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[Jonathan Seagull]

I very rarely post on the forums, but I just finished another run of DA2 and really felt the need to comment on it. This was my fifth playthrough, and I have to say it was very satisfying. I was actually quite surprised at how different Act III felt compared to my other games. Here be spoilers.

First off, I took a hard-line pro-templar (or more accurately, anti-mage) stance throughout. So the only person I was getting main quests from was Meredith, or other templars. In fact, I got a quest to destroy the last remnants of the mage underground that I never knew about before. Plus, I think Meredith turning on you no matter what makes at least somewhat more sense than Orsino going crazy on a pro-mage Hawke. Having said that, I think that having to fight both might be the major flaw of the endgame. I feel like there are enough potential differences up to that point that only having one boss (dependent on the side you choose) would have really solidified it as a different experience.

Among those differences, and made possible due to my allegiance to the templars, I was able to kill Anders, Merrill (sorry, Ethereal Writer), and Bethany. Well, Meredith killed Bethany, but still. From a roleplaying perspective, that was very satisfying. Sadly, I'm fairly certain that a pro-mage Hawke can't get rid of both Aveline and Fenris, and I don't believe Carver can be killed of he's still around.

There's plenty of criticism about how Act III unfolds, and I agree with a decent amount of it. Which is why I was so taken aback that my fifth run of the game felt so different, especially later on. Admittedly it helped that I played a more extreme character, but it really struck me that there actually are quite a few differences depending on your actions. Except for having to fight both Meredith and Orsino. That probably shouldn't have happened.

[caradoc2000]

There are quite a few side quests that you only get if you play an "extreme" character (in DA2 and/or in DAO). Thus people might never see these quests.

Examples are the quest you get if you kill the Dalish in DAO or the quest you get if you let Sophia Dryden live in Soldier's Peak.

[TEWR]

Jonathan Seagull wrote...
I was able to kill Merrill (sorry, Ethereal Writer) and Bethany

To be serious, you've just pointed out one of the bigger flaws of Act III with your entire post. It only makes a modicum of sense if you're pro-Templar.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 11:01 .

[keesio74]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To be serious, you've just pointed out one of the bigger flaws of Act III with your entire post. It only makes a modicum of sense if you're pro-Templar.

How? Because you still have to fight Meredith?

[TEWR]

keesio74 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To be serious, you've just pointed out one of the bigger flaws of Act III with your entire post. It only makes a modicum of sense if you're pro-Templar.

How? Because you still have to fight Meredith?

Orsino's insanity makes slightly more sense, whereas if you're pro-mage it comes completely ass end out of nowhere.

Best Served Cold's entire structure makes sense if you're supporting Meredith, even more so if you sent Grace to the Circle. Best Served Cold makes absolutely no sense if you're pro-mage.

Meredith had nothing to do with it. I feel her as a boss fight was necessary for the storyline, no matter which side you pick. And this isn't my pro-mage side saying this. Rather, it's the writer in me. I don't mind Orsino being a boss fight, but I'd much rather it not be the Harvester.

I would've rather had the option to fight or forgive Orsino be present. If you choose to fight him after he reveals to you how he knew Quentin, he fights you as a very powerful Force Mage.

If you choose to forgive him, then a Pride Demon tears through the Veil, possesses a Mage corpse, and does the Harvester ritual. Since it's a form of blood magic, demons would obviously know it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mai 2012 - 01:11 .

[Jonathan Seagull]

I do think that Act III flows much better as a templar supporter, and I think the whole game makes more sense as a non-mage. Having your apostate sister taken to the Circle rang truer then an apostate Hawke being allowed to do anything he wants with only a few references to him being watched. Also, it seems like there are more instances in the main storyline where you have to fight mages no matter what -- even if you want to support them -- than there are of similar situations with templars.

@caradoc, funny that you mention that, as this was also my only run encountering Sophia, thanks to my most extreme Warden allowing her to live. This was also my only Hawke that has allowed Feynriel to get possessed, turned Isabela over to the Qunari, done Fool's Gold, and murdered Gascard after having him help me fight Quentin (though I still received a package from him in Act III, which was weird. In fact I'm pretty sure I had to kill him twice). It was also the only time for the aforementioned killings of Merrill and Bethany. I do think that "extreme" playthroughs lend themselves to more exclusive content.

[TEWR]

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

I do think that Act III flows much better as a templar supporter, and I think the whole game makes more sense as a non-mage. Having your apostate sister taken to the Circle rang truer then an apostate Hawke being allowed to do anything he wants with only a few references to him being watched. Also, it seems like there are more instances in the main storyline where you have to fight mages no matter what -- even if you want to support them -- than there are of similar situations with templars.

Nah there are more Templars then mages that you fight. And even if you do fight more Mages -- which I highly doubt -- they're all apostates. Apostates don't condemn a Circle's mages.

And I think that both siblings should've lived, as they would've enhanced the Mage Templar aspect better had they been alive.

And Bethany's scene was one I detested. Not for what it does, but for how it was depicted. It goes against the established character of Kirkwall's Templars. Showing only two Templars apprehending an apostate was too few. I expected -- based on information I gathered -- to find 50 Templars outside my house led by Meredith, Orsino, Cullen, and Thrask.

That would've been much better for me.

[Jonathan Seagull]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

I do think that Act III flows much better as seems like there are more instances in the main storyline where you have to fight mages no matter what -- even if you want to support them -- than there are of similar situations with templars.

Nah there are more Templars then mages that you fight. And even if you do fight more Mages -- which I highly doubt -- they're all apostates. Apostates don't condemn a Circle's mages.

I wasn't really drawing a distinction between apostates and Circle mages. Just fighting mages vs templars. After all you have to fight Decimus no matter what. You have to fight Tahrone. You have to fight Grace. And Huon and Evelina. Quentin. The only templars I remember having to fight during the main story (that is, not including optional/companion quests) are the ones in the Chantry in Tranquility (which, you broke into the Chantry with the apparent goal to liberate a mage), and the ones working WITH the mages (Best Served Cold, plus the ones together in that room in the Templar Hall. Oh, and Ser Varnell, but thats a Qunari thing.

You only have to fight Karras if you choose to, or Alric if you do "Dissent." Am I forgetting other templars?

[TEWR]

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

I do think that Act III flows much better as seems like there are more instances in the main storyline where you have to fight mages no matter what -- even if you want to support them -- than there are of similar situations with templars.

Nah there are more Templars then mages that you fight. And even if you do fight more Mages -- which I highly doubt -- they're all apostates. Apostates don't condemn a Circle's mages.

I wasn't really drawing a distinction between apostates and Circle mages. Just fighting mages vs templars. After all you have to fight Decimus no matter what. You have to fight Tahrone. You have to fight Grace. And Huon and Evelina. Quentin. The only templars I remember having to fight during the main story (that is, not including optional/companion quests) are the ones in the Chantry in Tranquility (which, you broke into the Chantry with the apparent goal to liberate a mage), and the ones working WITH the mages (Best Served Cold, plus the ones together in that room in the Templar Hall. Oh, and Ser Varnell, but thats a Qunari thing.

You only have to fight Karras if you choose to, or Alric if you do "Dissent." Am I forgetting other templars?

Ah in that case where you don't accept the quests that involve Templars, you will undoubtedly fight more mages in-game for your personal canon of that save.

But in the full game, you fight more Templars then Mages.

[Jonathan Seagull]

But see, that was the point I was making. :-). Following only the main, required questline, you fight more (significantly more, it seems to me) mages than templars. There are more fights with them that are inevitable.

[keesio74]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Orsino's insanity makes slightly more sense, whereas if you're pro-mage it comes completely ass end out of nowhere.

hmmm... actually I felt the reverse. I could somewhat understand Orsino panicking both times but Meredith turning on you when you've been helping her is a stretch to me. I mean even with a pro-mage Hawke, O is doubtful the Mages can be saved and after beating the first initial wave, I can see him thinking more and more will come and eventually they will get taken down and he goes into despair.

Now for a pro-templar Hawke has has been fighting along Meredith, why would she turn on her strongest ally? Jealousy and the idol I suppose.

On the flip side, I think Cullen's action makes sense for a pro-templar Hawke and not so much for a pro-Hawke mage. He would think Meredith mad for wanting to kill a pro-templar Hawke but why would he be so opposed to the death of a pro-mage Hawke who is slaughtering templars left and right?

Modifié par keesio74, 02 mai 2012 - 03:14 .

[Urzon]

I always felt that the end boss fights were exaggerations on Varric's part.

I can see Orsino revealing that he was a blood mage during the templar raid, when his life might be in danger. He turns to it because a templar drains him of his mana and is about to kill him. He later reveals, when questioned about it, that he learned it for knowledge sake, not because he was going to actively use it. He is greatly dishearted because he turned to the one thing that proved Meredith right. I don't see him ever doing the Harvester ritual, ever. It just wouldn't go along with his character. Since he seems to care deeply for all the mages under his care, I don't see him using their bodies (whether dead or alive) for something like that.

I can also see the Idol enhancing Meredith's templar abilitys, while maybe also increasing her strength and agility. I don't see it giving her the power to do octuple jumps and turning statues into golem like things. Well... maybe the golem thing if they looked more like the profanes from the Deep Roads, but they didn't look all that profane-y to me.

Modifié par Urzon, 02 mai 2012 - 04:55 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

See.. This is exactly why I dislike DA2's story. It's written to appeal both pro templar and pro mages, Like Paragon Shepard and Renegade Shepard in ME. Only pro mage and pro templar has the reason to play DA 2. It's always Neutral diplomatic character who suffer and been alienated by narrative. DA 2 and ME 2 alike. They're both advocating extreme viewpoints. .

Anyway, either you are pro mage or pro templar non can compare how frustrating it was to be shoved aside to join mage cause only to be stabbed in the back by Orsino's insanity. Frankly, I feel glad I could kill all those insane jackass. I wish could finish off every single one of them. Both templar and mages for causing such mess. Luckily Cullen choose to step aside. Otherwise I would have stick my sword in his face as well. 

DA 2 ending left no sense of glory. Only empty feeling. Just the way how Hawke left without a word.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 02 mai 2012 - 05:24 .

[Realmzmaster]

keesio74 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Orsino's insanity makes slightly more sense, whereas if you're pro-mage it comes completely ass end out of nowhere.

hmmm... actually I felt the reverse. I could somewhat understand Orsino panicking both times but Meredith turning on you when you've been helping her is a stretch to me. I mean even with a pro-mage Hawke, O is doubtful the Mages can be saved and after beating the first initial wave, I can see him thinking more and more will come and eventually they will get taken down and he goes into despair.

Now for a pro-templar Hawke has has been fighting along Meredith, why would she turn on her strongest ally? Jealousy and the idol I suppose.

On the flip side, I think Cullen's action makes sense for a pro-templar Hawke and not so much for a pro-Hawke mage. He would think Meredith mad for wanting to kill a pro-templar Hawke but why would he be so opposed to the death of a pro-mage Hawke who is slaughtering templars left and right?

If you talk to Cullen you find that he has doubts about Meredith and if what she is doing is correct. He has doubts about if what he is doing is correct.  Cullen talks about Meredith's increased isolation from everyone. Also Meredith told Cullen that the templars were going to capture and arrest the Champion. Cullen is not willing to risk templars lives for no reason. Considering that Hawke and company have just taken apart every templar, demon or other enemy they have come across there is a strong possibility that Hawke and company could win.

If the Champion is willing to surrender or call a truce Cullen will take that option Meredith would not. So when Meredith orders the templars to attack the Champion he sees that Meredith has gone way to far and relieves her of command. He even joins in on the attack against Meredith, because she has become a threat to everyone.

[Jonathan Seagull]

@keesio, for me, Meredith's betrayal was less out of the blue because the game repeatedly reinforces how paranoid she is. It also foreshadows her having the lyrium idol if you do Varric's Act II quest. So it at least made a little more sense to me than Orsino.

Speaking of Orsino, on this run I noticed an interesting difference in the mage/templar endings. If you're with the mages, you and he apparently come upon several dead mages, which Orsino then decides to use to turn into the harvester. But if you're with the templars, when you find Orsino it seems that he himself has killed the mages, calling them "willing sacrifices...who would have died anyway." I'm not sure I ever realized that distinction before.

[Halberd96]

 Kind of like how ME 3 also had so much variables and dialog and stuff but the ending screwed everything up >_<

still neat though

[5trangeCase]

I would have been fine with Orsino becoming a weird flesh golem thing if there was some foreshadowing that he was losing his mind and investigating blood magic, you weren't given any. Even if you were a Templar, it seems a completely out-of-character decision.

[Jonathan Seagull]

Technically, there is the note from "O" that you find in Quentin's hideout, though I don't think that is quite enough.

I think the thing about the endgame is that a lot of the differences come down to what happens to your companions, as well as other more minor characters. It's the same way with the game in general.

You don't have any control over what happens with Leandra or Quentin, but you can decide what happens to Gascard. You can't change what happens to Grace or Thrask, but you can change what happens to Alain, Samson, and Keran. And at the Gallows, you aren't able to stop what happens with Meredith, Orsino, or Cullen. But you can decide the fates, to varying degrees, of Fenris, Aveline, Anders, Merrill, Sebastian, and Bethany. Plus a few mage extras.

As mentioned before, you're going to see the biggest number of differences by playing characters on the extreme ends of the spectrum. So people who play more moderate characters, even in multiple playthroughs (which I'd hazard a guess is a fairly decent amount), are not going to see a lot of that.

[keesio74]

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

Technically, there is the note from "O" that you find in Quentin's hideout, though I don't think that is quite enough.

That note really impacted me. I was pretty sympathic to mages and look at Orsino in a somewhat positive light until I read that. It really made me go towards the neutral path instead of pro-mage. At the end I chose to support the mages but it was reluctantly.

[keesio74]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

The end fight at the Gallows has allways struck me as weird. Meredith I can understand; but the fight with Orsino when playing pro mage didn't make any sense to me.

Like I mentioned in another post, I CAN understand Orsino turing either way. Even pro mage. Orsino is not a soldier. he is more an academic. So when the real fight begins and he sees death around him and the prospect of mages dying, he panics. Even though you win the first round, he still panics from the chaos. You see that in real life. People who panic, even if they had the upper hand. History is littered with examples of "if only so and so general didn't panic and realized he had the upper hand, they would have won the war". Meredith is a hardened soldier. She would understand there is a cost for war (though she would go too far). She would not panic at the death of a few (or many) templars. Orsino is not a hardened soldier.

Modifié par keesio74, 02 mai 2012 - 06:20 .

[thats1evildude]

Aside from the issue of player agency, I think most people have a problem swallowing the notion that this level-headed, likeable senior enchanter would conceal his collaboration with a monster like Quentin, or that he would choose to transform into a monster and turn on Hawke.

On the first point, a lot of people forget how ridiculously powerful the Harvester actually is. It's basically the fantasy equivalent of a nuclear option; even a post-Awakening Warden has trouble taking it down. Imagine if you had a way to create a Harvester from a few fresh corpses; that would be an extremely powerful weapon, albeit one that could only be used under limited circumstances. If you had to deal with a zealot with Meredith on a daily basis, wouldn't you want any edge you could get in the eventuality of a confrontation, even if it meant partnering with a complete monster like Quentin?

Secondly, I think too many people misinterpret that stage of the battle as a decisive victory. The templars have been beaten, the mages have been saved, blah blah blah. But Meredith is still alive and she still has a large number of templars with her. Even if they beat her, the survivors will still have to go on the run. Orsino knows this, and coupled with the sight of so many of his charges lying dead, it drives him into a total despair.

He doesn't turn into the Harvester because he thinks it will help. He turns into the Harvester with the intention of taking Meredith with him, even if that means killing every last single person remaining in the Gallows. Hawke is just collateral damage.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[Tenshi]

yes yes, orsino said that there is still perhaps a chance if hawke is on their side. and than he turned to ridicilous harvester who fighted hawke and no templars.
tell me more about how this make sense mage fanboys

[keesio74]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

yes yes, orsino said that there is still perhaps a chance if hawke is on their side. and than he turned to ridicilous harvester who fighted hawke and no templars.
tell me more about how this make sense mage fanboys

Go study history. See the many military examples of where:

a) leader of army that is winning panics with a dumb move
inexperienced military leader (like orsino) does a panic move despite superior forces and positioning
c) experienced general (like meredith) takes advantage of inexperienced general (like orsino)

Heck, just look at sports if not military. Do you know how many examples there are of a team that is winning doing some boneheaded move out of sheer panic which is called a "rookie mistake"? It's called a rookie mistake because it is expected from someone who is inexperienced in the situation and is more apt to panic and screw up. You know... rookie... someone who is inexperienced... like Orsino leading a military battle?

As they say... hindsight is always 20/20. It is easy to play "arm chair" quarterback than when you are actually in the midst of battle with chaos all around you. Harder to keep your composure there then in the safety of your room sitting on your couch with controller in your hand.

Modifié par keesio74, 02 mai 2012 - 07:18 .

[Tenshi]

keesio74 
so basicly you are saying: when something bad happens to mage he immediately wets his pants and turns into huge meat golem or abomination. yeah, you are right. good thing most of them are locked up.

Modifié par xxx2emo4Uxxx, 02 mai 2012 - 07:26 .