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Tangled up in Blue (Babies) What's a bittersweet ending?


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#26
Devil Mingy

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Very well said, Taboo.

Mordin agrees

Sorry, Casey, but your idea as presented isn't sufficient enough for me to completely disregard my emotional attachment to the characters and replace it with an emotional attachment to the abstract concept of "life".

However, I can fully understand why my opinion would take them completely by surprise. After all, I don't know a single person who played Mass Effect 2 for its engaging characters. Nah, we all really played to find out the mysterious nature of the Collectors and to save a few hundred thousand anonymous colonists. :wizard:

Modifié par Devil Mingy, 01 mai 2012 - 05:27 .


#27
Kalundume

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Klijpope wrote...

Problem is now, after the ending scandal, would the 'fans' take things like this at face value, or would it just encourage more conspiracy theories?


It is Bioware that opened Pandora's box by asking for "Speculation for everyone" ...

#28
a.m.p

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So very true, OP.
You don't need additional semi-philosophic symbolism to make the end of a great war profound and meaningful. It already is.
You don't need to obliterate civilization to evoke a sense of sadness.
You don't need people on a hostile uninhabited planet to show a new start.

Modifié par a.m.p, 01 mai 2012 - 05:45 .


#29
Makrys

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Well put, Taboo. You pretty much nailed it on the head how I feel. I felt like the romances were decent in this game, but still left SO much to be desired. So many knots were left untied. Your point about Miranda is spot on. Though I didn't romance her, I feel for those who did and the pathetic attempt at 'closure' they got. Saying goodbye to my romance via hologram is not my idea of closure to the romance.

Overall, I was generally happy with Liara's romance. But the end felt... really wrong. She said goodbye, but Shepard didn't even hardly say a word. I felt like, 'wtf?'. It was like he was completely silent and wasn't even thinking about her. Really? I'm about to go destroy the Reapers and possibly die in the process, yet during my last moments with you I'm not going to hold you close, kiss, and tell you how much you mean to me? Nah, I'll just share this dream moment with you and then be on my way. That part really made no sense to me and kind of pissed me off. Liara says, "I love you", and Shepard doesn't even respond. Wow.

I just feel like Bioware could have done a much better job fleshing out the romances and providing better closure towards the end for ALL characters. I really hope we get a DLC at some point in time that lets us continue our romance with our LI, but also maybe a patch here and there to fix some of the weird dialogue. If Liara and I are together, she shouldn't constantly be reffering to me as a 'friend' just because I hadn't 'reestablished' the relationship on the Citadel yet. I reestablished it at the beginning of the game when I first entered her chambers! She asked me about our relationship then and I told her I still wanted to make us work! So... why do I have to do it again later? Lame. And pathetic story telling in my mind.

#30
The Night Mammoth

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a.m.p wrote...
You don't need to obliterate civilization to evoke a sense of sadness.


I already felt sad after talking to Primarch Victus, when he stands on Menae with Palaven before him, and when he loses his son. I already felt sad after talking a little to Liara about Thessia, and her childhood. I already felt sad after Joker tells me about his father and sister, and then their likely fate is revealed. I already felt sad after seeing Mordin die to correct his mistake, Thane say a prayer for Shepard, and Legion sacrifice himself to free his people. I already felt sad after finding out Anderson was born in London. 

Okay, that last one was a joke, but seriously, BioWare didn't have to make me feel any more sad than I already did for what the war had caused, they did it through the characters half a dozen times. What were they thinking? Morons. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 01 mai 2012 - 05:55 .


#31
Makrys

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

a.m.p wrote...
You don't need to obliterate civilization to evoke a sense of sadness.


I already felt sad after talking to Primarch Victus, when he stands on Menae with Palaven before him, and when he loses his son. I already felt sad after talking a little to Liara about Thessia, and her childhood. I already felt sad after Joker tells me about his father and sister, and then their likely fate is revealed. I already felt sad after seeing Mordin die to correct his mistake, Thane say a prayer for Shepard, and Legion sacrifice himself to free his people.I already felt sad after finding out Anderson was born in London. 

Okay, that last one was a joke, but seriously, BioWare didn't have to make me feell any more sad than I already did for what the war had caused, they did it through the characters half a dozen times. What were they thinking? Morons. 


They were thinking about your sig, I'm sure.

Agreed.

#32
Kunari801

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Taboo-XX wrote...

... One of the gret strengths of Mass Effect to me was the ability to see how Shepard affected his LI. Now some people really  like these characters (sometimes I wonder about some of them.......) and have always perceived some sort of resolution to the story arc. What I did not see in the end of my playthrough was a resolution on much of anything but the more I thought about it I had no resolution my Shepard's LI either. There wasn't anything in the end there was just a pit.

A bittersweet ending to me would be one where Shepard survives, and reunites with the person he cares about most and then proceeds to help rebuild. Billions of people are dead. Thousands more will be and in the end the galaxy is essentially left in a state of ruin. I see no reason for every outcome to result in some sort of suicide on Shepard's part or in best case scenario a four second scene of him breathing in the rubble. Reflections upon major themes is a key component in art and I don't see any reflection upon much of anything right now.

Having Normandy crash on that jungle plant (I assume) was supposed to give me a "hopeful" feeling for their survival and future but what I got from it was "WTF?!  How did they?! Why did they?!"  It didn't give me hope, it made me confused, angry, and awestruck that my crew would abandon Shepard. 

I wanted to know the fate of all my crew not just my LI.   I wanted to adopt blue babies from Liara and retire with my LI but --as I said before-- I expected my Shepard would die at the end of ME3 but I fully support endings that can lead to a reunion with our LI and crew members. 

ME3 was going to be bitter-sweet enough just by the fact that this is the last game of Shepard and crew.  This is it guys, this is the last adventure we get with our Shepard, Liara, Garrus, etc.   I didn't expect it to be the death of the ME universe.  

#33
Taboo

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All I have know is hope. Hope that Bioware will let this happen. In four or five months I just want emotional closure for Shepard......

Make it happen for God's sake.

#34
Grimwick

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100% agree OP! And with your last comment ^

#35
wickedgoodreed

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This is one area that I'm cautiously optimistic the EC may be able to address satisfactorily. For whatever reason, Bioware devs have said that they didn't realize there was a demand for closure. But they do realize now, so here's to hope.

#36
Kunari801

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Taboo-XX wrote...

All I have know is hope. Hope that Bioware will let this happen. In four or five months I just want emotional closure for Shepard......

Make it happen for God's sake.


I support this thread of yours but it just ripped the scab off this festering wound.   :crying:

#37
Makrys

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Taboo-XX wrote...

All I have know is hope. Hope that Bioware will let this happen. In four or five months I just want emotional closure for Shepard......

Make it happen for God's sake.


I hold out hope as well. I still have faith in Bioware, faith that somehow maybe they couldn't finish the ending in time and therefore left it as DLC to finish later and release for free. There is so much more evidence throughout the game of it being rushed, so I don't think it would be a stretch to think this. Also, its hard for me to buy all of the supposed lies pre release. I just hope that those things they promised are going to come true, but just haven't yet. And they better have a damn good reason why the ending was the way it was. Either they couldn't finish it in time, they were leaving it open for a twist (IT), or some other reason. But they better have a damn good reason why we got the crap that we got as the ending.

#38
Makrys

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wickedgoodreed wrote...

This is one area that I'm cautiously optimistic the EC may be able to address satisfactorily. For whatever reason, Bioware devs have said that they didn't realize there was a demand for closure. But they do realize now, so here's to hope.


I don't buy that. That is such s***. You're telling me that we would invest in these LI and romances throughout 3 games and then NOT expect closure in the end? Well, I guess you do have your head in your arse then. Seriously, no one at Bioware could possibly think with that logic. That would be just pathetic.

(btw, 'you' was speaking of bioware, not you, wicked. So no offense, not angry at you)

Modifié par Makrys, 01 mai 2012 - 06:14 .


#39
Taboo

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Hmmmmm. New campaign? With blue babies on them? Along with the Carl Sagan quote?

#40
Kunari801

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Makrys wrote...

wickedgoodreed wrote...

This is one area that I'm cautiously optimistic the EC may be able to address satisfactorily. For whatever reason, Bioware devs have said that they didn't realize there was a demand for closure. But they do realize now, so here's to hope.


I don't buy that. That is such s***. You're telling me that we would invest in these LI and romances throughout 3 games and then NOT expect closure in the end? Well, I guess you do have your head in your arse then. Seriously, no one at Bioware could possibly think with that logic. That would be just pathetic.

(btw, 'you' was speaking of bioware, not you, wicked. So no offense, not angry at you)


That was one of BW's comments about the ending backlash.  The ME series is pretty unique in that they made the companions around you so life-like that you actually to end up caring for them and even taking one as a LI.   

#41
Taboo

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Kunari801 wrote...

Makrys wrote...

wickedgoodreed wrote...

This is one area that I'm cautiously optimistic the EC may be able to address satisfactorily. For whatever reason, Bioware devs have said that they didn't realize there was a demand for closure. But they do realize now, so here's to hope.


I don't buy that. That is such s***. You're telling me that we would invest in these LI and romances throughout 3 games and then NOT expect closure in the end? Well, I guess you do have your head in your arse then. Seriously, no one at Bioware could possibly think with that logic. That would be just pathetic.

(btw, 'you' was speaking of bioware, not you, wicked. So no offense, not angry at you)


That was one of BW's comments about the ending backlash.  The ME series is pretty unique in that they made the companions around you so life-like that you actually to end up caring for them and even taking one as a LI.   



I hope a developer reads this thread. It would be so easy to shut people up.........

#42
Kunari801

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Taboo-XX wrote...

I hope a developer reads this thread. It would be so easy to shut people up.........


Emotional roller coaster today for me.  I watched the ME3 launch party interviews on YouTube today and it rekindled the sense of anticipation and optimism I used to find when thinking about Mass Effect.  To be sure the ME universe is not a utopian Star Trek type universe yet it was always one with hope for the future.   Then I think of the ending and the sense of loss returns reopening the wounds I thought were healing. 

Modifié par Kunari801, 01 mai 2012 - 06:46 .


#43
Thorn Harvestar

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The Normandy sequence/crash in the ending cinematic is probably what bothers me the most about the ending... No context, out of character, no resolution/closure...

I'm sorry, but I just find it mind boggling that you'd want to end a trilogy with "lots of speculation from everyone" with almost zero closure (granted, a lot of the zero-closure stems from the Relay destruction that most of us assumed to destroy a bulk of the galaxy, but is apparently being fixed in EC).

I have faith in what BW can do with EC, especially with their full writing team working on it together. But man. I respect Casey and Mac's work, and have enjoyed a lot of it, but the decisions on the end are just puzzling.

#44
Taboo

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Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I hope a developer reads this thread. It would be so easy to shut people up.........


Emotional roller coaster today for me.  I watched the ME3 launch party interviews on YouTube today and it rekindled the sense of anticipation and optimism I used to find when thinking about Mass Effect.  To be sure the ME universe it not a utopian Star Trek type universe yet it was always one with hope for the future.   Then I think of the ending and the sense of loss returns reopening the wounds I thought were healing. 


I wishe they would just understand that it just simply hurts. It's like a bad break-up. I'm still here mourning two months later. That's unprecedented in the gaming community. I should have been over it by now and been replaying all the games. I can't now. Not when I know Shepard can't be happy in at least ONE outcome.

I don't want a really happy ending. I want a moment of hapiness for Shepard and Miranda. The one they couldn't have.

:(

#45
Makrys

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Makrys wrote...

wickedgoodreed wrote...

This is one area that I'm cautiously optimistic the EC may be able to address satisfactorily. For whatever reason, Bioware devs have said that they didn't realize there was a demand for closure. But they do realize now, so here's to hope.


I don't buy that. That is such s***. You're telling me that we would invest in these LI and romances throughout 3 games and then NOT expect closure in the end? Well, I guess you do have your head in your arse then. Seriously, no one at Bioware could possibly think with that logic. That would be just pathetic.

(btw, 'you' was speaking of bioware, not you, wicked. So no offense, not angry at you)


That was one of BW's comments about the ending backlash.  The ME series is pretty unique in that they made the companions around you so life-like that you actually to end up caring for them and even taking one as a LI.   



I hope a developer reads this thread. It would be so easy to shut people up.........


...What? It's not like they would tell us anything.

Regardless, I'm hopeful for the EC. I just want answers as to why the end wasn't the way it was supposed to be to begin with. Why did they lie to us... or did they?

:mellow:

Modifié par Makrys, 01 mai 2012 - 06:51 .


#46
Taboo

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Makrys wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Makrys wrote...

wickedgoodreed wrote...

This is one area that I'm cautiously optimistic the EC may be able to address satisfactorily. For whatever reason, Bioware devs have said that they didn't realize there was a demand for closure. But they do realize now, so here's to hope.


I don't buy that. That is such s***. You're telling me that we would invest in these LI and romances throughout 3 games and then NOT expect closure in the end? Well, I guess you do have your head in your arse then. Seriously, no one at Bioware could possibly think with that logic. That would be just pathetic.

(btw, 'you' was speaking of bioware, not you, wicked. So no offense, not angry at you)


That was one of BW's comments about the ending backlash.  The ME series is pretty unique in that they made the companions around you so life-like that you actually to end up caring for them and even taking one as a LI.   



I hope a developer reads this thread. It would be so easy to shut people up.........


...What? It's not like they would tell us anything.

Regardless, I'm hopeful for the EC. I just want answers as to why the end wasn't the way it was supposed to be to begin with. Why did they lie to us... or did they?

:mellow:


I just want them to KNOW. Knowing is better than nothing. Forward it to Weekes maybe? On Twitter? I trust him more than Walters.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 mai 2012 - 06:52 .


#47
Thorn Harvestar

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To be completely honest, I was preparing myself for Shepard having to die in the end.

But I was expecting some type of epilogue scene, maybe a sequence where a pair of little blue children run over to a turian sitting on a beach, and asking for Uncle Garrus to tell them another story about what their father was like...

That would have been bittersweet, and I would have enjoyed it.

But seeing the Normandy abandon Shepard, and crash land, lost in space? And then to see that Shepard apparently survived? That was just painful. It feels as-is like there is no hope to reunite with your crew. And for absolutely no good reason. And we don't even get an epilogue about their status on that faraway planet.

#48
Kunari801

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...
Emotional roller coaster today for me.  I watched the ME3 launch party interviews on YouTube today and it rekindled the sense of anticipation and optimism I used to find when thinking about Mass Effect.  To be sure the ME universe it not a utopian Star Trek type universe yet it was always one with hope for the future.   Then I think of the ending and the sense of loss returns reopening the wounds I thought were healing. 


I wishe they would just understand that it just simply hurts. It's like a bad break-up. I'm still here mourning two months later. That's unprecedented in the gaming community. I should have been over it by now and been replaying all the games. I can't now. Not when I know Shepard can't be happy in at least ONE outcome.

I don't want a really happy ending. I want a moment of hapiness for Shepard and Miranda. The one they couldn't have.

:(  


I wanted you to make a thread on this topic, I just didn't realize how much it'd hurt me or yourself -- for that I'm sorry.  

Head canon is what got me back in and the games are so good it's not hard to loose oneself in the story again.  I still got chills when speaking to Soverign, killing Saren, getting spaced saving Jokers ass, revealing the Normandy SR2, etc.


Thorn Harvestar wrote...

To be completely honest, I was preparing myself for Shepard having to die in the end.

But I was expecting some type of epilogue scene, maybe a sequence where a pair of little blue children run over to a turian sitting on a beach, and asking for Uncle Garrus to tell them another story about what their father was like... 


:crying: that would have been touching much more so than Stargazer. 

Modifié par Kunari801, 01 mai 2012 - 06:59 .


#49
Taboo

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Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...
Emotional roller coaster today for me.  I watched the ME3 launch party interviews on YouTube today and it rekindled the sense of anticipation and optimism I used to find when thinking about Mass Effect.  To be sure the ME universe it not a utopian Star Trek type universe yet it was always one with hope for the future.   Then I think of the ending and the sense of loss returns reopening the wounds I thought were healing. 


I wishe they would just understand that it just simply hurts. It's like a bad break-up. I'm still here mourning two months later. That's unprecedented in the gaming community. I should have been over it by now and been replaying all the games. I can't now. Not when I know Shepard can't be happy in at least ONE outcome.

I don't want a really happy ending. I want a moment of hapiness for Shepard and Miranda. The one they couldn't have.

:(  


I wanted you to make a thread on this topic, I just didn't realize how much it'd hurt me or yourself -- for that I'm sorry.  

Head canon is what got me back in and the games are so good it's not hard to loose oneself in the story again.  I still got chills when speaking to Soverign, killing Saren, getting spaced saving Jokers ass, revealing the Normandy SR2, etc.




I'll forward the thread to Weekes and the staff on Twitter. I just want it to be better again.

It hurts. It ****ing hurts.

#50
nitefyre410

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

Mass Effect has never really had a terribly good overall story. In it's most basic terms, sure, it sounds pretty interesting, but in reality it's never been great.

BioWare excel at characterization. Why do I think ME2 has the best story? Derp, it's because of the characters. There are heaps, each is interesting in their own way, and the great think about that game in particular was that you could ignore characters you disliked (in my case Jack), and cultivate a more meaningful relationship with those that you did (Garrus, Thane, everyone else except Jack, really).

Now, Mass Effect 3 did a half decent job with a lot of characters by weaving them into the overall narrative. Basically, I'm talking about Tuchanka and Rannoch. With the former, you had Mordin/Wiks, Wrex/Wreave, and Bakara, and with the former it was Tali, Legion (or his stand in), and the Admirals.

Every other character felt left out except Liara, EDI, Miranda (kind of) and at least partly the Virmire Survivor, during the story. A few missions here and there caused pretty much the entire cast of the last game besides Shepard to be reduced to a cameo. Part of that is a lack of squadmates, another being partly due to a lack of any character-centric 'loyalty' missions, and another part being amuch higher concentration on the over-arching plot rather than the specific parts of it.

That last part is especially prevalent in the ending. Yes, I'm going there again. BioWare took their eye off the ball, as it were. It seems they decided not to concentrate on saving this cycle, these species, and these characters, and turned Shepard's conflict into a fight for the entirety of organic existence with some bull**** ass-pull plot change - the Catalyst's problem.

Now, I don't know about you, but playing as a Paragon Shepard who romanced Liara, arguably the character with the most screen-time besides the Commander herself, this battle was not a simple fight for survival, to end the Reapers cycle of destruction. It was a fight to save Shepard's friends, to save this incarnation of advanced life. Shepard would not do that by sacrificing everything that made them fight in the first place, she says as much a few times. Something along the lines of "and I'll do it without sacrificing the soul of our species", to the Illusive Man, probably at the end of ME2 after you destroy the Collector Base. 

You could argue that every choice you make could have that motivation, but I'm sorry, Shepard would not, WOULD NOT, choose any of these options. They all have you commit some sort of attrocity, or have you basically agree with the villain whom you potentially just convinced to shoot himself, since he was F*CKING INDOCTRINATED

TL;DR - If BioWare wanted this to be a grand and epic struggle for the existence of life itself then they shouldn't have concentrated on such a wide range of characters, factions, and allies, with so much death. They shouldn't have created the Mass Effect universe with the amount of detail and care that they did.

   

OMG, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.  Finally someone said it... Mass Effect was not the greatest story ever.    

To the  second bold part... they seemed to forgot that if Shepard stops the  Reapers and saves this cycle and these characters.  Guess what by defualt you save the ones after  it from  Reapers too  - there really is no need even mention the whole  "organic vs synthetic"  problem which we solved 2 hours prior...<_<     

 Mac Walters committed character assassination   in the greatest sense at the end of the game.   You are right  Shepard choose niether of these... its like  he as the lead writer did not understand anything about the character he was writing.   

Mass Effect did not need the turned into this grand struggle for the existence of life in the ending because that is something  that is usually reflected on after the grand struggle.  I can point out several stories, games and shows when it boiled down the  grand struggle for life but the characters driving motivations have always been more personal that ties them to the  greater struggle.. 


More importantly  Mass Effect 3 ending fails a Bittersweet ending because it lacks the personal connection  where we can see the effects not only Shepard but the people around  him/her. 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 01 mai 2012 - 07:01 .