65 réponses à ce sujet

[thesnake777]

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...
However making a Harvestor was complicated and in golems it was done by accident, and in secret I think. So how could these guys learn about the process? (not to mention they needed that machine in golems to do it

I did always think it was strange that Orsino was able to turn himself into a Harvester, or something that is very similar. Though in truth, I never really understood where that squirrelly little monster inside was supposed to come from, either with Orsino or the ones in Amgarrak. Or maybe I've just forgotten.

If i remember corectly the squirlly thing is part of the larger compenent. The codex of the heads of the team mentioned how the head of the flesh golem detached itself and ran off during the expermint. The team in golems were really working blind in the whole thing. So the body is just a suit for the squirrly thing im guessing.

[Face of Evil]

thesnake777 wrote...

I was talking about the machine in the golems dlc. if i remeber correctly carigan had started the research into making golems out of flesh but had scrapped the plans and went with stone golems. The mage and dawrf at the head of the team in amgarrak assembled the macine desigin and were trying to finsh what carigan had started. they made the first Harvester by accident and it slaughtered the team (If im remebering the codex entries correctly it has been a while) 
as for leandrea yea i guess you could look at it that way but I feel like that is a completey different process. I mean Quentin pulled more of a frankenstein thing with leandrea. While the harvester was something else.

No, Caridin never looked into using flesh as the building material for his golems. The research team at Amgarrak did that because they lacked the metal and stone to try to make conventional golems, so they figured, hey, these dirty Casteless are living pretty useless lives, so we might as well use them instead.

The researchers at Amgarrak also made the mistake of substituting a Fade spirit for an actual person's soul.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 03 mai 2012 - 07:06 .

[Jonathan Seagull]

thesnake777 wrote...
If i remember corectly the squirlly thing is part of the larger compenent. The codex of the heads of the team mentioned how the head of the flesh golem detached itself and ran off during the expermint. The team in golems were really working blind in the whole thing. So the body is just a suit for the squirrly thing im guessing.

Ah, that's right. Thanks. I've only actually played Golems once. Nevertheless, my reaction to that part of DA2 remains "Dammit, Orsino."

[Sparse]

The interesting thing I've noticed from restarting DA2 is that my most recent DA:O save (from a couple of months ago) imports with what happened to Morrigan in Witch Hunt listed on the plot summary and the older ones don't. Hadn't noticed that before.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Orsino panicked because the devs wanted another boss. That's actually why he was made into a boss.

Be this as it may, Orsino's panic does have plausible explanations via the story and not just as a gameplay mechanic the devs threw in, and we kind of have to deal with it from a story perspective, since it is actually part of the story now, regardless of the non-story reasons it was put in.

[Silfren]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

This would make him a very poor character with no spine at all if he panics in the final fight as you think he does. Some one who earns that position normally has to have leadership capicity to get there I think. And take his responsibilities. Or am I heading in the wrong direction here?

So what?  The lore already establishes that Orsino didn't get his position based on his merit, but because no one else wanted the job. 

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

This would make him a very poor character with no spine at all if he panics in the final fight as you think he does. Some one who earns that position normally has to have leadership capicity to get there I think. And take his responsibilities. Or am I heading in the wrong direction here?

So what?  The lore already establishes that Orsino didn't get his position based on his merit, but because no one else wanted the job. 

The lore also establishes that he researched a former First Enchanter that surprisingly had the same mindset as him when it came to the Templars. And by mindset I mean everything prior to his "insanity".

The lore also establishes that he's a fairly competent leader during Act II, considering he took on Qunari all by himself and was the one that proposed a decent strategy in order to enter the Keep. And let's not forget that while he was saddened by Mages under his wing dying, he didn't break down and go Harvestino on the Qunari and Templars.

Plus, he gives a rallying speech to his Mages, knowing full well what lay in store for them.

Despite not being officially appointed to the position, the game goes out of its way to say that he was fit for the position.

And then we get a craptastic boss fight for the sake of a boss fight. Orsino deserves a better ending. Hell, DAII deserves a better everything.

Silfren wrote....

Be this as it may, Orsino's panic does have plausible explanations via the story and not just as a gameplay mechanic the devs threw in, and we kind of have to deal with it from a story perspective, since it is actually part of the story now, regardless of the non-story reasons it was put in

From a Templar perspective, it is plausible.

But I can never see it as such from a pro-mage perspective. I'm not against him being a boss, but it should be at the player's discretion and for pro-mage people not as a Harvester if he's fought. Just as a very powerful Force Mage, IMO.

I mean hell, Bioware couldn't have made it dependant on how many Mages die in the endgame? That would've made it better, if the mages we couldn't save influenced his state of mind.

They already had this mechanic in Origins, where the number of people saved in Redcliffe directly affected what happened. If everyone lived, you got a reward. If some people died, they died and you didn't get a reward.

When gameplay trumps a plausible story, I find it to be just bad.

Face of Evil wrote...

No, Caridin never looked into using flesh as the building material for his golems. The research team at Amgarrak did that because they lacked the metal and stone to try to make conventional golems, so they figured, hey, these dirty Casteless are living pretty useless lives, so we might as well use them instead.

The researchers at Amgarrak also made the mistake of substituting a Fade spirit for an actual person's soul.

Indeed, the Harvester at Amgarrak was an original -- and ******-poor -- creation made by the Dwarves after the loss of Caridin's Golems.

Gaider's also gone on record to say that the transmutation of flesh and demonic possession is what created the endgame Harvester. I assume the flesh transmutation killed Orsino and then a demon stepped in to take control.

Different means, same end result. Fade-possessed corpse construct.

Never mind the fact that I have no ****ing clue how Quentin discovered a ritual that can make a person into a Harvester, when it's an irreversible process.

EDIT: You know -- and this isn't in response to anyone in particular, but rather to the thread itself -- I could dissect a multitude of problems with DAII's storyline, where actions happen because the plot demanded it despite the fact that past actions might not support it happening.

One that immediately comes to mind is how no investigation into the Kirkwall Killer -- A.K.A the White Lily Killer -- was launched until Emeric died. Not by the Templars or the City Guard until such a thing happened.

When in the past, Hawke faced down demons in the Old Foundry and told Emeric about that. The fact that the Templars didn't launch an investigation into that area after Emeric told his superiors about it is either a damnation to the Templars or a damnation to the story and writers.

Personally, I see it as a damnation to both.

And considering Aveline could've been a witness to those demons, it's also a damnation on her character as well.

I'm not saying Quentin should've been apprehended or that Leandra's death should've never happened. He should've still been out there and Leandra's death was necessary. But to see no action taken to remove the threat -- even if it never succeeded -- until Emeric died was just bad.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 mai 2012 - 06:29 .

[Face of Evil]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The lore also establishes that he's a fairly competent leader during Act II, considering he took on Qunari all by himself and was the one that proposed a decent strategy in order to enter the Keep. And let's not forget that while he was saddened by Mages under his wing dying, he didn't break down and go Harvestino on the Qunari and Templars.

Let's be clear on two things: first, the qunari weren't intent on slaughtering all of the mages, though they might have killed a few of them. Also, if the mages successfully defeated the qunari, they weren't automatically reduced to becoming fugitives. Life went on after the qunari battle, but even if the mages somehow held off the templars, they were now unwilling apostates thanks to Anders' actions.

Second, you frame this as Orsino pulling a freak-out on Hawke and Hawke alone. It's quite clear that his intention is to go "Harvestino" on the remaining templars as well, along with Meredith.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

 Hell, DAII deserves a better everything.

It certainly doesn't deserve all this constant grousing. <_<

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Indeed, the Harvester at Amgarrak was an original -- and ******-poor -- creation made by the Dwarves after the loss of Caridin's Golems.

******-poor? Considering how it puts other golems to shame, that's now how 'd describe it.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Never mind the fact that I have no ****ing clue how Quentin discovered a ritual that can make a person into a Harvester, when it's an irreversible process.

Come now, the man figured out how to bring the dead back to life. We accept that he figured out how to create one kind of flesh golem; is it really such a stretch that he figured out how to create another similar type of construct in the course of his research?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

One that immediately comes to mind is how no investigation into the Kirkwall Killer -- A.K.A the White Lily Killer -- was launched until Emeric died. Not by the Templars or the City Guard until such a thing happened.

Emeric himself said that he pressured the guards and the templars into further investigation, but they turned up nothing.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

When in the past, Hawke faced down demons in the Old Foundry and told Emeric about that. The fact that the Templars didn't launch an investigation into that area after Emeric told his superiors about it is either a damnation to the Templars or a damnation to the story and writers.

It's unfortunate that they didn't include one line of dialogue from Emeric stating "We searched the foundry and found nothing." But really, we're not dealing with the likes of CSI: Kirkwall here. Medieval guardsmen are used to dealing with pickpockets and street gangs — serial killers are a relatively modern concept. Not that they haven't always existed, but the public's awareness of ritualistic murders is still fairly new. It's not something they were prepared to deal with, especially in a city as dangerous as Kirkwall where there might be a thousand reasons for unexplained disappearances. Depending on his personality, even Hawke can sound eager to dismiss Emeric's investigation as unrelated incidents, and he saw the demons firsthand.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 06 mai 2012 - 08:44 .

[Reznore57]

There were inestigations about the murders ,when you go to Dupuis Estate , there's a letter from Meredith who apologizes for the trouble.
The thing is Emeric annoys some nobles, nobles complains to templars chief , templars chief wants to rule Kirkwall so needs noble approval , templars put pressure on Emeric and City guard to stop .

As for Orsino , well , there were reason for him to do what he did , it's called "nothing left to loose".
The right of annulment means every mage will be put to the sword , in the end , Hawke and friends made it out alive because Templars decided to let them go.
What i don't like about Orsino "outburst" is : we already had too much crazy mages .
So it cheapens his actions , instead of being surprised , it was more like "What?Another crazy blood mage?!/facepalm."

[TEWR]

Face of Evil wrote...

Let's be clear on two things: first, the qunari weren't intent on slaughtering all of the mages, though they might have killed a few of them. Also, if the mages successfully defeated the qunari, they weren't automatically reduced to becoming fugitives. Life went on after the qunari battle, but even if the mages somehow held off the templars, they were now unwilling apostates thanks to Anders' actions.

More from an unjust Annulment really. And I say it's a state of being that they should be proud of, considering they know the truth and it will be a condemnation against the Templars and further the argument that Mages deserve better treatment and more rights.

Second, you frame this as Orsino pulling a freak-out on Hawke and Hawke alone. It's quite clear that his intention is to go "Harvestino" on the remaining templars as well, along with Meredith.

Whatever his intention was, it does not mesh well with what little character of him we were given. We know for a fact that he holds the same mindset as the first First Enchanter of Kirkwall's Circle.

Additionally, even Gaider himself has said that they wish that they put in more sane mages, considering the game's major Mage characters all go insane. Those that don't are hardly important at all to the grand scheme, save for Feynriel.

Even Mike Laidlaw said that Act III was a failure due to time constraints, and said that it felt railroady as a result, wherein he then apologized for it saying it wasn't ideal.

Face of Evil wrote...

******-poor? Considering how it puts other golems to shame, that's now how 'd describe it.

The point of golems is to have a living siege weapon that you can control, so yes it's a ******-poor golem.

Not to mention it's ugly as sin.

Face of Evil wrote...

Come now, the man figured out how to bring the dead back to life. We accept that he figured out how to create one kind of flesh golem; is it really such a stretch that he figured out how to create another similar type of construct in the course of his research?

Yes. Because they are two completely different flesh golems that use two completely different sets of rituals.

One requires pieces of the people as well as a trinket of theirs, through which Quentin binds a demon into the trinket.

The other requires Quentin to have used his own soul and body as fodder for demons in order to figure out the intricacies of the Harvester ritual, from which there is no return.

You can't make a detailed report on how to transmute your flesh if you don't know how to transmute your flesh. If he knew how to do it to other people -- though I highly doubt that Quentin could defeat what a Tevinter Magister and many Dwarves couldn't -- then Orsino would've just done it on other people, be they corpses or no.

Face of Evil wrote...

Emeric himself said that he pressured the guards and the templars into further investigation, but they turned up nothing.

I just played through this and he says that the Templars believed it a matter for the city guard. The Templars didn't help him in the least.

The City Guard didn't believe it was worth investigating either, when Aveline could've seen not only the demons and the hand -- which she acknowledges in Act I as something that does need to be investigated, but then contradicts in Act II by saying it's not important -- but also have heard that Emeric took Mharen's phylactery to the foundry and that's where it stopped.

And even if it was an isolated murder, that doesn't mean you don't investigate. Isolated or connected, murder is still murder and it should be investigated.

And she can't say what her Guardsmen did at Dupuis' estate, considering that despite her best efforts corruption still existed within the guard. For all we know, they were bribed by Dupuis to look the other way and he said he'd report the Captain to Meredith. Short of her having been there -- and she wasn't -- she can't say with absolute certainty that the Guard did their job.

Let's not forget that in Act I you can hear from Ghyslain that Jethann "sent" Ninette lilies. But you can also hear that Mharen was sent lilies from an unknown suitor.

It would be a coincidence only if they were both sent lilies but only one had vanished. For both to have been sent lilies and for both to have vanished is a pretty clear sign that they are, in fact, linked together to the same case.

Then, in Act 2 there's the fact that Gascard knew two of the murdered women and made inquiries about the others. For him to be playing wannabe Guardsmen, that points to him hiding something. You don't make inquiries about other missing women if you don't have something to hide.

If he just told us about the knowing two murdered women, I'd concede it was coincidence to think he was involved, from a non-metagaming standpoint. But when Gascard is known to have asked about other missing women, then he knows something the Guardsmen don't and should be pressed for such information. Yet Aveline is willing to persist in her belief that Emeric is wrong, when common sense does point to Emeric being on the right path.

The Templars didn't want to do their job when they were told that demons were at the foundry where Mharen's trail ended -- which common sense points to an apostate maleficar being the cause of, seeing as Kirkwall's citizens don't know about the thin Veil. Only a few know, and that's years after Act I -- and instead just said Emeric wanted one last shot at glory. Plus, Hawke and company saw Quentin fleeing the scene of the crime. That's also cause to investigate the Foundry with Templars and Guardsmen. He is -- from how they would see it -- either a potential witness to what happened to Mharen or involved in the crime. For the Guardsmen to think otherwise is just folly.

Remember this is the woman that possibly saw the killer fleeing the scene of the crime. And she wants to ignore it? Say that Emeric is basing everything on conjecture? Yea okay Aveline, how'd you become Captain again? Oh right... you followed up on a hunch. You followed up on your speculation. And it actually turned up something!

While Jeven's actions were suspicious, she had no certifiable proof at the time she suspected him that he was abusing his position. The same holds true for Gascard. While no tangible proof existed, Emeric knew he was hiding something.

Even Aveline herself says in Hightown, day or night, that the nobility guard their secrets well. So she knows full well what they do. Yet she believes that because of one raid on the mansion that didn't reveal Gascard's secrets, he's innocent.

She's a hypocrite. To Isabela it's acceptable because that is her character. But to her job it isn't. She's a ****** poor captain of the guard and should be demoted IMO.

It isn't until Emeric winds up dead that she says "Oh ****...". And even when a letter is sent out, not penned by Hawke, the Templars continue their false belief of "Well, Emeric's just a foolish old man".

Because if someone's claiming to be Hawke and trying to lure Emeric out of the Gallows, Emeric's the one who's acting suspicious. Because that makes sense.

With the testimony Gascard gave -- possibly in front of Aveline -- that's already enough to support the need for an investigation. While he's suspicious and should certainly not be believed at face value, she should still take that information into consideration and follow up on it. Reports of anyone that bought white lilies or sent them to noble families.

Hawke has influence with Aveline. Hawke should've launched an investigation through Aveline upon becoming a noble because she's willing to aid her friends if they ask her for help. She lets Isabela slide sometimes, changes guard patrols so Fenris won't be caught, etc.

In the end though, Aveline is only part of the problem.

When the investigation does finally begin, Hawke doesn't play a part in it. Hell, he doesn't even warn his own mother! There's a killer roaming the streets and he can't take the time to say "Hey mom, there's a killer out there that preys on single women, sometimes from noble families. Be careful okay?"

The White Lily Killer of Kirkwall is a menace and Hawke is possibly at risk if a female. Bethany might also be at risk. Leandra might be at risk.

If you're in a position of power to help change the city for the better because there's a clear threat to you and your family, you act on it. You don't hope that it goes away or leaves you alone.

Bah. I think what gets me more then the rather poorly held together quest arc is that Hawke couldn't have taken a proactive stance against the serial killer in the interim years between Act I and Act II, especially if he said he "wouldn't let the bastard get away with it".

Face of Evil wrote...

Depending on his personality, even Hawke can sound eager to dismiss Emeric's investigation as unrelated incidents, and he saw the demons firsthand.

Which makes no sense, if you think about it. Any time demons are involved and there are mutilated limbs about, investigations should be pursued.

What do you think would've happened if in Enemies Among Us, Hawke just said "Well... this investigation doesn't seem like it's turning up anything since you tried questioning the girls at the brothel, so I think it's not worth pursuing"?

Hawke's investigated less on even lesser details. He could've investigated a wife that seemingly ran away from her husband. He could've investigated a mine whose workers stopped working, when their boss comes off as an ass that doesn't care about his workers really.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 mai 2012 - 04:14 .

[Face of Evil]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

More from an unjust Annulment really. And I say it's a state of being that they should be proud of, considering they know the truth and it will be a condemnation against the Templars and further the argument that Mages deserve better treatment and more rights.[/QUOTE]

Even if they felt that way — at least some of those mages were probably loyalists, pulled into a war with the Chantry that they did not want — that hardly makes up for the hardships of a life on a run. As well, the templars would pursue the Kirkwall mages zealously; given that a full year passes before the mage rebellion occurs, any survivors from the massacre in Kirkwall would likely be hunted down by then.

Anders might as well have killed all the mages in Kirkwall himself, as their chances for survival are next to nothing.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Whatever his intention was, it does not mesh well with what little character of him we were given. We know for a fact that he holds the same mindset as the first First Enchanter of Kirkwall's Circle.[/QUOTE]

What does that even mean, "the same mindset as the First Enchanter of Kirkwall's Circle?" Kirkwall's Circle is watched by a fanatic looking for any excuse to slaughter them all. Kirkwall's Circle is based in a city where the Veil is razor-thin and where blood mages are operating freely within their ranks.

In my mind, the mindset of the First Enchanter of Kirkwall's Circle is that of a man under immense pressure who willingly turns a blind eye to corruption in his own ranks.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even Mike Laidlaw said that Act III was a failure due to time constraints, and said that it felt railroady as a result, wherein he then apologized for it saying it wasn't ideal.[/QUOTE]

I never said they didn't make mistakes. I'm arguing hat Orsino's freak-out is the massive character derailment you make it out to be.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes. Because they are two completely different flesh golems that use two completely different sets of rituals.

One requires pieces of the people as well as a trinket of theirs, through which Quentin binds a demon into the trinket.

The other requires Quentin to have used his own soul and body as fodder for demons in order to figure out the intricacies of the Harvester ritual, from which there is no return.[/QUOTE]

They're both constructs cobbled together from body parts. And really, you're assuming that Quentin had to use his own soul and body as a component in the ritual; he was obviously suicidal there.

The Harvester may not be controllable, but if you unleashed one in a population centre where you didn't care about survivors …

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

 If he knew how to do it to other people -- though I highly doubt that Quentin could defeat what a Tevinter Magister and many Dwarves couldn't -- then Orsino would've just done it on other people, be they corpses or no.[/QUOTE]

The researchers at Amgarrak didn't really understand what they had created until it turned on them, and Quentin was an extremely powerful blood mage. Also, as I said before, Orsino was clearly suicidal.

But you're still assuming that Quentin needed to cast the ritua at some pointl in order for Orsino to use it. in our world, virtually all technology started off as mere theory in the minds of its inventors; we didn't build nuclear reactors by gluing together random bits of machinery and plutonium. Why shouldn't magic be the same?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The City Guard didn't believe it was worth investigating either, when Aveline could've seen not only the demons and the hand -- which she acknowledges in Act I as something that does need to be investigated, but then contradicts in Act II by saying it's not important -- but also have heard that Emeric took Mharen's phylactery to the foundry and that's where it stopped.

And even if it was an isolated murder, that doesn't mean you don't investigate. Isolated or connected, murder is still murder and it should be investigated.[/QUOTE]

I'm just saying that the guards were incapable of seeing the connections between the crimes.

Here's what the guards, Aveline and Hawke would have known at the end of Act 1 based on Emeric's evidence:

1) At least two women have gone missing and a hand belonging to one of the victims was discovered. But murders frequently occur in Kirkwall, and Quentin was at least careful enough to choose women who apparently would not be missed (or whose disappearance would be chalked up to other factors).

2) The hand was discovered in a foundry where demons were numerous. Again, odd, but it's hardly unusual to encounter demons and abominations in Kirkwall.

3) Two of the victims were sent lillies before they were disappeared. But Ghyslain himself notes that his wife's favourite flowers were lillies, and the woman had several lovers.

None of this evidence really points to a single perpetrator of the crimes, and even if it did, it certainly reveals nothing about his motives.

Nonetheless, Emeric manages to convince the city guard to raid Gascard Dupuis' mansion based on his connections to the missing women (he knew two of them and made inquiries about the third). Their search reveals nothing, and rightfully so, since Gascard isn't actually the real killer. What then? Gascard is a nobleman; they can hardly beat him until he confesses to doing something they're not even sure he's done.

So what then? The guards have no other leads, and given that they have about a thousand other things to worry about, they dismiss the disappearances as isolated incidents. The lillies are an odd coincidence, but because the idea of a serial killer is a rather modern idea, and I can forgive the city guard for not being able to concieve of the notion of ritualistic slayings.

So Hawke breaks into Gascard's mansion, and depending on how things turn out, Gascard either disappears or Hawke kills him. Emeric is then assassinated, which finally demonstrates to the guard and the templars that someone is behind these killings. But Gascard may be dead and therefore no longer a useful source of information. Depending on what Hawke says, they might even lynch Gascard for the crime.

Now, depending on what point in Act 2 Hawke does that quest, one of three things happens next:

1) A zealot poisons an entire district with the qunari's saar-qamek.
2) A number of guards participate in a conspiracy to kidnap and torture qunari diplomats.
3) Quentin kills Hawke's mother.

In other words, Leandra can go missing very soon after Hawke has his run-in with Gascard and the city devolves rather swiftly into chaos, if it hasn't done so already.

Did they need to do more? Maybe, but there are a lot of extenuating circumstances. On a list of potential threats to Kirkwall, Quentin doesn't even come near the top of the list.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Remember this is the woman that possibly saw the killer fleeing the scene of the crime. And she wants to ignore it?[/QUOTE]

She saw someone at the Foundry flee. It's reasonable to assume that they might be the killer, but it's also reasonable to assume that they might be a random scavenger. Actual police investigations do not end at the first person spotted at the scene of a crime.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even Aveline herself says in Hightown, day or night, that the nobility guard their secrets well. So she knows full well what they do. Yet she believes that because of one raid on the mansion that didn't reveal Gascard's secrets, he's innocent.[/QUOTE]

She also doesn't stop Hawke from kicking in the door to Gascard's mansion and ransacking the place. Or do you think that night-time raid was perfectly legal?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

When the investigation does finally begin, Hawke doesn't play a part in it. Hell, he doesn't even warn his own mother! There's a killer roaming the streets and he can't take the time to say "Hey mom, there's a killer out there that preys on single women, sometimes from noble families. Be careful okay?"[/QUOTE]

Mama Hawke does know about her child's activities. She frequently makes comments about Hawke "getting involved with this business with the templars" or meeting with the Arishok.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The White Lily Killer of Kirkwall is a menace and Hawke is possibly at risk if a female. Bethany might also be at risk. Leandra might be at risk.[/QUOTE]

It's not even clear there IS a White Lilly Killer, not until Hawke hears from Gascard.

Depending on his personality, even Hawke can sound eager to dismiss Emeric's investigation as unrelated incidents, and he saw the demons firsthand.
[/quote]

Which makes no sense, if you think about it. Any time demons are involved and there are mutilated limbs about, investigations should be pursued.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What do you think would've happened if in Enemies Among Us, Hawke just said "Well... this investigation doesn't seem like it's turning up anything since you tried questioning the girls at the brothel, so I think it's not worth pursuing"?[/quote]

But Hawke has a specific goal there: trying to find Keran. Keran has not been found, and since Macha isn't theoretically paying him for NOT finding her brother, he wouldn't just say "No thnx, kbye".

There's a big difference between Tarohne and Quentin. Tarohne is working as part of a group, and Hawke can at least question one of her cronies (Idunna). She also reveals herself when you invade her Sanctuary.

Quentin works alone and goes underground when someone catches on to his trail. It's not even clear that he killed anyone in the three years between Act 1 and Act 2.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 07 mai 2012 - 09:57 .

[TEWR]

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

As well, the templars would pursue the Kirkwall mages zealously; given that a full year passes before the mage rebellion occurs, any survivors from the massacre in Kirkwall would likely be hunted down by then.[/quote]

Doubtful, given the revelations about Meredith that occur at the end.

Unless they plan to give them a guarantee that the Circle's Templars will change, I doubt they're going to hunt them down. Maybe some fanatics will -- that's certain to happen -- but if we're just talking about the Templars as a whole under Cullen then I doubt they'll do anything to the Mages.

[quote]
Anders might as well have killed all the mages in Kirkwall himself, as their chances for survival are next to nothing.[/quote]

His act was more about a principle rather then surviving. To die on your legs rather then live on your knees. He makes a note of this in his Act II quest, saying that it would be better as open warfare where the Mages are at least given an equal shot at winning.

While the Mages didn't ask for it, it goes to show how far the Templars would go and how the Mages should act in such circumstances.


[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

What does that even mean, "the same mindset as the First Enchanter of Kirkwall's Circle?" Kirkwall's Circle is watched by a fanatic looking for any excuse to slaughter them all. Kirkwall's Circle is based in a city where the Veil is razor-thin and where blood mages are operating freely within their ranks.

In my mind, the mindset of the First Enchanter of Kirkwall's Circle is that of a man under immense pressure who willingly turns a blind eye to corruption in his own ranks[/quote]

Read again.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Whatever his intention was, it does not mesh well with what little character of him we were given. We know for a fact that he holds the same mindset as the first First Enchanter of Kirkwall's Circle.[/quote]

Meaning the very first First Enchanter of Kirkwall's Circle. The one that presided over the Mages and represented them when the Gallows was first transformed into a Circle.

See the codex on the Staff of Violation. Orsino's mindset prior to that Harvestino gameplay necessity at the end is exactly the same as First Enchanter Casamira's.

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

I never said they didn't make mistakes. I'm arguing hat Orsino's freak-out is the massive character derailment you make it out to be.[/quote]

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

I find it unnecessary and a character derailment of his character. Even if they wanted it there, there were better ways to go about displaying it.

That's not opinion. That's fact. They could've done it better, even if I think it should never have been there for pro-mage players.

For pro-Templar playthroughs, I was fine with it. It still could've been done better -- Loghain-esque scenes depicting Orsino starting to go mad in front of his charges would've helped -- but it was otherwise fine there.


[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

I'm just saying that the guards were incapable of seeing the connections between the crimes.

Here's what the guards, Aveline and Hawke would have known at the end of Act 1 based on Emeric's evidence:

1) At least two women have gone missing and a hand belonging to one of the victims was discovered. But murders frequently occur in Kirkwall, and Quentin was at least careful enough to choose women who apparently would not be missed (or whose disappearance would be chalked up to other factors).

2) The hand was discovered in a foundry where demons were numerous. Again, odd, but it's hardly unusual to encounter demons and abominations in Kirkwall.

3) Two of the victims were sent lillies before they were disappeared. But Ghyslain himself notes that his wife's favourite flowers were lillies, and the woman had several lovers.

[/quote]

And that Emeric took Mharen's phylactery and it led to the foundry where you fight those same demons. I'm sorry, but if a phylactery of a Loyalist/Aequitarian Mage leads to an old foundry where a severed hand was found and you fight demons there, then something's up.

The Templars are the ones required to investigate there, but the City Guard also has reason to investigate. A Mage disappears, a hand is found where her phylactery stopped dead in its tracks, and demons are fought.

And the Templars claim that it's a matter for the City Guard? That is both incompetence on the part of the majority of Kirkwall's Templars or sheer callousness towards the citizens. The Templars exist -- in theory -- to protect the mages from the populus and themselves and to protect the populus from the dangers magic poses, demons among those dangers.

For point 2, no one in Kirkwall aside from the Band of Three is privy to the thin Veil. Even the Grand Cleric is shocked to hear about demonic involvement regarding Sebastian's family's death, saying that something has happened to thin the Veil. That's the first time Elthina -- who has been Grand Cleric of Kirkwall for 30 years -- finds out about the thin Veil.

The pieces of Kirkwall's past were only put together by the Band of Three. And even then, it's up in the air whether that's ever going to be explored in future content or was just there to "explain" the insane mages we fight and is nothing more than a cheap ploy meant for us to believe Kirkwall is mysterious.

For point 3, yes Ninette slept with many people. But they were all from the Blooming Rose IIRC -- as Jethann states I think -- and Ghyslain says that Jethann sent the lilies. So the logical path in any investigation is to bring up those lilies in conversation with Jethann.

If he says he didn't send them, you ask him if he knows anyone that did. Whether he says yes or no, you question the people at the Blooming Rose that associated with Ninette. If none of them claim to have sent them, then you have cause for even more worry.

You don't stop an investigation because things seem neat. You poke, you prod, and you pry until what seemed neat is ultimately proven to have been nothing more then an elaborate ruse covering up a mess.

Questions need to be asked on anything that is related to a crime.

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

None of this evidence really points to a single perpetrator of the crimes, and even if it did, it certainly reveals nothing about his motives.
[/quote]

The demons in the foundry point to a blood mage being at work. The fact that a man is seen fleeing from the foundry before the demons rise from the ground means that the blood mage is more then likely a man.

His motives -- while unclear at that moment -- can be figured out later. But the fact that he's killing numerous women and there's sufficient evidence to point to it means that a collaboration between the City Guard and Templars is in order so that the perpetrator can be caught.

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

So what then? The guards have no other leads, and given that they have about a thousand other things to worry about, they dismiss the disappearances as isolated incidents. The lillies are an odd coincidence, but because the idea of a serial killer is a rather modern idea, and I can forgive the city guard for not being able to concieve of the notion of ritualistic slayings.[/quote]

I never claimed they should've known that the serial killer was using the body parts for a necromantic ritual. However, Gascard was still the prime suspect after that first "raid". He needed to be questioned further. He's a minor noble with very little clout in Kirkwall -- considering he hails from Orlais and not Kirkwall.

And even if they dismiss them as isolated incidents, they still need to investigate those isolated incidents. Murder is murder.

I don't care if the raid on the mansion turned up nothing. The fact that he's playing junior detective on some women that he knew and others that he inquired about is automatically grounds for the City Guard to suspect he's hiding something, whether the raid turned up anything or not. This isn't metagaming. This is common sense.

We know the foundry that Mharen's hand was found at is suspicous. There should've been City Guard and Templar patrols around that area routinely. There is no disputing this. The Thin Veil in Kirkwall is not known to the populus aside from those dedicated enough to delve into Kirkwall's past. So demonic presence in any place means that the Templars should be helping out.

But to pass it off to the City Guard, claiming it doesn't concern them?

Again, it's incompetence and callousness.

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

In other words, Leandra can go missing very soon after Hawke has his run-in with Gascard and the city devolves rather swiftly into chaos, if it hasn't done so already.

[/quote]

Speculation. You cannot say when quests occurred in a game's timeline. For all we know these quests were weeks apart from one another and the devs didn't want us to have to sit through days and nights of doing nothing.

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...
She saw someone at the Foundry flee. It's reasonable to assume that they might be the killer, but it's also reasonable to assume that they might be a random scavenger. Actual police investigations do not end at the first person spotted at the scene of a crime.[/quote]

Doesn't mean they shouldn't search for him. If they believed he was just a scavenger -- though IIRC he had a Mage staff on his back, lending credence to the notion that he's the apostate killer -- he may have seen something. He may know something.

What he may have been to them is irrelevant to the fact that they should've investigated that foundry and searched for that man.

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

Mama Hawke does know about her child's activities. She frequently makes comments about Hawke "getting involved with this business with the templars" or meeting with the Arishok.[/quote]

Citation needed. I have never once heard anything of the sort.

And just because she knows that Hawke has been meeting with the Arishok or whatever does not mean that she was warned in Act II. It's reasonable to assume such -- IF your claim that she says these things is true, seeing as I've never heard them before -- but is not otherwise stated.

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

It's not even clear there IS a White Lilly Killer, not until Hawke hears from Gascard.
[/quote]

Two women disappear in Act I and both received lilies, one of whom was mutilated at best and killed at worst?

Seems pretty apparent to anyone with a brain.

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

But Hawke has a specific goal there: trying to find Keran. Keran has not been found, and since Macha isn't theoretically paying him for NOT finding her brother, he wouldn't just say "No thnx, kbye".
[/quote]

And at the end of The First Sacrifice, Hawke can claim that he won't let the bastard that did the mutilation to Mharen escape and he'll find him. He declares his new goal.

And yet in Act II, he hasn't even bothered to lift a finger to find the killer until Aveline talks to him about Emeric, seeing as how Emeric was looking for an official sanction by Hawke.

If it had happened and if Hawke had helped in the investigation, Emeric wouldn't have been asking for Hawke to lend his assistance in Act II. Emeric would've already had it.

[quote]Face of Evil wrote...

There's a big difference between Tarohne and Quentin. Tarohne is working as part of a group, and Hawke can at least question one of her cronies (Idunna). She also reveals herself when you invade her Sanctuary[/quote]

My point was that if questioning someone leads nowhere, it doesn't automatically mean that an investigation should be halted. Cullen questioned the workers at the Blooming Rose, but couldn't find anything out. That doesn't mean the investigation no longer had any solid leads.

The City Guard questioned Gascard yet stopped afterwards. It's not even clear that Gascard reported Emeric. Gascard could've just passed it off entirely and Emeric got chewed out because nothing was found on that first moment.

Which I see as likely. The Guards may have said that they didn't find anything -- though how well they searched in the first place is unknown -- and because of that, Emeric got chewed out.

But even so, just because a first line of questioning and searching turned up nothing does not mean that subsequent attempts shouldn't be made.

Had it happened two or three times prior, I would've been fine with it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mai 2012 - 09:46 .

[jack of tears]

Jonathan Seagull wrote...
. Sadly, I'm fairly certain that a pro-mage Hawke can't get rid of both Aveline and Fenris, and I don't believe Carver can be killed of he's still around.

I played a more evil Pro-Mage Hawke and only had Varric, Anders and Merril left at the end of my game. (would have killed Anders, but then I wouldn't have had a full party left to play with)  So, yes it is possible to get rid of Fenris earlier in the game (you can betray him in a certain way, won't spoil further) and then Avaline in the confrontation against the Templars. 

[Jonathan Seagull]

Ooh, really? I'm aware of the Fenris/Danarius thing, but was under the impression that Aveline wouldn't side against you unless Fenris is around and stays with you. So that's not the case? Because I'd love to have a playthrough where I get rid of both.

[vixvicco]

I've played it that many times as well. I agree, you start noticing more, especially when you play in a particular way. Even on my 5th playthrough, I learnt something new. It was interesting! Act 3 for me however, is the most boring. I liked Act 2 better but I notice what you're saying.