154 réponses à ce sujet

[Omega Torsk]

Sorry The Hudson, but your "artistic vision" isn't enough to make me forget the characters you caused me to love. I want Shepard to live! I want to see Shepard re-united with his LI! You took all of that away with the """ending""". I mean, sure. I'm thrown a bone and given a whopping 4 second scene of Shepard breathing... and then credits. No epilogue (and the stargazer scene does not count), just nothing.

I hope that the EC redeems all of that... I really do.

[Taboo]

MissNet wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

So very true, OP.
You don't need additional semi-philosophic symbolism to make the end of a great war profound and meaningful. It already is.
You don't need to obliterate civilization to evoke a sense of sadness.
You don't need people on a hostile uninhabited planet to show a new start.

All you need is some sense and a bit of writing skills. 

A SHOCKING realization I know.

Who.......who is responsible?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 mai 2012 - 07:04 .

[nitefyre410]

MissNet wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

So very true, OP.
You don't need additional semi-philosophic symbolism to make the end of a great war profound and meaningful. It already is.
You don't need to obliterate civilization to evoke a sense of sadness.
You don't need people on a hostile uninhabited planet to show a new start.

All you need is some sense and a bit of writing skills. 

 

Exactly, if they had any  skill they   would not have had to go over board like that...

[NUM13ER]

It was pretty much the definition of bittersweet up until the Catalyst reveal. I thought Shepard was going to die beside his mentor saving the galaxy. And I was genuinely moved by the notion. If the Crucible had only just fired off and ended the Reaper menace. They would just need an epilogue and they would have had me raving about how brilliant the ending was.

Then suddenly an elevator appeared out of thin air...

Modifié par NUM13ER, 01 mai 2012 - 07:14 .

[Kunari801]

NUM13ER wrote...

It was pretty much the definition of bittersweet up until the Catalyst reveal. I thought Shepard was going to die beside his mentor saving the galaxy. And I was genuinely moved by the notion. If the Crucible had only just fired off and ended the Reaper menace. They would just need an epilogue and they'd have me raving about how brilliant the ending was.

Then suddenly an elevator appeared out of thin air...

Yes, I too was expecting to die beside Anderson and I would have cheered the brilliant ending of ME3.   That ending would have let my Shepard die as a hero instead of a sheep.  

[Taboo]

Yeah. Well. I don't plan on going anywhere. People have already told me they are tweeting the thread to Weekes.

Unless HBO calls first. But that won't be for months.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 mai 2012 - 07:17 .

[Omega Torsk]

Kunari801 wrote...

NUM13ER wrote...

It was pretty much the definition of bittersweet up until the Catalyst reveal. I thought Shepard was going to die beside his mentor saving the galaxy. And I was genuinely moved by the notion. If the Crucible had only just fired off and ended the Reaper menace. They would just need an epilogue and they'd have me raving about how brilliant the ending was.

Then suddenly an elevator appeared out of thin air...

Yes, I too was expecting to die beside Anderson and I would have cheered the brilliant ending of ME3.   That ending would have let my Shepard die as a hero instead of a sheep.  

I'm not gonna lie. I would be just as pissed if my Shepard was forced to die. It would be that "bespoke ending that everybody gets" feeling. I want at least one of my Shepards to be reunited with his LI.

[nitefyre410]

Kunari801 wrote...

NUM13ER wrote...

It was pretty much the definition of bittersweet up until the Catalyst reveal. I thought Shepard was going to die beside his mentor saving the galaxy. And I was genuinely moved by the notion. If the Crucible had only just fired off and ended the Reaper menace. They would just need an epilogue and they'd have me raving about how brilliant the ending was.

Then suddenly an elevator appeared out of thin air...

Yes, I too was expecting to die beside Anderson and I would have cheered the brilliant ending of ME3.   That ending would have let my Shepard die as a hero instead of a sheep.  

 

That would have pissed me off ... less but I would have been... meh about the whole deal. I'm  rather sick of these sudden   endings that just cut and thats it enough with it Sorpano's  faded to black endings.   Once or twice is  enough... 

[Kunari801]

Omega Torsk wrote...

I'm not gonna lie. I would be just as pissed if my Shepard was forced to die. It would be that "bespoke ending that everybody gets" feeling. I want at least one of my Shepards to be reunited with his LI.  

nitefyre410 wrote...
That would have pissed me off ... less but I would have been... meh about the whole deal. I'm  rather sick of these sudden   endings that just cut and thats it enough with it Sorpano's  faded to black endings.   Once or twice is  enough... 

 

I was prepard for my Shepard to die at the end, I didn't *want* it, but I had prepared. 

I fully support endings where Shepard lives and reunites with his/her friends and LI.   Easy to have both:  Same scene just have a med-team arrive in time to save Shepard.  So it wouldn't take much to have either outcome in the same scene
. 
BTW Yes, I stole your sig Niefyre.  

When BW said there would be multiple endings, I figured we'd get a variety from "Reapers Win" to "Shepard wins & lives happy ever after" with a few where Shepard dies defeating the Reapers. 

Modifié par Kunari801, 01 mai 2012 - 07:35 .

[Taboo]

The hurt doesn't show but the pain still grows.

Dammit Bioware.

[Ryuukishi]

Overwhelmingly agree with the sentiments in this thread. I don't care about saving life in the galaxy on an abstract level. I care about Jack, Garrus, Miranda, Ash, etc. etc. That's what BioWare does well. That's what the ending forgot all about. (And to some degree the entire game, certainly compared to ME2, which was completely character-centric and the best game in the series.)

[nitefyre410]

Kunari801 wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

I'm not gonna lie. I would be just as pissed if my Shepard was forced to die. It would be that "bespoke ending that everybody gets" feeling. I want at least one of my Shepards to be reunited with his LI.  

nitefyre410 wrote...
That would have pissed me off ... less but I would have been... meh about the whole deal. I'm  rather sick of these sudden   endings that just cut and thats it enough with it Sorpano's  faded to black endings.   Once or twice is  enough... 

 

I was prepard for my Shepard to die at the end, I didn't *want* it, but I had prepared. 

I fully support endings where Shepard lives and reunites with his/her friends and LI.   Easy to have both:  Same scene just have a med-team arrive in time to save Shepard.  So it wouldn't take much to have either outcome in the same scene
. 
BTW Yes, I stole your sig Niefyre.  

When BW said there would be multiple endings, I figured we'd get a variety from "Reapers Win" to "Shepard wins & lives happy ever after" with a few where Shepard dies defeating the Reapers. 

  

I would  not  minded if done right  but there ways you go about doing that with a lot better presentation and alot more tears. Like  Legion, Thane and  Mordins  deaths...  

Same for me when they said multiple endings  I was thing a nice wide range...  

Feel free the Sig is aweomse.  

[a.m.p]

Taboo-XX wrote...

MissNet wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

So very true, OP.
You don't need additional semi-philosophic symbolism to make the end of a great war profound and meaningful. It already is.
You don't need to obliterate civilization to evoke a sense of sadness.
You don't need people on a hostile uninhabited planet to show a new start.

All you need is some sense and a bit of writing skills. 

A SHOCKING realization I know.

Who.......who is responsible?

But there is sense and writing skills in ME3, right? Or did I hallucinate that?

I was going into the game fully prepared for it to be a mediocre shooter - some of that marketing was truly frightening. But by the time Liara wandered into Shepard's cabin with her time capsule the story had a firm hold on me and  wasn't going to let me go anytime soon.

Seriously. That five-minute scene about what would happen if we fail contains 500 times more hope than the supposed victory ending.

[Kunari801]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The hurt doesn't show but the pain still grows.

Dammit Bioware.

Ok this thread is getting too sad.  You have got to watch this just for the comic relief:  

Now for the serious one: Mordin's final talk with Shepard in ME2 (Pre-Sucide mission) he says much the same in ME3 when he cures the genophage (I coudln't find that one on YouTube) 
http://www.youtube.c...3WNQ06Q#t=1m38s   Mordin said it well, the ending needed to be personal not some abstract concept.   How coudl the writers know this yet totally ignore it for the ending? 

Modifié par Kunari801, 01 mai 2012 - 07:47 .

[Kunari801]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...
I was prepard for my Shepard to die at the end, I didn't *want* it, but I had prepared. 

I fully support endings where Shepard lives and reunites with his/her friends and LI.   Easy to have both:  Same scene just have a med-team arrive in time to save Shepard.  So it wouldn't take much to have either outcome in the same scene
...
When BW said there would be multiple endings, I figured we'd get a variety from "Reapers Win" to "Shepard wins & lives happy ever after" with a few where Shepard dies defeating the Reapers. 

  

I would  not  minded if done right  but there ways you go about doing that with a lot better presentation and alot more tears. Like  Legion, Thane and  Mordins  deaths...  

Same for me when they said multiple endings  I was thing a nice wide range...   

Bleeding out (or not) next to Anderson while watching the cruicible fire off and kill the Reapers would have been a good ending.  Throw in good epilogue scenes and it could have had that perfect touch of bitter-sweet. 

[Taboo]

Kunari801 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...
I was prepard for my Shepard to die at the end, I didn't *want* it, but I had prepared. 

I fully support endings where Shepard lives and reunites with his/her friends and LI.   Easy to have both:  Same scene just have a med-team arrive in time to save Shepard.  So it wouldn't take much to have either outcome in the same scene
...
When BW said there would be multiple endings, I figured we'd get a variety from "Reapers Win" to "Shepard wins & lives happy ever after" with a few where Shepard dies defeating the Reapers. 

  

I would  not  minded if done right  but there ways you go about doing that with a lot better presentation and alot more tears. Like  Legion, Thane and  Mordins  deaths...  

Same for me when they said multiple endings  I was thing a nice wide range...   

Bleeding out (or not) next to Anderson while watching the cruicible fire off and kill the Reapers would have been a good ending.  Throw in good epilogue scenes and it could have had that perfect touch of bitter-sweet. 

In one ending.........

[nitefyre410]

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The hurt doesn't show but the pain still grows.

Dammit Bioware.

Ok this thread is getting too sad.  You have got to watch this just for the comic relief:  

Now for the serious one: Mordin's final talk with Shepard in ME2 (Pre-Sucide mission) he says much the same in ME3 when he cures the genophage (I coudln't find that one on YouTube) 
http://www.youtube.c...3WNQ06Q#t=1m38s   Mordin said it well, the ending needed to be personal not some abstract concept.   How coudl the writers know this yet totally ignore it for the ending? 

 


What this thread needs is some good examples of a really good Bittersweet endings... Games, Movies,  etc,etc,etc   

[Kunari801]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...
I was prepard for my Shepard to die at the end, I didn't *want* it, but I had prepared. 

I fully support endings where Shepard lives and reunites with his/her friends and LI.   Easy to have both:  Same scene just have a med-team arrive in time to save Shepard.  So it wouldn't take much to have either outcome in the same scene
...
When BW said there would be multiple endings, I figured we'd get a variety from "Reapers Win" to "Shepard wins & lives happy ever after" with a few where Shepard dies defeating the Reapers. 

  

I would  not  minded if done right  but there ways you go about doing that with a lot better presentation and alot more tears. Like  Legion, Thane and  Mordins  deaths...  

Same for me when they said multiple endings  I was thing a nice wide range...   

Bleeding out (or not) next to Anderson while watching the cruicible fire off and kill the Reapers would have been a good ending.  Throw in good epilogue scenes and it could have had that perfect touch of bitter-sweet. 

In one ending.........  

Did you miss the "or not"?   

I already proposed to have a med team arrive to save Shepard for the "Shepard Lives" versions.  They say there is still people on the Citadel so it's possible there are med teams on board and Hackett could have radioed them to find Shepard. 

[Kunari801]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The hurt doesn't show but the pain still grows.

Dammit Bioware.

Ok this thread is getting too sad.  You have got to watch this just for the comic relief:  

Now for the serious one: Mordin's final talk with Shepard in ME2 (Pre-Sucide mission) he says much the same in ME3 when he cures the genophage (I coudln't find that one on YouTube) 
http://www.youtube.c...3WNQ06Q#t=1m38s   Mordin said it well, the ending needed to be personal not some abstract concept.   How coudl the writers know this yet totally ignore it for the ending? 

 


What this thread needs is some good examples of a really good Bittersweet endings... Games, Movies,  etc,etc,etc   

Mordin's death curing the genophage.  That was a good heroic ending our Shepard's were denied. 

Babylon 5's last episode "Sleeping in Light" 

Return of the King (the movie) the book also ends well in bitter sweet sense. 

I'll think of more

[CmnDwnWrkn]

nitefyre410 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Mass Effect has never really had a terribly good overall story. In it's most basic terms, sure, it sounds pretty interesting, but in reality it's never been great.

BioWare excel at characterization. Why do I think ME2 has the best story? Derp, it's because of the characters. There are heaps, each is interesting in their own way, and the great think about that game in particular was that you could ignore characters you disliked (in my case Jack), and cultivate a more meaningful relationship with those that you did (Garrus, Thane, everyone else except Jack, really).

Now, Mass Effect 3 did a half decent job with a lot of characters by weaving them into the overall narrative. Basically, I'm talking about Tuchanka and Rannoch. With the former, you had Mordin/Wiks, Wrex/Wreave, and Bakara, and with the former it was Tali, Legion (or his stand in), and the Admirals.

Every other character felt left out except Liara, EDI, Miranda (kind of) and at least partly the Virmire Survivor, during the story. A few missions here and there caused pretty much the entire cast of the last game besides Shepard to be reduced to a cameo. Part of that is a lack of squadmates, another being partly due to a lack of any character-centric 'loyalty' missions, and another part being amuch higher concentration on the over-arching plot rather than the specific parts of it.

That last part is especially prevalent in the ending. Yes, I'm going there again. BioWare took their eye off the ball, as it were. It seems they decided not to concentrate on saving this cycle, these species, and these characters, and turned Shepard's conflict into a fight for the entirety of organic existence with some bull**** ass-pull plot change - the Catalyst's problem.

Now, I don't know about you, but playing as a Paragon Shepard who romanced Liara, arguably the character with the most screen-time besides the Commander herself, this battle was not a simple fight for survival, to end the Reapers cycle of destruction. It was a fight to save Shepard's friends, to save this incarnation of advanced life. Shepard would not do that by sacrificing everything that made them fight in the first place, she says as much a few times. Something along the lines of "and I'll do it without sacrificing the soul of our species", to the Illusive Man, probably at the end of ME2 after you destroy the Collector Base. 

You could argue that every choice you make could have that motivation, but I'm sorry, Shepard would not, WOULD NOT, choose any of these options. They all have you commit some sort of attrocity, or have you basically agree with the villain whom you potentially just convinced to shoot himself, since he was F*CKING INDOCTRINATED. 

TL;DR - If BioWare wanted this to be a grand and epic struggle for the existence of life itself then they shouldn't have concentrated on such a wide range of characters, factions, and allies, with so much death. They shouldn't have created the Mass Effect universe with the amount of detail and care that they did.

   

OMG, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.  Finally someone said it... Mass Effect was not the greatest story ever.    

To the  second bold part... they seemed to forgot that if Shepard stops the  Reapers and saves this cycle and these characters.  Guess what by defualt you save the ones after  it from  Reapers too  - there really is no need even mention the whole  "organic vs synthetic"  problem which we solved 2 hours prior...<_<     

 Mac Walters committed character assassination   in the greatest sense at the end of the game.   You are right  Shepard choose niether of these... its like  he as the lead writer did not understand anything about the character he was writing.   

Mass Effect did not need the turned into this grand struggle for the existence of life in the ending because that is something  that is usually reflected on after the grand struggle.  I can point out several stories, games and shows when it boiled down the  grand struggle for life but the characters driving motivations have always been more personal that ties them to the  greater struggle.. 


More importantly  Mass Effect 3 ending fails a Bittersweet ending because it lacks the personal connection  where we can see the effects not only Shepard but the people around  him/her. 

I totally agree.  Where ME really excels is in the stories told at the mission level.  I cared so much more about finding Kasumi's gray box, going with Jack to blow up the Pragia research facility, dispersing the Genophage cure, finding a 50,000-year-old Prothean in stasis, etc. than I did about killing the stupid metal hermit crabs.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 01 mai 2012 - 08:09 .

[Reorte]

Bittersweet? Needs to apply on both the character and the galaxy level. So very heavy casualties, some worlds almost totally wrecked, but a future for the galaxy. For the characters, some losses along the way (we had some and they were done very well) but also a chance of happiness for the survivors. One of those needs Shepard alive; as I've said before I didn't go through the whole romance thing to leave my favourite character with 100% bitter victory. How much bitter and how much sweet you got should've depended upon how well you played, and 100% sweet was never an option.

All of that is so blindingly obvious to me that I just can't understand why we didn't get it, or why some people seem to be happy with what we did get.

[TODD9999]

A good post.

It is quite amazing that BioWare managed to succeed in creating a cast of characters that I (and apparently many people) really care about, and then just throw them away at the end. Entire books or movies, entire series go by without managing to create characters that people can attach to this way. Many writers would probably do desperate things to be able to create that kind of character, that engenders that kind of attachment. And then . . . gone. Even the ones I care about the least, I still want to know what's going on in their lives.

I had originally planned to go back through ME2 multiple times, even if making the same decisions every time, in order to romance all of the love interests. Liara is alongside you in every game (even if only through DLC in ME2). Tali is just adorable, but grows into a dedicated champion for her people. Jack is an angry and hurt child-adult, who you can encourage to grow into a more whole person. Miranda is almost like Jack (ironically) in that you can encourage her to be more than she's been trapped into being, to really feel things. And you can see how they grow, either inside ME2, or across ME2 and ME3 (although the character development isn't really that great in ME3, but there is some change that's noted well). I could see echoes of Shepard in all of them, even if not romanced.

As things stand now, I don't feel that there's any point to doing such a thing. Between the ending that discards the characters, and the writing of the romances that (aside from one or two lines of dialogue being different) makes them have essentially no reflection of your past actions in the game, I have no motivation to see them all.

Which is a real shame. Only after I saw what they had done to my "faithful to Ashley" character romance arc did I realize that I felt much greater an attachment to Tali'zorah.

EDIT: More on topic about bittersweetness - the game didn't need to have the main character do a meaningless sacrifice to convey bittersweet.  Characters we've grown to like have sacrificed themselves, billions are dead, the relays are gone - to borrow a trope, killing off the main character is kicking the dog.  And yes, I said meaningless - not in sense of the events in the story (although the argument could be made), but rather in the sense of there being less meaning in a mandatory sacrifice than in one that's an option.

Hypothetically - what if the red ending was: shoot the cylinder, kill the reapers, but also kill EDI and the geth, while Shepard lives.  BUT you could CHOOSE to sacrifice Shepard, in order to save EDI and the geth!  Isn't that so much more interesting?  What does your Shepard do in that case?  Obviously this would have to be rescripted a bit for those who killed off the geth, but I hope that the idea of choosing whether or not to sacrifice Shepard makes the ending that much more meaningful, that much more personal, than a mandatory sacrifice.  Or maybe it's just me, but I think it would have been an improvement.  The game's all about choices and their consequences, right? 

Modifié par TODD9999, 01 mai 2012 - 08:22 .