629 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I wonder what processing lyrium entails.  Is it merely dilution?  Or some sort of chemical change?
Even if we think of it as dilution, the question arises as to what the dwarves are diluting raw lyrium with. If "lyrium dust" is a form of processed lyrium, then it'd stand to reason that dwarves might be adding another component to reduce the potency of the raw, crystalline, version of lyrium that they mine.

When I first encountered raw vs processed lyrium in the games, I assumed that raw lyrium was simply less pure, and possibly more toxic because of whatever elements it naturally occurs with.  However, in DA2, the implication seems to be that raw lyrium is more potent.  I still think there could be more than just dilution involved.  It's possible that the lyrium is combined with something which makes it easier for the human metabolism to process.  After all, we need potassium in our diets, but trying to eat pure potassium would be a very bad idea.  Even in tiny quantities, it would react with your saliva and burn your tongue.

Modifié par maxernst, 17 mai 2012 - 09:18 .

[Silfren]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

That would be interesting.  Maybe they were playing with red lyrium?  Perhaps genlocks come from the Primeval Thaig dwarves experimenting with it and Hurlocks from Magisters?  Maybe the Qunari started collaring their mages after a similar occurrence?

Your last statement is kind of interesting. You know, it'd be an interesting twist if the qunari are the ones to reveal how the whole darkspawn thing works.

And I don't think we need different sources for corruption. Just once source, and a means to spread indiscriminately.

Anyway, you reminded me of something I was forgetting... work. I gotta go now.

A post about red lyrium and people mutating into twisted creatures of darkness reminds you you gotta work?  That raises all sorts of interesting questions about your job.  =P

[dragonflight288]

A post about red lyrium and people mutating into twisted creatures of darkness reminds you you gotta work? That raises all sorts of interesting questions about your job. =P

Certainly reminds me of my job. lol.

[Urzon]

Since the blue lyrium seems to effect a person's connection to the fade, i wonder if the red lyrium effects the connection to something else entirely.

[dragonflight288]

Since the blue lyrium seems to effect a person's connection to the fade, i wonder if the red lyrium effects the connection to something else entirely.

It has been theorized it's connected to the darkspawn and the taint.

[Silfren]

Urzon wrote...

Since the blue lyrium seems to effect a person's connection to the fade, i wonder if the red lyrium effects the connection to something else entirely.

Well, we can see that it has a direct effect on a person's psyche, though I don't think it's completely clear whether it drives a person to madness no matter what sort of person they are or just significantly exacerbates their most overriding flaw. i.e. did it enflame Meredith's existing paranoia or create paranoia where there hadn't been any--could it have affected her in a different way if she were a different sort of person?  I wonder that because we have various hints in the lore that suggest Meredith as almost a *gasp* reasonable person, that never made sense to me; they always seemed like random bits of a version of Meredith that was trashed in favor of a different one, that were never excised from the final game.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
Well, we can see that it has a direct effect on a person's psyche, though I don't think it's completely clear whether it drives a person to madness no matter what sort of person they are or just significantly exacerbates their most overriding flaw.

It seemed to increase Bartrand's greed, but at the same time do something worse.  He may have been a greedy bastard before the idol, but it seemed to do more than just make him more greedy.

From the wiki:

The servant tells Varric and Hawke that Bartrand started feeding the
servants and guards raw lyrium to make them hear the 'song' and became
increasingly mad as no results materialized, to the point when he
started torturing the servants and 'cutting bits off them while still
alive.'

Red lyrium and its connection to the "song" are very interesting.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Well, we can see that it has a direct effect on a person's psyche, though I don't think it's completely clear whether it drives a person to madness no matter what sort of person they are or just significantly exacerbates their most overriding flaw.

It seemed to increase Bartrand's greed, but at the same time do something worse.  He may have been a greedy bastard before the idol, but it seemed to do more than just make him more greedy.

From the wiki:

The servant tells Varric and Hawke that Bartrand started feeding the servants and guards raw lyrium to make them hear the 'song' and became increasingly mad as no results materialized, to the point when he started torturing the servants and 'cutting bits off them while still alive.'

Red lyrium and its connection to the "song" are very interesting.

It is.  I'm especially curious about the fact that some degree of madness remains even when the lyrium is removed from the person affected by it.  Seems like red lyrium infects a person in a way very similar to the darkspawn taint itself.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
It is.  I'm especially curious about the fact that some degree of madness remains even when the lyrium is removed from the person affected by it.  Seems like red lyrium infects a person in a way very similar to the darkspawn taint itself.

Yep.  I wonder if the writers will actually explain it at some point.  It would be very interesting if the taint and darkspawn and blights could be blamed on a mineral - for lack of a better term - rather than on mages and their hubris. 

[Silfren]

Urzon wrote...

Since the blue lyrium seems to effect a person's connection to the fade, i wonder if the red lyrium effects the connection to something else entirely.

The realm beyond the Fade, maybe?  I'm so tired of all these tantalizing hints.  I want answers, dang it!  

More seriously, since Witch Hunt would seem to indicate a looming plotline to do with that, I hope we hear more about it in DA3, although I don't see Bioware being able to juggle that many different storylines, major and minor, into one game, and DA3 will be about the war, so who knows? Although given when Morrigan's whole "change is coming to the world" took place, that almost certainly was a reference to the change created by the mage-templar conflict being set up.
One has to wonder just how far-spanning DA3 is slated to be.  I think--well, I hope--that lessons were learned from DA2 well enough that we can expect something more on the scale and quality of Origins.  

My, but we've wandered a bit far from the original topic.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...
It is.  I'm especially curious about the fact that some degree of madness remains even when the lyrium is removed from the person affected by it.  Seems like red lyrium infects a person in a way very similar to the darkspawn taint itself.

Yep.  I wonder if the writers will actually explain it at some point.  It would be very interesting if the taint and darkspawn and blights could be blamed on a mineral - for lack of a better term - rather than on mages and their hubris. 

I've been poking around lore concerning the Dissonant Verses from the Chantry of Light, and I find this one fascinating:

The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night.


It's said in several places in both Origins and DA2 that spirits are the Maker's first children.  What does that mean in light of this verse referring to the Old Gods as the first of the Maker's children? 

Even more interesting is that this is one of the Dissonant Verses.  Why?  Because of the implication that the Old Gods were created by the Maker and the Chantry would prefer its doctrine to be that the Old Gods were not related to the Maker in any way?  Because it has the potential to cast the Maker in an unsavory light?  Why?

At any rate it does lead to some interesting questions.  Not that we don't already have a lot of those.

Modifié par Silfren, 18 mai 2012 - 05:34 .

[Urzon]

Hmm, it almost sounds like it greatly enhances their key personality trait: Bartrand's greed, Meredith's paranoia, and Varric's possessiveness(?). I would have thought it somehow warped them into something like the different kinds of demons, if Bartrand's "Must hear the song" didn't sound exactly like The Mother's problem in DAA.

If the red lyrium is tainted with ...the Taint, i wonder if the Taint is using the lyrium's connection to the Fade to influence/poison the area around. It would explain why Kirkwall went to hell in a handbasket in Act 2 and 3. It was poisoning and influencing everything around it, and enchancing everyone's worse attributes. It didn't help that Kirkwall's Veil is razor thin, next to nonexistent.

Though i do wonder how it influenced Bartrand and Varric though. The only thing i can think of is, that they were on the surfuce long enough to loose their "Stone Sense".

[Silfren]

Urzon wrote...

Hmm, it almost sounds like it greatly enhances their key personality trait: Bartrand's greed, Meredith's paranoia, and Varric's possessiveness(?). I would have thought it somehow warped them into something like the different kinds of demons, if Bartrand's "Must hear the song" didn't sound exactly like The Mother's problem in DAA.

If the red lyrium is tainted with ...the Taint, i wonder if the Taint is using the lyrium's connection to the Fade to influence/poison the area around. It would explain why Kirkwall went to hell in a handbasket in Act 2 and 3. It was poisoning and influencing everything around it, and enchancing everyone's worse attributes. It didn't help that Kirkwall's Veil is razor thin, next to nonexistent.

Though i do wonder how it influenced Bartrand and Varric though. The only thing i can think of is, that they were on the surfuce long enough to loose their "Stone Sense".

It's likely that red lyrium brings out only the worst in a person--someone already greedy will turn into the sort of guy who would sacrfice his brother, etc.  We haven't seen what red lyrium might do to a person not prone toward baser instincts--someone like Wynne or Alistair or Leliana, for instance, so we can't know for certain, but I think it's more of a traditional cursed object for the DA narrative--whatever sort of fatal character flaw you have is going to be made ten times worse under the idol's influence, even if you were a pretty nice person beforehand.

Something occurs to me--did Meredith make any comments about hearing the song?  I don't recall it from when I played through that battle, and to the best of my knowledge there's no discussion about it the way there is with Bartrand.  If she didn't hear the song...was it simply an oversight by the Devs, or is there a reason Bartrand heard the song and became obsessed with it, and Meredith didn't?

[Urzon]

She said she heard the "Maker's voice" if i remember right. That could easily be her interpretation of the Song.

[Silfren]

Urzon wrote...

She said she heard the "Maker's voice" if i remember right. That could easily be her interpretation of the Song.

Andraste, anyone?  Andraste wasn't the Maker's prophet, she was lyrium-addled.

Er.  More seriously, I thought of that, but I'm not sure I find it at all compelling, if Meredith didn't make any references to a song, specifically.  Everyone else who hears lyrium sing mentions "song."  I'd find it odd if Meredith didn't say something to that effect, even if she did interpret it as being the Maker's voice.

Edit: Knee-deep in thoughts and feels about the connections between lyrium, the taint, the darkspawn, Old Gods, and the Fade, I looked back at this and remembered that Andraste was famous for her singing.  Part of her myth is that her voice enchanted the Maker.

EWR, your theory on Andraste as an Old God baby just became a little more intriguing.

Modifié par Silfren, 18 mai 2012 - 06:06 .

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
I've been poking around lore concerning the Dissonant Verses from the Chantry of Light, and I find this one fascinating:

The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night.


It's said in several places in both Origins and DA2 that spirits are the Maker's first children.  What does that mean in light of this verse referring to the Old Gods as the first of the Maker's children? 

So, could the old gods have been especially powerful spirits or demons who possessed dragons?  They did have attributes much like spirits and demons do.  Could Flemeth be one of the remaining ones?  We think she's a person able to shift into a dragon, perhaps it's the other way around.  Dragon of Mystery perhaps? 

    Dumat, the Dragon of Silence and the archdemon of the First Blight
    Zazikel, the Dragon of Chaos and the archdemon of the Second Blight
    Toth, the Dragon of Fire and the archdemon of the Third Blight
    Andoral, the Dragon of Slaves and the archdemon of the Fourth Blight
    Urthemiel, the Dragon of Beauty and the archdemon of the Fifth Blight
    Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery
    Lusacan, the Dragon of Night

I could imagine some of those being along the lines of the named demons we encounter.  If abominations are powerful, a dragon abomination might be impressive enough to be called a god and worshipped.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
Er.  More seriously, I thought of that, but I'm not sure I find it at all compelling, if Meredith didn't make any references to a song, specifically.  Everyone else who hears lyrium sing mentions "song."  I'd find it odd if Meredith didn't say something to that effect, even if she did interpret it as being the Maker's voice.

Perhaps being a Templar and having regular exposure to blue lyrium made a difference in how the red lyrium affected her?  Perhaps it kept the madness but left her cut off from the song?  Pure speculation of couse

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Er.  More seriously, I thought of that, but I'm not sure I find it at all compelling, if Meredith didn't make any references to a song, specifically.  Everyone else who hears lyrium sing mentions "song."  I'd find it odd if Meredith didn't say something to that effect, even if she did interpret it as being the Maker's voice.

Perhaps being a Templar and having regular exposure to blue lyrium made a difference in how the red lyrium affected her?  Perhaps it kept the madness but left her cut off from the song?  Pure speculation of couse

How dare you speculate!  There's no proof!


Sorry.  I had to.  It was there, and I just had to.

Modifié par Silfren, 18 mai 2012 - 06:06 .

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Er.  More seriously, I thought of that, but I'm not sure I find it at all compelling, if Meredith didn't make any references to a song, specifically.  Everyone else who hears lyrium sing mentions "song."  I'd find it odd if Meredith didn't say something to that effect, even if she did interpret it as being the Maker's voice.

Perhaps being a Templar and having regular exposure to blue lyrium made a difference in how the red lyrium affected her?  Perhaps it kept the madness but left her cut off from the song?  Pure speculation of couse

How dare you speculate!  There's no proof!


Sorry.  I had to.  It was there, and I just had to.

I'd have been disappointed if you hadn't

[GavrielKay]

GavrielKay wrote...
Could Flemeth be one of the remaining ones?  We think she's a person able to shift into a dragon, perhaps it's the other way around.  Dragon of Mystery perhaps? 

Exploring this further... 

Flemeth is said to body hop like an archdemon.  Perhaps as she's not tainted, she isn't killed by a Grey Warden the way an archdemon would be.

She's ancient.  Somewhat prescient.  Very powerful in magic...

Has this been suggested before?  I can't remember reading it, but I kinda like the idea.

Edit:  It has been suggested before.  Partly because Morrigan learns the ritual for an old god baby from Flemeth.  So much for originality.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 18 mai 2012 - 06:15 .

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Er.  More seriously, I thought of that, but I'm not sure I find it at all compelling, if Meredith didn't make any references to a song, specifically.  Everyone else who hears lyrium sing mentions "song."  I'd find it odd if Meredith didn't say something to that effect, even if she did interpret it as being the Maker's voice.

Perhaps being a Templar and having regular exposure to blue lyrium made a difference in how the red lyrium affected her?  Perhaps it kept the madness but left her cut off from the song?  Pure speculation of couse

How dare you speculate!  There's no proof!


Sorry.  I had to.  It was there, and I just had to.

I'd have been disappointed if you hadn't

I'm disappointed in myself.  I should have worked in a reference to Wonder Woman and educated guesses.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
Could Flemeth be one of the remaining ones?  We think she's a person able to shift into a dragon, perhaps it's the other way around.  Dragon of Mystery perhaps? 

Exploring this further... 

Flemeth is said to body hop like an archdemon.  Perhaps as she's not tainted, she isn't killed by a Grey Warden the way an archdemon would be.

She's ancient.  Somewhat prescient.  Very powerful in magic...

Has this been suggested before?  I can't remember reading it, but I kinda like the idea.

So do I.  I've thought for a while that when she said "Perhaps I AM a dragon," she meant it.  I'm not ready to let go of my pet theory that Flemeth either is, or is somehow connected to, Fen'Harel, but this...I like this too.  

The question, though, is, do archdemons body hop the way they do as a sort of innate trick they have, or because of the taint.  The latter was the explanation given in Origins--that the taint let the archdemon travel into the nearest available tainted body, but there's nothing to say that the Wardens aren't simply inaccurate on the details of that point, and I rather like this totally unprovable and made-up speculation.  

Modifié par Silfren, 18 mai 2012 - 06:20 .

[TEWR]

I don't put much stock into the whole "lyrium mutates people" theory, assuming the lyrium it talks about that was used was the blue lyrium.

Red lyrium... well... we see what that did to Meredith so that's something I do support.

As for why the addiction was never in the games, Bioware said they wanted the addiction to be present -- especially for Templar PCs -- but I think it became too much of a hassle to properly implement.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't put much stock into the whole "lyrium mutates people" theory, assuming the lyrium it talks about that was used was the blue lyrium.

Well, it does provide a plausible alternate explanation for the darkspawn, whether red or blue lyrium.  It remains to be seen how accurate it is, but there is a codex that asserts this mutation thing.  I don't see much purpose in discounting it out of hand without further examination, even without the variant of red lyrium..

The Evil Writer Redux wrote...
As for why the addiction was never in the games, Bioware said they wanted the addiction to be present -- especially for Templar PCs -- but I think it became too much of a hassle to properly implement.

Makes sense, even if it does make for an aggravating plot hole.

[Urzon]

Silfren wrote...

Edit: Knee-deep in thoughts and feels about the connections between lyrium, the taint, the darkspawn, Old Gods, and the Fade, I looked back at this and remembered that Andraste was famous for her singing.  Part of her myth is that her voice enchanted the Maker.

EWR, your theory on Andraste as an Old God baby just became a little more intriguing.

All these speculations and theories are hurting my head....

If it was true, what was posted eariler, that the "Old Gods" were the Maker's first childen; it could be reasoned that an uncorrupted Old God might be able to call the Maker back. Andraste could have kept her "singing" if she was an OGB. The Maker heard the untainted song of one of his first children, and he came running back.

I'd rather not think about the whole "Bride of the Maker" thing though...