336 réponses à ce sujet

[frylock23]

Optimystic_X wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

No, it's fundamentally the same. Both Eugenics and nanotechnology seek to "improve" people. What if people don't feel that they are being "improved"? What you may see as a benefit may not be viewed that way by others. You may find a drastically lengthened lifespan to be a benefit, but there are those who would find an arificially lengthened lifespan to be an atrocity. I would be speaking about those whose belief systems lead them to eschew the use of technology. You would be making their very bodies a violation of their deepest beliefs against their will. Your so-called benefits would be making their own lived a violation of their basic principles.

One man's treasure is another man's trash.

I would regret the need to impugn on their beliefs, but my own beliefs don't allow me to consider genocide as acceptable or to gamble with the lives of a galaxy.

So, you go ahead and destroy all organic life in the galaxy by rewriting it into something entirely other?

How is that not a genocide of it's own type? After what you do there is no more organic life at all.

[Taboo]

Sepharih wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
Godwin yet again. Can you people really find no other way to articulate your point of view besides RAH?

Once again, you invoke Godwin, not me.  Eugenics /=/ Hitler. Eugenics is an accurate description of what you are talking about.

Optimystic_X wrote... 
And no, nanotechnology and eugenics are completely different. Eugenics has no scientific basis, merely racism. Nanotechnology has obvious benefits, as proven by our own world, the Quarians, the Salarians, and even the Human military.

Of course Eugenics has a scientific basis.  We've been doing selective breeding in livestock and animals for years.  Last I checked, the space brat's promotion of synthesis included crafting "new DNA".   Reshaping the entire genetic structure of all life everywhere to fit a framework that it finds to be preferable and ideal is EUGENICS, period.

He still hasn't figured out that Synthesis creates a new type of DNA. He thinks it's a hardware upgrade. HARDWARE.

[M Hedonist]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

And changing the fundamental concept of life forever based on the 21 words Catalyst uses to establish and explain Synthesis while also leaving reapers alive is not gambling with the lives of a galaxy? What?

It's the one ending where the guy controlling the Reapers says the cycle will end. The same guy that, if he simply wanted to win, didn't have to bring me up in the space elevator or talk to me at all.

They're all a gamble, but Synthesis less so than Control, and doesn't result in genocide unlike Destroy.

But you have no idea how life will be like afterwards. There is no logical way to assume the consequences of your choice. There are more unknowns in this scenario than in any other. The fundamentals of life have irreversibly been changed and we have no idea whether it's for the better or for the worse. The only thing we do know is that the reapers approve of that scenario which doesn't cast a good light on it.

[PsyrenY]

frylock23 wrote...

So, you go ahead and destroy all organic life in the galaxy by rewriting it into something entirely other?

How is that not a genocide of it's own type? After what you do there is no more organic life at all.

If you view all change as destruction, I have news for you - your body is being destroyed every day. Stop killing yourself!

[survivor_686]

In response to OP:

Its Sovereign's "vision" mixed in with a bit of Saren's despair.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Not true - the Catalyst provides more assurance over Synthesis. ("The cycle will end.") Over Control, he casts only doubt. ("Or do you believe you can control us?")

Catalyst Credibility 101:

Destroy - Implication of Shepard's death > Shepard survives
Control - Confirmation of Shepard's death > Shepard cannot truly die or they wouldn't have forced the Reapers to leave Earth
Synthesis - No mention of Shepard's death > Shepard dies

Synthesis is where the Reapers win. Of course he's enthusiastic about it. It's the choice he wants you to take.

Synthesis is thus the surer option for saving everyone. Unless you don't believe the Catalyst, in which case you may as well roll 1d3 to decide.

Did you believe Saren?

 

We don't know it won't either.

Same can be said of control.

Perhaps. Personally I chalk that up to lazy animation.

They made a whole new scene of him embracing EDI but forgot to make him stop limping?
Possible, but even more disappointing.

And in both cases Shepard acted unilaterally. You're getting it!

On 300k people only. Who Shepard can try to warn.
Even if Shepard is stopped by ridiculous plot contrivance, the point is Shepard can try.

Shepard can't please everyone; attempting to do so is futile.

So Shepard took the BioWare route.
Can't please everyone. Therefore, please as few as possible.

[Tom Lehrer]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Not true - the Catalyst provides more assurance over Synthesis. ("The cycle will end.") Over Control, he casts only doubt. ("Or do you believe you can control us?")

He says THIS cycle will end. What about the next one?

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

So, you go ahead and destroy all organic life in the galaxy by rewriting it into something entirely other?

How is that not a genocide of it's own type? After what you do there is no more organic life at all.

If you view all change as destruction, I have news for you - your body is being destroyed every day. Stop killing yourself!

Again. The lack of inference you make is shocking.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 mai 2012 - 06:28 .

[M Hedonist]

Optimystic_X wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

So, you go ahead and destroy all organic life in the galaxy by rewriting it into something entirely other?

How is that not a genocide of it's own type? After what you do there is no more organic life at all.

If you view all change as destruction, I have news for you - your body is being destroyed every day. Stop killing yourself!

You change your DNA every day?
I'm starting to see why that one guy is always going on about how your points lack any inference.
Btw you still didn't explain how a) 'people can become cyborgs if they want' logically leads to 'everybody becomes a cyborg'.

Modifié par Sauruz, 01 mai 2012 - 06:32 .

[Taboo]

Sauruz wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

So, you go ahead and destroy all organic life in the galaxy by rewriting it into something entirely other?

How is that not a genocide of it's own type? After what you do there is no more organic life at all.

If you view all change as destruction, I have news for you - your body is being destroyed every day. Stop killing yourself!

You change your DNA every day?
I'm starting to see why that one guy is always going on about how your points lack any inference.

You make new cells everyday. Your DNA doesn't fundamentally change.

Awe. Pure awe. That's the only feeling I have when I read posts like that.

[PsyrenY]

Sauruz wrote...

But you have no idea how life will be like afterwards. There is no logical way to assume the consequences of your choice. There are more unknowns in this scenario than in any other. The fundamentals of life have irreversibly been changed and we have no idea whether it's for the better or for the worse. The only thing we do know is that the reapers approve of that scenario which doesn't cast a good light on it.

As my username should indicate, I'm optimistic. You're right that Synthesis has a large number of unknowns. This is why I don't begrudge anyone for choosing differently, and this is why I'm looking forward to Extended Cut as much as everyone else here.

But Synthesis could just as easily be positive. After I chose Synthesis, I saw Joker and EDI looking very happy in their new Eden - not husks, not going mad and seeking to kill themselves either. It wasn't much of an epilogue of course, but it's enough that I can sleep like a baby at night. If the game wanted to portray Synthesis as negatively as you do, it could have easily done so. That it didn't is telling, from my perspective.

[Wabajakka]

Synthesis and Control thorought the entire series are portrayed as the ideals of two villans, both of which you kill over those very ideas, then they suddenly become true at the final moment and you believe it because some projection of a kid, supposedly the controller of Reapers told you so? No.

Control is what Javik said indoc'd agents of his time believed in ffs!!!! Control and Synthesis are Reaper created ideals meant for fooling organics this is made obvious, the Reapers are also still alive in the Synthesis and Control endings! How can the goal of the entire series suddenly become unfulfilled at the last moment? Somethings not right there and I think EC will explain exactly that to us.

Sorry, but destroy is the only option which fulfills the goal of what everyone in the galaxy was striving for... Destroying the Reapers. We don't even know if the Geth are destroyed, they're software not hardware, just like EDI is, which is why those consequences also don't make any sense and why Shepard is still somehow alive shows that the kid lies.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 01 mai 2012 - 06:33 .

[frylock23]

Sepharih wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
Godwin yet again. Can you people really find no other way to articulate your point of view besides RAH?

Once again, you invoke Godwin, not me.  Eugenics /=/ Hitler. Eugenics is an accurate description of what you are talking about.

Optimystic_X wrote... 
And no, nanotechnology and eugenics are completely different. Eugenics has no scientific basis, merely racism. Nanotechnology has obvious benefits, as proven by our own world, the Quarians, the Salarians, and even the Human military.

Of course Eugenics has a scientific basis.  We've been doing selective breeding in livestock and animals for years.  Last I checked, the space brat's promotion of synthesis included crafting "new DNA".   Reshaping the entire genetic structure of all life everywhere to fit a framework that it finds to be preferable and ideal is EUGENICS, period.

Eugenics was quite popular among a number of folks. It found its strongest expression in **** Germany, but there were a number of famous Eugenicists in America and other countries, too. Margaret Sanger is a good example of an American Eugenicist and Kellogg of the cereal company (you'll never look at your corn flakes the same way). It was a very popular and absolutely reprehensible and sinister in its implications.

http://wiki.ask.com/...ugenics_Society
http://wiki.ask.com/Margaret_Sanger

Synthesis has similar implications in that it makes everyone the same and will eliminate the unfit or undesirable elements that create the conflict.

[richard_rider]

MisterJB wrote..

richard_rider wrote...
Besides you're talking about planets, there's plenty of them...what about organics, would you sacrifice the Salarians, the Asari, Humans, would you sacrifice an entire species to stop the reapers, to save the crucible, to win?

If the answer is yes, then synthesis is wrong,

I am failing to see the correlation between these two.

If you're willing to sacrifice an entire species to stop the reapers and win, then destroy is the only valid option.

[Lookout1390]

I just ****ing realized they didn't show Saren choosing the synthesis in those dream-sequences.

****ING BIOWARE

[M Hedonist]

Orange Tee wrote...

Synthesis and Control thorought the entire series are portrayed as the ideals of two villans, both of which you kill over those very ideas, then they suddenly become true at the final moment and you believe it because some projection of a kid, supposedly the controller of Reapers told you so? No.

+ Forcing unity on the world has always been the motive of 'delusion villain'-type characters.

[PsyrenY]

You guys sure are emotional about this. It's getting hard to answer everyone, so bear with me.

Sepharih wrote...

Once again, you invoke Godwin, not me.  Eugenics /=/ Hitler. Eugenics is an accurate description of what you are talking about.
...
Of course Eugenics has a scientific basis.  We've been doing selective breeding in livestock and animals for years.  Last I checked, the space brat's promotion of synthesis included crafting "new DNA".   Reshaping the entire genetic structure of all life everywhere to fit a framework that it finds to be preferable and ideal is EUGENICS, period.

The Swastika once meant something different too. If you want to avoid dragging such baggage into discussions, use different terms.

And whether or not individuals personally like nanotechnology does not change the fact that it has objective benefits.

Tom Lehrer wrote...

He says THIS cycle will end. What about the next one?

No, he says THE cycle will end. Meaning the supercycle, the one the Reaper cycle was created to prevent.
I can understand that part being confusing, but watch it again with subtitles on.

The Angry One wrote...

Catalyst Credibility 101:

Destroy - Implication of Shepard's death > Shepard survives
Control - Confirmation of Shepard's death > Shepard cannot truly die or they wouldn't have forced the Reapers to leave Earth
Synthesis - No mention of Shepard's death > Shepard dies

Synthesis is where the Reapers win. Of course he's enthusiastic about it. It's the choice he wants you to take.

This is totally illogical:
Not talking to me at all would mean the Reapers have a 100% chance of victory.
Assuming you're correct and Synthesis is their victory, telling me about Destroy reduces their chance of victory to 66%. If Control works as advertised, they are now down to 33%.

If your POV is correct, and Synthesis = victory for the Reapers, why not offer that solution first? Why not offer it all the time, regardless of EMS? Why offer the others at all?

Did you believe Saren?

I had no reason to. Saren was never in a position where I could do nothing to stop him from winning, nor is he an AI.

Same can be said of control.

So pick that - I have no problem with you doing so, as I've said repeatedly.

They made a whole new scene of him embracing EDI but forgot to make him stop limping?
Possible, but even more disappointing.

The limping is recycled for all three endings, just like the rainbow explosion. I fully agree that it is disappointing.

On 300k people only. Who Shepard can try to warn.

So unilateral decisions are okay if they "only" affect 300k people? What strange ethics you have.

Also, he tried to warn them AFTER making the decision, not before.

So Shepard took the BioWare route.
Can't please everyone. Therefore, please as few as possible.

You're assuming Synthesis pleases fewer than the other options. What basis do you have for this?

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 01 mai 2012 - 06:47 .

[M Hedonist]

Optimystic_X wrote...

You're assuming Synthesis pleases fewer than the other options. What basis do you have for this?

The fact that there are many people here who voice their concerns about becoming a cyborg?
Or how suddenly changing the very fundaments of existence could be a traumatic experience to many, especially to less-developed cultures and species?

Modifié par Sauruz, 01 mai 2012 - 06:51 .

[Taboo]

Sauruz wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

You're assuming Synthesis pleases fewer than the other options. What basis do you have for this?

The fact that there are many people here who voice their concerns about becoming a cyborg?
Or how suddenly changing the very fundaments of existence could be a traumatic experience to many, especially to less-developed cultures and species?

He hasn't thought it through. He doesn't make inferences. He only considers what he believes to be beneficial to be valid.

[Silpheed58]

Has no one thought of this...  the Catalysts says that his solution will no longer work. What is his solution? Not the cycle, it's the reapers. He comes right out point blank and says it is the reapers that are his solution and they won't work any more.

Now think about this, 
when your EMS is high enough, the crucible created a new possibility for a solution in the catalyst. Now, when you combine this with what we know about synthesis, Sarin, and what the reapers really are, and take in to account the discussions about levels of galactic society. Synthesis really is just an upgraded version of the reaper solution, just on a scale the catalyst had not or could not come up with.

With Synthesis, the catalyst can do in an instant what it would take the reapers to accomplish in centuries.

Modifié par Silpheed58, 01 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[MisterJB]

adneate wrote...
So logically in that case it's the best choice with death being a more clearly understood and finite condition to the unknowns of control and synthesis. The morality of the choice of course being utterly irrelevent. Our problem being much too dire to leave to a large amount of unknown outcomes and destroy having the fewest unknowns makes it the practical choice.

I agree. Destroy is the choice with the least amount of unknown which is also why I believe it is the most popular choice.
However, this is only true if you consider the Reapers to be the problem rather than a symptom of it. The real problem being, as understood by the Catalyst, synthetic life and the inevitable extinction of organics at its hands. In this case, Destroy is the least effective choice since it only solves the problem temporarily by destroying all current synthetics whereas the other choices offer, at least, the possibility of a permanent solution that might or might not work.

Also, personally, I believe the possibilities offered by Synthesis are simply too good to pass up. I do not deny that it is a risk and that making a decision based on what might happen is not very practical.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[Taboo]

Silpheed58 wrote...

Has no one thought of this...  the Catalysts says that his solution will no longer work. What is his solution? Not the cycle, it's the reapers. He comes right out point blank and says it is the reapers that are his solution and they won't work any more.

Now think about this, 
when your EMS is high enough, the crucible created a new possibility for a solution in the catalyst. Now, when you combine this with what we know about synthesis, Sarin, and what the reapers really are, and take in to account the discussions about levels of galactic society. Synthesis really is just an upgraded version of the reaper solution, just on a scale the catalyst had not or could not come up with.

With Synthesis, the catalyst can do in an instant what it would take the reapers to accomplish in centuries.

[Wabajakka]

Sauruz wrote...

Orange Tee wrote...

Synthesis and Control thorought the entire series are portrayed as the ideals of two villans, both of which you kill over those very ideas, then they suddenly become true at the final moment and you believe it because some projection of a kid, supposedly the controller of Reapers told you so? No.

+ Forcing unity on the world has always been the motive of 'delusion villain'-type characters.

Sure, but it's honestly not even about genocide or anything like that.

It's the idea of control and synthesis themselves. It's made extremely clear throughout the entire series that these are the ideals of the Reapers, given to the organic that have fallen under their indoctrination.

Suddenly believing these ideas are possible (not to mention believing it while they are told to you by "the Reaper king child" lol) is rediculous.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

This is totally illogical:
Not talking to me at all would mean the Reapers have a 100% chance of victory.

You don't know that for sure.
Maybe the fleet will win, or maybe they will cripple the Reapers with so many losses that there's no guarantee they'll be able to subdue the next cycle.

Assuming you're correct and Synthesis is their victory, telling me about Destroy reduces their chance of victory to 66%. If Control works as advertised, they are now down to 33%.

All options preserve the Reaper agenda somehow. Destroy is by far the least desirable, of course, but what it wants is synthesis.

If your POV is correct, and Synthesis = victory for the Reapers, why not offer that solution first? Why not offer it all the time, regardless of EMS? Why offer the others at all?

Likely because the Crucible isn't capable of synthesis with low EMS.
Remember how upset the Catalyst sounds if you come there with low EMS? "WHY are you here!?"

I had no reason to. Saren was never in a position where I could do nothing to stop him from winning, nor is he an AI.

Saren told you there was nothing you could do to stop him or Sovereign. This didn't make it true.
So why do you believe there's no other way to stop the Catalyst?

So pick that - I have no problem with you doing so, as I've said repeatedly.

The point is everything you say about synthesis can be applied to control, so synthesis is a non-option.

So unilateral decisions are okay if they "only" affect 300k people? What strange ethics you have.

It's scale. 300k people vs. the entire galaxy, instead of changing trillions without their consent vs. finding another way.

Also, he tried to warn them AFTER making the decision, not before.

Because there was time to do so.

You're assuming Synthesis pleases fewer than the other options. What basis do you have for this?

Aside from the billions of life forms who simply won't have a clue what's been done to them and will panic (primitive worlds, etc.) the people of the galaxy have been fighting cyborg machines who've turned their friends and loved ones into cyborg machines. How will they feel after being turned into cyborg machines themselves?

Don't worry little Timmy, your mom and dad were turned into husks, but it's okay. Now you can be a husk too!

[M Hedonist]

Orange Tee wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Orange Tee wrote...

Synthesis and Control thorought the entire series are portrayed as the ideals of two villans, both of which you kill over those very ideas, then they suddenly become true at the final moment and you believe it because some projection of a kid, supposedly the controller of Reapers told you so? No.

+ Forcing unity on the world has always been the motive of 'delusion villain'-type characters.

Sure, but it's honestly not even about genocide or anything like that.

It's the idea of control and synthesis themselves. It's made extremely clear throughout the entire series that these are the ideals of the Reapers, given to the organic that have fallen under their indoctrination.

Suddenly believing these ideas are possible (not to mention believing it while they are told to you by "the Reaper king child" lol) is rediculous.

I'm just saying that any Shepard who picks Synthesis is the same kind of 'delusional villain'-character as many others before him. (Or he just didn't think it through)