

Does that mean that their opinions on 'my art' aren't valid, simply they aren't 'part of the profession'?


**** NO.


Oh, sure, sometimes I've had criticism that can easily be deflected because they simply didn't understand something. And there's no accounting for personal taste.

But occasionally, I get feedback from 'mere civilians' (going by Barnett's apparent attitude) that is actually valid - either from people who understand music to give me something properly constructive, or just the general feeling from audience members, which is enough to tell me whether I'm successful in connecting with them or not, even on a subconscious level.

Sometimes, just being aware that what I'm doing is either really resonating with people, or conversely, not working for them, is enough to tell me what I need to work on in future - because artists can never let themselves get complacent or stagnant.

Gauge your audience's mood, and respond accordingly - sticking to your 'artistic integrity' is all well and good, but not at the cost of communicating your ideas to people who AREN'T industry professionals, and might NOT totally understand what goes into the creative process.


And even if you completely disagree with the criticism of people who you believe don't have the knowledge that you do, it's (as I said to begin with) the height of arrogance to dismiss it in a totally cavalier way. At least give your fans, your audience, the common courtesy of listening to them, and explaining yourself where necessary, rather than just shutting them out.


Because at the end of the day, they support you, they provide custom, they'll even herald you from the battlements if you're successful and popular enough. An artist is NOTHING without his/her/their audience, and the day a creative forgets that, they're doomed to make art that just might fail to connect to people - which IMO, means it isn't art anymore.

Modifié par Richard 060, 02 mai 2012 - 03:27 .

[Lethys1]

There is always going to be insider knowledge, but people are the judge of an end result.  Very few people, rhetoric and propaganda aside, can truly explain the reasons certain actions were taken that crashed the market in 2008.  You can use generalizations and what politicians have told you, but there are only a handful of technical market and economic analysts who really understand what specifically happened.  But, as a guy living in this country, I know that it sucks, regardless of why it happened.  I can still criticize.

Or if we should go to war or not.  There is classified information all the time, and I don't know personally what constitutes going to war or not, and most people don't either, especially many local representatives.  Yet, when I see the effects of a war after some time, I can then criticize if it is negative.

I don't need to be a game maker to criticize games; I have all the understanding required to criticize.  I am a consumer, and I say your game was bad, so guess what?  It doesn't matter how impressive it was behind the scenes, or how difficult, or how hard it would be to implement good features.

What I do know is that it's shameful that Fallout 2 from fourteen years ago offers more variance in its gameplay in the span of three hours than Mass Effect 3 does in its entirety.  Same goes for Dragon Age 2 and even Dragon Age for that matter, just a little less so.

You all became game makers because you like games, and now you've just lost touch.  No one wants the ME3 tweener.  It isn't a great shooter, nor a great story.  It fails on both counts.

[Edrick1976]

Why will no one from BioWare defend their fan/player base? Do they just not care? Because from the look of it they could not give a rats ass about us. WHY becuase no one has denounced what this ass hole had said. This man should be FIRED and till that happens I will have the opinion and believe that this is EV/BioWares opinion.

[2484Stryker]

I thought he was speaking with an accent, then I realized it was just "stupidity"

[MrPuschel]

Oh wow, that guy is a dick.

[Edrick1976]

John Epler wrote...

The Edge wrote...

John Epler wrote...

As with all BioWare staff, his opinion is his own.

I'm of the school of thought that 'if you consume a product, you are welcome to criticize and critique it'. That doesn't mean that, occasionally, you aren't going to necessarily understand something that's rather specialized - but why would you? It's not your job to know about things like production and resource costs. That's the job of the company - all you need to know is 'did I enjoy the product' and 'what parts of the game did I or did I not enjoy'.

I'm just confused when, on one hand, Bioware says "We are listening", yet, from Mr. Barnett, the consumers opinion doesn't matter. How does that work?

Mr. Barnett works at BioWare Mythic, and isn't involved with the Mass Effect franchise.

Anyways. That's all I'm really comfortable saying on the matter.

I did not know that BioWare Mythic was a different company then BioWare who worked on ME. Dont you all have the name "BioWare"?

[Deltoran]

xsdob wrote...

Deltoran wrote...

Wow we have such a nice and pleasant community.../sarcasm.

In all seriousness, I'm shocked that Bioware would let anyone even associated with them say crap like that guy did without some sort of PR sign-off first. It's just dropping salt on an open wound. At this point they should really try to avoid irritating the fans more than they already are. But alas, I guess EA/Bioware can't assume direct control of all their employees lol...

You talk as if they actually control more than just resources and revenue. Unfortunatly, all the companies under ea have been allowed to maintain their autonomy, meaning that they couldn't control what this guy said as much as the federal goverment can control what the local states can say or do, they unfortunatly cannot do much to stop it, if they could the terms death panels wouldn't have been concieved and spread by a sitting us senator.

He's an ****, he deserves all the negative things he's getting, bioware does not.

You want to express how much you hate the company that this guy works for and represent than go and boycott mythic entertainment's devision and write about your anger on their forums.

EDIT: I'm really sorry if this rubs you the wrong way but no body seems to aknowledge the fact that this isn't a bioware or ea representative but a mythic representative. Hell, I had to google who he was to find this out because neither the original post or the poster here felt the need to point it out themselves.

So way to do some fox news jorunalism there, keep it up escapist.

Well, you do have a bit of a hostile tone to your response but it doesn't bother me all that much.  I was simply expressing my view that I found it odd that EA didn't try to clamp down on these sort of upsets by sending out an email to all their subsidiaries or something.

I did edit a post to say that maybe they did and this guy didn't listen.  I'm not blaming all of Bioware for this issue, just expressing my surprise that they allowed this to happen and that others will see this as a statement for the company...all the subsidiaries may not be under the same control, but you'd think EA big wigs at the top would be trying their hardest to limit this sort of interaction.  That being said, I guess they can't stop everyone's mouths...kind of what I said.  Oh well, this whole situation has ruffled everyone's feathers.

[Lethys1]

Edington wrote...

Why will no one from BioWare defend their fan/player base?

That's an unreasonable question: defend from who, first of all?  The media that is defending BioWare?  If I was a Bioware employee who truly thought I made a great product and then saw the backlash, why would I then feel compelled to tell everyone how you guys are really right for feeling that way?  And if an article was written about me in a positive light, why would I then attack the guy who wrote it and say they're entitled to their opinion?

If I were a Bioware employee who felt the game wasn't good, then I'd probably keep my mouth shut because having a job is nice.  And they won't announce any regrets about game design until all the DLC has been sold and the "GotY" copies (ironic) have already been in stores for a few months.

I think the public announcements regarding game features are outright lies, and that they do not ethically sell their product.  To expect them to protect your right to criticize them, however, is going really far.

[Lethys1]

Edington wrote...

John Epler wrote...

The Edge wrote...

John Epler wrote...

As with all BioWare staff, his opinion is his own.

I'm of the school of thought that 'if you consume a product, you are welcome to criticize and critique it'. That doesn't mean that, occasionally, you aren't going to necessarily understand something that's rather specialized - but why would you? It's not your job to know about things like production and resource costs. That's the job of the company - all you need to know is 'did I enjoy the product' and 'what parts of the game did I or did I not enjoy'.

I'm just confused when, on one hand, Bioware says "We are listening", yet, from Mr. Barnett, the consumers opinion doesn't matter. How does that work?

Mr. Barnett works at BioWare Mythic, and isn't involved with the Mass Effect franchise.

Anyways. That's all I'm really comfortable saying on the matter.

I did not know that BioWare Mythic was a different company then BioWare who worked on ME. Dont you all have the name "BioWare"?

Yes, they are all Bioware, that doesn't mean they all work in the same division.  Chevy employees and Cadillac employees all work for General Motors, but that doesn't mean they are heavily involved with one another or represent the views of the other.

[Wang Lightning]

That guy is impressively terrible.
Isn't there a PR department that gets paid to help prevent employees like that from speaking in public?

[Edrick1976]

Lethys1 wrote...

Edington wrote...

John Epler wrote...

The Edge wrote...

John Epler wrote...

As with all BioWare staff, his opinion is his own.

I'm of the school of thought that 'if you consume a product, you are welcome to criticize and critique it'. That doesn't mean that, occasionally, you aren't going to necessarily understand something that's rather specialized - but why would you? It's not your job to know about things like production and resource costs. That's the job of the company - all you need to know is 'did I enjoy the product' and 'what parts of the game did I or did I not enjoy'.

I'm just confused when, on one hand, Bioware says "We are listening", yet, from Mr. Barnett, the consumers opinion doesn't matter. How does that work?

Mr. Barnett works at BioWare Mythic, and isn't involved with the Mass Effect franchise.

Anyways. That's all I'm really comfortable saying on the matter.

I did not know that BioWare Mythic was a different company then BioWare who worked on ME. Dont you all have the name "BioWare"?

Yes, they are all Bioware, that doesn't mean they all work in the same division.  Chevy employees and Cadillac employees all work for General Motors, but that doesn't mean they are heavily involved with one another or represent the views of the other.

You bring up all very good points but right now I am way to dam pissed off to listen and as far as I am consern that this Dushbag works at BIOWARE and I could care less if he is some ass hole from Mythic he now works for BIOWARE!!!. IF BIOWARE did not want this kinda of assoation they should not have sold their SOUL to EA for 600 Million.

[Edrick1976]

I need to walk away if I am to dam pissed to where I can't listen then I need to walk away... over a stuped videogame company what a wast of my time trying to save BioWare when they dont even care them selves.... I am done.

[Oldbones2]

That would seem to imply that we have no right to legitimately complain (we can have an opinion, but we must keep it to ourselves) about anything other than our chosen field.

So if I find a hair in my food, since I never worked in a restaurant apparently, I can't even send it back?


Fail.

[InvincibleHero]

IanPolaris wrote...

flub3 wrote...

This is how companies start to go under. Pride always accompanies the fall. He is literally taking a crap on Economics 101. I don't understand how EA is actually a somewhat successful cooperation with loonies like him involved.

Have you checked out EA's stock price recently.....

-Polaris

Yes UP 1.04% on the year, UP .16 yesterday,  and your point was? That's right nothing.  This upheaval about the ending is not some amazing disaster to the stock price. Don't try to usurp credit for things 'the movement" has not accomplished. Is it ego gratification people want  thinking they have a huge impact and puffing their chest?

HTL has gotten tangible results and I look forward to the EC because of that. Claiming anything else is silly. Ironic that many of you (HTlers) reject it.

[StElmo]

I am getting bad vibes from this video. ):

Hmm...

[B33ker]

To be honest, if you have to explain your ending to the majority of your playerbase, that says more about you being a ****ty writer than your players being stupid or slow.

I think DA3 tanking in sales will really show how much faith people have lost in BW now that EA has their claws in there.  I don't know of anyone personally who plans to buy anything else by BW at this point, and while that may not be 1000's of people, it's enough to spread the word that BW can't be trusted anymore.

BW has treated us like idiots from the start, and now they're going to be all nice and "explain" the endings because apparently we're too stupid to understand their "vision".

Insulted doesn't even come close to what I feel about BW atm.

[IanPolaris]

InvincibleHero wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

flub3 wrote...

This is how companies start to go under. Pride always accompanies the fall. He is literally taking a crap on Economics 101. I don't understand how EA is actually a somewhat successful cooperation with loonies like him involved.

Have you checked out EA's stock price recently.....

-Polaris

Yes UP 1.04% on the year, UP .16 yesterday,  and your point was? That's right nothing.  This upheaval about the ending is not some amazing disaster to the stock price. Don't try to usurp credit for things 'the movement" has not accomplished. Is it ego gratification people want  thinking they have a huge impact and puffing their chest?

HTL has gotten tangible results and I look forward to the EC because of that. Claiming anything else is silly. Ironic that many of you (HTlers) reject it.

UP from RECORD LOWS at the start of the year.  EA has gone from a blue chip stock to nearly a penny stock in less than a couple of years.  This is NOT the pattern of a company that is doing well.  I am going to ignore your insults and note that I said nothing about ME3 directly affecting the stock price, but the performance in recent years (along with the golden poo) does suggest a business that isn't doing so well right now.

-Polaris

[Torrible]

IanPolaris wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

flub3 wrote...

This is how companies start to go under. Pride always accompanies the fall. He is literally taking a crap on Economics 101. I don't understand how EA is actually a somewhat successful cooperation with loonies like him involved.

Have you checked out EA's stock price recently.....

-Polaris

Yes UP 1.04% on the year, UP .16 yesterday,  and your point was? That's right nothing.  This upheaval about the ending is not some amazing disaster to the stock price. Don't try to usurp credit for things 'the movement" has not accomplished. Is it ego gratification people want  thinking they have a huge impact and puffing their chest?

HTL has gotten tangible results and I look forward to the EC because of that. Claiming anything else is silly. Ironic that many of you (HTlers) reject it.

UP from RECORD LOWS at the start of the year.  EA has gone from a blue chip stock to nearly a penny stock in less than a couple of years.  This is NOT the pattern of a company that is doing well.  I am going to ignore your insults and note that I said nothing about ME3 directly affecting the stock price, but the performance in recent years (along with the golden poo) does suggest a business that isn't doing so well right now.

-Polaris

Their stocks went from $52 to a low of $15 within a period of 6 months in 2008. Want to make an educated guess as to why? From 2008 to 2012, the price flutuated between $15 and $25 (being closer to $15 more than 50% of the time during that period). Prices are a stable low (in that period) rather than a one-way inexorable slide.

Modifié par Torrible, 02 mai 2012 - 06:13 .

[EnvyTB075]

So then...i went through English classes for nothing, because i can't have an opinion on any literature because i'm not a writer.

There goes the last 6 years of my life.

tl;dr: this guys an ass.