629 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Kingroxas wrote...
I lacked the proper words to express myself. Genetic mutation,like you said, is a much better word for it.

I don't know really.  I mean, in the real world, that would be the closest thing we could use to describe it.  But I don't recall anything in the game world that suggests it is genetic.  Did I miss something?

It could as easily be a spiritual thing, with mages having a "soul" that is more connected to the Fade and/or the Maker.

By which I'm only trying to point out that we've no real in game proof that even if you killed off every family known to have produced mages ever (which would be all but impossible to know anyway), you could STILL end up having mages born to "normal" families.

EDIT:  You can't even kill the mage child at birth, because the ability doesn't show until later.  So an extermination campaign would be about murdering children.

I'm not convinced that magic is genetic, or at least not entirely genetic.   On the face, it seems like it is, when you have families known to carry magic in their lines.  But I suspect there's more to it than that, since it seems to show up in all species, even having been among the dwarves at one time, and seems to be making a comeback.  I simply referred to mutation since I do think that's probably the nearest real-world concept we've got to it.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
I'm not convinced that magic is genetic, or at least not entirely genetic.   On the face, it seems like it is, when you have families known to carry magic in their lines.  But I suspect there's more to it than that, since it seems to show up in all species, even having been among the dwarves at one time, and seems to be making a comeback.  I simply referred to mutation since I do think that's probably the nearest real-world concept we've got to it.

Yeah, making a comeback is mentioned several times.

I think the folks who are all "mages must die!" are going to be disappointed in the direction the game seems to be going.  Just a guess

[hitenchi]

I am going to be honest, the elves seem to be fine with mages and non-mages living together and nothing really bad seem to happen because of it.

[WhiteKnyght]

hitenchi wrote...

I am going to be honest, the elves seem to be fine with mages and non-mages living together and nothing really bad seem to happen because of it.

The biggest reason mages are feared is because "The Maker says magic is sinful and must serve man, not rule him."

It's true that magic is dangerous, but so are a lot of things. Like swords, wild animals, crazy people, and war heroes who believe Grey Wardens are Orlesian spies. Anything a mage can do can be matched with enough effort or enough insanity.

Mages are a crucial asset whenever a blight or battle with the Qunari happens. Now that the Templars have pushed the mages to the point where they rebel, they've left themselves vulnerable to the Qunari, or to Tevinter or any other party that wants to bring them down.

Mages are also needed to prepare the Joining ritual as it involves Lyrium(according to Alistair and Duncan) so if all mages are dead, tranquil, or forbidden to practice any arts, no more Grey Wardens and the Darkspawn create hell on Thedas come the next blight.

Mages also serve as healers for important people, being able to do things no medicine can do.

A lot of mages also love the chantry and only wish for equality. Looking at Dawn of the Seeker, there's no way Cassandra could have stopped the conspiracy without the aid of Galyan and the Circle Mages. Her head would be a decoration on the Knight-Commander's wall.

[dragonflight288]

I honestly don't know much about Dawn of the Seeker, so I can't comment on that.

[dragonflight288]

Let me play devil's advocate here.

After Irving is saved and the demon possessing Uldred is dead, why would there be any more need to mention the Litany? After all, it protects against blood magic domination, not blood magic. So why would it need to be mentioned again?

Honestly curious, from a literary and story-telling element.

[dragonflight288]

And...why should the Warden whose concerned about the Blight, be worried about that when all the blood mages in the circle were supposedly killed? (that one blood mage may or may not be spared)

[dragonflight288]

The Warden isn't necessarily a superior. Duncan recognized that many people had forgotten their promises of aid, and sought the treaties to remind them. It's not like the Warden's can come in and order everyone to drop everything and help fight the blight. The Wardens are politically neutral (supposedly) and so they aren't really superior to everyone.

When we have treaties, it's a written agreement of allies. The Dwarves would never have helped if there wasn't a treaty promising aid from four hundred years earlier. As far as most nobles are concerned, the problems of the surface here and now aren't nearly as important as the honor of their great-great-great-great twice removed grandfather. And any dwarf who leaves for the surface isn't considered a dwarf anymore, so most nobles are loathe to send any troops to the surface.

Dealing with the assembly, waste of time. We need a king to work with, and the King can only supply as many troops as the nobles are willing to send, otherwise may seem unfit to rule.

No matter which group we went to, the Dalish, the Circle, the dwarves, it's always we need to help them so they can in turn help us. He can't command any group, save any troops already placed under his command.

[dragonflight288]

Which must be used sparingly. If the warden conscripted everyone they could find, how long would it be before the nobles of a country would demand the Wardens declared an enemy of the state? You can only forcefully conscript so many people before you are accused of building an army, which you would be, but the motive may not be clear. Sophia Dryden built an army to overthrow the King as a form of petty revenge, and that's how the Warden's were driven out of Ferelden. They only recently came back.

[dragonflight288]

I think Duncan is actually more cautious than diplomatic, but still does what is necessary to get the job done. The Wardens aren't exactly trusted in Ferelden. Cailan did, but he was commonly thought of as an idiot. Loghain, and many of his supporters, honestly believed the Wardens were Orlesian spies.

Now during a blight, the Warden's are important. But at the time of Ostagar, no one believed Duncan that it was a true blight but rather a very large darkspawn raiding party or horde. Everyone, except the dwarves who felt the presence leave them be, never saw the archdemon, and everyone openly doubts Duncan about it.

It's not like it's common knowledge that the Grey Wardens may very well just be high functioning ghouls who can dream about the arch demon and say a blight is happening. It's just, "I had a dream, so let's go fight." It sounds ludicrous when put that way, so Duncan had to tell people that he knew there was a blight, but he had no real proof to show anyone either.

[dunstan1993]

GavrielKay wrote...

This is a hypothetical question I'd like to pose:  Imagine that it simply were not possible to imprison mages in Circles.  What if they could teleport or walk through walls or become undetectable such that they could easily sneak out from under a guard's nose?

If mages could not be forcibly gathered up and held by the Chantry and Templars what do you think would happen?  Do you think they would be killed or that society would find a way to co-exist with them?  Or something else entirely?

24 pages is a bit much to read through so I'll just start by answering the OP and see where it goes from there.

I think that if the Chantry and Templars couldn't keep control over the Mages, there would be terror and suffering in the shape of Demons, Abominations and Blood Mages ect. living among (And preying upon) innocent civillians on a daily basis.

There are already an overwhelming amount of such flooding Fereldan and the Free Marches (Probably elsewhere too, but that is yet tbc), so the Mages being uncatchable would just exacerbate things.

Keeping them locked in a Tower is for the greater good.

[dragonflight288]

Well...everybody is living a good life, happy, going on daily
business...then some one telling them the Blight is about to happen,
sure no one want to believe it. Like us...we all going on our business
everyday, playing games, waiting for DA3...then someone say 21 Dec is
the end of the world, you want to believe him?

Sure no...if the world want to end, atleast wait until DA3 release first

Interesting view. HAHAHAHA.

But like Duncan saying there's a blight or some guy saying the world is going to end December 21st, the general masses need some level of proof before considering it. I have no doubt that, if the archdemon was seen at Ostagar, the Grey Warden's ranks would swell and everyone would've been far more coorporative. But as it was, all anyone saw was a lot of darkspawn, no archdemon, and an Orlesian army coming in within a few days, and all Duncan could offer as proof of there being a blight, was that he simply knew it.

...yeah, if I were a soldier and I knew nothing of the joining or that Grey Wardens are connected to the archdemon in their dreams...I may be skeptical as well.

[dragonflight288]

@dunstan

But at the same time, there may very well be a lot more mages living without being harmed in any way, who are not driven to desperation and have no need to practice blood magic or consort with demons.

And to help catch you up, there was also a huge debate that if the templars and chantry couldn't control mages, they would try to slaughter them all without a thought because mages are cursed by the maker at birth. The Chant of Light and 1000 years of the Chantry's belief in the line "Magic is to serve man and never rule over him", or more accurately their own interpretation of it, has given rise to the belief, as Cullen said "that they have divine right over mages." Which cannot possibly be part of the Chant because templars didn't exist at the time of Andraste's Exalted March.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Well...everybody is living a good life, happy, going on daily
business...then some one telling them the Blight is about to happen,
sure no one want to believe it. Like us...we all going on our business
everyday, playing games, waiting for DA3...then someone say 21 Dec is
the end of the world, you want to believe him?

Sure no...if the world want to end, atleast wait until DA3 release first

Interesting view. HAHAHAHA.

But like Duncan saying there's a blight or some guy saying the world is going to end December 21st, the general masses need some level of proof before considering it. I have no doubt that, if the archdemon was seen at Ostagar, the Grey Warden's ranks would swell and everyone would've been far more coorporative. But as it was, all anyone saw was a lot of darkspawn, no archdemon, and an Orlesian army coming in within a few days, and all Duncan could offer as proof of there being a blight, was that he simply knew it.

...yeah, if I were a soldier and I knew nothing of the joining or that Grey Wardens are connected to the archdemon in their dreams...I may be skeptical as well.

However, both sides are at fault. The army didn't press the Wardens for just how they knew it was a Blight and the Wardens didn't press on it either.

You could say more blame lies with the Wardens because the burden of proof is on them, but both sides are at fault definitely.

Remember that Duncan went underground to find evidence of the Blight -- I believe he says this in the DN Origin -- and to recruit more Wardens. Given how evidence of the Blight means the Archdemon -- who are corrupted Old Gods, said to dwell in the bowels of the earth -- then the army should've believed that he did have evidence to support it.

And even if they didn't, Duncan should've either informed Loghain and Cailan about just how Wardens know a Blight is a Blight or made up lies on what "evidence" he had.

Although, given that society erroneously believed the Darkspawn to be gone forever -- and didn't even bother to consult the Dwarves on the matter -- you'd think that when the Darkspawn do show up and the Wardens -- whose job it is to protect society against the Darkspawn/Blights -- say it's a Blight, they'd be readily believed.

So again, both sides are at fault.

[dunstan1993]

dragonflight288 wrote...

@dunstan

But at the same time, there may very well be a lot more mages living without being harmed in any way, who are not driven to desperation and have no need to practice blood magic or consort with demons.

And to help catch you up, there was also a huge debate that if the templars and chantry couldn't control mages, they would try to slaughter them all without a thought because mages are cursed by the maker at birth. The Chant of Light and 1000 years of the Chantry's belief in the line "Magic is to serve man and never rule over him", or more accurately their own interpretation of it, has given rise to the belief, as Cullen said "that they have divine right over mages." Which cannot possibly be part of the Chant because templars didn't exist at the time of Andraste's Exalted March.

You're probably right, it's very likely that there are Mages living in peace already.
Although I'm fairly sure that I heard (In-game) that a Mage is vulnerable to Demons, whether they seek them or avoid them entirely. Doesn't a Mage's ability with magic determine how well they would handle a Demon encounter and isn't that partially the point of the Harrowing?

Preventing a problem before it even occurs is vital, which is why I support the Templars. To me at least, it just seems like a necessary evil.

To the second paragraph.
I don't think I know enough about the Chantry's involvement with the Templars to make an informed opinion, just being honest because I don't want to come out with some BS that makes me look stupid or ignorant. But I will say that @bold I couldn't support that, I support the Templars purpose, but not the Chantry's views if that makes any sense?

[dragonflight288]

Preventing a problem before it even occurs is vital, which is why I support the Templars. To me at least, it just seems like a necessary evil.

I see. Demons and Spirits and the Fade, is a very convoluted issue. Yes, mages power is tempting to demons.

But the Fade is established as not only a realm where demons and spirits live, but also the realm of dreams. All races, save dwarves, go there in there sleep. Mage or otherwise. All humans, elves, kossith, mage and non-mage alike go to the Fade every night. It is theorized that demons want to experience the human world by observing or shaping these dreams.

The only thing that separates mages from non-mages in the Fade is the capacity to enter the Fade, completely aware and conscious. They can easily fall prey to a demon's mind-games and end up making a deal and end up an abomination.

But once outside of the Fade, a demon is just as much a danger of possessing anyone, and quite literally, anything. Trees, corpses, mage, non-mage, and animals. A templar is possessed in Broken Circle in Origins, by a Desire Demon who preyed on his desire for a family, Sophia Dryden is possessed by a demon and is left possessed for centuries, and she wasn't a mage. The sylvans are possessed trees, Witherfang was a possessed great wolf.

The danger of abominations is very real, and templars are needed. But the Chantry tends to overlook the dangers to non-mages, overstate how dangerous mages actually are (my mind is, they are less dangerous than the Chantry claims, and more dangerous than hardcore mage defenders claim) and the templars and seekers, supposedly followers of the Divine, openly rebelled and discussed killing her and replacing her with someone who shared their views of mages.

Any thought to give mages more rights (rights to have families without special permission, rights to be outside a circle and even the right to fall in love) is usually met with a sword in the gut.

Templars are needed, but they have had way too much power over mages, and their recruitment methods led to the revolt of both templars and mages.

But I will say that @bold I couldn't support that, I support the Templars purpose, but not the Chantry's views if that makes any sense?

I understand. You'll find most of the people on the forum actually want the templars as an order around, because they have a dang useful function in society. To protect mages from the world, and to also protect the world from mages. Many of us agree with that charge. The extreme that it's been taken to, and templars like Meredith forgetting that they are supposed to protect mages as well, is where we take issues.

[dragonflight288]

I could say it's the templars. I could say it's the circle. I could say it's the chantry. I could be right for all those answers.

And I wouldn't say templars/chantry have contracts with demons, but rather tempt demons into falling a predictable pattern as demons yearn for the mortal world. What kind of demon, is another matter...or at least that's my personal interpretation.