65 réponses à ce sujet

[keesio74]

Did you not play the game?. As you saw, tons of mages panicked and turned to blood magic. That is why you fight so many demons at the end.

But Orsino's panic was less of because mages were getting hurt (though it was a factor). He panicked more because he was thrust into a role he could not handle. He is no general.

[TEWR]

Orsino panicked because the devs wanted another boss. That's actually why he was made into a boss.

[keesio74]

If that is true, then that is friggin sad. I dislike boss fights. I think many of them are ridiculous.

[thats1evildude]

From what I understand, Orsino was always intended as Quentin's secret supporter, but the player could choose to forgive him for his part in Leandra's death. It was always going to be a player punch; they just changed it to an inevitable boss fight.

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

This would make him a very poor character with no spine at all if he panics in the final fight as you think he does. Some one who earns that position normally has to have leadership capicity to get there I think. And take his responsibilities. Or am I heading in the wrong direction here?

Orsino held his cool up until the point that another mage's actions turned him into a wanted apostate and Meredith slaughtered most of the mages under his care. Is it really so shocking that the man had a meltdown?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 mai 2012 - 08:28 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

From what I understand, Orsino was always intended as Quentin's secret supporter, but the player could choose to forgive him for his part in Leandra's death. It was always going to be a player punch; they just changed it to an inevitable boss fight.

Correct.

It's why I'm not a fan of gameplay taking precedence over story. They had their other boss fight already present, so why force every player to play it?

[keesio74]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

I see your point. But (sorry, have one) although Orsino isn't a soldier/general he still is 'the first' in the circle. And because of his involvement with DuPuis he did things that he knew where not something he was supposed to do in the first place (involvement in blood magic). This would make him a very poor character with no spine at all if he panics in the final fight as you think he does. Some one who earns that position normally has to have leadership capicity to get there I think. And take his responsibilities. Or am I heading in the wrong direction here?

Yes Orsino is the "first". He's in charge of the circle. And I'm sure he's real good and comfortable in managing the circle, learning about magic and advocating for mages. But his main role is academic and political. Not military. Not leading mages into a battle against an army out to wipe them out. He's not very comfortable with it and it has nothing to do with him being a competent first enchanter. If you ever watched Aliens 2, remember that scene where the guy in charge (goreman?) is someone who never really led men in real combat but scored real high in simulations? And when real sh*t hit the fan he panicked and froze up while his men were dying. And he was supposed to be a military leader. Ripley had to take control since goreman was mentally AWOL and give the orders to save the rest of the squad. Even though goreman was a military leader, he was green to real combat and out of his element and froze. Imagine someone who is not even military but an academic leader like Orsino. Now this example was not so fair because goreman is military and choked. Orsino is not even trained for this. It's one thing to be a leader, but another to lead in something that is way beyond your expertise.

[Jonathan Seagull]

I mostly agree with that. I don't think either Orsino's or Meredith's actions are inherently nonsensical. I just think the game could have done a better job, particularly with Orsino, of developing the whys.

Back to the more general topic, I was also thinking that another reason Act II is often looked at as the highlight of the game is because there are multiple outcomes for several of the major players. The Arishok and Petrice can both live or die. And Isabela, though a companion, also has multiple possibilities. In terms of gameplay, the choice with her may be more important than the one with Anders, simply because the one with Anders is almost at the end of the game. But for Isabela, there is another whole act of content that you may or may not see.

[thesnake777]

Something that i never fully understood whats how Orsino could even become the harvester. From what I remember the way they are made is using Carigans machine that turns people of flesh into golems. Granted blood magic is a component. However it required more then just blood magic and this research was lost in the deep roads. They also did it by accident. So how could Orsino even do it?

[keesio74]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@ Keesio in response to your reply; I really do see your point and I understand your substantiation there but this is something that you think but is't confirmed by the game. I even think that that can be very plausible indeed. Please take my reply to @thats1evildude together with this reply.

Yup, understood. Until someone from bioware says otherwise, it is all just our personal opinions. I'm not saying i'm definitely right, just that I don't think it is complete nonsense that Orsino did what he did with a pro-mage Hawke as others seem to indicate. Anyway it's an interesting debate.

[thats1evildude]

thesnake777 wrote...

Something that i never fully understood whats how Orsino could even become the harvester. From what I remember the way they are made is using Caridin's machine that turns people of flesh into golems. Granted blood magic is a component. However it required more then just blood magic and this research was lost in the deep roads. They also did it by accident. So how could Orsino even do it?

The first Harvester was NOT created with the Anvil of the Void. In fact, that was the whole point of Amgarrak's research: to discover a new way of creating golems.

It's not so weird when you consider that "Leandra" was herself a kind of flesh golem not unlike the Harvester.

[Jonathan Seagull]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...
@JonathanSeagull just out of curiousity: Petrice always died in my playthroughs. What did you do to let her live?

Only characters with an aggressive dominant tone have the option. When Ser Varnell kidnaps the Qunari delegates, an aggressive Hawke can side with him and fight the Qunari instead. Then when Seamus is killed, you have the option of supporting Petrice. In that case, you'll fight the Qunari who show up and Petrice will survive. She can be found in the chantry in Act III, though I'm not sure if she was supposed to be there when it explodes.

I think, due in part to the fact that it seems like a minority of players have done it, that it's a pretty neat possibility.

Modifié par Jonathan Seagull, 02 mai 2012 - 11:39 .

[Jonathan Seagull]

I actually don't remember if it affects it. However, I'm pretty sure that in my only game that I've done it, I also dueled the Arishok (after refusing to hand over Isabela).

[Silfren]

keesio74 wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

The end fight at the Gallows has allways struck me as weird. Meredith I can understand; but the fight with Orsino when playing pro mage didn't make any sense to me.

Like I mentioned in another post, I CAN understand Orsino turing either way. Even pro mage. Orsino is not a soldier. he is more an academic. So when the real fight begins and he sees death around him and the prospect of mages dying, he panics. Even though you win the first round, he still panics from the chaos. You see that in real life. People who panic, even if they had the upper hand. History is littered with examples of "if only so and so general didn't panic and realized he had the upper hand, they would have won the war". Meredith is a hardened soldier. She would understand there is a cost for war (though she would go too far). She would not panic at the death of a few (or many) templars. Orsino is not a hardened soldier.

I completely agree with you about Orsino, though I wish his giving-in to despair had been a bit less abrupt.  It does come across more as a consciously-made decision on his part than a sudden, hysterical panic. 

However, I can see Meredith's reaction as well. It isn't at all that she is suddenly giving in to panic, but that she sees blood magic and rogue mages everywhere.  This is plausible enough even without the idol; she was depicted throughout the game as being extremely paranoid toward mages and their possible supporters.  Granted, it's a little more plausible if Hawke is a mage herself, but still. 

[Urzon]

keesio74 wrote...

Like I mentioned in another post, I CAN understand Orsino turing either way. Even pro mage. Orsino is not a soldier. he is more an academic. So when the real fight begins and he sees death around him and the prospect of mages dying, he panics. Even though you win the first round, he still panics from the chaos. You see that in real life. People who panic, even if they had the upper hand. History is littered with examples of "if only so and so general didn't panic and realized he had the upper hand, they would have won the war". Meredith is a hardened soldier. She would understand there is a cost for war (though she would go too far). She would not panic at the death of a few (or many) templars. Orsino is not a hardened soldier.

I would be able to understand this if it weren't for the Qunari Invasion in Act II. The Qunari were killing and capturing everyone around him. They even killed his charges that he was trying to protect, but even after all that; he was able to think with a level head. He came up with the plan to sneak Hawke and Meredith into the Viscount's Office, and he went into battle alone and killed a bunch of qunari before retreating to make them chase him.

He may not be a soldier, but he was still able to think clearly and calmly after the death of his mages and during the chaos that was happening around him.

[thesnake777]

thats1evildude wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

Something that i never fully understood whats how Orsino could even become the harvester. From what I remember the way they are made is using Caridin's machine that turns people of flesh into golems. Granted blood magic is a component. However it required more then just blood magic and this research was lost in the deep roads. They also did it by accident. So how could Orsino even do it?

The first Harvester was NOT created with the Anvil of the Void. In fact, that was the whole point of Amgarrak's research: to discover a new way of creating golems.

It's not so weird when you consider that "Leandra" was herself a kind of flesh golem not unlike the Harvester.

I was talking about the machine in the golems dlc. if i remeber correctly carigan had started the research into making golems out of flesh but had scrapped the plans and went with stone golems. The mage and dawrf at the head of the team in amgarrak assembled the macine desigin and were trying to finsh what carigan had started. they made the first Harvester by accident and it slaughtered the team (If im remebering the codex entries correctly it has been a while) 
as for leandrea yea i guess you could look at it that way but I feel like that is a completey different process. I mean Quentin pulled more of a frankenstein thing with leandrea. While the harvester was something else.
 

[thesnake777]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

Something that i never fully understood whats how Orsino could even become the harvester. From what I remember the way they are made is using Carigans machine that turns people of flesh into golems. Granted blood magic is a component. However it required more then just blood magic and this research was lost in the deep roads. They also did it by accident. So how could Orsino even do it?

As I understand it he corresponded with DuPuis and DuPuis used to do research with the one who abducted Hawke's mother (sorry forgot his name). Orsino even provided books to him to help him from the library.

Yea i caught that little cominet about quinetin and then understood the letter we find in his place ment (I was not amused) 
However making a Harvestor was complicated and in golems it was done by accident, and in secret I think. So how could these guys learn about the process? (not to mention they needed that machine in golems to do it, the one with the different colored lights or whatever)

[keesio74]

Urzon wrote...


I would be able to understand this if it weren't for the Qunari Invasion in Act II. The Qunari were killing and capturing everyone around him. They even killed his charges that he was trying to protect, but even after all that; he was able to think with a level head. He came up with the plan to sneak Hawke and Meredith into the Viscount's Office, and he went into battle alone and killed a bunch of qunari before retreating to make them chase him.

He may not be a soldier, but he was still able to think clearly and calmly after the death of his mages and during the chaos that was happening around him.

In Act 2, he fought bravely against the Qunari. But he was not in charge of repelling the Qunari attack. Meredith was. Now granted he had his own ideas on how things should be done and fought with Meredith, but she was the lead (unless the champion took over).

It is a big deal to be part of a group (even as a team leader of that part) vs being responsible for the whole group. Orsino may have been leading mages into combat in act 2 but he knew he had a load of Templars and the knight-commander with him in the fight. And I assume Meredith was the one really giving out the orders on the overall counter-attack. Orsino just worried about his mages and their part. At the end of the game, it was ALL ON HIM trying to hold back an army whose goal was to slaughter every one of his kind. Really he should have given the champion the option to take full control and put all his trust in him and just worried about taking orders from him.

Modifié par keesio74, 03 mai 2012 - 01:56 .

[Jonathan Seagull]

thesnake777 wrote...
However making a Harvestor was complicated and in golems it was done by accident, and in secret I think. So how could these guys learn about the process? (not to mention they needed that machine in golems to do it

I did always think it was strange that Orsino was able to turn himself into a Harvester, or something that is very similar. Though in truth, I never really understood where that squirrelly little monster inside was supposed to come from, either with Orsino or the ones in Amgarrak. Or maybe I've just forgotten.