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[Taboo]

 I thought it might be nice for once to.....divert my match throwing at this time to focus on something quite a few people have been asking me to do. My message box has been flooded with support and requests for the following in some capacity. I'll be giving on what a bittersweet ending is to me and that includes blue babies..........for some of us.

My favorite people to work with in my job are the happiest ones. The ones that look for hapiness in everything. They are the ones I most enjoy talking to on a set and the ones I enjoy having dinner with afterwords. These are the people that make me come back to the BSN everyday, the people who in the face of everything that has happened still offer a glimpse of hope, something that I don't see in the pit we have right now.

When I think back to relationships that I have had (romantic or otherwise ) I  always enjoy seeing another person change and morph into something entirely different to my initial perception of them. One of the gret strengths of Mass Effect to me was the ability to see how Shepard affected his LI. Now some people really  like these characters (sometimes I wonder about some of them.......) and have always perceived some sort of resolution to the story arc. What I did not see in the end of my playthrough was a resolution on much of anything but the more I thought about it I had no resolution my Shepard's LI either. There wasn't anything in the end there was just a pit.

A bittersweet ending to me would be one where Shepard survives, and reunites with the person he cares about most and then proceeds to help rebuild. Billions of people are dead. Thousands more will be and in the end the galaxy is essentially left in a state of ruin. I see no reason for every outcome to result in some sort of suicide on Shepard's part or in best case scenario a four second scene of him breathing in the rubble. Reflections upon major themes is a key component in art and I don't see any reflection upon much of anything right now.

This  is literally the last thing I ever see of Miranda and the last thing that is ever done about her relationship with Shepard. She wants to tell Shepard something at the very end, something she hasn't before and she can't bring herself to do it..........yet. At what point did Bioware think I wouldn't want to see a resolution to this? It just defies logic.

I'll leave you with a quote, one from a man I deeply respect.

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is only bearable through love" - Carl Sagan

[Stygian1]

I agree entirely. Apparently BioWare forgot the main reason people loved mass effect was because of its realistic characters, your relationships with them, and their continual development throughout the series. It seems they decided this wasn't an important thing to us in the end, and that what would really make their fans happy would be to just make an ending entirely devoid of those characters, you relationships with hem, and that is solely based on abstract concepts injected into the series minutes before its end. That's what normal people want, pessimistic endings and absolutely no closure.

Good job BioWare, you can read your fans like a book.

[MattFini]

Well said.

I think this is certainly part of why the ending doesn't work.

Personally speaking, I don't HAVE to be reunited with my LI. If BioWare wants Shep to die in every outcome (which, for the record, I think is stupid) I would like to see how my LI reacts to his death.

I might've been happy if a weeping Jack found my corpse beneath the rubble after the Destroy option, for example. Sure it would've been depressing but it would've given that story arc some closure. Then the game could've gone on to show HOW the galaxy benefitted from everything I'd done over the game.

No, I wouldn't have liked the StarChild at all, and it'd still have tons of issues with the lazy way he and his choices are executed, but this kind of variety in the ending would've at least made me want to replay all my Sheps.

Then again, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to have a happy ending with Jack either. I'm just not sure why BioWare felt this wouldn't bother anyone.

[Kalundume]

Yes, that is very important: Bioware's games were always more about their characters than about their storylines. People played Fallout or Planescape for storyline, they played BG2 for their party and non party NPCs... now ME series developped a very strong cast of characters, and in the mess of ME3 they seem to be completely forgotten in the end.

[eddieoctane]

I've always had a lot of respect for Sagan. I have 0 for Casey anymore. Blowing up everything, probably condemning the hero's friends to death, and forcing a suicide on the player aren't bittersweet, they're Pyrrhic. There's no victory, just the illusion that the Reapers were stopped (and even them, temporarily).

I'm not sure which I find more insulting: the implication made by the "art defense" that I simply can't grasp the "beauty of the ending" or that the writers didn't think the fans were smart enough to take the various plot-lines to their logical conclusion and make the ending appear for more bleak than they intended.

[MattFini]

Kalundume wrote...

Yes, that is very important: Bioware's games were always more about their characters than about their storylines. People played Fallout or Planescape for storyline, they played BG2 for their party and non party NPCs... now ME series developped a very strong cast of characters, and in the mess of ME3 they seem to be completely forgotten in the end.

That's why I personally prefer ME2 to the rest of the series.  Yes, the overall story isn't expanded very much, but it's a darker, more character-driven experience.  By the time the suicide run commenced, I was completely invested in getting each and every one of them through it alive.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

The treatments of certain continued LIs in ME3 were terrible. Miranda's was especially embarrassingly bad. If I had manced Miranda in ME2, I would be pissed. I really liked her character, thought there was much more to develop there, especially when you consider the rather large role Cerberus played in the game. I really don't get why BW decided to relegate her cameo status. It's such a missed opportunity.

[pistolols]

Control ending technically isn't a suicide if you consider Shepard now exists as the citadel.

[MattFini]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The treatments of certain continued LIs in ME3 were terrible. Miranda's was especially embarrassingly bad. If I had manced Miranda in ME2, I would be pissed. I really liked her character, thought there was much more to develop there, especially when you consider the rather large role Cerberus played in the game. I really don't get why BW decided to relegate her cameo status. It's such a missed opportunity.

Miranda and Jack got shafted.  I mean, I know Jack's romance was bad, and I've heard Miranda's was as well (although slightly better, from what I hear).

But I'm really surprised they got left out of the main storyline.  Both of them have different associations with Cerberus, and their involvement in actively stopping them at every turn would've been interesting. 

What would it mean for Miranda to see what vile monsters Cerberus had become, for example.

I think there was so much missed potential to have the two of them as squadmates, not only because it would've actually served the story, but also 'cause their bickering/banter would've been delightful.  

[frylock23]

People form emotional connections at the individual and personal level more than they do at the level of the abstract. Yes, people care about the galaxy and the quarians and the geth and turians and so on and so forth, but they care far more about those individual representatives of those races we were given to interact with in the form of Tali and Garrus and Legion, etc. In that sense our crew and our LIs were a stand-in for the galaxy at large when it came to the endings and when we were given no closure on any level, but especially on that more intimate, personal level, it left me (and I'm guessing from the reaction) a lot of people really upset.

They needed to satisfy that emotional attachment to the personal more than they needed to satisfy the larger, more abstract commitments and they addressed neither. Then they dropped in that nonsensical Normandy scene in, and if you had an ME1 LI (or Garrus or Tali), it was really sort of rubbing salt in the wound or the no closure issue.

[ShepnTali]

pistolols wrote...

Control ending technically isn't a suicide if you consider Shepard now exists as the citadel.

True, though Id personally rather be dead

[pistolols]

ShepnTali wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Control ending technically isn't a suicide if you consider Shepard now exists as the citadel.

True, though Id personally rather be dead

i don't know, i think it's cool.  Kinda like becoming the sandworm in Dune.

[Taboo]

It doesn't make any sense. I'm so awestruck at this mistake. Did they think I would forget the characters?

Really?

[ShepnTali]

MattFini wrote...

Kalundume wrote...

Yes, that is very important: Bioware's games were always more about their characters than about their storylines. People played Fallout or Planescape for storyline, they played BG2 for their party and non party NPCs... now ME series developped a very strong cast of characters, and in the mess of ME3 they seem to be completely forgotten in the end.

That's why I personally prefer ME2 to the rest of the series.  Yes, the overall story isn't expanded very much, but it's a darker, more character-driven experience.  By the time the suicide run commenced, I was completely invested in getting each and every one of them through it alive.

And this is why ME2 is the most replayable for me. I like the more, for lack of a better word, intimate time wehave with the characters in the loyalty missions, the overall bonding of these wildly different people, and an actual sense of earned accomplishment in the end.

[Taboo]

ShepnTali wrote...

MattFini wrote...

Kalundume wrote...

Yes, that is very important: Bioware's games were always more about their characters than about their storylines. People played Fallout or Planescape for storyline, they played BG2 for their party and non party NPCs... now ME series developped a very strong cast of characters, and in the mess of ME3 they seem to be completely forgotten in the end.

That's why I personally prefer ME2 to the rest of the series.  Yes, the overall story isn't expanded very much, but it's a darker, more character-driven experience.  By the time the suicide run commenced, I was completely invested in getting each and every one of them through it alive.

And this is why ME2 is the most replayable for me. I like the more, for lack of a better word, intimate time wehave with the characters in the loyalty missions, the overall bonding of these wildly different people, and an actual sense of earned accomplishment in the end.

Yes, because the characters actually meant something to the audience. How........how could they forget this?

Did they believe I would be so awestuck by their ending I would forget about Miranda? Garrus?

Sigh.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 mai 2012 - 04:33 .

[nitefyre410]

This is what was truly lost in the Mass Effect 3 endings.. Shepard in either ME 1 or ME 2 did anything with out The Team. It was always about Shepard and the team, at the end of ME 3 they just cut all that out for just Shepard. Bioware you missed the point and you created the point how they hell does that work.

Whats more insulting is that they have the nerve to peddle this nonsense as a bittersweet ending and its nowhere near close.

[StrelokCH]

As I said in you last thread, I would be ok with everyone of Shep's friends dying, if it would be lodical. If everyone has to die in order to stop the Reapers, I will do it, but I have to know how and why. If the Normandy just magically goes to some relay and ends up on an uncahrted planet, can't you at least tell me why they left and why my squad from Earth is there too?

If the whole thing isn't explained, I want Single Shep to go drinking and whoring with his dude-bro James at the end of the war.

[Superstarsage]

Oh god Garrus, you sweet lovable mandible you. Sniff. Had to bring him into this didn't you.

You've already read my opinion on the blasted subject taboo. I still enjoy playing ME2, halfway through a 6th play (gotta romance dat garrus… again) then I'll move onto a garrus ME3 play through and see how that goes.

But overall, it.... it's silly because it almost makes me feel like Ereba from the citadel got a more complete LI (her love interest anyways) story completion than Shepard did.

[frylock23]

You know it's funny, but I've told my husband more than once that every character in ME3 who dies - Thane, Mordin, Legion - had a more emotionally meaningful and fulfilling death than our own main character gets at the end. AND those characters get much more closure, too. We even get more resolution for the VS who gets a covo from Garrus who stands at the Memorial Wall on the Normandy and Shep references him/her in a cutscene after a dream sequence. By contrast, after our own Shepard makes what we would assume to be the ultimate sacrifice for the entire galaxy ... we get ... squat.

We get upstaged by a pack of NPCs. Our own ending should have delivered on at least the same emotional tone with the same amount of impact, and it quite soundly failed. Then, there was absolutely no resolution of any kind to go along with the complete lack of emotional meaning. It was a dual failure.

[GreyLycanTrope]

pistolols wrote...

Control ending technically isn't a suicide if you consider Shepard now exists as the citadel.

So Miranda is now dating the Citadel?

[Wulfram]

I don't really agree. Shepard dieing, LI living fits with a bittersweet ending for me. Sacrifice is part of the deal Shepard signed on for.

LI shouldn't be stuck on bloody stupid planet for no reason, of course. And it should be a heroic sacrifice, not one which makes you think they've just committed a horrible atrocity. But Shep dieing isn't one of my problems with the ending.

[Victia]

well said Taboo (as always :-D) the characters seemed forgotten in the ending and this was most frustrating with the LI's (I was lucky really, my only playthroughs have been with my Kaidan romance shep and at least he was on the crew and said goodbye) it especially showed with the ME2 LI's who where barely in the game.

The way you describe a bittersweet ending is exactly how i imagined it playing out (in some endings), yes i think we where ment to be so in awe of Caseys vision for the ending that all though rational thought left us and we where jibbering about how deep he is and really have nothing to add or disagree with,

[CmnDwnWrkn]

MattFini wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The treatments of certain continued LIs in ME3 were terrible. Miranda's was especially embarrassingly bad. If I had manced Miranda in ME2, I would be pissed. I really liked her character, thought there was much more to develop there, especially when you consider the rather large role Cerberus played in the game. I really don't get why BW decided to relegate her cameo status. It's such a missed opportunity.

Miranda and Jack got shafted.  I mean, I know Jack's romance was bad, and I've heard Miranda's was as well (although slightly better, from what I hear).

But I'm really surprised they got left out of the main storyline.  Both of them have different associations with Cerberus, and their involvement in actively stopping them at every turn would've been interesting. 

What would it mean for Miranda to see what vile monsters Cerberus had become, for example.

I think there was so much missed potential to have the two of them as squadmates, not only because it would've actually served the story, but also 'cause their bickering/banter would've been delightful.  

Exactly!  I loved all of Jack's dialog and the mission at the academy.  As soon as I saw her get folded into the War Assets, my reaction was, "No! Wait! What??!?"  There was so much more there.  And I didn't even consider the possibility that you mentioned - further development of the Jack/Miranda relationship.  That could have been incredible.  I see more and more missed opportunities everyday.

[Klijpope]

Yeah, this is my main problem with the ending. Tis that closure thing...

But, I don't think it was realistic to expect the same treatment for every previous squad member - there was just too many of them (and remember, people complained about the too large squad in ME2 - so BW cut it down for 3).

However, and if my wild assumption turns out to have any relationship with what they are planning it could be another controversy - given that we always knew there would be DLC (we like LotSB!), and now we know that all the DLC will take place before the Cerberus base mission, then it follows that all DLC will either tie in to the war effort or to our squaddies or both.

I could see Zaeed turning up in the Omega DLC for instance. I could envisage a Crucible DLC (foil a Cerberus attack?) that could involve Kasumi and Jacob and even the rachni. A Miranda focused DLC is not outside the realms of imagination, either, given how vague she is about her agenda. Problem is now, after the ending scandal, would the 'fans' take things like this at face value, or would it just encourage more conspiracy theories?

[The Night Mammoth]

Mass Effect has never really had a terribly good overall story. In it's most basic terms, sure, it sounds pretty interesting, but in reality it's never been great.

BioWare excel at characterization. Why do I think ME2 has the best story? Derp, it's because of the characters. There are heaps, each is interesting in their own way, and the great think about that game in particular was that you could ignore characters you disliked (in my case Jack), and cultivate a more meaningful relationship with those that you did (Garrus, Thane, everyone else except Jack, really).

Now, Mass Effect 3 did a half decent job with a lot of characters by weaving them into the overall narrative. Basically, I'm talking about Tuchanka and Rannoch. With the former, you had Mordin/Wiks, Wrex/Wreave, and Bakara, and with the former it was Tali, Legion (or his stand in), and the Admirals.

Every other character felt left out except Liara, EDI, Miranda (kind of) and at least partly the Virmire Survivor, during the story. A few missions here and there caused pretty much the entire cast of the last game besides Shepard to be reduced to a cameo. Part of that is a lack of squadmates, another being partly due to a lack of any character-centric 'loyalty' missions, and another part being amuch higher concentration on the over-arching plot rather than the specific parts of it.

That last part is especially prevalent in the ending. Yes, I'm going there again. BioWare took their eye off the ball, as it were. It seems they decided not to concentrate on saving this cycle, these species, and these characters, and turned Shepard's conflict into a fight for the entirety of organic existence with some bull**** ass-pull plot change - the Catalyst's problem.

Now, I don't know about you, but playing as a Paragon Shepard who romanced Liara, arguably the character with the most screen-time besides the Commander herself, this battle was not a simple fight for survival, to end the Reapers cycle of destruction. It was a fight to save Shepard's friends, to save this incarnation of advanced life. Shepard would not do that by sacrificing everything that made them fight in the first place, she says as much a few times. Something along the lines of "and I'll do it without sacrificing the soul of our species", to the Illusive Man, probably at the end of ME2 after you destroy the Collector Base. 

You could argue that every choice you make could have that motivation, but I'm sorry, Shepard would not, WOULD NOT, choose any of these options. They all have you commit some sort of attrocity, or have you basically agree with the villain whom you potentially just convinced to shoot himself, since he was F*CKING INDOCTRINATED. 

TL;DR - If BioWare wanted this to be a grand and epic struggle for the existence of life itself then they shouldn't have concentrated on such a wide range of characters, factions, and allies, with so much death. They shouldn't have created the Mass Effect universe with the amount of detail and care that they did.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 01 mai 2012 - 05:28 .