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[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

and sought out an incompetent apostate to train him

I dispute this. Jowan's certainly a bumbler, but it's not because he's a mage. He's a competent apostate that just really screws himself over a great deal of the time.

He even says that he didn't get to teach Connor that much before the demonic possession/corpse invasion.

And it's my belief that he was led to blood magic by Uldred in some form and was just another pawn in Uldred's scheme of "Root out blood mages, raise my standing, hide my status as a blood mage even further".

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Silfren wrote...

It's a desperate bid for survival.  They aren't dead the moment they turn into an abomination.  They're only dead when/if that abomination is killed by someone.  Again, it's a bid for survival at all costs.  People aren't thinking about being an unthinking abomination at the time, they're focused purely on staying alive.

Mutated abomination is monster regardles. You are no longer human. It the same thing as dead. You are not fighting for survival if you think mutated monster is your answer. You are dooming yourself.

Silfren wrote...
Quit dodging and just answer the question.  Leave aside whether it is good or bad to study blood magic: is it wrong to use your own blood to power spells in the defense of other people's lives when you don't have access to lyrium and your mana is exhausted?  It isn't enough to say a non blood mage will resort to anything to defend herself when I'm pointing out that part of the problem for this scenario is that her mana is gone and she has no lyrium, so the only means she has to power her magic is blood.  Are you of the opinion she should let people in her protection die rather than use her blood to defend them?  Yes or no.

I would rather kill myself than turning into monster and kill everyone including the one I protected. I will not repeat what Orsino did to others people. Morally or not. There's my answer. 

[Urzon]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
I don't care about the Chantry. Research can be done in the Circle. The mages can do research outside the Circle with permission like Finn. The Chantry prevent to study demonology and still it doesn't stop Irving to study demonology. So why bother with the Chantry? Knight Commander Gregoire maybe pricky but he is not that unreasonable like Meredith.  

You might not care about the Chantry, but the mages have to. Their lives and Circle are largely controlled by it, since the templar follow Chantry rules and law. And while it is true that mages can get permission to do research outside the Circle, there are usually certain situation that allows them to do so. Wilhelm helped in the war against Orlais. Wynne lent her skills as a healer to the Warden, who was trying to stop a Blight. Ines was searching for plants to renew blighted land. And Finn because he was working with the Warden.

Templars don't give passes to outside to just anyone. They have to have a very good reason for one.

So because Irving was able to get away with studying demonolgy, that makes it ok for everyone to try to as well? Sure why not! Screw the Chantry! It's not like they can gather all the mage together, if they think they are getting out of control, and they then procede to make the templars kill them all!

....Oh wait, they can. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Redcliffe happened becasue CONNOR WAS A MAGE. Period.

No, it is not PERIOD.

It is. Abominations cannot happen without mages.
That is the only constant in each and every abomination incident.

You can change every other variable around, and abominations can and will still happen.
Mages are the only factor that truly matters.

Had Isolde believed Connor could simply go for training, with the understanding that he would be allowed to come back when his studies were done, and that she would be able to see him as much as she wished, or had there been a system whereby Connor could be trained by an in-house mage so that he could learn his abilities in the comfort of his home, then Isolde would not have been so determined to keep his mageness a secret.

And that in no way guarantees he wouldn't have become possesed.

Moreso had she not been indoctrinated by the Chantry into believing that magic was a dirty, evil, and shameful thing that marked a person as inherently evil.

Common sense dictates that magic is a dangerous thing.
The Chantry doesn't have to say a word about it, peopel would come to the same conclusion. It's natural.

That deep-seated terror, of magic itself and the natural maternal fear of not wanting to lose her son, are what caused the disaster in Redcliffe.

Mages becoming possesed is what caused it.
In the grand sceheme of things, Isoldes case is irrelevant.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

And Mages when are extreme and evil tend to use blood magic or become like this cult:

Mythic Dawn

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...
I think those factors did play A ROLE in the shaping of the Circle system.  As in, I think those dangers exist, but not to the grievous, world-shattering extent the Chantry would have us believe.  I think those factors were overstated by the Chantry in order to justify the creation of the Circle system. 

Building strawmen doesn't help your case.

No is claiming that  mages running around would be the end of the wrold as we know it (altough with enough mages and tearing of the veil, that is certanly possible)

Mages are like natural disasters. They won't wipe out humanity, but they will kill and destroy.. A LOT.

A world with a Circle system is a safer place. Fact.
Mages running around freely would have a greater total death toll. Fact.

And the equally important aspect - the populace. It will not agree with letting the mages go free.

I simply do not think the existing lore supports the belief that mages and magic are so inherently dangerous that the Circle system as it formerly existed is the only possible means to deal with potential calamity.

A I think you are wrong.

Fact: Despite the fact that the lore does indicate that templars either can't defend against blood magic or have a harder time doing so, we DO have the Litany of Adralla, which defends against "blood magic mind domination" and by extension, demonic possession. 

No.
You insist on downplaying any and all danger of mages and abominations and putting all blame at the feet of the Chantry.

Fact: The Chantry does not permit research, even when that research could lead to beneficial means of defending against abominations, demons, and blood mages.  Y'know, those things the Chantry abhors and claims to want to protect people from?

FALSE. The exact regulations of who can research and what can and cannot be researched or has been is never specified.

Fact: Tevinter isn't in a total state of collapse, but is a thriving city.  Given the extent to which magic is practiced there, it also must have a thin or completely-gone Veil.  Yet abominations and demons have yet to decimate the city and rampage throughout the rest of Thedas.  So it appears that Tevinter has methods for preventing those things or at least effectively countering them before they can wreak havoc. 

Tevinter has it's own templars.
Mages prey on mages there. And we don't hear much of what is happening in Tevinter. We have no idea how big a problem abominations are there and how big a death toll they extract each year.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 09 mai 2012 - 09:48 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Urzon wrote...

You might not care about the Chantry, but the mages have to. Their lives and Circle are largely controlled by it, since the templar follow Chantry rules and law. And while it is true that mages can get permission to do research outside the Circle, there are usually certain situation that allows them to do so. Wilhelm helped in the war against Orlais. Wynne lent her skills as a healer to the Warden, who was trying to stop a Blight. Ines was searching for plants to renew blighted land. And Finn because he was working with the Warden.

Templars don't give passes to outside to just anyone. They have to have a very good reason for one.

So because Irving was able to get away with studying demonolgy, that makes it ok for everyone to try to as well? Sure why not! Screw the Chantry! It's not like they can gather all the mage together, if they think they are getting out of control, and they then procede to make the templars kill them all!

....Oh wait, they can. 

You are overstated the chantry. Uldred ( Libertarians ), Niall ( Isolationists ) and  Orsino do get away with their reseach.  Even Finn secretly study ancient Tervinter history by talking to a statue, Eleni Zinovia.  

I don't think the chantry is too restrictive. Sometime they just ignore The Circle to avoid too much hostility..

The Circle maintains a neutrality policy, since the Chantry might take action against them if they got into the habit of getting involved into conflicts, the single exception being perhaps during a Blight. Nonetheless, it isn't that unusual to see at least one mage or two serving either side during a conflict and the Circle ignoring these, either as a courtesy or as a way of not creating too much enmity against the Circle on either side.

http://dragonage.wik.../Circle_of_Magi

[Reznore57]

About Connor , it's not just because he is a mage that he became posessed.
First his father get poisoned , so the boy is in distress and an easy prey.
Second his mother kept him from having a proper training because she's afraid she will never see him again in the circle , so the boy didn't know how to defend himself from a demon.

Actually , Meredith'sister had almost the same story , her parents didn't send her to the circle because they were afraid of it , so no proper training, girl became an abomination , and Meredith very clever woman thought "well mages are bad" ...You know , she could have thought that the fact that mages and family are afraid of going to a circle , might be the actual problem?

And small community tend to have mages , Dalish ,Chasind have Chaman , etc..maybe because they know how to treat their mages?You know good one are kept in the clan and help with their magics and ban ones are banned?
I'm not saying there's not the problem of abomination killing everyone , but it must be less frequent in a envirronement where all mages are well trained and not under a lot of stress.

[Koire]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is. Abominations cannot happen without mages.
That is the only constant in each and every abomination incident.

Abominations can't happen without mages, because abominations are possessed mages. It does not preclude demons from possessing normal people (including templars) and even inanimate objects from skeletons to trees. The resulting creatures can't be called abominations by definition, though. They are simply "possessed ones."

Modifié par Koire, 09 mai 2012 - 04:24 .

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
The problem is I don't feel my Amell was tormented, cursed and used for their pleasure. I didn't see Wyhhe suffer that either. Or Irving. Or my other mages fellow in the Circle. The tranquils I met at the circle are volunteered transquil. Everyone seem content with where they are. The only person in the Circle who complain is Jowan. That because he is a bloodmage.

Your Amell warden wasn't tormented.  But countless others have been.  I think you said you haven't read Asunder, but that does provide a nice look into how the mages feel.  And Kirkwall showed you plenty.

I never practise forbidden art. I'm not fond of controlling other people's mind or draw blood to perform magic.

Good for you.  But expecting someone else to NOT use everything at their disposal in defense of their life is generally going to disappoint you.

As long as the mages insist on using blood magic, they will forever be shun by the public.

It has been argued many times on this thread that blood magic is not as dangerous and as sure a path to possession as the Chantry would have you believe.  Unless you have a counterargument to all those points, then this repetition is useless.

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Redcliffe happened becasue CONNOR WAS A MAGE. Period.

The fact that you so adamantly put the blame on the one person in that whole mess who had no control of the situation is alarming.  Everyone else involved was an adult who should have known better.  Everyone else involved was knowingly breaking the rules and doing something stupid.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Reznore57 wrote...

About Connor , it's not just because he is a mage that he became posessed.
First his father get poisoned , so the boy is in distress and an easy prey.
Second his mother kept him from having a proper training because she's afraid she will never see him again in the circle , so the boy didn't know how to defend himself from a demon.

That's not true. Isolde make erroneous assumption. There is no reference that parents are prevented to see their children in the Circle. For example Finn in Witch Hunt.

Unlike most other mages of the circle who have no contact with their families, Finn actually has a very close relationship with his parents.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Finn

Reznore57 wrote...

And small community tend to have mages , Dalish ,Chasind have Chaman , etc..maybe because they know how to treat their mages?You know good one are kept in the clan and help with their magics and ban ones are banned?
I'm not saying there's not the problem of abomination killing everyone , but it must be less frequent in a envirronement where all mages are well trained and not under a lot of stress.

Chantry's attitude toward non-human mage vary.  The Dalish are fully independant from the Chantry's law. They have their own set of rule.  The Chasind's shamans are unknown. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 09 mai 2012 - 05:08 .

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages are like natural disasters. They won't wipe out humanity, but they will kill and destroy.. A LOT.

I don't think the game shows us a single example of a mage being possessed against his will.  Every instance we see (unless you can provide an oppsoing example?) is of a mage who is under extreme stress and sees no other option.  So, it appears that for the most part, a mage treated well, and trained well will NOT become an abomonation while casually walking down the street.

Therefore, it would seem that the safer path for everyone would be mages who are integrated into society and happy.  The mages we see turning to demons do so because they feel they have nothing left to lose.  So, give them a community and a family - a reason to live and love and be safe. 

Becoming an abomination is about desperation.  It is a last resort attempt to at least take out of few of the enemy as your mind is wiped out by a demon.  The solution to that problem is to quit putting mages in desperate circumstances.  Quit rounding them up like criminals and telling them how cursed they are and how untrustworthy. 

Imagine if you grew up from as young as age 6 being told you're not allowed family, your friends can be mind wiped at any time if someone thinks they are dangerous and so could you, your're cursed, dangerous, barely better than a wild animal, unfit to live among normal society...  Does this sound like a recipe for a sound mind determined to preserve life and reject demons?

The problem with pointing at all the abominations we see in the game and saying "see, mages are dangerous!" is that those mages grew up under a system which tells them that no matter what they do, they'll never be completely trusted, never escape their curse.  Why should people with nothing to lose and nothing to gain care? 

Treating mages like potentially exploding kittens only makes it easier for them to become such.

Societies which treat mages like people who can be expected to be responsible for their actions have less trouble.  So why is it so hard to see that is the better path?

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Unlike most other mages of the circle who have no contact with their families, Finn actually has a very close relationship with his parents.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Finn

So you've used a quote that makes it clear it isn't normal to show that mage can still have a relationship with their family?

It is pretty clear from lore and gamplay fhat for most children taken by the Chantry and put in the circle that is the last time they see their family.  A lot of times it could simply be because the circles are specifically situated in remote areas (the Gallows is different, but even that is on a restricted island).  A mage can be sent to any circle which means a lot of time simple distance would make it very difficult to maintain contact.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

GavrielKay wrote...
Your Amell warden wasn't tormented.  But countless others have been.  I think you said you haven't read Asunder, but that does provide a nice look into how the mages feel.  And Kirkwall showed you plenty.

Then you are making false generalization. Mages in Kirkwall do not represent every mages everywhere. Mages treatment do not depend on the chantry law alone. It depends on The Circle relationship with the templar. It depend how the First Enchanter run his circle. It depends on various other possibilties. 

GavrielKay wrote...

Good for you.  But expecting someone else to NOT use everything at their disposal in defense of their life is generally going to disappoint you.

I'm not. I don't pity them. They know their consequences of their action. Therefore, they should be willingly to take their own responsiblity.

GavrielKay wrote..

It has been argued many times on this thread that blood magic is not as dangerous and as sure a path to possession as the Chantry would have you believe.  Unless you have a counterargument to all those points, then this repetition is useless.

I don't have to believe the Chantry. It proven right in front of my eyes. Every single mages outside Kirkwall's Circle of Magi change to mutated red alien who attack anyone friend or foe. Even Orsino himself turn into harvester. You claim the templars mistreated the mages badly. A bloodmage kidnapped Kerran and other recruits and tortured them too. Templar do not mistreated common people. A bloodmage turn Leandra into zombie and few other women. Templar do not mind control others and turn them into monsters. Uldred did that out of greed.

So how is it not dangerous?

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 09 mai 2012 - 05:28 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Unlike most other mages of the circle who have no contact with their families, Finn actually has a very close relationship with his parents.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Finn

So you've used a quote that makes it clear it isn't normal to show that mage can still have a relationship with their family?

It is pretty clear from lore and gamplay fhat for most children taken by the Chantry and put in the circle that is the last time they see their family.  A lot of times it could simply be because the circles are specifically situated in remote areas (the Gallows is different, but even that is on a restricted island).  A mage can be sent to any circle which means a lot of time simple distance would make it very difficult to maintain contact.

I have proven to you it's not always the case,

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
I don't have to believe the Chantry. It proven right in front of my eyes. Every single mages outside Kirkwall's Circle of Magi change to mutated red alien who attack anyone friend or foe.

It isn't every mage.

Do you completely discount cause and effect then?  Every mage in Kirkwall is either trying to avoid or already under the power of one of the harshest Knight Commanders known.  A woman who eventually becomes insane and sees evil everywhere.

I see that you don't care that a mage is backed into a corner, you think they should simply die rather than treat with demons.  And that's noble.  But I think the solution to the larger problem is to quit backing mages into corners.  I think it is backwards to say that mages have to prove they won't treat with demons even in fear of their life betore we'll trust them enough to quit putting them in fear of their life.

Most mages are raised by the Chantry to believe they will just never be trusted.  That may well prevent them from ever developing the self trust and confidence needed to resist demons when under pressure.  Can you see that the system you think is protecting people from evil mages might be creating evil mages?

[Sacred_Fantasy]

GavrielKay wrote...

Becoming an abomination is about desperation.  It is a last resort attempt to at least take out of few of the enemy as your mind is wiped out by a demon.  The solution to that problem is to quit putting mages in desperate circumstances.  Quit rounding them up like criminals and telling them how cursed they are and how untrustworthy.  

That's not a solution. There will always be people like Udred who lust for power,  Quentin who turn mad, Gascard who are interested with necromancy and Lady Harimman who desire to seize Starkhaven through  Desire Demon Allure. This people are not desperate as you claimed.

[TEWR]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

That's not true. Isolde make erroneous assumption. There is no reference that parents are prevented to see their children in the Circle. For example Finn in Witch Hunt.

We have no knowledge of what Finn's family is like. But given his rather convoluted and long ass name, we can assume that he may be from a very rich family. And considering that his gloves and boots are lined with very expensive fox fur and were a gift from his father, I consider it to be extremely likely.

Finn's boots are lined with expensive fox fur. They were crafted to match Finn's fur-lined gloves. The gloves were a gift from Finn's father for surviving his Harrowing.

Plus his belt was commissioned by his father from Denerim's finest leatherworker:

Finn's belt is stylish, yet functional. His father comissioned it from Denerim's finest leatherworker. Several well-concealed compartments in the belt allow Finn to store gold and other knick-knacks

Which would allow for him to have rights that mages don't get because of money, as we see time and time again in the games. A First Enchanter was able to live outside of the Circle for the rest of her life because her family was wealthy, as MotA tells us

Bethany is able to see her family because her family reclaimed their wealth and estate.

But Huon is unable to see his wife and he lived in the alienage. Evelina was unable to see her adopted children and she willingly turned herself over to the Circle, pleading for the Chantry and Templars to help take care of her adopted kids.

Money buys mages rights they should otherwise already have.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 mai 2012 - 05:38 .

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Becoming an abomination is about desperation.  It is a last resort attempt to at least take out of few of the enemy as your mind is wiped out by a demon.  The solution to that problem is to quit putting mages in desperate circumstances.  Quit rounding them up like criminals and telling them how cursed they are and how untrustworthy.  

That's not a solution. There will always be people like Udred who lust for power,  Quentin who turn mad, Gascard who are interested with necromancy and Lady Harimman who desire to seize Starkhaven through  Desire Demon Allure. This people are not desperate as you claimed.

Yes they are.

Uldred is rebelling against having his life controled by the Chantry.  Quentin is mad in grief over his dead wife.

They are each desperate in their own way.  None of them is accidentally possessed while dreaming or thinking about gardening.

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Money buys mages rights they should otherwise already have.

And ironically, apparently rich mages aren't exloding kittens?  But somehow more trustworthy than the rest...  Nice double standard there...  or is it that the Chantry knows most mages aren't exploding kittens and is therefore willing to curry favor with rich families by doing something they know isn't that dangerous anyway?

[TEWR]

What Mages really need is a psychological examination every now and then.

Being a Mage is about more then just honing magical skills. You need to know how to handle stress, grief, trauma, pain, sorrow, etc.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

That's not true. Isolde make erroneous assumption. There is no reference that parents are prevented to see their children in the Circle. For example Finn in Witch Hunt.

We have no knowledge of what Finn's family is like. But given his rather convoluted and long ass name, we can assume that he may be from a very rich family. And considering that his gloves and boots are lined with very expensive fox fur and were a gift from his father, I consider it to be extremely likely.

Finn's boots are lined with expensive fox fur. They were crafted to match Finn's fur-lined gloves. The gloves were a gift from Finn's father for surviving his Harrowing.

Plus his belt was commissioned by his father from Denerim's finest leatherworker:

Finn's belt is stylish, yet functional. His father comissioned it from Denerim's finest leatherworker. Several well-concealed compartments in the belt allow Finn to store gold and other knick-knacks

Which would allow for him to have rights that mages don't get because of money, as we see time and time again in the games. A First Enchanter was able to live outside of the Circle for the rest of her life because her family was wealthy, as MotA tells us

Bethany is able to see her family because her family reclaimed their wealth and estate.

But Huon is unable to see his wife and he lived in the alienage. Evelina was unable to see her adopted children and she willingly turned herself over to the Circle, pleading for the Chantry and Templars to help take care of her adopted kids.

Money buys mages rights they should otherwise already have.

Interesting theory.
Is that what happen to Bethany in The Circle? Because I never allow her to enter the Circle in my playthrough.
Still I can't understant why Isolde don't use her wealth just to buy mages right for her son. It would save a lot of problem already. She's the arless of Redcliff anyway.

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Still I can't understant why Isolde don't use her wealth just to buy mages right for her son. It would save a lot of problem already. She's the arless of Redcliff anyway.

I don't think it was entirely about the circle for her.  Part of it seemed like she was ashamed that her son had turned out to be a mage.  Plus, there's no guarantee that even with money she would have been able to maintain contact.  And even being able to visit and write letters is far different from being able to raise your own son.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

GavrielKay wrote...
Uldred is rebelling against having his life controled by the Chantry.

Nope. He wanted to create an army of mutated abomination for total domination. Irrelevant to freedom.

GavrielKay wrote...

Quentin is mad in grief over his dead wife.

Irrelevant to the templar and chantry.

GavrielKay wrote...

They are each desperate in their own way.  None of them is accidentally possessed while dreaming or thinking about gardening.

Whatever it's. It certainly irrelevant  to the chantry and templar misconduct.