629 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
And risk loosing thousands of innocent lives, tearing the veils all over world, allowing demons and abominations roaming freely in the process like Avernus and Pharamond had did? Sure, why not. At least my new PC has some mess to clean up.

Given Pharamond's state after his Tranquility is reversed (which, since you haven't read the book, his state is what you'd expect if someone who hadn't had to deal with emotions for years suddenly got them all back), I don't think the big goal here would be to reverse Tranquility in all current cases, but to call a halt to creating new Tranquils.  It has been the Chantry's go-to method for neutralizing mages without having to actually kill them.  It lets them feel all warm and fuzzy about letting the mage live while also getting a lifelong servant.  (I'm not fond of the rite as you might guess.)  But is it predicated on being a permanent solution, the one way short of death that guarantees no one will have to worry about that particular mage ever again.

Now that it is revealed to be reversible, that whole premise disappears.

[Silfren]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

@Silfren, I don't read Asunder. So it difficult for me to properly assess the situation and make use of the information given. So I only reply what I think  the reason.

Edit: Nevermind. After I read your reply regarding Connor possession, I've decided not answer the reason as to why things happen the way they do. It's pointless discussion.

Then why bother bringing it up?  If you're not going to address what your issue is with my reply about Connor's possession, why go out of your way to say anything at all?

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
And risk loosing thousands of innocent lives, tearing the veils all over world, allowing demons and abominations roaming freely in the process like Avernus and Pharamond had did? Sure, why not. At least my new PC has some mess to clean up.

Given Pharamond's state after his Tranquility is reversed (which, since you haven't read the book, his state is what you'd expect if someone who hadn't had to deal with emotions for years suddenly got them all back), I don't think the big goal here would be to reverse Tranquility in all current cases, but to call a halt to creating new Tranquils.  It has been the Chantry's go-to method for neutralizing mages without having to actually kill them.  It lets them feel all warm and fuzzy about letting the mage live while also getting a lifelong servant.  (I'm not fond of the rite as you might guess.)  But is it predicated on being a permanent solution, the one way short of death that guarantees no one will have to worry about that particular mage ever again.

Now that it is revealed to be reversible, that whole premise disappears.

With the new emphasis from Gaider and Asunder on how Tranquil totally retain their free will, for realz, totally, I wonder if there would be any Tranquil who would ask to be restored.  I don't actually see it happening, but at this point I wouldn't put it past the Devs to do something like that in a shallow attempt to add mystery and intrigue.

Modifié par Silfren, 12 mai 2012 - 06:01 .

[Reznore57]

Yeah some tranquil in Asunder show motivations .
Again like possession it's hard to tell exactly what part of mages is cut from the fade.
I tend to call it the "soul" because emotionless rings a little bit like sociopath to me .(well soulless doesn't sound better , snif :s)
They look a bit like an empty shell , with a bit of rainman going on .
But if i remember well Owen in DA:0 show a tiny bit of distress when the tower is under demon siege.
He went back to where he worked because it was familliar to him.

[Silfren]

To get back to the exploration of the thread topic...

Now that the question's been forced, since all the Circles know that Tranquility can be reversed, I don't think there is any going back.  Of course, one solution the templars could fall back on is to declare that since Tranquility has a fatal flaw, that they will now just kill any mages deemed too weak to handle their powers.  With the Divine supporting reform, though, it doesn't appear that the Chantry will back this (unless the Divine is deposed and the Chantry re-built under the guidance of the Seekers, but I digress).

I note that Asunder also states that Adralla was not just a native of Tevinter, but specifically that she was a magister.  So much for the idea that all magisters everywhere are power-hungry, blood magic loving, slave-keeping monsters.  And as I recall, there are several references in the book about this bit of knowledge or that bit of known research...all coming out of Tevinter.  It's kind of hard to argue against the fact that Tevinter, for all its faults, terrible as they are, is the undisputed leader of advancement in magical knowledge and ongoing research. 

It would be a little difficult to do this in the middle of a many-fronted war, but in the interest of exploring new ways of dealing with magic, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the Divine to look directly into Tevinter's own methods.  How this could be done, I don't know, but I do think that would be the place to start.  Of course, that itself would require cooperation between the Orthodox Chantry and the Imperial one.  But who knows?  It could be a new era for Thedas...overtures of peace and negotiation between the two empires.  And that's not an entirely unthinkable notion, under the circumstances, especially with a looming Qunari menage that threatens everyone. 

We know that after every martial conflict, the Circle gains prestige for the role it plays in defending a people.  And in real world history, we see that war can have a positive effect in certain ways: women going to work in mass numbers during WW2 had a significant role in advancing women's rights, and racial integration in the armies went a long way toward challenging individual and societal assumptions.  So perhaps a widescale, war-to-end-all wars is what Thedas needs in order to move past the stagnation in its assumptions on mages.'

Anyway, that little meandering thought process is done.  For a concrete suggestion on how to deal with free mages: I personally think the first step is to dispense with the practice of keeping templar abilities a closely guarded secret.  Asunder, like many other things, also states that lyrium is where templars derive their abilities.  So first we need to cease and desist with the Chantry's habit of using lyrium as a choke-collar to control its templars, and also invest some research into combating lyrium's deleterious effects.  For that, we can start by looking to the dwarves.  Why not open up templar abilities?  Go ahead and keep a specialized mage-fighting force like the templars and Seekers, but extend the same training to regular soldiers and guards as well.  Either station a certain number of de facto templars with each unit of regular peacekeepers, or simply extend the same training to those peacekeepers. 

Seems like dwarves would make a good choice.  Given what we know about them, it may not be possible for dwarves to gain any abilities from lyrium consumption.  But wouldn't their innate magical resistance make them good choices for templar-esque soldiers anyway?  I'd think this would be a good option to extend to the casteless, and the surface dwarves who've been rejected by Orzammar.  One King Bhelen might be amenable to the idea...

Make the Litany of Adralla, and any other magical defenses we come across, widely available and encourage its memorization.  Origins and Asunder both drive home that one need not be a mage to effectively use it.  

I think that's the first and best line of defense: make the mage-fighting abilities available across the board and stop treating it like a deep, dark secret.  The latter does nothing but reinforce the belief that the Chantry is far less interested in protecting against mages than in protecting its own status.

Modifié par Silfren, 12 mai 2012 - 06:44 .

[Silfren]

Reznore57 wrote...

Yeah some tranquil in Asunder show motivations .
Again like possession it's hard to tell exactly what part of mages is cut from the fade.
I tend to call it the "soul" because emotionless rings a little bit like sociopath to me .(well soulless doesn't sound better , snif :s)
They look a bit like an empty shell , with a bit of rainman going on .
But if i remember well Owen in DA:0 show a tiny bit of distress when the tower is under demon siege.
He went back to where he worked because it was familliar to him.

I don't think Owain showed any emotion at all--and distress by definition is never tiny.  He knew that the demons raging around the Tower could result in his death, and he knew it was prudent to be somewhere else.  Had he been distressed he wouldn't have just calmly walked back to his storeroom just because it was familiar--he would have been pounding on Wynne's barrier for her to open it.

Owain is, for me, the proper example of what I would expect from a person who has been emotionally neutered.  He shows zero emotion and just stands nonchalantly amid carnage and chaos.  The way the other Tranquil in the tower behave.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Reznore57 wrote...

About non mage being made tranquil , what i found interesting is the case of dwarves.
They have no link to the fade , they don't dream but they have nothing in common with tranquil.

Well, dwarves do dream, but they don't enter the Fade when they dream.

Silfren wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

About non mage being made tranquil , what i found interesting is the case of dwarves.
They have no link to the fade , they don't dream but they have nothing in common with tranquil.
I tend to think it's because their "soul" is link to the earth while others is link to the fade or something beyond the fade.
I don't remember if we have seen any case of dwarves possesion .Though i don't think it's impossible...

I've wondered this, too.  It's weak, but my guess is that with dwarves, they've got some kind of serious resistance, probably explainable via centuries of lyrium exposure.

Dwarven ability to handle lyrium comes from the fact that they don't naturally enter the Fade. David Gaider had commented on it a long time ago. Here's the link. As far as I know, there is actually no evidence to suggest that lyrium exposure causes anything in dwarves, apart from mild symptoms of mental imbalance, as evidenced by that dwarven merchant (forget his name) in DA:O.

A true immunity in every sense of the word: they possess the same connection all other non-Tranquiled beings do,

Which connection?

but one that has a rock-solid, impenetrable immune system that demons can't get past.  Whereas Tranquil don't simply have a strong immunity, but a fundamental lack of the thing which would need that immunity.  A car with some basic equipment missing from its system that makes the car faulty in some ways, but still driveable, versus a car with its entire engine removed.  Or a vulcan with the absolute ability to control their emotions in totality, versus the Tranquil creatures with no emotions to need controlling in the first place.

That would be one way of looking at it, sure.

Dwarves have the advantage over tranquils in the sense that they don't lose the emotional part of their selves, whereas tranquil do; apart from the fact that dwarves are innately born with it. However, as a side-effect for dwarves, they don't have any mages among them, which probably comes directly from the fact that they are naturally disconnected from The Fade. I think it is also suggested somewhere that surface dwarves lose their resistance to magic; whether that means that they regain their connection to The Fade is unknown, I think, although one might draw such a conclusion, if their disconnection from The Fade is the only thing that gives them that resistance in the very first place.

Now, there are some interesting things to explore. For instance, why would Gaider be so enigmatic about what causes dwarves not to enter The Fade? And, for me, the other question is whether dwarves lost such a connection somewhere along the line, meaning that they might have had such a connection at some point in the past, but lost it (spontaneously? over time?). The third question is why nobody explores such questions more in the DA universe - I mean not having a connection to The Fade and not losing emotions ought to be a big thing, right?

[Silfren]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

About non mage being made tranquil , what i found interesting is the case of dwarves.
They have no link to the fade , they don't dream but they have nothing in common with tranquil.

Well, dwarves do dream, but they don't enter the Fade when they dream.

Are you sure?  I thought there's been lore that stated flat out that dwarves don't dream.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

About non mage being made tranquil , what i found interesting is the case of dwarves.
They have no link to the fade , they don't dream but they have nothing in common with tranquil.
I tend to think it's because their "soul" is link to the earth while others is link to the fade or something beyond the fade.
I don't remember if we have seen any case of dwarves possesion .Though i don't think it's impossible...

I've wondered this, too.  It's weak, but my guess is that with dwarves, they've got some kind of serious resistance, probably explainable via centuries of lyrium exposure.

Dwarven ability to handle lyrium comes from the fact that they don't naturally enter the Fade. David Gaider had commented on it a long time ago. Here's the link. As far as I know, there is actually no evidence to suggest that lyrium exposure causes anything in dwarves, apart from mild symptoms of mental imbalance, as evidenced by that dwarven merchant (forget his name) in DA:O.

Silfren wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
A true immunity in every sense of the word: they possess the same connection all other non-Tranquiled beings do,

Which connection?

I was positing that maybe they have the same internal wiring that connects everyone to the Fade, but some kind of lyrium-derived immunity surrounding it.  

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Silfren wrote...
but one that has a rock-solid, impenetrable immune system that demons can't get past.  Whereas Tranquil don't simply have a strong immunity, but a fundamental lack of the thing which would need that immunity.  A car with some basic equipment missing from its system that makes the car faulty in some ways, but still driveable, versus a car with its entire engine removed.  Or a vulcan with the absolute ability to control their emotions in totality, versus the Tranquil creatures with no emotions to need controlling in the first place.

That would be one way of looking at it, sure.

Dwarves have the advantage over tranquils in the sense that they don't lose the emotional part of their selves, whereas tranquil do; apart from the fact that dwarves are innately born with it. However, as a side-effect for dwarves, they don't have any mages among them, which probably comes directly from the fact that they are naturally disconnected from The Fade. I think it is also suggested somewhere that surface dwarves lose their resistance to magic; whether that means that they regain their connection to The Fade is unknown, I think, although one might draw such a conclusion, if their disconnection from The Fade is the only thing that gives them that resistance in the very first place.

I remember reading something about surface dwarves losing their magical resistance too, now you've brought it up, which kind of shoots my other suggestion down, dang it.  But doesn't this just mean that it would behoove someone to study this dwarven resistance in detail?

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Now, there are some interesting things to explore. For instance, why would Gaider be so enigmatic about what causes dwarves not to enter The Fade? And, for me, the other question is whether dwarves lost such a connection somewhere along the line, meaning that they might have had such a connection at some point in the past, but lost it (spontaneously? over time?). The third question is why nobody explores such questions more in the DA universe - I mean not having a connection to The Fade and not losing emotions ought to be a big thing, right?

I would guess that part of it comes from Orzammar's traditional resistance to extensive dealings with the surface.  

Modifié par Silfren, 12 mai 2012 - 07:31 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sister Petrine's account of how and why the mages ended up "cheerily" going into this arrangement makes it sound relatively peaceful.  Other than the Divine pitching a fit at having her authority questioned and her candles doused, there isn't any hint of violence or mages being a big problem.  As you say, I would have expected mages to actively fight back if the decision had been entirely on the part of the Chantry to round them up and incarcerate them.

But now you've got this brand new agreement with the mages that says the Chantry is going to house them and guard them.  Chantry Mothers and Sisters aren't going to be doing a lot of guarding.  The Chantry needs some trained fighters, people who know how to handle themselves against mages.  Cue the Inquisition, a.k.a. the Seekers of Truth who've been hunting rogue mages for a while. 

The Chantry now strikes a deal with the Seekers to bring it all together.  They create the Templars to act as constant guards, the Seekers to watch over the Templars and take on difficult cases and the Circles themselves where the mages are going to be housed.

If we're determined to take both codices as truth then I think that works.  It all happened at about the same time, with the mages agreeing because they foolishly thought they'd get MORE freedom out of it, the Chantry aggreeing because now they'd control the mages and have just about exclusive access to them, and the Seekers agreeing because they've been about trying to protect folks from mages for a while.

I think you're mostly right on this one.

However, I tend to look at it slightly differently. If we imagine for a minute what the circumstances might have been for mages at the time of the inception of the Circles, with the Inquistion hunting them (probably not making a differentiation between good and bad mages), the general distrust among the masses after the time that Tevinter was sacked by Andraste and her armies, then it seems to me that the Circle system must have been somewhat beneficial to the mages. I don't think therefore that it would have been some sort of a "cheery" arrangement, but rather a relatively better-off arrangement (a lesser evil, if you will), considering the circumstances, and considering that one's hunter had suddenly become one's guardians - in a sense, all immediately apparent problems solved.

But that was 900 years ago. It is clear that at the time of inception, there was no RoA, at least, since that came about some 200 years later. So it seems clear that those mages had not consented to it. I have no clue about the harrowing, and whether that was agreed to or not originally by the mages. So it seems clear that additional "clauses" were added to the agreement as time went by, and mages already institutionalized by the system probably had lesser resistance to them.

And, lastly, did mages get more freedom out of the arrangement at that time? Probably not, but their chances of survival went up, considering how the circumstances were. So, it might not have been a totally foolish arrangement. Should they have had more foresight? Perhaps. But most people, I think, consider immediate, short term solutions better than those on the longer term, which one might consider foolish.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Silfren wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Well, dwarves do dream, but they don't enter the Fade when they dream.

Are you sure?  I thought there's been lore that stated flat out that dwarves don't dream.

There is this guy in the very link I posted stating that the tip on the loading screen of DA:O explicitly makes that claim: "when dwarves dream, they do not go to the Fade." And anyway Gaider has said the same thing.

Silfren wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Silfren wrote...
A true immunity in every sense of the word: they possess the same connection all other non-Tranquiled beings do,

Which connection?

I was positing that maybe they have the same internal wiring that connects everyone to the Fade, but some kind of lyrium-derived immunity surrounding it.

I think all of it has to do with the very fact that the dwarves are kind of cut-off naturally from The Fade. Their resistance to magic and their ability to work with lyrium comes because of that fact. Gaider is intentionally keeping the reason why dwarves are cut off from The Fade a secret, probably as an option to develop a future story-line. Maybe he's already developed it and we've not yet realized it. *shrug*

Silfren wrote...
I remember reading something about surface dwarves losing their magical resistance too, now you've brought it up, which kind of shoots my other suggestion down, dang it.  But doesn't this just mean that it would behoove someone to study this dwarven resistance in detail?

Logically, yes. Perhaps one explanation would be that it might not be in the best interests of some.

Silfren wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Now, there are some interesting things to explore. For instance, why would Gaider be so enigmatic about what causes dwarves not to enter The Fade? And, for me, the other question is whether dwarves lost such a connection somewhere along the line, meaning that they might have had such a connection at some point in the past, but lost it (spontaneously? over time?). The third question is why nobody explores such questions more in the DA universe - I mean not having a connection to The Fade and not losing emotions ought to be a big thing, right?

I would guess that part of it comes from Orzammar's traditional resistance to extensive dealings with the surface. 

I think you're right. I remember assisting a dwarf to go learn at the Circle in Ferelden. I hope something came of it for both sides.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 12 mai 2012 - 07:52 .

[Silfren]

[quote]MichaelFinnegan wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Well, dwarves do dream, but they don't enter the Fade when they dream.[/quote]

Are you sure?  I thought there's been lore that stated flat out that dwarves don't dream.[/quote]
There is this guy in the very link I posted stating that the tip on the loading screen of DA:O explicitly makes that claim: "when dwarves dream, they do not go to the Fade." And anyway Gaider has said the same thing.[/quote]

Right.  I was just about to go and edit my post to reflect that when I saw this post.  I just read the Gaider quote.  It's interesting...I had always guessed that Dwarves were barred from the Fade due to over-exposure to lyrium, not the other way around.  Now I'm all curious as to what exactly it is that bars them from the Fade.  Especially in light of Sandal and what he has to say...and the striking evidence we have that at one time there was at least one branch of dwarves who had magical ability.

[quote]Silfren wrote...
[quote]MichaelFinnegan wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
A true immunity in every sense of the word: they possess the same connection all other non-Tranquiled beings do, [/quote]
Which connection?[/quote]

I was positing that maybe they have the same internal wiring that connects everyone to the Fade, but some kind of lyrium-derived immunity surrounding it.[/quote]
I think all of it has to do with the very fact that the dwarves are kind of cut-off naturally from The Fade. Their resistance to magic and their ability to work with lyrium comes because of that fact. Gaider is intentionally keeping the reason why dwarves are cut off from The Fade a secret, probably as an option to develop a future story-line. Maybe he's already developed it and we've not yet realized it. *shrug*[/quote]

It would make sense, given the interrelationship between lyrium, magic, and the Fade (and the taint).  It raises all sorts of interesting questions, especially with all the tantalizing hints dropped in DA2 about it.

[GavrielKay]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
I think you're mostly right on this one.

I think we agree completely.  It is exactly for things like the RoA and Harrowing and such, that don't seem to have come out of the original agreement that I say "foolishly."  Because I suppose the assumption was that the Chantry wouldn't take advantage of now having all the mages locked away in towers with former Inquisitors as guards.  The mages might have naively hoped that by willingly placing themselves in the care of the Chantry and agreeing not to practice magic at large, that things would go well from there.

I do think that scenario makes sense of both codices more so than some other folks' assumptions that the Chantry and Seekers felt mages had to be mass incarcerated or else.  Neither codex indicates that and the Sister Petrine one pretty much refutes it.  No one appears to have thought at the time of circle creation that it was absolutely necessary because free mages were just too dangerous.  The Chantry and Seekers were concerned about free mages and magic, but not to the point that of their own accord they forcibly rounded them up and locked them away.  It was a compromise between 3 parties that, at least at the beginning, everyone felt benefitted them.

[GavrielKay]

How about a totally wild, off the cuff and unresearched theory: The Primeval Thaig dwarves were mages connected to the Fade as the other races, but due to their experimentation with red lyrium and its evils, they blackened the Golden City and were cast permanently out of the Fade by the Maker. In shame they left the Thaig and formed dwarven societies with no recollection of that past and no real explanation why they did not share the other races' connection to the Fade?

[MichaelFinnegan]

Silfren wrote...

Right.  I was just about to go and edit my post to reflect that when I saw this post.  I just read the Gaider quote.  It's interesting...I had always guessed that Dwarves were barred from the Fade due to over-exposure to lyrium, not the other way around.  Now I'm all curious as to what exactly it is that bars them from the Fade.  Especially in light of Sandal and what he has to say...and the striking evidence we have that at one time there was at least one branch of dwarves who had magical ability.

You know, Gaider in an interview recently kind of hinted that Sandal is a sort of enigmatic character who'd appear in all games/books? I was especially dejected reading that because I came off with a sense that he might not have any more significance in the stories beyond that - that there might be no "revelations" that might happen, that he'd simply keep doing whatever he's doing. Something about Sandal having a probability of 1% at stating that prophecy, which in itself was vaguely connected with what might happen in the future.

I don't have the link handy at the moment, though.

I'm kind of postive that Gaider has said that the Primeval Thaig would be explored further. Again, sorry about not having the link handy. I vaguely remember it was in response to a post/topic by Rifnino.

Silfren wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
I think all of it has to do with the very fact that the dwarves are kind of cut-off naturally from The Fade. Their resistance to magic and their ability to work with lyrium comes because of that fact. Gaider is intentionally keeping the reason why dwarves are cut off from The Fade a secret, probably as an option to develop a future story-line. Maybe he's already developed it and we've not yet realized it. *shrug*

It would make sense, given the interrelationship between lyrium, magic, and the Fade (and the taint).  It raises all sorts of interesting questions, especially with all the tantalizing hints dropped in DA2 about it.

Agreed, but having explored it in depth earlier, and having got nowhere with it, I'm kind of disappointed by it all (impatience perhaps?). There are too many loose ends, too many hints that seem to lead nowhere. I guess that is a kind of side-effect of the way the writers have gone about the whole DA franchise. I remember a time when such things were hotly debated in the forums, and nowadays such discussions seem to have died down. It used to be fun mulling over such things at that time, though.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

How about a totally wild, off the cuff and unresearched theory: The Primeval Thaig dwarves were mages connected to the Fade as the other races, but due to their experimentation with red lyrium and its evils, they blackened the Golden City and were cast permanently out of the Fade by the Maker. In shame they left the Thaig and formed dwarven societies with no recollection of that past and no real explanation why they did not share the other races' connection to the Fade?

Then I would say that the Chantry owes an apology and reparations at once to Tevinter and all human and elven mages.

[Silfren]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Right.  I was just about to go and edit my post to reflect that when I saw this post.  I just read the Gaider quote.  It's interesting...I had always guessed that Dwarves were barred from the Fade due to over-exposure to lyrium, not the other way around.  Now I'm all curious as to what exactly it is that bars them from the Fade.  Especially in light of Sandal and what he has to say...and the striking evidence we have that at one time there was at least one branch of dwarves who had magical ability.

You know, Gaider in an interview recently kind of hinted that Sandal is a sort of enigmatic character who'd appear in all games/books? I was especially dejected reading that because I came off with a sense that he might not have any more significance in the stories beyond that - that there might be no "revelations" that might happen, that he'd simply keep doing whatever he's doing. Something about Sandal having a probability of 1% at stating that prophecy, which in itself was vaguely connected with what might happen in the future.

One percent probability?  That explains all the damn clicking I had to do to trigger the damn prophecy.  Bioware owes me for the blister *holds up mouse-clicking finger in righteous indignation*

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Silfren wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
I think all of it has to do with the very fact that the dwarves are kind of cut-off naturally from The Fade. Their resistance to magic and their ability to work with lyrium comes because of that fact. Gaider is intentionally keeping the reason why dwarves are cut off from The Fade a secret, probably as an option to develop a future story-line. Maybe he's already developed it and we've not yet realized it. *shrug*

It would make sense, given the interrelationship between lyrium, magic, and the Fade (and the taint).  It raises all sorts of interesting questions, especially with all the tantalizing hints dropped in DA2 about it.

Agreed, but having explored it in depth earlier, and having got nowhere with it, I'm kind of disappointed by it all (impatience perhaps?). There are too many loose ends, too many hints that seem to lead nowhere. I guess that is a kind of side-effect of the way the writers have gone about the whole DA franchise. I remember a time when such things were hotly debated in the forums, and nowadays such discussions seem to have died down. It used to be fun mulling over such things at that time, though.

This may not be true, but it certainly seems at times that Bioware makes up the lore they go, and never-you-mind if something they come up with later contradicts the existing lore, or they have a miscommunication amongst the writers and conflicting information makes its way into the canon. 

It would be far, far better to write up the entire story first, at least in its basic plots, with the intended outcomes, and make sure all the relevant bits fit together cohesively.  Come up with the rules for the world first, work out what the exceptions to the rules will be and WHY they operate the way they do, and then write the story around it.  And sorry, but any plot that can't be told without contradicting the existing story...it's right out, no matter how interesting it may be.  If it can't be written to harmonize with the existing story's lore, then it has no business being shoehorned in.

Writing and releasing a fully-realized story, and only writing future stories later, as add-ons this is the procedure that tends to breed tons of minor and sometimes not-so-minor inconsistencies in the lore.  It happens in any storytelling medium--books, movies, and games alike.

Modifié par Silfren, 12 mai 2012 - 08:32 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

GavrielKay wrote...

I think we agree completely.  It is exactly for things like the RoA and Harrowing and such, that don't seem to have come out of the original agreement that I say "foolishly."  Because I suppose the assumption was that the Chantry wouldn't take advantage of now having all the mages locked away in towers with former Inquisitors as guards.  The mages might have naively hoped that by willingly placing themselves in the care of the Chantry and agreeing not to practice magic at large, that things would go well from there.

I do think that scenario makes sense of both codices more so than some other folks' assumptions that the Chantry and Seekers felt mages had to be mass incarcerated or else.  Neither codex indicates that and the Sister Petrine one pretty much refutes it.  No one appears to have thought at the time of circle creation that it was absolutely necessary because free mages were just too dangerous.  The Chantry and Seekers were concerned about free mages and magic, but not to the point that of their own accord they forcibly rounded them up and locked them away.  It was a compromise between 3 parties that, at least at the beginning, everyone felt benefitted them.

Yes. I'd agree with that. It was a mutual compromise between the mages and the Inquisition, with the Chantry acting as the mediator. I do not fault anyone for it, as I do not clearly know what the circumstances might have been, what the intentions/motivations of all parties were. The best we can do is formulate a likely explanation from what we know, and what you said kind of makes sense.

But I do fault the general sense I get from some folks here that that agreement ought to hold under all circumstances, which clearly appears foolish to me.

[Silfren]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

I think we agree completely.  It is exactly for things like the RoA and Harrowing and such, that don't seem to have come out of the original agreement that I say "foolishly."  Because I suppose the assumption was that the Chantry wouldn't take advantage of now having all the mages locked away in towers with former Inquisitors as guards.  The mages might have naively hoped that by willingly placing themselves in the care of the Chantry and agreeing not to practice magic at large, that things would go well from there.

I do think that scenario makes sense of both codices more so than some other folks' assumptions that the Chantry and Seekers felt mages had to be mass incarcerated or else.  Neither codex indicates that and the Sister Petrine one pretty much refutes it.  No one appears to have thought at the time of circle creation that it was absolutely necessary because free mages were just too dangerous.  The Chantry and Seekers were concerned about free mages and magic, but not to the point that of their own accord they forcibly rounded them up and locked them away.  It was a compromise between 3 parties that, at least at the beginning, everyone felt benefitted them.

Yes. I'd agree with that. It was a mutual compromise between the mages and the Inquisition, with the Chantry acting as the mediator. I do not fault anyone for it, as I do not clearly know what the circumstances might have been, what the intentions/motivations of all parties were. The best we can do is formulate a likely explanation from what we know, and what you said kind of makes sense.

But I do fault the general sense I get from some folks here that that agreement ought to hold under all circumstances, which clearly appears foolish to me.

Something I remember that backs up this theory rather well, I think.  When you do Carver's gift quest in Act 1, the mage who knew Malcolm and Maurevar Carver says something about how things used to be different.  I don't have the full quote, but it's indicative of a time when mages were far more free than they are now...and it's referring to the Circle of Kirkwall.  It's referring to only one generation prior, too, which may mean it doesn't indicate much, as it's clear the oppressive nature of the Circle goes a lot further back than one generation.  But given that Ser Carver apparently did not believe that he had a duty to lock Malcolm in the Circle (and by extension didn't believe that a free mage was an inherent danger, telling on its own), it suggests that the Circles started out one way and progressively worsened over the years.

[MichaelFinnegan]

GavrielKay wrote...

How about a totally wild, off the cuff and unresearched theory: The Primeval Thaig dwarves were mages connected to the Fade as the other races, but due to their experimentation with red lyrium and its evils, they blackened the Golden City and were cast permanently out of the Fade by the Maker. In shame they left the Thaig and formed dwarven societies with no recollection of that past and no real explanation why they did not share the other races' connection to the Fade?

Are you conceding that there is such a thing as the Maker?  But very much likely, yes.

Look at the shaperate memories. They don't have any records prior to some point in time. For instance, they don't have any records of the Primeval Thaig. I suppose it could happen; people might lose track of stuff, and ancient civilizations might entirely disappear. I could guess that they might intentionally not have recorded some stuff. Or maybe the dwarves assisted the magisters of old to enter the Golden City (with the lyrium), and might have got a "concession" in return (being cut off from The Fade - although I don't know why that might be advantageous to them). But that seems far fetched - since it assumes the magisters had such an ability to grant.

As Silfren said there is some connection between the Fade, lyrium (both blue and red), taint, spirts, demons, dwarves, and all that. The worse part is the feeling I get that we might never get a full explanation for it.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Silfren wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

You know, Gaider in an interview recently kind of hinted that Sandal is a sort of enigmatic character who'd appear in all games/books? I was especially dejected reading that because I came off with a sense that he might not have any more significance in the stories beyond that - that there might be no "revelations" that might happen, that he'd simply keep doing whatever he's doing. Something about Sandal having a probability of 1% at stating that prophecy, which in itself was vaguely connected with what might happen in the future.

One percent probability?  That explains all the damn clicking I had to do to trigger the damn prophecy.  Bioware owes me for the blister *holds up mouse-clicking finger in righteous indignation*

Blistered fingers are exactly what he wanted. ) He said something to the effect of two forumers discussing, "What?! Sandal made that prophecy?? I kept on clicking and he didn't say anything in my game!!"

Silfren wrote...
This may not be true, but it certainly seems at times that Bioware makes up the lore they go, and never-you-mind if something they come up with later contradicts the existing lore, or they have a miscommunication amongst the writers and conflicting information makes its way into the canon.

Possible. Let me give you one example. What do you suppose is the kind of power an abomination weilds? This is one post which says that an abomiantion has access to a mage's full power, but here's a codex that states that the power of an abomination depends entirely on the power of the demon possessing the mage. I currently do not know what exactly is the cannon.

It would be far, far better to write up the entire story first, at least in its basic plots, with the intended outcomes, and make sure all the relevant bits fit together cohesively.  Come up with the rules for the world first, work out what the exceptions to the rules will be and WHY they operate the way they do, and then write the story around it.  And sorry, but any plot that can't be told without contradicting the existing story...it's right out, no matter how interesting it may be.  If it can't be written to harmonize with the existing story's lore, then it has no business being shoehorned in.

Writing and releasing a fully-realized story, and only writing future stories later, as add-ons this is the procedure that tends to breed tons of minor and sometimes not-so-minor inconsistencies in the lore.  It happens in any storytelling medium--books, movies, and games alike.

Well, I generally see what you mean. But I think the issue really is the amount of data that needed to be created, and the limited amount of resources creating the content. It is really hard to keep track of all of it. I mean, writing the codexes must have taken some huge effort, not to mention keeping it all consistent. I think this is the reason why the writing team went the way it did, to intentionally give an illusion of inconsistent and unreliable sources. The objective perhaps was never to give full explanations, but rather to focus on current events (i.e. the DA as a timeline and Thedas as the place) and throw in some history here and there, which kind of bothers me to no end, I must admit.

[Reznore57]

In The silent grove , a character talks about a time "before the veil".No further explanation.
But i wrote some crazy theories on different posts about the fade and thedas being one , and getting seperate because of x event.With thedas being the material world and the fade the spiritual world.Like body and soul being seperated.Could explain why demons to go back to Thedas without knowing why , and why some species are still linked to the fade.
I tend to think that for unknown reason dwarves are totaly "earthly " creature now , and like they say their souls goes back to the stone.
Seeing the profane i'm not sure it's a good thing on the long run , it's supposed to be some old dwarves turned into some demony thing who ate lyrium.

And somebody mentions the golden city , i think it's interesting because every race seems to have known a catastrophe , the civilisation of dwarf forgotten , Arlathan , and tevinter imperium.
With Qunari in da2 claiming templars don't even understand the extend of the danger of magic , the qunari might have known problem too.

[GavrielKay]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Are you conceding that there is such a thing as the Maker?  But very much likely, yes.

Only in the game   Fantasy realms often have actual embodiments of the dieties their various residents adhere to.  Of course it also wouldn't surprise me if the Elvhen gods were "real" or there was something more to the "stone" of the dwarves than mere rock.  It was really just a random thought that I put down.  

Look at the shaperate memories. They don't have any records prior to some point in time. For instance, they don't have any records of the Primeval Thaig. I suppose it could happen; people might lose track of stuff, and ancient civilizations might entirely disappear. I could guess that they might intentionally not have recorded some stuff.

I was just thinking that the dwarves really love their history and it goes back a LONG ways.  So, what could happen that would be so bad they'd want to or need to forget it?  Anyway, I don't really know.  I have no idea for example what the time frame is supposed to be for the Thaig, other than really old.  Is it old enough to predate Corypheus' trip to the Fade with the Tevinter magisters?

[GavrielKay]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
The objective perhaps was never to give full explanations, but rather to focus on current events (i.e. the DA as a timeline and Thedas as the place) and throw in some history here and there, which kind of bothers me to no end, I must admit.

I don't need a series of role playing games to be as consistent as a novel for example...  but it would be nice to have a definitive statement from the devs that the story is evolving as they go and things may occassionally be declared an oops if they need to retcon something in order to make the story better.

Then at least we could quit having heated debates about something even the devs aren't really convinced about

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
Owain is, for me, the proper example of what I would expect from a person who has been emotionally neutered.  He shows zero emotion and just stands nonchalantly amid carnage and chaos.  The way the other Tranquil in the tower behave.

Yeah, he has an academic understanding of the danger he is in, but no ability to suffer fear because of it.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

How about a totally wild, off the cuff and unresearched theory: The Primeval Thaig dwarves were mages connected to the Fade as the other races, but due to their experimentation with red lyrium and its evils, they blackened the Golden City and were cast permanently out of the Fade by the Maker. In shame they left the Thaig and formed dwarven societies with no recollection of that past and no real explanation why they did not share the other races' connection to the Fade?

Then I would say that the Chantry owes an apology and reparations at once to Tevinter and all human and elven mages.

Heh.  They'd probably just say "see!  we told you it was mages!" and leave it at that