629 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

This is a hypothetical question I'd like to pose:  Imagine that it simply were not possible to imprison mages in Circles.  What if they could teleport or walk through walls or become undetectable such that they could easily sneak out from under a guard's nose?

If mages could not be forcibly gathered up and held by the Chantry and Templars what do you think would happen?  Do you think they would be killed or that society would find a way to co-exist with them?  Or something else entirely?

[linkicewolf]

That is a good question, i suppose there could be a chance that society could find a way, but at the same time if mages could walk though walls and that sort, it would also be very dangerous as more people would more likely view them more as "mosnters" that could not be contain and out more likely be more hostile to the mages.

Modifié par linkicewolf, 01 mai 2012 - 11:29 .

[DarkDragon777]

I'm sure plenty of mages can walk through walls. If they leave, they'll either be re-imprisoned or forced to live in solitude, so it's not really an option.

[GavrielKay]

Why would you bother to re-imprison someone who couldn't be held?

Are they really more monstrous if they can't be imprisoned for some reason? Does it matter by what means they can escape?

[linkicewolf]

You can't and thats the problem, as it is human nature to fear something that cannot be control.
Think of it this way, in the real world we lock up someone who would cause harm to others, but what happens if you can't do that? What will happen then? We would have to kill this person to avoid being harm.
If all mages cannot be held in anyway this could lead to killing and mass genocide of mages. which would not be good for the mages and the average person, because we all know that the mages will fight back if something like this would happen.

[dragonflight288]

If enough mages learn how to become shapeshifters, they could turn into spiders and walk down the walls of the tower. Or turn into a bird and fly out a window. Which is why Wynne refers to Morrigan as a maleficar, despite not even being a blood mage. Practicing a magic not recognized by the Circle.

But considering the religious fanaticism the Chantry preaches, and is taken (not just by Templars, Ser Perth, a Knight under Arl Eamon would rather have a useless trinket with the Chantry's symbol on it rather than have enchanted amulets that would actually help him and his men) it would likely lead to the extermination of all mages.

Granted, I'm cynical of anything that has to do with the Chantry. I'm currently replaying Origins, and I just left Lothering. And the Revered Mother of the chantry in Lothering just made me about flip my lid. She pretty much tells us those who come to ask for a blessing traditionally tithe first...using faith to gather funds from refugees who otherwise wouldn't have it. If you tell her you don't have any funds (whether or not that's true) then she'll try to be understanding but she'll also refuse to give the player a blessing whatsoever unless she gets the money.

So yeah....I'm a cynic and I know it. But I have very little hope for those in power within the Chantry to be reasonable about anything they disagree with.

[WhiteKnyght]

GavrielKay wrote...

This is a hypothetical question I'd like to pose:  Imagine that it simply were not possible to imprison mages in Circles.  What if they could teleport or walk through walls or become undetectable such that they could easily sneak out from under a guard's nose?

If mages could not be forcibly gathered up and held by the Chantry and Templars what do you think would happen?  Do you think they would be killed or that society would find a way to co-exist with them?  Or something else entirely?

I think the ending of Dragon Age II and Asunder answer that question.

Long story short: Open season on mages.

[Reznore57]

As the Grey Nayr said , they don't need to teleport or turn into some Super(wo)man.
The circles are ancient hystory.

Mages and templars had a nasty broke up.Plates flying ,fireball throwing , witch hunt mode on...

I don't think mages are gonna end up living peacefully in Thedas.The mages are divided between different fraternities ,they all voted to fight against the templar and the chantry but i guess we will see a lot of division.
Besides what will happen to new mages ?,the circle despite its flaws , provided important teaching about magic , how to avoid demon etc...
If an isolated mage hurt some common folks , without templars ,we might see pretty witch pyre in villages...

And about the chantry , the divine is pro mage.(she's not against the circle exactly but she condem the abuse)And because of that she lost the templars and some of the seekers.

It's really hard to tell what's gonna happen because everything is divided , and everyone have his/her own agenda.

[keesio74]

GavrielKay wrote...

If mages could not be forcibly gathered up and held by the Chantry and Templars what do you think would happen?  Do you think they would be killed or that society would find a way to co-exist with them?  Or something else entirely?

One possibility is:
http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Imperium

[Dave of Canada]

Kill em all.

[Cigne]

If mages could walk through walls, I wonder how many ways they would find to abuse that power, too?

Seriously, though, it would most likely devolve into the Imperium, or a policy of execution when the magic first manifests in the individual.

[GavrielKay]

I would like to think that in the absence of the current "easy out" of just locking mages up, that society would be forced to come up with ways to live side by side with mages.

Other cultures manage it, so we know that it doesn't inevitably lead to something like Tevinter. Remeber Tevinter isn't even pleasant for most mages. It is a constant struggle to survive and get ahead. I'm not at all convinced that all mages are eager for that.

Rather look at the Dalish clans, where even with mages technically in power there is a fair bit of equality and certainly not overt oppression. There is only one keeper in each clan too, and several mages who are just clan members from what I can tell.

I guess I was just thinking that the whole "locking them up" thing was an in between solution - it allowed everyone to pretend there isn't really a problem. Normals can mostly ignore mages and countries can still have them around to send against invading armies.

But if that expedient was removed, I wonder if the rulers would really want to lose them as a force against enemies by killing them all on sight?

[Silfren]

keesio74 wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

If mages could not be forcibly gathered up and held by the Chantry and Templars what do you think would happen?  Do you think they would be killed or that society would find a way to co-exist with them?  Or something else entirely?

One possibility is:
http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Imperium

For cripes' sake.  the whole "free mages can and will only lead to another Tevinter" meme is getting old.  And rather than bringing up a horse that is as obvious as it is dead, how about exploring OTHER possibilities, which I can assure you was kind of the point of this thread.

[keesio74]

Silfren wrote...


For cripes' sake.  the whole "free mages can and will only lead to another Tevinter" meme is getting old.  And rather than bringing up a horse that is as obvious as it is dead, how about exploring OTHER possibilities, which I can assure you was kind of the point of this thread.

No, the question was:

GavrielKay wrote...
If mages could not be forcibly gathered up and held by the Chantry and
Templars what do you think would happen?  Do you think they would be
killed or that society would find a way to co-exist with them?  Or
something else entirely

As in what do I think will happen? What do I think? And that is one of the possibilities I think. The OP did not post with any conditions as far as I can read.

[Silfren]

keesio74 wrote...

Silfren wrote...


For cripes' sake.  the whole "free mages can and will only lead to another Tevinter" meme is getting old.  And rather than bringing up a horse that is as obvious as it is dead, how about exploring OTHER possibilities, which I can assure you was kind of the point of this thread.

No, the question was:

GavrielKay wrote...
If mages could not be forcibly gathered up and held by the Chantry and
Templars what do you think would happen?  Do you think they would be
killed or that society would find a way to co-exist with them?  Or
something else entirely

As in what do I think will happen? What do I think? And that is one of the possibilities I think. The OP did not post with any conditions as far as I can read.

Perhaps I've just read enough of Gav's post elsewhere to know that she was trying to provoke discussion about alternatives, rather than the oft-repeated dead horse about Tevinter, and I personally find "Well, there's always Tevinter" as trite a response to this question as "Well, there's always the Circles..." answer to people trying to provoke discussion about how to train mages properly, when it's obvious that the latter question is being asked specifically because the Circles as viewed as broken.  How about exploring other possibilities than the obvious one that has been debated to death?  Tevinter as a possibility really is the ultimate dead horse topic on this issue. 

[GavrielKay]

I wasn't trying to limit ideas, but fresh ones are certainly more fun than old ones. Is there no other possibility that you can think of keesio?

Given all we've read about Tevinter, I can't imagine anyone from outside it wanting to really create another one, or spread its influence. With the exception of a few crazy people like Tarohne of course. I mean, even if a mage wanted power, wealth and influence, why try to have it in an environment where you then have to duel to the death to keep it? Tevinter isn't even a nice place for mages to live, for all that it is worse for normals.

[goofyomnivore]

Tranquilty, death or seclusion would be the options for a typical mage. Mages birthed from noble houses could get lucky and their parents could maybe buy their existence.

[GavrielKay]

There's two approaches to my question too... when I posed the hypothetical I was thinking, what if mages could never have been imprisoned, but the answers seem to revolve more around what if they could no longer be kept going forward.

Had it never been an option to lock them up, if the Circles as presented could never have existed because mages could never have been forcibly kept, then what?

Do you think the gap in ability would just never be handled gracefully, or might the choice (never having known any other way) between death and integration have resulted in some form of integrated society? It is quite a bit easier for most people to justify locking someone up than killing them outright after all, so might not integration be generally preferable to mass murder?

[Urzon]

Basically, a medieval version of the entire X-Men storyline.

[nightscrawl]

Let's say a typical youngster is found to have magical abilities and is taken to the Circle. As that young mage grows, trains, makes mistakes while training, so on and so forth I find it hard to believe that a mage with power such as teleportation or wall-walking would be able to conceal it for long. The templars are ever vigilant, and teenagers, being how they are, make prideful errors that get them in trouble.

So, now we have this mage we know can teleport or walk through walls. What to do with her? You could kill her, but that seems like a waste, especially when tranquil can serve a useful function to the Circle. You could make her tranquil and eliminate the source of the problem.

You could use various templar abilities to contain the mage and/or isolate her in a protected area where spells would not work. Don't forget the mage origin in DAO. The locked door you are supposed to use the Rod of Fire on in the basement is carved with runes, preventing the use of magic. The templars have been operating for many centuries and probably have more than the limited ways we have seen in the games to control mages. Runes on a door are one such method, and unfortunately that is the only time something like that was used in either game.

The frustrating thing with how templars are depicted in the game is that they have amazing abilities that are used to control mages and hinder their magic. The single greatest example of this is in the cinematic when we first meet Meredith when she stops the Saarebas from casting. She also has a mana drain ability in the final fight. Really, players with mage characters should be afraid of fighting templars, and they should present a challenge. That is not so.

If the current system never developed because mages had those abilities innately, I'm not sure what would happen. You can't really say that everyone would be getting along because a large component of mage control is the religious aspect related to the Chantry. That would not have changed. A more necessarily tolerant system might have developed that focused strictly on mage education without the component of confinement in the Circle. No confinement means no mages wanting to rebel. No mages wanting to rebel means less resort to using forbidden magic. Those left would be your typical crazy, power-hungry, or just plain evil types that can be hunted down by the templars as needed, just as our police hunt down criminals.

There might be segregated communities that mages lived in, either because of feeling forced due to prejudice by non-mage Andrastians, or just as a desire to be among your fellows. I predict there would be laws, as there are currently in Ferelden and Kirkwall, preventing any mage from holding a high elected office, or from rising to a court advisory position or the throne via marriage, inheritance, or coup.

Or the Chantry could have gone the extreme route and just killed every single child that is discovered with magic abilities, not bothering with the Circle at all. But, their hypocrisy knows no bounds, and they would lament thier lack of firepower in a battle.

[Augustei]

They'd all be made tranquil, willing or not

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Granted, I'm cynical of anything that has to do with the Chantry. I'm currently replaying Origins, and I just left Lothering. And the Revered Mother of the chantry in Lothering just made me about flip my lid. She pretty much tells us those who come to ask for a blessing traditionally tithe first...using faith to gather funds from refugees who otherwise wouldn't have it. If you tell her you don't have any funds (whether or not that's true) then she'll try to be understanding but she'll also refuse to give the player a blessing whatsoever unless she gets the money.

Wasn't the Chantry the only one helping the refugees?
The regular army fled, it's the templars protectingthe village.
There is a shortage of everything and the merchants inflate food prices. Unless I'm mistaken, the money was used to help the refugrees, not bleed them dry.
Sure, the revered mother is rather rough and harsh, but taking care of the whole village would do that to you.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 mai 2012 - 10:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mages CANNOT be left to reaom free. It simply won't work. Not on the scale you are proposing.

The dalish model sorta-works (unless you consider entire clans walling to abominations working), but they are specific and there's only 1-2 mages in a clan.

The more power a single indivudual has, the less he can be trusted. Once you reach blood-level magic (mind-control), you cannot be trusted. Ever. At all.

[Urzon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The more power a single indivudual has, the less he can be trusted.

The irony of that is, that is how every human societies run.

That and you say you can't trust mages with their power, but you still  think it's ok to place their wellbeing (and said power) into the hands of a select few.

Modifié par Urzon, 03 mai 2012 - 11:53 .

[Reznore57]

The thing is most of thedas doesn't work like the dalish or as Qunari.
City elves are treated pretty badly , sure they're a lot of poor human too.
Picturing mages among them ,they'd have firepower and no much need for weapons they can't afford.

It's hard to have people with such power keeping low ,The tevinter Imperium with mage ruling is a logical outcome.
It doesn't mean that there's no good mages , but the good one will be crushed by those who will turn to bloodmagic and the likes to suceed

There used to be the ancient elves who seemed peaceful despite their magic , but everyone had it and there were no ancient history of chantry propanda ,violence etc..

I'd say if the past of mages and templars hasn't been so sour , it could have work out without the circle being some awful prison.
But magic isn't something fully understood in Thedas , accident happen ("oups we stepped in the golden city ") so it's really hard picturing some kind of equality or trust.