629 réponses à ce sujet

[keesio74]

GavrielKay wrote...

I wasn't trying to limit ideas, but fresh ones are certainly more fun than old ones. Is there no other possibility that you can think of keesio?

sorry, i am new to DA2 (I picked up the game a month ago for the first time) so I have not read all the thread on tevinter.

For a new suggestion (maybe not so new since again it may have been mentioned to death already):

First off I am making the assumption that the percentage of the general population who have the ability to be a mage is pretty low (5% or less). With that I would guess that suspected mages would mostly go underground or keep it hidden (like Bethany). A select few would be offering their services at a high price to powerful people who can in return protect them from the general populace. Now I suspect that they will be hunted by the governments but the question of how aggressively are they hunted? I think a big part of it is how well (if at all) they "police" themselves. If most of the mages are like Anders, who distrust blood magic, and they take action on the ones who go "too far", then the overall mage "threat" would not be as great as if there was no internal policing. It's like real life where societies will sometimes look the other way a bit as long as it doesn't get out of control. Even if illegal. The mob likes to work on this idea. And they do interal policing of their own if one of their people step out of bounds and draws the negative attention of the law and the rest of the populace. So if they keep each other under control, I think they could exist as an "hidden" underground group. Otherwise if they are hunted very very aggressively, they will flee (unless they remain hidden) to form their own societies but always under the threat of being invaded.

[keesio74]

Urzon wrote...

Basically, a medieval version of the entire X-Men storyline.

Actually this is bang on. I realized that my above thread is basically X-men. professor X and co. try to use their abilities to help people and also police mutants that are hurting others. If they do not, then the ones that cause harm (Magneto, etc) draw so much negative attention that the people will demand their governments to take out all mutants. As long as they do help, people/governments will look the other way and some may even look up to them.

I forgot to mention that if mages try to do a lot to help the common folks (like Anders with his healing), it will do much to help them be "left alone" and even have the people come to their defense (as we saw with Anders). If they let the "evil" ones go unchecked, then people will be screaming for the "mutant solution" like the "tranquil solution"

I wonder if bioware got the whole mage thing from xmen actually.

Modifié par keesio74, 03 mai 2012 - 02:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Except professor X and the mutants wouldn't work in the real, modern world.
I know the orignal story was supposed to be an allegory for gay rights, but it failed utterly. Last time I checked, gay poeple couldn't tear a town apart.

X-Men and DA mages can only work in a perfect world.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Urzon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The more power a single indivudual has, the less he can be trusted.

The irony of that is, that is how every human societies run.

That and you say you can't trust mages with their power, but you still  think it's ok to place their wellbeing (and said power) into the hands of a select few.

But the power of those select few isn't inherent or magical. It comes from numbers and approval.
And those select few cannot be overtaken by deamons at any time.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

What if mages could not be imprisoned?

PURGE!

[AnImpossibleGirl]

They would be hunted down using their phylactery, it would not work...they would find another way to restrain them like the Qunari do to their Saarebas (mages). The Arvaarad holds the leash, so to speak on the Saarebas. The Arvaarad uses a device to control them, that is why they are collared. They are literally treated like dogs. Sure Qunari are more extreme...but Kirkwall especially is not to far off.

Or, they would be slaughtered instead of controlled. This is Thedas. The people have every right to fear mages, and turn and turn again mages show them why.

Anders:"I'll show you why mages are feared..."

Anders period. The entire DA2 game proves this, all the blood mages running rampant. It is not just for the involvement with demons. It is the entire history of the Tevinter Imperium.and the belief in the the Maker and Andraste. Magic is meant to serve man not rule over him. Magic lead to the blights. Or so they say.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

What if mages could not be imprisoned?

PURGE!

VIOLENT PURGE!

[GavrielKay]

Given we're told that mages have been instrumental in defeating invading armies, I'd wonder if it would really be a good idea to purge them.

[Cigne]

I see a child who has unwittingly used magic to... set fire to a barn? quick-freezing a cow? forcing that pretty redhead to give a kiss?

And when discovered, finds out that punishment can be easily avoided, the young mage can go anywhere, anytime. What is going to push a youth toward viewing weaker people as equals, what carrot or stick could you use to teach restraint?

I tend to look at the mage conflict in Thedas from a science fiction perspective, since there is no real parallel in our world. If you view mages as a separate species, then you can consider that the rules of society could develop differently.

Though I think that Gaider and co. will introduce some aspect of magic (somewhere down the line) that will make the question even more troublesome. Cuz they're like that.

(edited for spelling)

Modifié par Cigne, 03 mai 2012 - 09:47 .

[Lazy Jer]

If mages couldn't be inprisoned...well the a lot of things, I suppose.

First of all...tragedy.  Magic isn't feared because of the Chantry, really, the Chantry just offers justification for how people feel about magic, i.e. "it melts my face."  So those parents and/or villagers who turn their kids/neighbor's kids over to the Tempies once they show signs of magic would just be flat out killed.

Second of all...chaos.  You'd have a lot of free mages who would just lead regular decent lives, right up until they moved to a new city and found out that some jerk who can cast a couple of spells at the villagers have the whole town in thrall because, in the words of Allistair...zap...toad.  So some mages would take advantage of freedom to take over and other mages would take out those mages because their making life difficult for everyone else.

Third....the Dwarves would corner the Enchanting trade...no tranquil.

[brushyourteeth]

If that were truly the case, there'd be only one thing we can do....




 http://t0.gstatic.co...s9syGJHkMR_Qh3w



.... I had to.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 04 mai 2012 - 05:42 .

[Urzon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But the power of those select few isn't inherent or magical. It comes from numbers and approval.
And those select few cannot be overtaken by deamons at any time.

Lol.... what?

Kings, Queens, Arls, Lords, Ladies, and Nobles are all born into their positions of power. It may not be magical, but their inherent power is their very blood. They were raised being told that said blood gives them the right to rule people. The people of the land except that, because that is all the know and thats how it has always been. While you might not be able to see it like magic, lords can use their power and influence (given to them at birth) to kill just as many people as mages could, if not more so.

The members of the Chantry aren't born into their positions, but their promotions don't need the approval of the masses. They get promoted by their superiors because of experience, good work ethics, and/or connections, just like a company. The most powerful position of the Chantry, the Divine, is simple chosen by the by the currect Divine. Their are no numbers or approval of the people behind the choice. It is simply a single person passing on their power to another.

They might not be able to be overtaken by demons, but those Kings, Lords, and high ranking Chantry members can still just as easily fall into the vices of man: pride, rage, desire, hunger, and sloth. The difference being that since they aren't mages, the ruling class can get away with it because it could be lawful.

An abomination attacks two villages in the countryside, and it kills most of their populations before being killed. A noble's family can terrorize the whole countryside for generations. They kill anyone that angers them, rape the women, taxes unfairly, and leaves the land to starve. How can the nobles get away with this? Simply, they were born to rule the land. It is their right to do what they wish with it.

There are no democracies in Thedas. All their is, is people born into power ruling over people who aren't.

Modifié par Urzon, 04 mai 2012 - 08:32 .

[Augustei]

Urzon wrote...
The members of the Chantry aren't born into their positions, but their
promotions don't need the approval of the masses. They get promoted by
their superiors because of experience, good work ethics, and/or
connections, just like a company. The most powerful position of the
Chantry, the Divine, is simple chosen by the by the currect Divine.
Their are no numbers or approval of the people behind the choice. It is
simply a single person passing on their power to another.

Not true, The Divine is elected by a unanimous vote of the Grand Cleric's and the Previous Divine can simply recommend who suceeds her (compairable to Orzammar's election of a King).

The Codex of Divine Justinia V reveals this: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry%3A_Divine_Justinia_V

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 05 mai 2012 - 12:23 .

[meanieweenie]

brushyourteeth wrote...

If that were truly the case, there'd be only one thing we can do....




 http://t0.gstatic.co...s9syGJHkMR_Qh3w



.... I had to.

brushyourteeth - I think I love you for this. LOL

[Urzon]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Not true, The Divine is elected by a unanimous vote of the Grand Cleric's and the Previous Divine can simply recommend who suceeds her (compairable to Orzammar's election of a King).

The Codex of Divine Justinia V reveals this: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry%3A_Divine_Justinia_V

Though ritual demanded the decision be unanimous, servants attending the Consensus whispered of heated debate over Dorothea's suitability. Her "worldly" background and demonstrated forgiveness for sinners were held against her; utimately, however, the will of Beatrix III prevailed, and Dorothea began her reign as Justinia V.

With how it's written, it would seem that a good portion of the Grand Clerics didn't see her as suitible. The "though ritual demanded the decision be unanimous" being the big giveway. It would be clear that the decision was anything but.

In the end however, they seemed to have only respected Beatrix's wishes and made Justinia the Divine. I would compare that with a lone jury member, thinking a man's innocent, giving into peer pressure, from the members that think he's guilty,  just to go home.

You have to think, was a true and honest election between a number of suitable candidates? Or was it just a simply ritual the Grand Clerics put on before they simply allow the Divine's heir to succeed her?

I'm guessing the latter.

Modifié par Urzon, 05 mai 2012 - 11:51 .

[Emzamination]

We Templars of the order posses the ability to disrupt any influx of magic.We carve sigils which channel this power into the walls of every circle of magi, preventing the magickers from simply blowing open the door with force.If ever this measure of control is disrupted we simply enact martial law and as stated above, purge all contaminates.Magickers must be locked away at all times to ensure the safety of Ferelden's loyal denizens.They are not people like me.

[GavrielKay]

Urzon wrote...
Though ritual demanded the decision be unanimous[i], servants attending the Consensus whispered of heated debate over Dorothea's suitability. Her "worldly" background and demonstrated forgiveness for sinners were held against her; utimately, however, the will of Beatrix III prevailed, and Dorothea began her reign as Justinia V.

I thought I read somewhere that the previous Divine had suffered from dementia towards the end of her reign?  Did I misremember that?

I think the point still mostly stands though:  democracy isn't exactly prevalent in Thedas.  There doesn't seem to be a lot of social mobility, and even less chance for someone born with common blood to rise above it. 

Mages may have a different sort of power, but mundane power wouldn't really be that much more accessible to those not born to the right family.  And a mundane tyrant can do plenty of damage and with less recourse available to the people too.

[Cigne]

GavrielKay wrote...


I think the point still mostly stands though:  democracy isn't exactly prevalent in Thedas.  There doesn't seem to be a lot of social mobility, and even less chance for someone born with common blood to rise above it. 

Mages may have a different sort of power, but mundane power wouldn't really be that much more accessible to those not born to the right family.  And a mundane tyrant can do plenty of damage and with less recourse available to the people too.

I understand your point, except for the "less recourse available to the people" part. Do you think the people have greater recourse in dealing with bad mages?

And I'd like to raise two points: If one views those born to mundane (or fuedal in this case) power are prone to misuse of that power (as another poster stated) then why should mages be viewed any different? Especially when the topic is how to deal with mages that can't easily be constrained.  The other point is how could Thedas develop into a democratic world-state if there will always exist those born to powers that are not accessible to others? Not earned, not given by others, not taken from others, just theirs by birth.

[DKJaigen]

Cigne wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...


I think the point still mostly stands though:  democracy isn't exactly prevalent in Thedas.  There doesn't seem to be a lot of social mobility, and even less chance for someone born with common blood to rise above it. 

Mages may have a different sort of power, but mundane power wouldn't really be that much more accessible to those not born to the right family.  And a mundane tyrant can do plenty of damage and with less recourse available to the people too.

I understand your point, except for the "less recourse available to the people" part. Do you think the people have greater recourse in dealing with bad mages?

And I'd like to raise two points: If one views those born to mundane (or fuedal in this case) power are prone to misuse of that power (as another poster stated) then why should mages be viewed any different? Especially when the topic is how to deal with mages that can't easily be constrained.  The other point is how could Thedas develop into a democratic world-state if there will always exist those born to powers that are not accessible to others? Not earned, not given by others, not taken from others, just theirs by birth.

Yet we did. despite having smart and dumb people and strong and weak people. And we also have plenty of people born into privilege and ease and yet we still maintain a democracy.

[Urzon]

DKJaigen wrote...

Yet we did. despite having smart and dumb people and strong and weak people. And we also have plenty of people born into privilege and ease and yet we still maintain a democracy.

We might maintain a democracy, but it is heavily influenced by many different companies and the wealthy. And if we try to pass a law that they don't like, they send in swarms of lobbyists to change people's mind on the matter, with expensive "gifts" and future re-election donations.

I don't want to look up how many licensed lobbyists there are in and around D.C. It might make me die alittle in the inside.

[GavrielKay]

Cigne wrote...
And I'd like to raise two points: If one views those born to mundane (or fuedal in this case) power are prone to misuse of that power (as another poster stated) then why should mages be viewed any different? Especially when the topic is how to deal with mages that can't easily be constrained.  The other point is how could Thedas develop into a democratic world-state if there will always exist those born to powers that are not accessible to others? Not earned, not given by others, not taken from others, just theirs by birth.

What is interesting is that no one seems to be thinking in terms of how the rest of the world might come up with other ways to protect themselves from mages.  I think the current system has allowed any other thinking on the subject to be completely stifled.  If all you have to do is lock them away and mass murder them if they get unruly, then you pretty much feel the problem is solved and nothing else is ever investigated.

But, if you couldn't just lock them away...  might not other means of protection and integration have been sought out?  Mind-control prevention charms and blood magic wards and anti-magic shields...  It seems a bit silly that in a world of magic and mystery, the responses so far have been along the lines of...  well, that would suck.

If mages couldn't have been "safely" locked away, wouldn't there have been more research into preventing possession?  More research into alternate sources of power than blood?  Without the Chantry and their "solution" and restrictions, I think the mages might have acted to protect themselves from possession - it certainly doesn't do them any more good than it does anyone else.

If something other than locking them up had been required to protect people, I think they might actually have found some other ways to handle it.  Segregating them into towers might have simply stifled other solutions that could have allowed far more freedom and safety for everyone.

[Cigne]

@GavielKay
I'm not trying to defend Thedas' current method of dealing with mages, but I see the the suggestion of not being able to lock up mages as just giving them another magical power. And yes, if there could be other ways created of dealing with mages... currently it's a cycle of repression of mages, revolt, dominance of mages, revolt--

The world as constructed is different than, say, the xmen's, where technological counters to mutants exist, and normals have the tools to maintain a quasi-equal footing. Thedas was designed not to have an easy solution (though I think that Gaider will probably toss a magical grenade into the mix in DA3).

Mind control (be it blood magic or a form of telepathy) is a game changer, since it creates a situation where one might not be able to even trust their own self. And then there is no protection from mages, except with other mages.

As for other solutions, one is a world where the dwarves are elevated, and are greatly valued, for their ability to craft protections from magic (instead of using the tranquil), and are judges/arbitrators when dealing with mages.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

There's two approaches to my question too... when I posed the hypothetical I was thinking, what if mages could never have been imprisoned, but the answers seem to revolve more around what if they could no longer be kept going forward.

Had it never been an option to lock them up, if the Circles as presented could never have existed because mages could never have been forcibly kept, then what?

Do you think the gap in ability would just never be handled gracefully, or might the choice (never having known any other way) between death and integration have resulted in some form of integrated society? It is quite a bit easier for most people to justify locking someone up than killing them outright after all, so might not integration be generally preferable to mass murder?

Tevinter has templars, so we know that even in Tevinter, there is an awareness that there has to be some kind of safeguard in place.  As Fenris states, "the line [may be] in a different place, but it is there."  Magic may define the extent of individuals' power, political and otherwise, but clearly the Imperium isn't overrun with abominations--and those abominations are not pouring out of the Imperium to wreak havoc on the rest of Thedas.  So it can, obviously, be argued that the White Chantry is wrong in its assertion that locking mages in Circles is the only possible way to keep the rest of the population safe from uncontrolled magic.

I also think it's noteworthy that templars are kept in a place where blood magic is used openly and, so we're led to believe, rampantly.  Blood magic is supposed to be undetectable by templar abilities, and spells fueled by blood are more powerful than those powered by mana and lyrium, we're told.  In that environment, it does rather stand to reason that the Imperium templars would have to be trained to deal with that problem.  Arguably they have more and better methods for countering blood magic in general and demons in particular.  Especially since the lore we have would very strongly indicate that the Veil is all but nonexistent in Tevinter, what with widespread and unfettered practicing of magic.  Unless Tevinter also has knowledge on how to maintain the Veil...

Clearly, whatever Tevinter is doing does indeed manage to keep society from falling apart.  The tyrannical system that keeps only the most magically powerful magisters in power and maintains slavery is an altogether separate issue from whether abominations and uncontrolled blood magic are ripping apart the foundations of civilization.  So I do think that the same system could be used outside of Tevinter to achieve the same ends.  Coupling it with the overall culture of mainstream Andrastianism--a society deeply opposed to both slavery and blood magic--I think you could have a workable system that allowed mages to live freely while also letting the rest of Thedas sleep peacefully at night. 

That isn't to say that no mage would ever wreak some small-scale havoc or that even once in a while a mage wouldn't cause some widespread death and destruction.  But that's a reality that happens even in real life--the price we pay for NOT living in a police state with strictly enforced curfews and such is that once in a great while, a madman runs amok, or terrorists blow up a building.  Yet most of us still manage to go about our lives in reasonable peace of mind.

[Silfren]

Poshible wrote...

Anders:"I'll show you why mages are feared..."

Anders period. The entire DA2 game proves this, all the blood mages running rampant. It is not just for the involvement with demons. It is the entire history of the Tevinter Imperium.and the belief in the the Maker and Andraste. Magic is meant to serve man not rule over him. Magic lead to the blights. Or so they say.

This argument falls COMPLETELY flat when you consider that Anders entire perspective exists explicitly because of the way the (white) Chantry has treated mages for a thousand years.  You CANNOT examine his actions without that context.  No, really, you can't, because you can't lock mages up, and then when they resort to extreme measures specifically because they are locked up, say that that is the reason you lock them up.  Logic doesn't work this way, and this is why just legal systems reject that kind of botched causal logic.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

But, if you couldn't just lock them away...  might not other means of protection and integration have been sought out?  Mind-control prevention charms and blood magic wards and anti-magic shields...  It seems a bit silly that in a world of magic and mystery, the responses so far have been along the lines of...  well, that would suck.

If mages couldn't have been "safely" locked away, wouldn't there have been more research into preventing possession?  More research into alternate sources of power than blood?  Without the Chantry and their "solution" and restrictions, I think the mages might have acted to protect themselves from possession - it certainly doesn't do them any more good than it does anyone else.

If something other than locking them up had been required to protect people, I think they might actually have found some other ways to handle it.  Segregating them into towers might have simply stifled other solutions that could have allowed far more freedom and safety for everyone.

I think this is exactly the case in Tevinter.  Even though we haven't yet seen anything inside Tevinter, we have more than enough evidence that as a functioning society it is acceptably stable, which means either that magic is nowhere near as dangerously volatile as we've been led to believe, or Tevinter does indeed have a great deal more research on the subject.  As I said in the previous post, it would seem that their templars do indeed have more and better methods for countering blood mages and abominations. 

Given what we've now seen of both Anders and Wynne, I would also argue that there is a great deal more to possession by a spirit (or demon) than we've currently seen.  Flemeth also, supposedly is possessed by a demon, although this is not clear.  And of course Rivaini seers willingly allow themselves to be possessed.  Clearly there is more to possession than just that it always, automatically and inevitably, turns a mage into a mindless, demon-controlled puppet. 

So clearly there is a mountain of knowledge out there concerning magic that the rest of Thedas could make use of to the benefit of mages and non-mages alike, if the damnable Chantry would permit it.