336 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

Sauruz wrote...

"Listen to yourself... you're indoctrinated!"

If people disagreeing with you makes you so uncomfortable that you can only assume brainwashing - well, whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.

[jlb524]

MisterJB wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Do we really need the Catalyst to tell us that war and destruction is the ultimate fate of any civilization? It will happen for organics because we are, at our cores, selfish and greedy. 

How exactly does 'Synthesis' remove this issue?

I did not propose it would, only that the Catalyst's assumption of inevitable extinction is accurate.
Wheter or not I believe Synthesis will create an utopia is a different issue.

So, then what is the benefit of changing everyone again as far as this issue is concerned?

As frylock mentioned, it could just mean these new hybrids can just kill each other faster and/or create more advanced AI that kills faster.

Modifié par jlb524, 01 mai 2012 - 08:21 .

[jli84]

PDesign wrote...

This pretty much sums it all up...but you could change Andersons head with Sheps. Then you would have the goal of those three characters trough the entire series. My Shep wont divert from her mission at the very end by choosing the way of Saren or IM. Sorry EDI and sorry geth, but the reapers die...

[MisterJB]

jlb524 wrote...
So, then what is the benefit of changing everyone again as far as this issue is concerned?

Changing the fundamental composition of organics can lead to different lines of thinking, fundamentally changing the way people are. More empathy between organics and synthetics is, definitively, a possiblity.
And, even if it doesn't, the physical benefits alone (as evidence by any organic implanted with Reaper technology) are reason enough to choose Synthesis. Legion proved that Reaper technology can be used in our benefits without major negative consenquences.

[M Hedonist]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

"Listen to yourself... you're indoctrinated!"

If people disagreeing with you makes you so uncomfortable that you can only assume brainwashing - well, whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.

If I had to actually assume anything about the thinking behavior of this individual I'd say he/she's extremely idealistic with delusional tendencies, avoiding the fact that there is no reason to assume that reapers can be changed to be anything other than Lovecraftian horror creatures, even though all evidence (reaper indoctrinating people after its death) points towards the contrary, just so that his/her peaceful idealistic Synthesis fantasy won't be ruined.
But let's not try to ruin the mood, hm?

[Tom Lehrer]

MisterJB wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
So, then what is the benefit of changing everyone again as far as this issue is concerned?

Changing the fundamental composition of organics can lead to different lines of thinking, fundamentally changing the way people are. More empathy between organics and synthetics is, definitively, a possiblity.
And, even if it doesn't, the physical benefits alone (as evidence by any organic implanted with Reaper technology) are reason enough to choose Synthesis. Legion proved that Reaper technology can be used in our benefits without major negative consenquences.

Just because someone has a god-complex does not give them right to force this one everyone.

Sythesis is rape by a differnt name.

[PsyrenY]

Sauruz wrote...

If I had to actually assume anything about the thinking behavior of this individual I'd say he/she's extremely idealistic with delusional tendencies, avoiding the fact that there is no reason to assume that reapers can be changed to be anything other than Lovecraftian horror creatures, even though all evidence (reaper indoctrinating people after its death) points towards the contrary, just so that his/her peaceful idealistic Synthesis fantasy won't be ruined.
But let's not try to ruin the mood, hm?

The "Lovecraftian Horror creatures" left Earth of their own accord after Synthesis. They weren't forced to do so as in Control, and they weren't nuked as in Destroy - they just decided to leave. That act alone should show you that you changed something in them for the better.

And the "peaceful idealistic Synthesis fantasy" was not of my making - that is the tone of the epilogue. If Bioware wanted to portray Synthesis as the horror you believe it to be, they could have easily done so.

But let's ignore the evidence our own eyes give us, hm? 

[An English Gamer]

 "Man and machine! The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!" Yup, pretty much.

[Meltemph]

they just decided to leave. That act alone should show you that you changed something in them for the better.

Assumption. What they did was ambiguous, we don't know the long term intent at all, all we know is that synthesis stopped them from destroying earth(for now anywho).

And the "peaceful idealistic Synthesis fantasy" was not of my making - that is the tone of the epilogue. If Bioware wanted to portray Synthesis as the horror you believe it to be, they could have easily done so.

All you know with the synthesis ending is that Joker and EDI hug each other, which means they still like each other... That is all that is implied with the ending. We know nothing of the specifics it is all head-cannon to take out the idea of bad consequences being possible in ones choices.

Modifié par Meltemph, 01 mai 2012 - 10:18 .

[jlb524]

MisterJB wrote...
Changing the fundamental composition of organics can lead to different lines of thinking, fundamentally changing the way people are. More empathy between organics and synthetics is, definitively, a possiblity.

It could also make things worse.

I also don't think Synthesis is necessary in order to cultivate empathy between organics and synthetics...actually it's impossible in the 'hybrid' situation since 'organics' won't exist anymore (synthetics may eventually exist when the hybrids make them and then you'll have a possible hybrids vs. synthetics issue).  

MisterJB wrote... 
And, even if it doesn't, the physical benefits alone (as evidence by any organic implanted with Reaper technology) are reason enough to choose Synthesis. Legion proved that Reaper technology can be used in our benefits without major negative consenquences.

But 'Synthesis' isn't necessary for this either.  Some people already use technology (Reaper or otherwise) in order to improve their physical form...but it's their choice to do so (in most cases I'd say).

[Ianamus]

I don't care what the creepy transhumanists say, turning every creature into the galaxy into a cyborg without consent is a horrible idea, and seriously disturbing. 

Lets be honest, the suicide count after synthesis would be phenominal, and how would society even work? Can people produce organic babies still?

And what happens when new organic life develops, as it eventually will? Will it be forced to become part machine too? Shepard and the current generation of life would be no better than the Reapers. Worse, in fact. 

Synthesis disgusts me to the core, and is the worse "best" ending I've ever seen. 

Modifié par EJ107, 01 mai 2012 - 08:45 .

[M Hedonist]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

If I had to actually assume anything about the thinking behavior of this individual I'd say he/she's extremely idealistic with delusional tendencies, avoiding the fact that there is no reason to assume that reapers can be changed to be anything other than Lovecraftian horror creatures, even though all evidence (reaper indoctrinating people after its death) points towards the contrary, just so that his/her peaceful idealistic Synthesis fantasy won't be ruined.
But let's not try to ruin the mood, hm?

The "Lovecraftian Horror creatures" left Earth of their own accord after Synthesis. They weren't forced to do so as in Control, and they weren't nuked as in Destroy - they just decided to leave. That act alone should show you that you changed something in them for the better.

And the "peaceful idealistic Synthesis fantasy" was not of my making - that is the tone of the epilogue. If Bioware wanted to portray Synthesis as the horror you believe it to be, they could have easily done so.

But let's ignore the evidence our own eyes give us, hm? 

Literally nothing of that is evidence for anything.

That act alone should show you that you changed something in them for the better.

Nothing but wishful thinking and headcanon. The Catalyst could have simply ordered the reapers to leave for some reason.
Also, nothing says the Catalyst wouldn't eventually be tired of this 'solution' and come to the conclusion that it doesn't fix the problem for some reason. He was pretty quick to abandon the reaper 'solution' he had been using for billions of years.

And the "peaceful idealistic Synthesis fantasy" was not of my making -
that is the tone of the epilogue. If Bioware wanted to portray Synthesis
as the horror you believe it to be, they could have easily done so.

Now you're using tone and imagery for your argument? That doesn't make the implications of it any less worse - it just means Bioware either forgot they've written reapers as lovecraftian horror creatures or it's part of some kind of plot twist. Speculations for everyone.
Another thing: The Destruction ending doesn't show us how the Geth get destroyed, either. They could have easily done so. But they didn't. Think about it.

Modifié par Sauruz, 01 mai 2012 - 08:59 .

[M Hedonist]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

@Optimystic_X: Btw... you still didn't tell me how a) 'people can become cyborgs if they want' logically leads to 'everybody becomes a cyborg', but I don't expect that anymore tbh.

I would assume whole races, like the Quarians did, to incorporate cybernetic enhancements at some point once the technology becomes available.

For the Quarians, necessity obviated the expense, but for others the cost/benefit makes it impractical. But as technology improves, that metric will shift.

Of course, you're just blindly assuming that nobody would oppose the idea and it's just a matter of time until everybody would eventually be ok with it. What if something happens to a culture that it eternally has a grudge against the idea of Synthesis, like what happened to the Protheans? There just are too many unknowns, you cannot say that all life in the galaxy will eventually come to the same conclusion before some kind of other cataclysmic event happens that convinces everything of the contrary - Ah,  forget it. I'm tired of trying to get my point across after pages and pages of completely unproductive arguing.

[MisterJB]

jlb524 wrote...
But 'Synthesis' isn't necessary for this either.  Some people already use technology (Reaper or otherwise) in order to improve their physical form...but it's their choice to do so (in most cases I'd say).

And others can't afford it. Synthesis extends it to everyone, regardless of their financial status.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 mai 2012 - 08:52 .

[M Hedonist]

MisterJB wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
But 'Synthesis' isn't necessary for this either.  Some people already use technology (Reaper or otherwise) in order to improve their physical form...but it's their choice to do so (in most cases I'd say).

And others can't afford it. Synthesis extends it to everyone, regardless of their financial status.

Now we're being charitable?
A big round of applause, everybody.
The poor can afford Synthesis.

[MisterJB]

Any organic attempts to transhumanism will always be halted by resources and finances.
That Synthesis can simply bypass this and offer it to everyone has always been one of the traits that attracted me the most to this ending.

[PsyrenY]

I'm not saying everyone will come to enjoy it. I'm saying that if everyone is alive, they'll at least get the chance to undo it later if they hate it so much. (Especially if it improves everyone's brain power as much as EDI implies for transhumanists.)

Better yet, they can find a way to undo it selectively, while leaving those who enjoy their presumably enhanced abilities intact.

Sauruz wrote...

Literally nothing of that is evidence for anything.

Nothing but wishful thinking and headcanon. The Catalyst could have simply ordered the reapers to leave for some reason.

Right, you stopped the invasion. That's a good thing.

And even if Synthesis does nothing but turn us green and make the Reapers leave, we've bought even more time by doing it. Now the "conventional victory" armchair admirals can get to work making more dreadnoughts like they wanted.

But for Synthesis to truly be the solution the Catalyst believes it to be, it has to make synthetics obsolete. That itself implies a lot of upgrades for organics during the hybridization process.

Sauruz wrote... 
Also, nothing says the Catalyst wouldn't eventually be tired of this 'solution' and come to the conclusion that it doesn't fix the problem for some reason. He was pretty quick to abandon the reaper 'solution' he had been using for billions of years.

Except he didn't do that on a whim, he did that after you altered his programming with the super-macguffin.

Sauruz wrote... 
Now you're using tone and imagery for your argument? That doesn't make the implications of it any less worse - it just means Bioware either forgot they've written reapers as lovecraftian horror creatures or it's part of some kind of plot twist. Speculations for everyone.

I find it amusing that "speculation" became some sort of curse word around here. 
Speculation can result in rather beautiful things. Have you read Siduri's epilogue slides?

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 01 mai 2012 - 09:01 .

[Verit]

Synthesis has nothing to do with Saren. I'm not sure why people keep making that connection. Synthesis does not create a symbiosis between organic life and synthetic life. All living beings that are mutated by Synthesis no longer have any organic or synthetic parts, that's the whole point. All they are built of is the "new framework" (supposedly "new DNA", but makes zero sense). Synthesis removes the concept of organics and synthetics altogether.

[M Hedonist]

First off, the thought that you could 'undo' the changes done to the fundaments of life is hilarious. Can't believe you really pulled that one.

Optimystic_X wrote...
Except he didn't do that on a whim, he did that after you altered his programming with the super-macguffin.

So, people have learned to construct something that can suddenly alter the Catalyst's programming. And, in your own fantasy version of Synthesis, people become super smart thanks to Synthesis. There's something awfully wrong here, but I don't know exactly what. I could probably use some logical inference to explain how this would inevitably lead to a problem... hm...

Optimystic_X wrote...
I find it amusing that "speculation" became some sort of curse word around here. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/blushing.png[/smilie]
Speculation can result in rather beautiful things. Have you read Siduri's epilogue slides?

Having to headcanon your own ending is not a good thing. It's rather sad that the devs have lost all understanding at all of what the fans want. They've become completely detached from the fanbase, so we now have to rely on each other to provide closure for their story. It's beautiful in a certain way, yes. But then a quote from Alistair comes to mind: "You know, one good thing about the Blight is how it brings people together."

[frylock23]

MisterJB wrote...

Any organic attempts to transhumanism will always be halted by resources and finances.
That Synthesis can simply bypass this and force it on everyone has always been one of the traits that attracted me the most to this ending.

FIFY

[frylock23]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I'm not saying everyone will come to enjoy it. I'm saying that if everyone is alive, they'll at least get the chance to undo it later if they hate it so much. (Especially if it improves everyone's brain power as much as EDI implies for transhumanists.)

Better yet, they can find a way to undo it selectively, while leaving those who enjoy their presumably enhanced abilities intact.

Here's a thought -

Why not just learn how to doit on our own without drastic space magic and then selectively do it to those who want it without bodily violating and fundamentally transforming every form of life in the known galaxy? It's much harder to undo something once done than it is to take baby steps in the first place.

[M Hedonist]

MisterJB wrote...

Any organic attempts to transhumanism will always be halted by resources and finances.
That Synthesis can simply bypass this and offer it to everyone has always been one of the traits that attracted me the most to this ending.

I can't believe I was actually kidding a few pages ago when I was talking about how any Shepard that takes 'Synthesis' is a delusional villain.

[PsyrenY]

Sauruz wrote...

First off, the thought that you could 'undo' the changes done to the fundaments of life is hilarious. Can't believe you really pulled that one.

The thought that you could bring people back from clinical brain death was once laughable too. Yet that is exactly what happens to Shepard. Be more optimistic.

 

Sauruz wrote... 

So, people have learned to construct something that can suddenly alter the Catalyst's programming. And, in your own fantasy version of Synthesis, people become super smart thanks to Synthesis.

Even if they don't, with the Reapers gone they have unlimited time to devote to the problem, if indeed a problem it is.

  

Sauruz wrote...  
There's something awfully wrong here, but I don't know exactly what.

I think it's more that you want there to be a problem. Though I can't fathom why. 

Sauruz wrote...  
Having to headcanon your own ending is not a good thing. It's rather sad that the devs have lost all understanding at all of what the fans want. They've become completely detached from the fanbase, so we now have to rely on each other to provide closure for their story. It's beautiful in a certain way, yes. But then a quote from Alistair comes to mind: "You know, one good thing about the Blight is how it brings people together."

You say that in jest, but that's exactly what it did.
I do welcome more clarification from the devs though, just as everyone else does.

frylock23 wrote...

Here's a thought -

Why not just learn how to doit on our own without drastic space magic and then selectively do it to those who want it without bodily violating and fundamentally transforming every form of life in the known galaxy? It's much harder to undo something once done than it is to take baby steps in the first place.

If that were an option I would gladly do it. But I have faith in the resilience of the organic races, they adapted to the Reapers quickly enough.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 01 mai 2012 - 09:34 .

[M Hedonist]

Sauruz wrote... 



So, people have learned to construct
something that can suddenly alter the Catalyst's programming. And, in
your own fantasy version of Synthesis, people become super smart thanks
to Synthesis.

Even if they don't, with the Reapers gone they have unlimited time to devote to the problem, if indeed a problem it is.

I don't think you understand what I'm implying. If people become smart enough to undo something as severe as changing the fundaments of life, there's no reason people couldn't learn to change the Catalyst's programming again as others have already done or learn to directly control the reapers. And the only thing you have to say to that is that people will have enough time to prepare for that?

Optimystic_X wrote...
  

Sauruz wrote...  
There's something awfully wrong here, but I don't know exactly what.

I think it's more that you want there to be a problem. Though I can't fathom why.

Or having the Lovecraftian horror creatures that are a corruption to everybody around them sitting around somewhere really is a potential problem and you just want to ignore it.

[PsyrenY]

Sauruz wrote...

I don't think you understand what I'm implying. If people become smart enough to undo something as severe as changing the fundaments of life, there's no reason people couldn't learn to change the Catalyst's programming again as others have already done or learn to directly control the reapers. And the only thing you have to say to that is that people will have enough time to prepare for that?

But you can make that kind of fearmongering argument about anything. The Rachni might be controlled again, kill them! The Geth might be controlled again, kill them! The Asari might produce more Ardat-Yakshi, ban all pureblood pairings! 

The guy controlling the Reapers, who I remind you once more has no reason to lie, says "do X and the Reaping will stop forever." That alone was enough to get my Shepard to at least listen, and when coupled with the drawbacks of the other options it sealed the deal for me.

Sauruz wrote...  

Or having the Lovecraftian horror creatures that are a corruption to everybody around them sitting around somewhere really is a potential problem and you just want to ignore it.

Control is also a potential problem. Destroy is not, but the price was too high for my Shepard; I can certainly understand if yours went with it though, I'm not condemning you for that.