324 réponses à ce sujet

[EricHVela]

John Epler wrote...

If I feel a thread needs locking, it will get locked. I am not leaving threads open because I'm worried about the backlash - moderating is rarely a popular task, something I'm already well aware of.

PS. I like this guy. Click the Bioware icon under the thread title in the forum list to see why.

[Cyne]

He thinks fans' opinions are less important than fellow developers... OK. I don't agree with him, but he's entitled to his opinion. I think he's prematurely dismissing what could be useful information though. Sometimes people outside of your usual circle can see things you cannot.

[AlexMBrennan]

Thanks for the TL;DW because the guy's contrived jokes at the start are literally unwatchable.

[Icinix]

Cyne wrote...

He thinks fans' opinions are less important than fellow developers... OK. I don't agree with him, but he's entitled to his opinion. I think he's prematurely dismissing what could be useful information though. Sometimes people outside of your usual circle can see things you cannot.

Also you should never discount the opinion of those who buy your product either.

I've worked retail for many, many years - and yes, sometimes the customer does and says dumb things and totally ruin your day. But if scores of them are telling you that something about you or your product stinks - you better damn well listen because if you don't, one day you won't have any customers left.

If scores are telling you something you have or are doing is good, then you keep doing it or stocking it because they'll keep coming back.

Regardless, I still think he was drinking the hand sanitizer before the show to see what it was like.

[Ahms]

Richard 060 wrote...

Watched it - wow. That one statement, that only a fellow game-maker's opinion is valid, is the height of arrogance, and totally unhealthy for any creative or 'artist' to have as an attitude.


Let me demonstrate with an analogy - bear with me:


Now, I'm a musician - concert instrumentalist, recording/international touring artist, composer, etc. Not trying to brag, but just trying to demonstrate that I've got a heck of a lot of experience and training under my belt, so it's a valid comparison to the situation with EA/BioWare.

I know for a fact that 99.9999% of audience-goers that come to my concerts know either nothing about music, or have a decent appreciation for music and a layman's grasp of musical concepts, but aren't 'musicians' per se.

So, it's a fair bet that I know more about the music I'm making than any of the people in the audience.

Does that mean that their opinions on 'my art' aren't valid, simply they aren't 'part of the profession'?


**** NO.


Oh, sure, sometimes I've had criticism that can easily be deflected because they simply didn't understand something. And there's no accounting for personal taste.

But occasionally, I get feedback from 'mere civilians' (going by Barnett's apparent attitude) that is actually valid - either from people who understand music to give me something properly constructive, or just the general feeling from audience members, which is enough to tell me whether I'm successful in connecting with them or not, even on a subconscious level.

Sometimes, just being aware that what I'm doing is either really resonating with people, or conversely, not working for them, is enough to tell me what I need to work on in future - because artists can never let themselves get complacent or stagnant.

Gauge your audience's mood, and respond accordingly - sticking to your 'artistic integrity' is all well and good, but not at the cost of communicating your ideas to people who AREN'T industry professionals, and might NOT totally understand what goes into the creative process.


And even if you completely disagree with the criticism of people who you believe don't have the knowledge that you do, it's (as I said to begin with) the height of arrogance to dismiss it in a totally cavalier way. At least give your fans, your audience, the common courtesy of listening to them, and explaining yourself where necessary, rather than just shutting them out.


Because at the end of the day, they support you, they provide custom, they'll even herald you from the battlements if you're successful and popular enough. An artist is NOTHING without his/her/their audience, and the day a creative forgets that, they're doomed to make art that just might fail to connect to people - which IMO, means it isn't art anymore.

Arguments from authority rarely work. This happens to be one of those times where it's actually quite strong.

[xSTONEYx187x]

bleetman wrote...

Guys, guys.

If you don't want me to buy your games anymore, just say so. It'll save us both a lot of time.

BioWare have went from an awesome, consumer friendly company to one that reeks of smugness and pretentiousness. 

Really getting on my nerves. 

[Aurica]

Hmm... why am I buying their products if they calling me an imbecile...
I think I'm not going to patronize EA ever again and I'm going to tell all my friends not to as well.

Modifié par Aurica, 02 mai 2012 - 02:13 .

[Mria]

 Id wish some 1 could explain me what we said about their customer`s, about us, cause althought i understand english i still have a bit of trouble to understand bull****...

but seriously if u some 1 could post here what he said about their customers i would appriciate.

[royceclemens]

xSTONEYx187x wrote...

BioWare have went from an awesome, consumer friendly company to one that reeks of smugness and pretentiousness. 

Really getting on my nerves. 

Tell me about it.  It seems every day I want to take all three of these damn games down to the store three blocks down and trade them in for something else when someone affiliated with BioWare says or does something completely tone-deaf.  And I have to clear my head, close my eyes and count to ten in order to stop myself.

I mean I'm a gamer to begin with, so already I don't have a wealth of dignity, but even THAT is vanishing incrementally as the clock keeps ticking.

I may not know much, but I know that the relationship between developer and fan isn't supposed to work this way.

[Bob3terd]

"Its like learning to drive" if you drive a car into my house and i cant drive, am i not allowed to call you a bad driver?
Just because i cant do somthing does not make you good at it. /thread

[The Angry One]

Cyne wrote...

He thinks fans' opinions are less important than fellow developers... OK. I don't agree with him, but he's entitled to his opinion. I think he's prematurely dismissing what could be useful information though. Sometimes people outside of your usual circle can see things you cannot.

It's not the kind of opinion I want from anybody making a game I buy.
It does neatly explain why Warhammer Online was driven into the ground the way it was.

[gmdinmd]

Response to the video and not the responses, but .. wow. This guy ... wow.

2 main issues right off the bat. He says you can't complain to him and he will not consider your point valid unless you are his peer .. ignoring bluster, his main argument here is that you need a certain perspective, 'to cross a line' in his words, to have a valid experience base to be significant.

He uses two comparisons. War and Parenthood. Let's tackle parenthood first. So people without babies don't get what its like to be a parent? Yes this is true. However, the criticism he is claming is invalid, that of a game product really in this case he is likening to that of the game development process and lifestyle features of working in gaming. Two have nothing to do with each other. I work in IT and the hours suck ... what no one else on earth has crappy hours? Now if I fail at parenting and am given criticism by the school or, god forbid, police is all that "feedback" invalid since it might be offered by a 25 year old person who's only ever seen kids and not been a parent? Hardly.

Second one .. war. Being a soldier. You know what, he's right, most people will NEVER know how awful the reality of war is. It's awful and the people that survive it in any form are never the same. Comparing game development to being a soldier in any capacity is fundamentally idiotic. Saying I can't know what its like to be a game developer and therefor not having an opinion, to not being a soldier? Beyond words.

Wraps up like this. You sir, produce a consumer product that sells for ~$60 at gamestop. I buy said product, like I have bought, .. hundreds. And maybe, just maybe I like it enough to care enough to say something, good or bad. I meet you at a FAN event that your company says you should go to to INTERACT with fans. Your product, I felt could have been better.

Guess what? Your job is to listen to feedback.

Moral of story. If you don't like feedback, get the hell out of the creative industry, or, working in general.

*what your point should have been: The fanbase is so large and with the communication channels of today, (fan/gaming events, twitter, BSN, facebook, etc etc) and the wild variation in feedback from diffrent types of consumers that it is impossible, as a game developer, to carefully consider any and all feedback since most of it is personal preference and not relevant feedback. The feedback of peers is much more valuable in aiding the creative and development process.

This we get.... what was said? Yeah no ..  I swear there needs to be "not being a jackass 101" in schools these days.  Listenign to these comments from Bioware is like reading the comments on ESPN articles.

Modifié par gmdinmd, 02 mai 2012 - 03:38 .

[Barnaclebob]

John Epler wrote...

Skyline45 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

As with all BioWare staff, his opinion is his own.

I'm of the school of thought that 'if you consume a product, you are welcome to criticize and critique it'. That doesn't mean that, occasionally, you aren't going to necessarily understand something that's rather specialized - but why would you? It's not your job to know about things like production and resource costs. That's the job of the company - all you need to know is 'did I enjoy the product' and 'what parts of the game did I or did I not enjoy'.

If I dont know the details you describe then how can I make an informed purchase as a consumer?

Because the details that should inform your purchase aren't things like 'how many man hours is it going to take to implement this feature' or 'what's the cost of outsourcing X art asset versus doing it in-house', but rather 'does this feature do what I want' or 'is this content the sort of thing I'm going to enjoy?' That's what I mean when I talk about things that, as a ocnsumer, you won't necessarily understand.

Well that's your opinion. I'd like to know how much time you spent on Tali's photoshop job. How much time you spent on the Rachni story in ME3. Things like this do matter. No company's going to be that transparent though.

[nzag1971]

That guy is not very bright is he?

[jojon2se]

I can't help but to recall what people from another company often say that they are first and foremost looking for in prospective employees, in addition to first class competence, obviously:

1) Make a product and get it out to players - this shows that you are creative and have self reliant drive.
2) Then the most important bit: Iterate based on consumer feedback, account for the reasoning behind the decisions it leads you to and be prepared to backtrack on things that leaves the audience cold.

How perspectives vary...

[Mad-Max90]

i'll take a ban in saying this guy...well he ****ing sucks....warhammer sucks everything this guy has headed sucks...that might be why he is so damn pissy

[MetalCargo999]

You don't need to be a bird to say an elephant can't fly.

[tschamp]

So those "75 perfect scores" mean nothing because those people don't create game, they just review it. I guess that is something that should not be that important to Bioware/EA and shouldn't be touted as an achievement for ME 3. I guess the "EA Kool-Aid" was drunk heavy by this guy because only our money matters not our opinion.

P.S. Multi-player is obviously the most important thing now because it cost little to create DLC for it and constant source of revenue for them. I guess the idea of "Not everyone likes to play OMP " enter their mind because no one would thought making it necessary to play OMP to get the "Best Ending" (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA).

[robertm2]

tschamp wrote...

So those "75 perfect scores" mean nothing because those people don't create game, they just review it. I guess that is something that should not be that important to Bioware/EA and shouldn't be touted as an achievement for ME 3. I guess the "EA Kool-Aid" was drunk heavy by this guy because only our money matters not our opinion.

P.S. Multi-player is obviously the most important thing now because it cost little to create DLC for it and constant source of revenue for them. I guess the idea of "Not everyone likes to play OMP " enter their mind because no one would thought making it necessary to play OMP to get the "Best Ending" (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA).

thats a really good point. if our opinion doesnt matter then how is 75 perfect scores something they adverstise? just further proff that the ea marketing can do no wrong, and say no wrong at all times. when they want to be right and flaunt its the greatest thing in the world and when they get backlash its pointless and never mattered in the first place. after listening to this guy i seriously hope this gives bioware a wake up call as to where their company is headed. soon ea will alienate their fanbase and make the games they design as mainstream as possible. soon after when bioware titles are just another game on the shelf and nobody wants to buy them because someone else is doing what they use to do better ea will decide bioware is worthless to them. then they will fire everyone and liquidate the company and bioware will be nothing but a distant memory to gamers. they should do themselves a favor and start a new company while gamers still have some respect for them.

Modifié par robertm2, 02 mai 2012 - 11:56 .

[DOHC46]

ZombieChad wrote...

The quick jist, if you make games you have a valid opinon. If not get stuffed.

http://www.escapistm...BioWare-Keynote

He made me so angry just stating that 90% of the people at the convention scapled free tickets that I turned it off in under a minute.  What a jackass...

Modifié par DOHC46, 03 mai 2012 - 12:18 .

[Torxen]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

You don't need to be a bird to say an elephant can't fly.

This.

[Varus Praetor]

Lol. Seriously BW, you need to have mandatory training for all your employees on how to NOT say idiotic things that ****** off your consumers. If everyone at BW has an attitude like this guy, then you're company won't be making games for very long.

I'm a mechanical engineer and I design lubrication systems for diesel engines. If one of my companies customers calls me and says "your engine's power density is too low," I don't tell him, "I don't care. You can't tell me about my engine's design until you've created and sold diesel engines yourself. You see, you haven't crossed the imaginary line where your opinion matters." Even if I disagree because increasing power or reducing weight isn't cost effective, I sure as hell don't go out in public and say that every customer's opinion regarding my product is utter crap.

But then again my company's profits increased by 45% year over year in 2011 with sales at $60 billion. I'm sure BW's strategy is much better long term.

[Icinix]

John Epler wrote...

Skyline45 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

As with all BioWare staff, his opinion is his own.

I'm of the school of thought that 'if you consume a product, you are welcome to criticize and critique it'. That doesn't mean that, occasionally, you aren't going to necessarily understand something that's rather specialized - but why would you? It's not your job to know about things like production and resource costs. That's the job of the company - all you need to know is 'did I enjoy the product' and 'what parts of the game did I or did I not enjoy'.

If I dont know the details you describe then how can I make an informed purchase as a consumer?

Because the details that should inform your purchase aren't things like 'how many man hours is it going to take to implement this feature' or 'what's the cost of outsourcing X art asset versus doing it in-house', but rather 'does this feature do what I want' or 'is this content the sort of thing I'm going to enjoy?' That's what I mean when I talk about things that, as a ocnsumer, you won't necessarily understand.

In todays day and age though, people want to support companies whose interests might be in line with what the consumer believes.
Wether the company has certain green policies, wether they hire locally or outsource international are two huge ones that becoming applicable to lots of different consumer products. In the games industry, I don't see why there can't be some level of transparency with a companies time lines and goals with products.

E.g Does Game X have a goal of setting a new standard in area of Gameplay X - or does the game have a goal of achieving a critical metacritic rating of X 3 months after sales.  That kind of information would / does affect my purchasing decisions and company support. I want to know the games I buy and the companies I support are in for more than just the dollars, but because they want to produce lasting games that mean something. The word of developers used to be enough, but in todays market of EA and Activision - developers are usually laughed at for saying such.

I don't think total transparency in all facets should be out there, but I think some information regarding this is something that could and probably should be used in the future. Particularly with the way brand loyalty and trust is being shattered at the moment.

[Rjames112]

Perhaps he is lashing out emotionally? I certainly would understand that since most of what has been on these boards has been belligerent emotional reactions to a consumer product.

I don't agree that the work is beyond criticism, but constructive criticism is different from saying "the endings suck, Bioware failed" and then insult their work. If you don't like it most have mentioned it one time or another: don't buy the games, vote with you dollars as the saying goes. But don't pretend that after months of harsh criticisms and insults you wouldn't be feeling perhaps a little sensitive.

[Relshar]

This is the same guy who was lead designer for Warhammer Online. And
look how that was a huge succsess. Or not. ME3 was has bad endings no
amount of talking down to their customers is going to change that. And
yeh this guy is a wazzock.

You put "art" out onto the market people are going to say something about it. If they don't like it deal with it dont go on a rant about how thier opinions mean nothing because they have not created anything.

Modifié par Relshar, 05 mai 2012 - 11:30 .