629 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Lithany of Adralla does has explicit proof to disrupt mind control magic. We used it in our inventory. And we need to activate it every two minutes or so. Work well in combat but not pratical to use for daily live solution. 

Sure, but the premise of the thread is to speculate about things... perhaps there's a way to improve the Litany and increase its duration.  At the very least the Litany points to the possibilty of protecting folks from blood magic.

[DPSSOC]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Lithany of Adralla does has explicit proof to disrupt mind control magic. We used it in our inventory. And we need to activate it every two minutes or so. Work well in combat but not pratical to use for daily live solution. 

Sure, but the premise of the thread is to speculate about things... perhaps there's a way to improve the Litany and increase its duration.  At the very least the Litany points to the possibilty of protecting folks from blood magic.

New job for the Chanters, every few minutes rhyme off the Litany.

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
New job for the Chanters, every few minutes rhyme off the Litany.

Just don't give it to the one in Denerim who messes up the Chant.  Who knows what you'd end up with

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Silfren wrote...
We do actually know enough about Rivaini seers to make educated guesses.


1. ) The wise-women are held in high regard by their communities, to the extent that the Chantry is unwelcome because the people have no interest in seeing their seers locked up in Circles.  


2. ) We also know that Rivaini seers willingly allow themselves to be possessed--at least we have a codex about a book wherein this claim is made, which also indicates that this is public knowledge and not a deep, dark secret, so the common people of Rivain apparently don't have much problem with it.

The Rivaini people clearly aren't afraid of their mage neighbors, and it would seem that these women who become possessed do so after the fashion of Wynne and Anders, rather than becoming giant, mindless meatbags. 

Like it or not, it's a pretty safe bet that the Rivaini people haven't seen chaos and death on a catastrophic level to make them fear mages and want to follow the Chantry's policy in imprisoning them. 

You are making educated guess based on this 2 factors alone? Without proper evalution on explicit in-game proof that detail their condtions and rules?

1.) How is seeing the Seer not get locked up suppose to protect the Chasind  from turning into mutated alien?

2. ) Anders and Wynne are not possessed by demon. They're possessed by Spirit. We have seen spirits in the fade.  And we seen demon desire too.  Spirit is not the same as demon.   

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
2. ) Anders and Wynne are not possessed by demon. They're possessed by Spirit. We have seen spirits in the fade.  And we seen demon desire too.  Spirit is not the same as demon.   

Actually I think we're told by Merrill that they are the same.  Of course, she's only giving her opinion, but the creation story doesn't really seem to separate them other than the emotions they embody either.

[Lamepro]

Depends on how Bioware makes the rules and laws on Magic in Dragon Age.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
2. ) Anders and Wynne are not possessed by demon. They're possessed by Spirit. We have seen spirits in the fade.  And we seen demon desire too.  Spirit is not the same as demon.   

Actually I think we're told by Merrill that they are the same.  Of course, she's only giving her opinion, but the creation story doesn't really seem to separate them other than the emotions they embody either.

There is no eveidence that possession by spirits could cause the host to mutate. Yet we have seen from Harrowing and Connor's dream that Demons do transform into mutated abomination. Demon are known for their malicious nature. They deceive people. Pride demon possess a corpse of a mage could turn into arcane  horor or revenant. Yet we have not seen spirit do such thing. We have seen Spirit of Valor in Harrowing, Spirit of Justice/Vengence through Anders and Spirit of Faith through Wynne. That's the different.

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Demon are known for their malicious nature. They deceive people. Pride demon possess a corpse of a mage could turn into arcane  horor or revenant. Yet we have not seen spirit do such thing. We have seen Spirit of Valor in Harrowing, Spirit of Justice/Vengence through Anders and Spirit of Faith through Wynne. That's the different.

Yes, clearly they behave differently.  The thing I'm less sure is answered by the game is whether they are made up of the same stuff and diverge only in their motives and behavior.  If you only become a mutated abomination when the demon takes over and wipes out your mind, then we woudln't expect to see that with the benevolent ones. 

Obviously they are the same in their ability to inhabit a host and to co-exist with that host if they choose to.  We see that with Uldred (up until he's facing our swords) and Connor, and Wynne and Anders.  Perhaps the only difference is that the benevolent Fade dwellers never take the extra step of wiping out the host psyche and taking over their bodies rather than sharing.

I don't think this has been clearly answered by the devs.

[Silfren]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Silfren wrote...
We do actually know enough about Rivaini seers to make educated guesses.


1. ) The wise-women are held in high regard by their communities, to the extent that the Chantry is unwelcome because the people have no interest in seeing their seers locked up in Circles.  


2. ) We also know that Rivaini seers willingly allow themselves to be possessed--at least we have a codex about a book wherein this claim is made, which also indicates that this is public knowledge and not a deep, dark secret, so the common people of Rivain apparently don't have much problem with it.

The Rivaini people clearly aren't afraid of their mage neighbors, and it would seem that these women who become possessed do so after the fashion of Wynne and Anders, rather than becoming giant, mindless meatbags. 

Like it or not, it's a pretty safe bet that the Rivaini people haven't seen chaos and death on a catastrophic level to make them fear mages and want to follow the Chantry's policy in imprisoning them. 

You are making educated guess based on this 2 factors alone? Without proper evalution on explicit in-game proof that detail their condtions and rules?

1.) How is seeing the Seer not get locked up suppose to protect the Chasind  from turning into mutated alien?

2. ) Anders and Wynne are not possessed by demon. They're possessed by Spirit. We have seen spirits in the fade.  And we seen demon desire too.  Spirit is not the same as demon.   

To answer your point about number 1, my point was only that clearly the people do not live in fear of mages since they hold their mages in high regard, don't welcome in the Chantry because they realize that to do so would require sending their mages into Circle prisons, and aren't worried about the fact that their mages willingly let themselves become possessed. 

Bear in mind that this info comes from a Chantry scholar.  A pro-Chantry source, which, given the nature of the info the codex contains, means it is likely to be accurate.  Anyway, I consider it perfectly sound speculation to assert that Rivain's people aren't afraid of mages since they are hostile to the Chantry on the basis of the Chantry's insistence that mages be locked up.  And I further assert that this lack of fear of mages must mean that despite their mages being free, Rivain does not have a serious, ceaseless problem of mages using their powers to terrorize others, of mages losing control of their powers, or or mages lacking the willpower to avoid becoming meatbag abominations.

This IS sound evaluation based on the currently available evidence.  

Going on, I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what "{How is seeing the Seer not get locked up suppose to protect the Chasind from turning into mutated alien?" means.  First off, I wasn't talking about the Chasind, but the Rivaini.  Secondly, you keep bringing up the mutated abomination thing.  I get that that is your concern, but my statement didn't address it because I was tackling a related but somewhat separate point: that clearly the common people of Rivain don't live in fear of mages turning into meatbag abominations and raging across the countryside to slaughte everyone in their wake, and it can only mean that they don't fear that problem because it ISN'T a problem.  Either Rivain has sufficient safeguards in place to prevent against it that work extremely well, or it's such an unusual problem that Rivain doesn't feel the need to provide any more intensive measures to protect against it than it does to protect against the occasional mass-murderer.  Not locking the seers up ISN'T supposed to protect against "mutated aliens," but I wasn't talking, just then, about methods to defend against them, I was pointing out that since the Rivaini aren't eager to lock up their mages, it must not be something high on their list of priorities.  And for that to be the case, it can only mean that it isn't a major problem to begin with.

Addressing number 2, firstly it appears that the Chantry doesn't distinguish between spirits and demons when it comes to possession.  They preach about the inherent difference between the two groups, but when it comes down to it, the lore would suggest that the templars wouldn't care all that much whether a mage was possessed by a benign spirit or a malevolent one.  Their interest appears to stop dead at "possessed."  Further, we see in the case of Anders that if a person doesn't have a solid grip on their emotional state, they risk warping a benign spirit into a demon.  Based on that, and lore we have from Awakening, and from Merrill, it would seem that there isn't actually that much difference between spirits and demons, or that the difference can melt away in the blink of an eye under the right conditions. 

Becoming possessed is a risky endeavor regardless of whether the possessor in question is a spirit or demon. Anders proves this, which makes me really surprised you brought him up as an example to try to counter my argument.  For that matter, in Asunder there's a scene where Wynne herself starts to lose it, only to be shocked back into herself, as it were, by Evangeline.  It would have been interesting to see what mght've happened had she not been held back from the brink.  Anyway, once more, the Chantry itself and the templars don't seem to be all that interested in the distinctions, if any, between spirits and demons where actual possession is concerned.  No, I don't believe that the templars would have restrained themselves from killing Wynne had they known she was possessed.  I also note that she didn't exactly advertise her condition to the templars in Origins, despite being an Aequitarian who didn't seem to hate the Circle all that much.  Case in point: even though Spirit Healer is a tradition mages can learn in the Circle, templars are especially wary of it, even though it focuses on beneficial spirits for the purpose of healing people. 

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[Silfren]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
2. ) Anders and Wynne are not possessed by demon. They're possessed by Spirit. We have seen spirits in the fade.  And we seen demon desire too.  Spirit is not the same as demon.   

Actually I think we're told by Merrill that they are the same.  Of course, she's only giving her opinion, but the creation story doesn't really seem to separate them other than the emotions they embody either.

There is no eveidence that possession by spirits could cause the host to mutate. Yet we have seen from Harrowing and Connor's dream that Demons do transform into mutated abomination. Demon are known for their malicious nature. They deceive people. Pride demon possess a corpse of a mage could turn into arcane  horor or revenant. Yet we have not seen spirit do such thing. We have seen Spirit of Valor in Harrowing, Spirit of Justice/Vengence through Anders and Spirit of Faith through Wynne. That's the different.

You DO realize that part of the narrative of DA2 is that when the spirit of Justice joined with Anders, he became a demon of Vengeance?  Not a spirit, a demon.  From both Awakening and DA2 it is established that demons are spirits corrupted by their desires, and that spirits are susceptible to this corruption, not immune to it by virtue of being spirits as if that makes them fundamentally different from demons.  We see in the person of Anders that despite the best intentions of both mage and spirit, when they joined together, Anders all-to-human anger perverted the spirit into a demon.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2012 - 07:01 .

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Demon are known for their malicious nature. They deceive people. Pride demon possess a corpse of a mage could turn into arcane  horor or revenant. Yet we have not seen spirit do such thing. We have seen Spirit of Valor in Harrowing, Spirit of Justice/Vengence through Anders and Spirit of Faith through Wynne. That's the different.

Yes, clearly they behave differently.  The thing I'm less sure is answered by the game is whether they are made up of the same stuff and diverge only in their motives and behavior.  If you only become a mutated abomination when the demon takes over and wipes out your mind, then we woudln't expect to see that with the benevolent ones. 

Obviously they are the same in their ability to inhabit a host and to co-exist with that host if they choose to.  We see that with Uldred (up until he's facing our swords) and Connor, and Wynne and Anders.  Perhaps the only difference is that the benevolent Fade dwellers never take the extra step of wiping out the host psyche and taking over their bodies rather than sharing.

I don't think this has been clearly answered by the devs.

I've always wondered if the fact that most mages who become possessed turn into mindless, meatbag abominations was supposed to be the standard for all mages...until the story dictated that prominent characters like Wynne, Connor, and Anders become abominations, too, and the Devs fell into a plot-hole they haven't yet figured out how to climb out of.  It just always seemd like a case of plot-armor run amok.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2012 - 07:06 .

[TEWR]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
Every mage who turns to blood magic to escape the Chantry is the fault of the Chantry.

Every mages? That's exaggerating.

I don't see how Quentin, DuPois and Lady Harimann have anything to do with the Chantry.

*Sigh*

She said that every mage that turns to blood magic to escape the Chantry's watchful eyes is the fault of the Chantry, not every mage that turns to blood magic period is the fault of the Chantry.

There's a huge difference. People like Lady Harimann -- though we have proof in-game that she wasn't a mage ever and the demon seems to have given her mage powers -- and Gascard are not the fault of the Chantry.

Silfren wrote...

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to indicate that I thought Jowan was incompetent simply because he was a mage, but just that he was a really crappy choice for teaching someone else.

Ah, my apologies then for misunderstanding your post.

  I wouldn't put him forward as an example of competence for other mages to shoot for, but that isn't to say I think he's totally inept.  Just certainly not someone I'd consider fit for teaching others--especially kids just being exposed to magical tutelage for the first time. 

Oh I'm not denying he's a bumbler. He certainly is. But even after escaping from the Tower he hasn't fallen prey to demons yet. So that's saying something about his talents.

But you can't really blame him for what happened at Redcliffe. Well, not entirely. He had just started teaching Connor when Eamon fell sick from the poison Jowan administered and I doubt that they had time to get to the critical aspects: Demons.

I believe that Jowan poisoned Eamon and began teaching Connor, but the poison was fast-acting and he was subsequently thrown in prison. Connor then went into a demon's arms before he knew just what he was doing.

It could be argued that the first lesson Connor should've been taught was "Demons bad.", but I imagine that Jowan wanted to first teach him to exert some measure of control over his powers first before getting to topics that might make Connor worry/panic.

It's a combination of Loghain's fault (almost entirely really IMO), Jowan's fault, and Isolde's fault. Which isn't to say Isolde was necessarily a bad person. But the blame -- or at least part of it -- does rest on her shoulders.

I still wish I could've recruited Jowan into the Grey Wardens and sent him to study under Avernus at Soldier's Peak .

Irving may have felt that his actions were justified under the rule of "the weak must be sacrificed for the good of the rest" but I still hate him for setting Jowan up for failure like that.  Honestly...purposely leaving tomes of blood magic around anyone to look at, and punishing those who do?  As much as I can appreciate the logic behind it and feel for the position that Irving felt he was in because of the combative system the Chantry created, I still find it a despicable practice.  Entrapment is just never okay.  

Makes me wonder if that particular scheme originated from Uldred's sick little mind, seeing as how I'm almost certain he was the root of all the entrapment cases. We know that he would root out the blood mages in the Circle in an effort to hide his own status as one and raise his authority within the Circle, but we don't know if he had anything to do with the mages turning to blood magic in the first place.

I imagine however that it is the most likely scenario, considering he was building up a group of people with similar interests and they were almost all blood mages.

Either the scheme originated from Uldred, Irving, or the Chantry was just careless in what tomes were there. Either way, it's backwards logic and entrapment.

"Don't turn to blood magic! It's evil! But we have tomes on the topic incase you're interested!"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mai 2012 - 07:46 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
Every mage who turns to blood magic to escape the Chantry is the fault of the Chantry.

Every mages? That's exaggerating.

I don't see how Quentin, DuPois and Lady Harimann have anything to do with the Chantry.

*Sigh*

She said that every mage that turns to blood magic to escape the Chantry's watchful eyes is the fault of the Chantry, not every mage that turns to blood magic period is the fault of the Chantry.

There's a hugh difference. People like Lady Harimann -- though we have proof in-game that she wasn't a mage ever and the demon seems to have given her mage powers -- and Gascard are not the fault of the Chantry.

Har.  That's twice now that people have hacked up Gav's words--right after quoting them in full. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...
Every mage who turns to blood magic to escape the Chantry is the fault of the Chantry.

No, not even close.
This is some weird circular logic going there.

Mages are put in circles because they are dangerous, and this is the only practical solution.
Because they are put in there some resort to blood magic.
So what? You root out the week, pathetic fools more easily .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Demon are known for their malicious nature. They deceive people. Pride demon possess a corpse of a mage could turn into arcane  horor or revenant. Yet we have not seen spirit do such thing. We have seen Spirit of Valor in Harrowing, Spirit of Justice/Vengence through Anders and Spirit of Faith through Wynne. That's the different.

I don't think this has been clearly answered by the devs.

Daive Gaider answered it

David Gaider wrote...

Dhiro wrote...
Dinosaur Gaider hates Desire Demons almost as much as he hates dwarves. Because I'm saying so. :<

Actually, I'd have nothing against having a Desire Demon as a party member. That could be quite cool. But they'd either need to be a manifest demon or be possessing a host-- they couldn't be melded a la Wynne. That's what a spirit does, and the two are very different things.

http://social.biowar...index/5677404/3

GavrielKay wrote...

The thing I'm less sure is answered by the game is whether they are made up of the same stuff

They are both spirit but demon is inherently malicious.

GavrielKay wrote...

and diverge only in their motives and behavior.

Spirits are neither benovelent or malicious. When they possesses a host they feed on their host emotion and turn into that form like Spirit of Valor, Spirit of Justice ( Kristoff ), Spirit of Vengence ( Anders ) and Spirit of Faith (Wynne )  

GavrielKay wrote...


If you only become a mutated abomination when the demon takes over and wipes out your mind, then we woudln't expect to see that with the benevolent ones.

Yes. Only mage possesed by demon turn into abomination

Regardless of the reason, a demon always attempts to possess a mage when it encounters one—by force or by making some kind of deal depending on the strength of the mage. Should the demon get the upper hand, the result is an unholy union known as an abomination.

http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Abomination
 
In short demon is dark spirit that turn into abomination when it possessed a mage. Other form of spirit possession do not cause the host to mutate into abomination.


Udred, Connor, Quentin, DuPois, Orsino, common mages in Kirkwall and Lady Harimann are example of demon possession.

Kristoff's corpse, Anders and Wynne are example or spirit possession.


It's important for you to establish the difference because what is hunted down by the Chantry is abomination and not spirit possession.

Abominations have been responsible for some of the worst cataclysms in history, and the notion that some mage in a remote tower could turn into such a creature unbeknownst to any was the driving force behind the creation of the Circle of Magi


The Circle has methods for weeding out those who are too at risk for demonic possession, and scant few mages would give up their free will to submit to such a bond with a demon. But once an abomination is created, it will do its best to create more. Considering that entire squads of templars have been known to fall at the hands of a single abomination, it is not surprising that the Chantry takes the business of the Circle of Magi very seriously indeed.

http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Abomination

I hope this explain. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 10 mai 2012 - 08:31 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
Every mage who turns to blood magic to escape the Chantry is the fault of the Chantry.

Every mages? That's exaggerating.

I don't see how Quentin, DuPois and Lady Harimann have anything to do with the Chantry.

*Sigh*

She said that every mage that turns to blood magic to escape the Chantry's watchful eyes is the fault of the Chantry, not every mage that turns to blood magic period is the fault of the Chantry.

There's a hugh difference. People like Lady Harimann -- though we have proof in-game that she wasn't a mage ever and the demon seems to have given her mage powers -- and Gascard are not the fault of the Chantry.

Har.  That's twice now that people have hacked up Gav's words--right after quoting them in full. 

I'm aware of Gav's post. She/he tries to suggest that Chantry is to be blamed on all accounts.  That is why I bring out names that do not have any relevance to the Chantry.

Edit: And Silfren my reply to Gav's post explaining the difference between abomination and spirit possession is directed to you too.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 10 mai 2012 - 08:43 .

[Ivucci]

GavrielKay wrote...

Yes, clearly they behave differently. The thing I'm less sure is answered by the game is whether they are made up of the same stuff and diverge only in their motives and behavior. If you only become a mutated abomination when the demon takes over and wipes out your mind, then we woudln't expect to see that with the benevolent ones.

Obviously they are the same in their ability to inhabit a host and to co-exist with that host if they choose to. We see that with Uldred (up until he's facing our swords) and Connor, and Wynne and Anders. Perhaps the only difference is that the benevolent Fade dwellers never take the extra step of wiping out the host psyche and taking over their bodies rather than sharing.

I don't think this has been clearly answered by the devs.

I mainly find it interesting that not even Justice himself knows the details or is aware of possible consequences.

During the conversation in Awakening, when Anders suggests Justice is or might become a demon, Justice’s reaction is everything but convincing, he basically just snaps back as if offended (or angry, even, which in itself is interesting, given what anger will do to him, but that might only be a wrong interpretation based on the voice acting; plus he becomes irritated more than once by Anders’ nagging).

I would have liked to hear what Wynne could have to say about Anders’ little predicament. Not that she knows everything, but her input might be interesting,

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Spirits are neither benovelent or malicious. When they possesses a host they feed on their host emotion and turn into that form like Spirit of Valor, Spirit of Justice ( Kristoff ), Spirit of Vengence ( Anders ) and Spirit of Faith (Wynne )

I don’t think this is correct. Justice was Justice before merging with Anders/Kristoff, and he was Justice for some time after merging as well.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

It's important for you to establish the difference because what is hunted down by the Chantry is abomination and not spirit possession.

Or, we have another option – not to follow every Chantry’s opinion on every damned thing in the world.

I would think that possession by a Spirit is not YET included in the Official Book of Don’ts because of the very reason that has been discussed above – no one knows anything much about it, it seems an extremely rare condition that is, in theory, not supposed to be harmful, and apparently the fact that a Spirit could be corrupted into (something close to) a demon is news to everyone. Including the spirits themselves.

Merrill thinks they are both the same thing, except she doesn’t find either a base for moral judgments.

It could be that after Anders’ actions in DA2, the Chantry scribblers are busy rewriting their guidelines to include a paragraph on Spirits (if they know a Spirit was involved – I’m not sure if it’s a common knowledge).

Although if they do, they will be making an example out of a very unfortunate, accidental, unique and in my eyes tragic situation. With the combination of a demon-spirit, an unstable and desperate mage host and the Taint, I’m surprised Anders hasn’t turned into a giant brood mother or something.

Modifié par Ivucci, 10 mai 2012 - 12:38 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Ivucci wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Spirits are neither benovelent or malicious. When they possesses a host they feed on their host emotion and turn into that form like Spirit of Valor, Spirit of Justice ( Kristoff ), Spirit of Vengence ( Anders ) and Spirit of Faith (Wynne )

I don’t think this is correct. Justice was Justice before merging with Anders, and he was Justice for some time after merging as well.

The Spirit  possessed Kristoff's body before Anders. Kristoff nature/behaviour feed it with Justice. And Anders turn it into Vengence. Depends on friendship/rivalry - ( I hate companion's friendship/rivalry path.)

Ivucci wrote...
Or, we have another option – not to follow every Chantry’s opinion on every damned thing in the world.

I'm not sure I get this. The Chantry obviously don't kill a dwarf if he/she isn't an Andrastian. The Chantry never preach Sten about the Maker either. Where do you get this idea?

Ivucci wrote...

It could be that after Anders’ actions in DA2, the Chantry scribblers are busy rewriting their guidelines to include a paragraph on Spirits (if they know a Spirit was involved – I’m not sure if it’s a common knowledge).

The abomination codex, The Circle of Magi Codex, The Fade and etc..  can be found in DAO, Awkening and various other DLC before DA 2 even exist.. We know them enough to identify,categorize and understand some of their characteristic.  

Ivucci wrote...
Although if they do, they will be making an example out of a very unfortunate, accidental, unique and in my eyes tragic situation. With the combination of a demon-spirit, an unstable and desperate mage host and the Taint, I’m surprised Anders hasn’t turned into a giant brood mother or something.

He can't change into giant brood mother because he is not possessed by demon. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 10 mai 2012 - 01:10 .

[Reznore57]

I don't think the chantry is a reaction to mages being dangerous as individual.
I tend to think it's a reaction against Tevinter , they tried to get power back in the hands of "normal " mortal.
And i agree with it to some degree , because I did write mage work well in small community...I believe it.
But among human , the most divided race , mages and their firepower could change the balance of power on many level.
Whether all mages unite , and what keep them from ruling again ?Pretty much nothing.
Or take side for a country , a noble whatever , it could be dramatic.

And the templars are the only ones who can fight mages as equal , except they have a big problem , it's not natural .Cut the templars from their lyrium smugglers and they're done.

Sadly Thedas isn't a world big on compromise ...so letting mages and their power running free with a big unknow on what their intentions are ...and since they're such difference between a poor guy, a city elf , and a noble , chances are something bound to happen on some level.

And we have the qunari , which are pretty extreme with their mages , but we don't know why.
They almost act like it's contagious , maybe they had a bad history with some form of mind control...

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
You DO realize that part of the narrative of DA2 is that when the spirit of Justice joined with Anders, he became a demon of Vengeance?  Not a spirit, a demon. 

There's a big inconsistency in the lore here.  If Gaider has said demons are fundamentally different and cause meatbag abominations...  then either Justice never became Vengeance or neither of them is actually a demon.  Because, clearly, Anders retains himself in addition to Justice and never becomes the mindless abomination that demons supposedly create.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages are put in circles because they are dangerous, and this is the only practical solution.
Because they are put in there some resort to blood magic.
So what? You root out the week, pathetic fools more easily .

Mages are put in circles because hundreds of years ago they volunteered for it in order to gain freedom to practice their art.  Sometime after that, the Chantry decided to put out that mages were too dangerous to be allowed their freedom.  Given all the other societies mentioned repeatedly in this thread, the tired old argument that locking them up is the only solution is just not working.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Spirits are neither benovelent or malicious. When they possesses a host
they feed on their host emotion and turn into that form like Spirit of
Valor, Spirit of Justice ( Kristoff ), Spirit of Vengence ( Anders ) and
Spirit of Faith (Wynne ) 

No, they clearly have their identities before possessing or co-habiting with a mortal.  Justice is Justice in the Fade long before he comes in contact with either Kristoff's body or Anders.  The Spirit of Valor hasn't inhabited anyone that we know of.  There are desire demons and hunger demons etc. wandering about the Fade when we go there.

It's important for you to establish the difference because what is
hunted down by the Chantry is abomination and not spirit possession.

If one version benevolently co-exists with the host and provides extra power fine, if the other version wipes out the host's mind and becomes a mindless killer, fine.  But how the Chantry feels about it is based on their own motivations.

I'm aware of Gav's post. She/he tries to suggest that Chantry is to be
blamed on all accounts.  That is why I bring out names that do not have
any relevance to the Chantry.

I lay the blame for nearly all of it on the Chantry.  I did qualify my post about that point for a reason, it wasn't an accident. 

I think you have to really put some thought into what happens to a person who is either hunted their whole life (because they aren't in the circle) or raised by people who tell them they are cursed, dangerous and untrustworthy.  I don't have kids and I don't know who else on this board does, but even I know that a big part of successfully raising kids is to teach them faith in themselves and good values.  You do not take a 6 year old and drill into their heads that they can never be trusted, they are magnets for evil and nothing more than beasts with the faces of men AND expect them to turn out mentally healthy and ready to defend themselves against temptation.  You are basically teaching them that defending against temptation is futile, because 1) they can't succeed forever and 2) they can't ever actually earn your trust anyway.  The Chantry does this to CHILDREN who've been stolen from their families locked up with strangers who constantly watch them with suspicion and occasionally abuse them for sport.

If you think that situation is HELPING defend Thedas from mages, then I suggest you re-read all the posts about how other cultures don't seem to be abomination factories despite having free mages.  Perhaps because their mages are taught that they are worthy of respect and trust so long as they act accordingly.  People take those things to heart and nearly all children will grow into adults who value trust and friendship if they are given the chance.

And any mage who still breaks the rules and turns into a power hungry tyrant or mindless abaomination can still be hunted down and slaughtered as they deserve to be.

[GavrielKay]

An excerpt from the "Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons" codex:

Typically, we misuse the term "spirit" to refer only to the benign, or at least less malevolent, creatures of the Fade, but in truth, all the denizens of the realm beyond the Veil are spirits. As the Chant of Light notes, everything within the Fade is a mimicry of our world. (A poor imitation, for the spirits do not remotely understand what they are copying. It is no surprise that much of the Fade appears like a manuscript translated from Tevinter into Orlesian and back again by drunken initiates.)

So apparently Gaider is contradicting game lore.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Spirits are neither benovelent or malicious. When they possesses a host
they feed on their host emotion and turn into that form like Spirit of
Valor, Spirit of Justice ( Kristoff ), Spirit of Vengence ( Anders ) and
Spirit of Faith (Wynne ) 

No, they clearly have their identities before possessing or co-habiting with a mortal.  Justice is Justice in the Fade long before he comes in contact with either Kristoff's body or Anders.  The Spirit of Valor hasn't inhabited anyone that we know of.  There are desire demons and hunger demons etc. wandering about the Fade when we go there

How do you know Justice is Justice in the Fade?  And How do you know Spirit of Valor hasn't inhibit anyone? 

There is no reference that indicate emotion exist in the fade. Without living being there is no emotion. Without emotion, spirit cannot manifest all by itself.

When you rescue Connor, can you identify all those wanderig spirits? 

GavrielKay wrote.

If one version benevolently co-exists with the host and provides extra power fine, if the other version wipes out the host's mind and becomes a mindless killer, fine.  But how the Chantry feels about it is based on their own motivations.

The Chantry only interested in demonic possession. They don't care about Justice or Valor or Faith or Vengence. Do you really think Irving wouldn't know anything about spirit of Faith that possessed Wynne? Do you honesly believe the chantry don't know anything about the Rivainis being possessed by spirits? 

GavrielKay wrote.


I lay the blame for nearly all of it on the Chantry.  I did qualify my post about that point for a reason, it wasn't an accident.

I only reply to this statement. Your prejudice against the chantry wouldn't help you to see things clearly. A lot of your reasoning can easily confuse you because you process the data in wrong way. I am not saying the chantry is right. I'm not a supporter of the chantry Chantry's lore bores me to death.  I couldn'r care less about their law. My character always plot shielded by BioWare and all those chantry rules don't always apply to my character, anyway. But you need to maintain some neutrality at certain point to view both side's story. Which lead to my question"  

What IF the Chantry and the Templar never exist to imprison the mages? Would Thedas be the same as it was before Andraste? Or would the world we know now be a better place for everyone under the Imperium? 

Just think about it. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 10 mai 2012 - 05:44 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

GavrielKay wrote...

An excerpt from the "Beyond the Veil: Spirits and Demons" codex:

Typically, we misuse the term "spirit" to refer only to the benign, or at least less malevolent, creatures of the Fade, but in truth, all the denizens of the realm beyond the Veil are spirits. As the Chant of Light notes, everything within the Fade is a mimicry of our world. (A poor imitation, for the spirits do not remotely understand what they are copying. It is no surprise that much of the Fade appears like a manuscript translated from Tevinter into Orlesian and back again by drunken initiates.)

So apparently Gaider is contradicting game lore.

Nope. The the same codex you are using has this entry:

We classify as demons those spirits who identify themselves with darker human emotions and ideas

The codex do distinguish between just spirit and demon. It amusing how those idiots lore scripter like to twist words.Sigh I always wonder why Thedas lore is written like a fan-fiction.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 10 mai 2012 - 05:55 .

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
How do you know Justice is Justice in the Fade?  And How do you know Spirit of Valor hasn't inhibit anyone?

We fight with Justice in the Blackmarsh Undying quest in the Fade.  Before he gets sucked into the mortal world when our party does.  He is clearly Justice in the Fade, calling for justice for the people trapped in the marsh.  He is clearly shocked by the mortal realm and by inhabiting a corpse - such that I highly doubt he's done it before.

There is no reference that indicate emotion exist in the fade. Without living being there is no emotion. Without emotion, spirit cannot manifest all by itself.

The codex says the spirits view mortal minds while they sleep and end up emulating some emotion they find there.  This is not the same as possession.

Do you really think Irving wouldn't know anything about spirit of Faith that possessed Wynne? Do you honesly believe the chantry don't know anything about the Rivainis being possessed by spirits?

I'm at a loss of why that would matter.

What IF the Chantry and the Templar never exist to imprison the mages? Would Thedas be the same as it was before Andraste? Or would the world we know now be a better place for everyone under the Imperium?

Just think about it.

I wonder why you're so sure that the result would be more like the Imperium than the Dalish or Rivaini or Chasind, or even for that matter, the Qunari.

Even the Chantry didn't always believe that mages needed to be locked up.  It happened after the formation of the Chantry and their choice of Andrate as the primary sect.

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Nope. The the same codex you are using has this entry:

We classify as demons those spirits who identify themselves with darker human emotions and ideas

The codex do distinguish between just spirit and demon. It amusing how those idiots lore scripter like to twist words.Sigh I always wonder why Thedas lore is written like a fan-fiction.

Um, that's still saying they are all spirits and we just call them demons when they represent emotions we consider negative.  It is the same thing the rest of the codex says. 

They are all the Maker's first children, all the same "stuff" and they just fall into categories depeneding on whether people consider them positive or negative.  And, since the negative ones are more likely to covet mortality and destruction, those are the ones mages are typically instructed to beware of.