629 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

Kingroxas wrote...

The Answer:
Who should die? Mages or Non mages? Choose.

The question was "What if mages could not be imprisoned."  Your answer is not really applicable, unless you assume that the mass death of one group or the other is completely and irrevocably inevitable. 

So how about elaborating with specifics instead of trying to twist the question around and throw it back at us in such an overly simplified one-liner?

[KingRoxas]

Silfren wrote...
Your answer is not really applicable, unless you assume that the mass death of one group or the other is completely and irrevocably inevitable.

I think it is inevitable that one side or another will kill the other. It doesn't mean it will happen in a day or in a big war. The only solution, in my opinion, is if you could turn non mages to mages or mages to non mages or that the mages have their own realm/world. 

Silfren wrote...
So how about elaborating with specifics instead of trying to twist the question around and throw it back at us in such an overly simplified one-liner?

First off all I wasn't trying to twist the question, I merely gave my answer.  I agree that my answer was simplified but I really can't elaborate as precisely as id like to why I feel as I do on the subject. It's like describing a color to a blind person. Not so easy to do. I hope you understand what i'm trying to say. 

Nevertheless i'm not trying to convince you that i'm right, you’re free to think whatever you want about the hypothetical question. 

DKJaigen wrote...
The question has no connection to the setting

I assume you mean my post has no connection the the question being asked by GavrielKay , if so it does in my head. As I described above, it is not so easy to describe exactly why I feel as I do on the subject.

DKJaigen wrote...
Its already proven that humanity cannot survive without magic.

I would appreciate if you could do what I can’t, to elaborate exactly why you think so.
 
Thank You

Modifié par Kingroxas, 20 mai 2012 - 09:16 .

[Silfren]

Kingroxas wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Your answer is not really applicable, unless you assume that the mass death of one group or the other is completely and irrevocably inevitable.

I think it is inevitable that one side or another will kill the other. It doesn't mean it will happen in a day or in a big war. The only solution, in my opinion, is if you could turn non mages to mages or mages to non mages or that the mages have their own realm/world. 

The point of the question was to explore other options beside the Circle.  If mages simply could not be imprisoned--if that option was completely off the table--what do you think would happen?  Or better yet, what kind of system do you think could be implemented as an alternative.  

Surely cou can see that to the question of "What if mages could not be imprisoned" "Who should die: choose one or the other" doesn't even begin to address what was asked.

Modifié par Silfren, 20 mai 2012 - 11:43 .

[KingRoxas]

Silfren wrote...

The point of the question was to explore other options beside the Circle.  If mages simply could not be imprisoned--if that option was completely off the table--what do you think would happen?  Or better yet, what kind of system do you think could be implemented as an alternative.  

Surely cou can see that to the question of "What if mages could not be imprisoned" "Who should die: choose one or the other" doesn't even begin to address what was asked.

I think that the point of the question is what would happen if mages could not be imprisoned not "to explore other options beside the Circle". Therefore i wrote "Who should die? Mages or Non mages? Choose". I assumed one could think that i don't belive they can co-exist forever by that statement. Not necessarily that i asked a random question.

Modifié par Kingroxas, 21 mai 2012 - 12:19 .

[dragonflight288]

Mages and non-mages both cannot die be killed either way. Every day, both are born, and you can't discern who is what until adolescence. The child would grow and develop preconceptions based on what they're taught by their families and friends, and their opinions of their self-worth or what magic is or isn't will be largely defined by the time it is revealed they are a mage. That may change growing up, but even if all the circles, every mage were killed, and the templar order completely disbanded and destroyed, there would still be mages being born, who need to learn to control their powers. There would still be people who fear mages, if only from the history of Tevinter ruling everything.

There is no true, one side or the other. I understand you have an opinion and it can't really be described, Kingroxas, but I don't see how your answer works short-term or long-term.

[Silfren]

Kingroxas wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The point of the question was to explore other options beside the Circle.  If mages simply could not be imprisoned--if that option was completely off the table--what do you think would happen?  Or better yet, what kind of system do you think could be implemented as an alternative.  

Surely cou can see that to the question of "What if mages could not be imprisoned" "Who should die: choose one or the other" doesn't even begin to address what was asked.

I think that the point of the question is what would happen if mages could not be imprisoned not "to explore other options beside the Circle". Therefore i wrote "Who should die? Mages or Non mages? Choose". I assumed one could think that i don't belive they can co-exist forever by that statement. Not necessarily that i asked a random question.

The general purpose of the thread was to explore Circle alternatives, and to spur discussion about what might happen if the world were forced to find some other way to deal with mages besides locking them up.''

I'm curious why you think that mages and non-mages simply cannot co-exist no matter what.

[KingRoxas]

Silfren wrote...
The general purpose of the thread was to explore Circle alternatives, and to spur discussion about what might happen if the world were forced to find some other way to deal with mages besides locking them up.''

I quote

GavrielKay wrote...
If mages could not be forcibly gathered up
and held by the Chantry and Templars what do you think would happen? 
Do you think they would be killed or that society would find a way to
co-exist with them?  Or something else entirely?

I think that the purpose of the question is that GavrielKay wanted our opinion on “What if mages could not be imprisoned?” and “what do you think would happen?”. Exploring circle alternatives would need you to assume that they can co-exist, I think that a compromise would be possible, but not that they can co-exist together forever. Keep in mind that what I wrote

Kingroxas wrote...
I think it is inevitable that one side or
another will kill the other. It doesn't mean it will happen in a day or
in a big war. The only solution, in my opinion, is if you could
turn non mages to mages or mages to non mages or that the mages have
their own realm/world. 

was not a compromise or a circle alternative. It would be a definitive solution for peace.

Silfren wrote...
I'm curious why you think that mages and non-mages simply cannot co-exist no matter what.

Because they are too different. You could practely call the mages another species.

dragonflight288 wrote...
(Quote Edited)
Mages/non-mages cannot be killed off

I’m pretty certain that if you killed all mages/non mages and all mages/non mages that were born, that there would be fewer mages/non mages. Eventually the genes would be so scares that mages/non mages would practely be killed off (I assume that it is genes that make the magic abilities) Maybe you don’t even need to kill anyone, maybe you could use magic to remove/add the magical abilities or that some powerful entity could remove/add it (Old Gods, Maker, Morrigan's god child).

Thank you

Modifié par Kingroxas, 21 mai 2012 - 11:45 .

[KingRoxas]

Double post

Modifié par Kingroxas, 21 mai 2012 - 11:30 .

[GavrielKay]

I wonder why, with all the evidence of other cultures who do have mages more or less incorporated into their society, do you think it can't be done?

In the absence of the Chantry preaching that mages must be isolated and feared, why wouldn't normals settle in to having mage neighbors? Certainly this thread mentions any number of other potential protective devices and spells.

Do you really think in a setting such as DA that nothing could possibly be done to provide enough protection for the normals and enough education/monitoring of the mages to allow peaceful coexistence?

Really the only voices we have in the game world that such is impossible are the Qun and the Chantry. The Qun is bonkers and the Chantry is biased and hasn't always held this opinion as cited in codex entries several times.

The attitude that mages must be segregated in Andrastian countries is newer than the formation of the Chantry and not shared by other cultures. So why is it so impossible to you?

[GavrielKay]

Kingroxas wrote...
I think that the purpose of the question is that GavrielKay wanted our opinion on “What if mages could not be imprisoned?” and “what do you think would happen?”. Exploring circle alternatives would need you to assume that they can co-exist, I think that a compromise would be possible, but not that they can co-exist together forever. Keep in mind that what I wrote

If you think the answer is that one side would eliminate the other, that's a valid point of view I suppose.  But the why and how of it would be an interesting discussion.  Simply saying a bunch of people would die isn't very persuasive.

[Silfren]

Kingroxas wrote...

Silfren wrote...
The general purpose of the thread was to explore Circle alternatives, and to spur discussion about what might happen if the world were forced to find some other way to deal with mages besides locking them up.''

I quote

GavrielKay wrote...
If mages could not be forcibly gathered up
and held by the Chantry and Templars what do you think would happen? 
Do you think they would be killed or that society would find a way to
co-exist with them?  Or something else entirely?

I think that the purpose of the question is that GavrielKay wanted our opinion on “What if mages could not be imprisoned?” and “what do you think would happen?”. Exploring circle alternatives would need you to assume that they can co-exist, I think that a compromise would be possible, but not that they can co-exist together forever. Keep in mind that what I wrote

Kingroxas wrote...
I think it is inevitable that one side or
another will kill the other. It doesn't mean it will happen in a day or
in a big war. The only solution, in my opinion, is if you could
turn non mages to mages or mages to non mages or that the mages have
their own realm/world. 

was not a compromise or a circle alternative. It would be a definitive solution for peace.

Silfren wrote...
I'm curious why you think that mages and non-mages simply cannot co-exist no matter what.

Because they are too different. You could practely call the mages another species.

dragonflight288 wrote...
(Quote Edited)
Mages/non-mages cannot be killed off

I’m pretty certain that if you killed all mages/non mages and all mages/non mages that were born, that there would be fewer mages/non mages. Eventually the genes would be so scares that mages/non mages would practely be killed off (I assume that it is genes that make the magic abilities) Maybe you don’t even need to kill anyone, maybe you could use magic to remove/add the magical abilities or that some powerful entity could remove/add it (Old Gods, Maker, Morrigan's god child).

Thank you

You cannot call mages another species.  They are born to both humans and elves and are not genetically distinct from them in any way other than the presence of magic.  The only way your logic would work here is if you classified all red-haired people as a separate species, or anyone born with, say, dwarfism. 

I don't think killing mages would be a workable solution.  You'd have to have genealogies of every family in the entire world ever known to create a mage family, and you'd have to instate a policy of full-blown genocide.  People wouldn't stand for it.

[Silfren]

I started a new Mage!Warden in Origins the other day to re-play certain dialogue options, and while this may or may not mean much, I did notice the particular way Duncan's voiceover refers to Amell.  "You were found sensitive to magic at a young age..."  That may not be vebatim, although I'm pretty certain it is, and it's close regardless.  But the relevant portion is "sensitive to magic."  Like I said, it may mean absolutely nothing at all, but to my mind, there's enough of a difference between "born with magic" and "sensitive to magic" to raise some compelling questions.

First and foremost, I think it does suggest that there should be some means of, well, desensitizing a person without resorting to something cruel and drastic like Tranquility.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
First and foremost, I think it does suggest that there should be some means of, well, desensitizing a person without resorting to something cruel and drastic like Tranquility.

Yeah, with the newer research into Tranquility discussed in Asunder, I wonder if there could be a way to just make a mage "normal" rather than lobotomized.  It would still possibly be a rotten thing to do to a person born with great gifts, but it's sure better than turning them into an emotionless slave.

[KingRoxas]

GavrielKay wrote...
I wonder why, with all the evidence of other cultures who do have mages more or less incorporated into their society, do you think it can't be done?

“Because they are too different”. I must point out that what i said was that I thought that mages and non mages could live together, but not that it would last forever. Hence, I said that I believed that it was ultimately inevitable that one side would destroy the other.

GavrielKay wrote...
Certainly this thread mentions any number of other potential protective devices and spells.

I haven’t read the thread. I just gave my answer to the question you asked.

GavrielKay wrote...
Do you really think in a setting such as
DA that nothing could possibly be done to provide enough protection for
the normals and enough education/monitoring of the mages to allow
peaceful coexistence?

How should i know? One could only hope for it.

GavrielKay wrote...
Really the only voices we have in the game
world that such is impossible are the Qun and the Chantry. The Qun is
bonkers and the Chantry is biased and hasn't always held this opinion as
cited in codex entries several times.

The Qun seems to work for the Qunari at the moment, and maybe something happened that changed the chantry’s opinion. Who can say?

GavrielKay wrote...
The attitude that mages must be segregated
in Andrastian countries is newer than the formation of the Chantry and
not shared by other cultures. So why is it so impossible to
you?

I doesn't matter if it is new or not,  people are afraid of mages and always will be. Therefor they feel that mages can’t have the same rights as any normal Man/Woman. The Mages then feel that they are being oppressed and conflict ensues. It just going to keep going like that until the problem is ultimately solved.

GavrielKay wrote...
If you think the answer is that one side
would eliminate the other, that's a valid point of view I suppose.  But
the why and how of it would be an interesting discussion.  Simply saying
a bunch of people would die isn't very persuasive.

Believe me, I wasn't trying to persuade any one that what I said was right. I simply gave my answer. And why it would happen is, as I said before, “Because they are too different”.  How it would happen is any ones guess, it might have been slow. But with Anders action it would seem that the fight is coming sooner than later.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...
First and foremost, I think it does suggest that there should be some means of, well, desensitizing a person without resorting to something cruel and drastic like Tranquility.

Yeah, with the newer research into Tranquility discussed in Asunder, I wonder if there could be a way to just make a mage "normal" rather than lobotomized.  It would still possibly be a rotten thing to do to a person born with great gifts, but it's sure better than turning them into an emotionless slave.

Were I the one in charge, it would be an option for people like Owain--or persons like Keili, for that matter--who willfully chose it, or rogue mages who proved they were too willing to resort to criminal behavior.  I think we have enough other options available that there is no need for a Knight-Commander to deem a mage incapable and force them to undergo a rite to lose their magic when they haven't even had a chance yet to try and prove it one way or the other.  That last one is just barbaric.

[KingRoxas]

Silfren wrote...
You cannot call mages another species.  They are born to both humans and elves and are not genetically distinct from them in any way other than the presence of magic.  The only way your logic would work here is if you classified all red-haired people as a separate species, or anyone born with, say, dwarfism. 

One is red haired, the other is shorter than a normal person. The other can cast magic spells that can summon demons/necromancy, cast fire from their hands, take control over the mind off another person and be possessed and be made into an abomination that will kill anything it sees.

Silfren wrote...

I don't think killing mages would be a workable solution.  You'd have to
have genealogies of every family in the entire world ever known to
create a mage family, and you'd have to instate a policy of full-blown
genocide.  People wouldn't stand for it.

People do strange things when they are afraid.

Silfren wrote...
I started a new Mage!Warden in Origins the
other day to re-play certain dialogue options, and while this may or may
not mean much, I did notice the particular way Duncan's voiceover
refers to Amell.  "You were found sensitive to magic at a young
age..."  That may not be vebatim, although I'm pretty certain it is, and
it's close regardless.  But the relevant portion is "sensitive to
magic."  Like I said, it may mean absolutely nothing at all, but to my
mind, there's enough of a difference between "born with magic" and "sensitive to magic" to raise some compelling questions.

Hmm, i agree. It does raise some questions.

Silfren wrote...

First and foremost, I think it does suggest that there should be some
means of, well, desensitizing a person without resorting to something
cruel and drastic like Tranquility.

Maybe, and i totally forgot about Tranquility.

GavrielKay wrote...
Yeah, with the newer research into
Tranquility discussed in Asunder, I wonder if there could be a way to
just make a mage "normal" rather than lobotomized.  It would still
possibly be a rotten thing to do to a person born with great gifts, but
it's sure better than turning them into an emotionless slave.

One could hope.

[GavrielKay]

Kingroxas wrote...
One is red haired, the other is shorter than a normal person. The other can cast magic spells that can summon demons/necromancy, cast fire from their hands, take control over the mind off another person and be possessed and be made into an abomination that will kill anything it sees.

Sure, but species is about interbreeding.  A mage can have children with a non-mage and non-mages can have children together who turn out to be mages.  We have no evidence that they can be separated, not even if you were to introduce some kind of cleansing where any family that had ever bred a mage were exterminated.

It is even possible, from what little lore we have, that magic is coming back into the world in a big way and more and more mages will be born.  Perhaps they will be a majority then everyone will have magic.  We won't know until the writers tell us.

But there is no indication that they are a separate species in any way that would make sense.  They have different abilities, but so do gymnasts and sharp shooters.  Some folks just are born able to do things that others can't.

[KingRoxas]

GavrielKay wrote...

Kingroxas wrote...
One is red haired, the other is shorter than a normal person. The other can cast magic spells that can summon demons/necromancy, cast fire from their hands, take control over the mind off another person and be possessed and be made into an abomination that will kill anything it sees.

Sure, but species is about interbreeding.  A mage can have children with a non-mage and non-mages can have children together who turn out to be mages.  We have no evidence that they can be separated, not even if you were to introduce some kind of cleansing where any family that had ever bred a mage were exterminated.

It is even possible, from what little lore we have, that magic is coming back into the world in a big way and more and more mages will be born.  Perhaps they will be a majority then everyone will have magic.  We won't know until the writers tell us.

But there is no indication that they are a separate species in any way that would make sense.  They have different abilities, but so do gymnasts and sharp shooters.  Some folks just are born able to do things that others can't.

Sure, that 's why i wrote "You could practely call the mages another species." Not "The Mages are another species"

[Silfren]

Kingroxas wrote...

Silfren wrote...
You cannot call mages another species.  They are born to both humans and elves and are not genetically distinct from them in any way other than the presence of magic.  The only way your logic would work here is if you classified all red-haired people as a separate species, or anyone born with, say, dwarfism. 

One is red haired, the other is shorter than a normal person. The other can cast magic spells that can summon demons/necromancy, cast fire from their hands, take control over the mind off another person and be possessed and be made into an abomination that will kill anything it sees.

The fact remains, mages are NOT a separate species and cannot be viewed as such.  They are born to humans and elves and kossiths, and presumably to any other races we have yet to see.  Magic is, if anything, a genetic mutation, but that isn't enough to classify mages as a separate species.

Kingroxas wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I don't think killing mages would be a workable solution.  You'd have to have genealogies of every family in the entire world ever known to create a mage family, and you'd have to instate a policy of full-blown genocide.  People wouldn't stand for it.

People do strange things when they are afraid.

People wouldn't stand for it.  You are talking about genocide on a huge scale, of elves, humans, and kossith alike.  Enough people would oppose this that you can hardly sit there and claim "people do strange things when they are afraid" as if you honestly think this would have universal support.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 mai 2012 - 07:11 .

[Silfren]

Kingroxas wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Kingroxas wrote...
One is red haired, the other is shorter than a normal person. The other can cast magic spells that can summon demons/necromancy, cast fire from their hands, take control over the mind off another person and be possessed and be made into an abomination that will kill anything it sees.

Sure, but species is about interbreeding.  A mage can have children with a non-mage and non-mages can have children together who turn out to be mages.  We have no evidence that they can be separated, not even if you were to introduce some kind of cleansing where any family that had ever bred a mage were exterminated.

It is even possible, from what little lore we have, that magic is coming back into the world in a big way and more and more mages will be born.  Perhaps they will be a majority then everyone will have magic.  We won't know until the writers tell us.

But there is no indication that they are a separate species in any way that would make sense.  They have different abilities, but so do gymnasts and sharp shooters.  Some folks just are born able to do things that others can't.

Sure, that 's why i wrote "You could practely call the mages another species." Not "The Mages are another species"

And I maintain that no, you CAN'T practically call mages another species.

[KingRoxas]

Silfren wrote...
The fact remains, mages are NOT a separate species and cannot be viewed as such.  They are born to humans and elves and kossiths, and presumably to any other races we have yet to see.  Magic is, if anything, a genetic mutation, but that isn't enough to classify mages as a separate species.

That's better word for it, genetic mutation.

Silfren wrote...
People wouldn't stand for it.  You are
talking about genocide on a huge scale, of elves, humans, and kossith
alike.  Enough people would oppose this that you can hardly sit there
and claim "people do strange things when they are afraid" as if you
honestly think this would have universal support.

I wasn't claiming that people would accept it, i merely responded to you and it seemed that you thought that a genocide on mages could not possible happen.

Silfren wrote...
And I maintain that no, you CAN'T practically call mages another species.

I lacked the proper words to express myself. Genetic mutation,like you said, is a much better word for it.

Modifié par Kingroxas, 21 mai 2012 - 08:04 .

[GavrielKay]

Kingroxas wrote...
I lacked the proper words to express myself. Genetic mutation,like you said, is a much better word for it.

I don't know really.  I mean, in the real world, that would be the closest thing we could use to describe it.  But I don't recall anything in the game world that suggests it is genetic.  Did I miss something?

It could as easily be a spiritual thing, with mages having a "soul" that is more connected to the Fade and/or the Maker.

By which I'm only trying to point out that we've no real in game proof that even if you killed off every family known to have produced mages ever (which would be all but impossible to know anyway), you could STILL end up having mages born to "normal" families.

EDIT:  You can't even kill the mage child at birth, because the ability doesn't show until later.  So an extermination campaign would be about murdering children.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 21 mai 2012 - 08:26 .

[KingRoxas]

GavrielKay wrote...

Kingroxas wrote...
I lacked the proper words to express myself. Genetic mutation,like you said, is a much better word for it.

I don't know really.  I mean, in the real world, that would be the closest thing we could use to describe it.  But I don't recall anything in the game world that suggests it is genetic.  Did I miss something?

It is just a way to describe it.

GavrielKay wrote...
By which I'm only trying to point out that we've no real in game proof that even if you killed off every family known to have produced mages ever (which would be all but impossible to know anyway), you could STILL end up having mages born to "normal" families.

Of course, it's why i hope that you could remove/destroy magic without killing people

Modifié par Kingroxas, 03 juin 2012 - 08:53 .

[GavrielKay]

Kingroxas wrote...
Of course, it's why i hope that you could remove/destroy magic without killing people

But not learn to live with it?  Not learn to control it without destroying it like the Dalish or Rivainni?  I really don't get why people think with all the magic limiting that exists already, necessity wouldn't cause more research to make things safer.

As it is in the game world now, people feel the Chantry is looking out for them and they don't have to worry about it.  However true that may be or not (given the number of apostates and maleficar we encounter), it is how many people feel.  If that had never been the case, or could no longer be the case, why not discuss ideas on how to make magic safer to be around rather than how to wipe it out?

[KingRoxas]

GavrielKay wrote...
 

Kingroxas wrote...
Of course, it's why i hope that you could remove/destroy magic without killing people

 
But not learn to live with it?  Not learn to control it without destroying it like the Dalish or Rivainni?

 
First of all, i have no idea how the Rivainni handle their mages, but i am rather sure that mages still use blood magic and could still be possed by demons whether they be in the Circle, with the Rivainni or with the Dalish.
 

GavrielKay wrote...
I really don't get why people think with all the magic limiting that exists already, necessity wouldn't cause more research to make things safer.

 
Sure it would. Im not against it to solve the problem.
 

GavrielKay wrote...
why not discuss ideas on how to make magic safer to be around rather than how to wipe it out?

 
I'm all for making magic safer. Reason why i would like magic to be destroyed is that i personally think that no man/woman should have that much power at their fingertips, atleast not when all of them don't.