629 réponses à ce sujet

[dunstan1993]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Preventing a problem before it even occurs is vital, which is why I support the Templars. To me at least, it just seems like a necessary evil.

I see. Demons and Spirits and the Fade, is a very convoluted issue. Yes, mages power is tempting to demons.

But the Fade is established as not only a realm where demons and spirits live, but also the realm of dreams. All races, save dwarves, go there in there sleep. Mage or otherwise. All humans, elves, kossith, mage and non-mage alike go to the Fade every night. It is theorized that demons want to experience the human world by observing or shaping these dreams.

The only thing that separates mages from non-mages in the Fade is the capacity to enter the Fade, completely aware and conscious. They can easily fall prey to a demon's mind-games and end up making a deal and end up an abomination.

But once outside of the Fade, a demon is just as much a danger of possessing anyone, and quite literally, anything. Trees, corpses, mage, non-mage, and animals. A templar is possessed in Broken Circle in Origins, by a Desire Demon who preyed on his desire for a family, Sophia Dryden is possessed by a demon and is left possessed for centuries, and she wasn't a mage. The sylvans are possessed trees, Witherfang was a possessed great wolf.

The danger of abominations is very real, and templars are needed. But the Chantry tends to overlook the dangers to non-mages, overstate how dangerous mages actually are (my mind is, they are less dangerous than the Chantry claims, and more dangerous than hardcore mage defenders claim) and the templars and seekers, supposedly followers of the Divine, openly rebelled and discussed killing her and replacing her with someone who shared their views of mages.

Any thought to give mages more rights (rights to have families without special permission, rights to be outside a circle and even the right to fall in love) is usually met with a sword in the gut.

Templars are needed, but they have had way too much power over mages, and their recruitment methods led to the revolt of both templars and mages.

But I will say that @bold I couldn't support that, I support the Templars purpose, but not the Chantry's views if that makes any sense?

I understand. You'll find most of the people on the forum actually want the templars as an order around, because they have a dang useful function in society. To protect mages from the world, and to also protect the world from mages. Many of us agree with that charge. The extreme that it's been taken to, and templars like Meredith forgetting that they are supposed to protect mages as well, is where we take issues.

So anyone is able to become possessed by a Demon in the Fade and/or their dreams, but Mages are the most vulnerable to them. And if they bring a one out of the Fade (Intentional or not) the Demon will then be just as much a threat to anyone or anything it encounters, but until that happens Demons are realitively harmless to any non-mage, is that correct?

If so then the Tower sounds like the best option, for the safety of both Mages and non-Mages.

I also agree that Templars have had far too much power, there are quite a few stories in and out of gameplay of cruelty to Mages and the Templar(s) responsible is never punished for doing so. And I've never quite understood why families aren't allowed to visit, just seems like an unnecerssary kick in the .

[GavrielKay]

dunstan1993 wrote...
So anyone is able to become possessed by a Demon in the Fade and/or their dreams, but Mages are the most vulnerable to them. And if they bring a one out of the Fade (Intentional or not) the Demon will then be just as much a threat to anyone or anything it encounters, but until that happens Demons are realitively harmless to any non-mage, is that correct?

If so then the Tower sounds like the best option, for the safety of both Mages and non-Mages.

I also agree that Templars have had far too much power, there are quite a few stories in and out of gameplay of cruelty to Mages and the Templar(s) responsible is never punished for doing so. And I've never quite understood why families aren't allowed to visit, just seems like an unnecerssary kick in the .

Demons come out of the Fade all by themselves in areas where the Veil is thin...  which seems to be quite a few places in Thedas.

Locking up the mages is a cop out.  It is allowing an entire group to be oppressed so that the rest of the world doesn't have to come up with better ways of dealing with the problem.  Ways like the Dalish, Rivaini and Chasind seem to be doing.  There is no evidence that free mages makes things significanlty worse.  There is evidence that locked up mages will turn to desperate measures to seek freedom.  So, perhaps things would actually be better if there were a bunch of free mages with families and a decent upbrining who will have more reason and better mindset to resist demons in the first place.

It's been said on this thread many times...  if you raise a person to believe they are nothing but a "beast with the face of a man" you have not given him the best ability or motivation to defend himself against possession.

Morrigan might not be the best example of a loving generous person, but she is completely able to defend herself against demons.  If you bring her to the Fade with you in the Broken Circle quest in Origins she is the only one who knows that it's a demon's trick before your Warden tells her. 

Mages brought up to be self confident and strong willed will have a much higher chance of resisting demons.  Mages raised by the Chantry under constant scrutiny and distrust are going to be at much higher risk.  The Chantry is making things worse and then using that as circular logic to claim how necessary their methods are.

[dunstan1993]

GavrielKay wrote...

dunstan1993 wrote...
So anyone is able to become possessed by a Demon in the Fade and/or their dreams, but Mages are the most vulnerable to them. And if they bring a one out of the Fade (Intentional or not) the Demon will then be just as much a threat to anyone or anything it encounters, but until that happens Demons are realitively harmless to any non-mage, is that correct?

If so then the Tower sounds like the best option, for the safety of both Mages and non-Mages.

I also agree that Templars have had far too much power, there are quite a few stories in and out of gameplay of cruelty to Mages and the Templar(s) responsible is never punished for doing so. And I've never quite understood why families aren't allowed to visit, just seems like an unnecerssary kick in the .

Demons come out of the Fade all by themselves in areas where the Veil is thin...  which seems to be quite a few places in Thedas.

Locking up the mages is a cop out.  It is allowing an entire group to be oppressed so that the rest of the world doesn't have to come up with better ways of dealing with the problem.  Ways like the Dalish, Rivaini and Chasind seem to be doing.  There is no evidence that free mages makes things significanlty worse.  There is evidence that locked up mages will turn to desperate measures to seek freedom.  So, perhaps things would actually be better if there were a bunch of free mages with families and a decent upbrining who will have more reason and better mindset to resist demons in the first place.

It's been said on this thread many times...  if you raise a person to believe they are nothing but a "beast with the face of a man" you have not given him the best ability or motivation to defend himself against possession.

Morrigan might not be the best example of a loving generous person, but she is completely able to defend herself against demons.  If you bring her to the Fade with you in the Broken Circle quest in Origins she is the only one who knows that it's a demon's trick before your Warden tells her. 

Mages brought up to be self confident and strong willed will have a much higher chance of resisting demons.  Mages raised by the Chantry under constant scrutiny and distrust are going to be at much higher risk.  The Chantry is making things worse and then using that as circular logic to claim how necessary their methods are.

Ah yes, I remember Warden's Keep dlc explaining about the Veil being thin, making it easier for Demons to access the real world. My knowledge about this isn't what it used to be.

You make some great points by the way and I can definitely see where you're coming from, but I'm just not sure if there are better ways of dealing with the problem. There are many ways of making life in the Circle more pleasant, but the Chantry stands in the way of this (They're a bunch of bigotted religious zealots).

I don't think there is much anyone can say to change my mind and decide freeing the Mages is best as it all stands at the moment, I believe that the Templars are necerssary as is the Tower, but I'll keep an open mind for DA3.Influencing my views however, that has been accomplished. Perhaps the Chantry is better off gone, they seem to cause nothing but trouble the majority of the time anyway. However, with so many followers of the Chantry I doubt that will ever happen in the DA universe.

I'd support the freedom of the Mages more if it happened gradually, peacefully and with less bloodshed, but it all just seems rushed and quite disgusting (On both sides of course, but more so Mages).

Even the First Enchanter Orsino turns to Blood Magic after all that talk of "I'd never turn to Blood Magic" "Nobody ever uses Blood Magic, stop accusing us". If they had some artistic integrity and honour I might also have found myself more sympathetic, but it seems (During DA2) that they are willing to give themselves to Demons (Putting innocents in danger just as much as their enemies, the Templars) whenever things aren't going their way.

I can't stand beside those who would be willing to put innocents in the line of fire, it's a reckless and careless way to go about it and hardly inspiring to the people they wish to live amonst.

Do I dare say that it's comparable to terrorism?... I'm not sure actually, I'd have to replay DA2 before making that sort of claim, it's been about a year so if I've missed anything important I probably can't remember.
My fingers hurt, I'm going for a cigarette. 

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Wayne, one of the oldest mage in the Circle, who is so proud to have affinity with the Fade cannot tell she is in the Fade...

while Morrigan, a young mage trained by her mother, an apostate, can tell it is not her mother in the Fade and she know she is in the Fade,

Indeed. It's really quite telling how Wynne -- the one who is possessed and merged with a Spirit of Faith and has been trained in a Circle her whole life, having a natural affinity with the Fade -- can't tell what's real and what isn't.

And yet Morrigan -- who was trained as an apostate. Though to be fair, Flemeth is no normal apostate -- is able to recognize what's real and what's an illusion.

Although I wonder if it's due more to Morrigan being better at recognizing such things or the demon's horrible attempt at recreating who Flemeth is.

Though the better example is that Sten was able to recognize the illusion he was in was just that: an illusion. He knew what was before him was a false reality -- a dream -- but he chose to stay in it because the demons did a great job of recreating the camaraderie he and his brothers in the Beresaad had.

GavrielKay wrote...

 If you bring her to the Fade with you in the Broken Circle quest in Origins she is the only one who knows that it's a demon's trick before your Warden tells her

Not true. Sten also realizes that what is before him is an elaborate ruse created by the demons of the Fade, but he willingly opts to stay there because of how lifelike it is.

The Warden can tell him though that it's just another cage he's placing himself in, whereupon he's doing his brothers in the Beresaad a disservice by not avenging them.

But he's fully aware it's not real.

 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 juin 2012 - 03:46 .

[GavrielKay]

dunstan1993 wrote...
I can't stand beside those who would be willing to put innocents in the line of fire, it's a reckless and careless way to go about it and hardly inspiring to the people they wish to live amonst.

But that's just it:  Those mages have been raised in such a way as to make innocents and families merely an abstract idea to them.  They aren't allowed to have families (except in rare cases) and aren't ever considered "innocent."  They have been deprived of the ability to relate to others and to feel any responsibility for them.  It's like beating a dog every day and then being surprised when he bites you. 

Why should a mage who's been brought up to believe he'll never be allowed among normal people, never be trusted, never be accepted into a community, never raise children, never travel and meet the masses you want him to sacrifice himself for...  why should that mage give a darn if his last ditch attempt to take out of few of his oppressors might also harm those "innocent" people who've left him to rot in a gilded cage?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Not true. Sten also realizes that what is before him is an elaborate ruse created by the demons of the Fade, but he willingly opts to stay there because of how lifelike it is.

Ok, my bad.  I hardly ever travelled with Sten.  Still, that he knows it isn't real and wants to stay anyway is kinda lame.

[TEWR]

GavrielKay wrote...

Ok, my bad. I hardly ever travelled with Sten. Still, that he knows it isn't real and wants to stay anyway is kinda lame.

Personally speaking, it's something that makes him more likeable and showcases how Qunari do have friends.

He stays because he kinda just.... gives up hope. His friends are dead, his honor is forfeit, and he's no longer allowed to return to his homeland because his sword is gone. In short, his life has gone to hell in a handbasket.

But the dream kinda lets him have it all back, even if he knows it's all a lie.

See here for his Fade moment.

Nizaris1 wrote...

but Oghren is not supposed to be in the Fade (Dwarf Warden also), that the inconsistency in the game, because of the game mechanic, they realized that Oghren (and Dwarf Warden) will be in the Fade due to the plot/choice, so they make it up that it is "unusual case"

Dwarves aren't completely barred from going into the Fade. They don't go there naturally when they dream, but they can be forced to go there -- meaning through unnatural means.

So it's not an inconsistency. The lore is very consistent.

Nizaris1 wrote...

By that, we can say everybody is actually in danger possessed by demons not only mages.

Yes and no.

It's true anyone can be possessed by a denizen of the Fade. But when a demon possesses a non-mage, that demon only has access to his limited powers outside of the Fade. A Demon that possesses a Mage has access to the powers of the Mage.

Demons actively seek to possess Mages because Mages are aware in the Fade when other civilians aren't.

Source

It makes me wonder though: Is it possible through magical research to devise a way to make Mages unaware they're in the Fade? Or at least make Demons think that? Maybe even mask how the Mage is a Mage to the Demons?

Supposedly, there was a time when the Veil didn't exist. I think The Silent Grove talked about that, but I also think the Battleaxe acquired off of the High Dragon's corpse near the Gauntlet hinted at that as well.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 juin 2012 - 09:23 .

[dragonflight288]

So anyone is able to become possessed by a Demon in the Fade and/or their dreams, but Mages are the most vulnerable to them. And if they bring a one out of the Fade (Intentional or not) the Demon will then be just as much a threat to anyone or anything it encounters, but until that happens Demons are realitively harmless to any non-mage, is that correct?

Umm....maybe? I honestly don't know. In the games, there is only one case. One, where demons are capable of possessing someone while they sleep, and that's Fenriel. And he's a somniari, a dreamer. He and that kind of mage is so rare, with their ability to enter the Fade without any assistance, and most don't survive.

Until there's more lore on the subject, I assume that for demons to enter the world through a mage, instead of say where the veil is thin, the mage needs to be in the Fade themselves, conscious and aware. Dreamers, however, with their ability to enter the Fade the way they do, is in far more danger than the average mage.

Aside from him and his exceptional circumstances, there is no evidence that even regular mages can be possessed that way.

Even the First Enchanter Orsino turns to Blood Magic after all that talk of "I'd never turn to Blood Magic" "Nobody ever uses Blood Magic, stop accusing us". If they had some artistic integrity and honour I might also have found myself more sympathetic, but it seems (During DA2) that they are willing to give themselves to Demons (Putting innocents in danger just as much as their enemies, the Templars) whenever things aren't going their way.

I agree, that was stupid. However, Gaider and the others said that they added him as a boss fight...just because. They didn't really think that one through. In the original beta, there was a choice not to fight him. But so many people testing the game chose to do so, it kind of became mandatory and part of the game.

So yes, it's stupid.

But in the mages defense, we the gamers (and Hawke) don't actually see almost all the mages turning to blood magic until it was that or death.

[dragonflight288]

Sorry about the double post, but I was reading this a little more thorough and I thought of something else as well.

Dunstan

There are many ways of making life in the Circle more pleasant, but the Chantry stands in the way of this (They're a bunch of bigotted religious zealots).

That is true. In Asunder, the Divine tried to make things better for the mages in the Circles, but it was the Templars and Seekers who didn't want that. They even contemplated killing the Divine (someone they're supposedly loyal to and supposed to protect) and replacing her with one who is more interested in their ideas. And it was the Seekers (and templars) who struck the first blow in the war, revolting against the Chantry, so they could exterminate ALL mages, declaring the Nevarran accord now to be void, rather than allow mages to have more rights, or better living conditions within the circles.

Granted, at the same time the Mages were about to vote on whether or not to leave the Chantry entirely themselves, but they never got to vote on it before the bloodbath started.

[dunstan1993]

GavrielKay wrote...

dunstan1993 wrote...
I can't stand beside those who would be willing to put innocents in the line of fire, it's a reckless and careless way to go about it and hardly inspiring to the people they wish to live amonst.

But that's just it:  Those mages have been raised in such a way as to make innocents and families merely an abstract idea to them.  They aren't allowed to have families (except in rare cases) and aren't ever considered "innocent."  They have been deprived of the ability to relate to others and to feel any responsibility for them.  It's like beating a dog every day and then being surprised when he bites you. 

Why should a mage who's been brought up to believe he'll never be allowed among normal people, never be trusted, never be accepted into a community, never raise children, never travel and meet the masses you want him to sacrifice himself for...  why should that mage give a darn if his last ditch attempt to take out of few of his oppressors might also harm those "innocent" people who've left him to rot in a gilded cage?

They live with many other mages like themselves and I imagine they are their families (For most who are taken to the Tower at a young age especially), even some Templars develop good friendships with mages. But that's no substitue for actually being able to meet and spend time with your own biological family and I never meant it that way either, what I mean is they must understand the concept of having family at the very least. (However, as I've said before, why they're not alowed to see their real families is beyond me. Probably a load of Chantry dribble)

My point being, they should have some kind of empathy for people who have been brainwashed by the Chantry into viewing mages as extremely dangerous. If mages taking part in the revolution know that the Chantry is wrong and that Mages could live among non-mages peacefully, with little risk of an outbreak of possession ect. Why would they then choose to prove them (The Chantry) right in the eyes of civilians by turning to Abominations, Demons and Blood magic for aid. Makes you wonder what would've happened if in DA2 all the Templars and Hawke ect. were defeated and civilians were left in a Kirkwall filled with Demonic creatures, they couldn't simply be told to go away after the battle.

All they will do by partaking in such things is drive people into the arms of the Templars more, then the only way they will be able to live among non-mages free of the Tower is with an iron fist. They would basically become tyrants, that which they believe the Templars are already (The real enemy being the Chantry, the Templars are there for a good reason, vital even. I think if the Chantry hypothetically didn't exist, the Templars and the Circle still should, but it would be a lot more leanient).

[dunstan1993]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Sorry about the double post, but I was reading this a little more thorough and I thought of something else as well.

Dunstan

There are many ways of making life in the Circle more pleasant, but the Chantry stands in the way of this (They're a bunch of bigotted religious zealots).

That is true. In Asunder, the Divine tried to make things better for the mages in the Circles, but it was the Templars and Seekers who didn't want that. They even contemplated killing the Divine (someone they're supposedly loyal to and supposed to protect) and replacing her with one who is more interested in their ideas. And it was the Seekers (and templars) who struck the first blow in the war, revolting against the Chantry, so they could exterminate ALL mages, declaring the Nevarran accord now to be void, rather than allow mages to have more rights, or better living conditions within the circles.

Granted, at the same time the Mages were about to vote on whether or not to leave the Chantry entirely themselves, but they never got to vote on it before the bloodbath started.

It seems that the Templars aren't so strictly ruled over by the Chantry as I first thought and I actually forgot all about the Seekers involvement (Been over a year since I last played DA2). So if my last post contains any misinfomation or similar (Going to re-read it again, to check), I apologise.

[dragonflight288]

It seems that the Templars aren't so strictly ruled over by the Chantry as I first thought and I actually forgot all about the Seekers involvement (Been over a year since I last played DA2). So if my last post contains any misinfomation or similar (Going to re-read it again, to check), I apologise.

The chantry's hold over the templars has always been established as one of religious zeal and an addiction to lyrium. The Chantry controls the lyrium trade with Orzammar, so in order to get lyrium, the templars have to stay with the chantry. But the Chantry also recruited templars for centuries, based largely on their religious fervor over their moral integrity, in the interest of keeping them from asking question when given orders that are difficult to follow.

So we have an army of zealots (largely) who believe they have divine authority over the mages (Cullen), that mages aren't people but weapons (Cullen), and so they'll see everything they do as justified in the eyes of the Maker. And these zealots are also addicted to lyrium, and if they don't get it, they can go insane from lyrium withdrawal or even die from it. And they revolted and rebelled against the only real source of lyrium on the surface.

....Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees a problem here.

[dunstan1993]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It seems that the Templars aren't so strictly ruled over by the Chantry as I first thought and I actually forgot all about the Seekers involvement (Been over a year since I last played DA2). So if my last post contains any misinfomation or similar (Going to re-read it again, to check), I apologise.

The chantry's hold over the templars has always been established as one of religious zeal and an addiction to lyrium. The Chantry controls the lyrium trade with Orzammar, so in order to get lyrium, the templars have to stay with the chantry. But the Chantry also recruited templars for centuries, based largely on their religious fervor over their moral integrity, in the interest of keeping them from asking question when given orders that are difficult to follow.

So we have an army of zealots (largely) who believe they have divine authority over the mages (Cullen), that mages aren't people but weapons (Cullen), and so they'll see everything they do as justified in the eyes of the Maker. And these zealots are also addicted to lyrium, and if they don't get it, they can go insane from lyrium withdrawal or even die from it. And they revolted and rebelled against the only real source of lyrium on the surface.

....Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees a problem here.

You're not alone, I also see the problem... Dragon Age needs more cowbell 

[dragonflight288]

HAHAHAHA

[GavrielKay]

dunstan1993 wrote...
Why would they then choose to prove them (The Chantry) right in the eyes of civilians by turning to Abominations, Demons and Blood magic for aid.

I'm sure someone will come up with examples to prove me wrong, but just about every instance of turning to demons or into an Abomination that I can think of is done as a last ditch effort to kill a few Templars while the mage dies himself.  As far as we know, mages can't come back from the total "meatbag" abomination style possession, so essentially they are dead at that point.

Once utter terror at staring death in the face takes over, I'm pretty sure concern for innocent bystanders is out the window.

...  and I thought of my own exception, but I differ from a number of players in really disliking Merrill and her stupid mirror obsession that has her dealing wth blood magic and a demon.  But at least she doesn't get possessed.

[khordlambert]

GavrielKay wrote...

...  and I thought of my own exception, but I differ from a number of players in really disliking Merrill and her stupid mirror obsession that has her dealing wth blood magic and a demon.  But at least she doesn't get possessed.

Not to mention she took steps to keep the damage her potential posession could cause at a minimum. I.E. Bringing Hawk along to put her down if it came down to that. Hell of a lot more forsight than her old Keeper ever had, I'll give her that much.

[GavrielKay]

khordlambert wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

...  and I thought of my own exception, but I differ from a number of players in really disliking Merrill and her stupid mirror obsession that has her dealing wth blood magic and a demon.  But at least she doesn't get possessed.

Not to mention she took steps to keep the damage her potential posession could cause at a minimum. I.E. Bringing Hawk along to put her down if it came down to that. Hell of a lot more forsight than her old Keeper ever had, I'll give her that much.

Not to turn this into a Merrill thread...  but I'm not sure I agree with that.  If I recall properly...  she wants to go to the mountain again because her attempts to contact the demon from the Alienage have been failing and she wants to figure out what's up.  If that's the case, then all that time in the alienage, she was putting people at risk.

I like that Merrill's story does show a bit about how the Dalish deal with mages doing things they don't like though.  They try social pressure to get them to stop and finally exile them to protect the clan.  That's an interesting contrast to the Chantry solution of locking up every mage they can get their hands on.

[TEWR]

GavrielKay wrote...

Not to turn this into a Merrill thread... but I'm not sure I agree with that. If I recall properly... she wants to go to the mountain again because her attempts to contact the demon from the Alienage have been failing and she wants to figure out what's up. If that's the case, then all that time in the alienage, she was putting people at risk.

Not quite.

During the seven or so years she was in Kirkwall, she had worked on the mirror using what scraps of lore there was on the Eluvian and extrapolating information from them. During that time, she never used the Demon to help with her goal. The last time she had conversed with him at all was when she learned blood magic to amplify the healing magic Marethari had taught her -- which when unamplified was able to fight the taint, partially.

Said magic managed to cleanse the shard of the Taint, proven to be so due to Anders not saying he senses the Taint in the mirror. And Anders wanted Hawke to not help Merrill, so if it was there he would've told Hawke about it. Since he didn't, it was cleansed.

Plus she goes 7 years without being tainted or having her mirror taint anyone else.

She wants to talk to the Demon in person -- but keeping him in his statue, because she's not going there to free him -- out because of a few reasons:

1) She's exhausted every other lead she knew about
2) She tried contacting him at this point to see if he knew how to make the mirror "turn on" as it were, but he didn't respond. And that was unusual, so she wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.

Going there and meeting with him would be the 3rd time she's seen him. The 1st was with Marethari, the 2nd to learn blood magic, and the 3rd was her Act III quest.

However, the Demon was sundered from the Fade and only has a miniscule fraction of his power. He couldn't free himself and could only be freed if a mage cast a powerful spell -- which Merrill had no intention of doing, as she tells an aggressive Hawke.

Possession would never have happened, had Marethari let sleeping dogs lie.

GavrielKay wrote...

They try social pressure to get them to stop and finally exile them to protect the clan

Although to be fair, Merrill left the clan of her own volition. The clan accepted it. Marethari.... didn't.

And then afterwards, Marethari starts spreading baseless lies about Merrill that completely destroy her standing with the clan. Not to mention the logic fail that Marethari was operating off of when she spread said lies.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 10:00 .

[GavrielKay]

TEWR: We're never going to see eye to eye on Merrill.

But anyway, at least the Dalish don't resort to locking up mages they don't like. The idea that the only possible way to be safe from magic is to lock up mages so they get desperate is completely counter-intuitive to me.

[EricHVela]

GavrielKay wrote...

TEWR: We're never going to see eye to eye on Merrill.

But anyway, at least the Dalish don't resort to locking up mages they don't like. The idea that the only possible way to be safe from magic is to lock up mages so they get desperate is completely counter-intuitive to me.

Don't feel bad. The Dalish never saw eye-to-eye with Merrill, either.


While the Dalish in Dragon Age: Kirkwall do not imprison all mages and even revere their own mages somewhat, they still condemn blood magic (and seem to frown on intrusive magics that damage the natural world). The mages are still not completely free. They have a choice: restrict their magical practices or leave. They cannot have both.


Going backwards to the original topic: I have to throw my vote that mages would become hunted by elite soldiers if mages could not be incarcerated. The soldiers would be like the Templars but even more powerful in thwarting magical attacks and besting magical defenses. Instead of controlling mages, those soldiers would specialize in finding and killing mages -- no questions asked. There would be no provisions in the Chantry to allow such uncontrollable power (even if the Chant initially had such -- it would be removed or rewritten).

Mages would hide their abilities and deny them, never learning to harness their powers. The only famous mages would be those that went out of control and grabbed the attention of the mage-hunters.

It's just too much power if nobody can contain it when it becomes a problem. Currently, even blood mages can be collared.

[Treacherous J Slither]

ReggarBlane wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

TEWR: We're never going to see eye to eye on Merrill.

But anyway, at least the Dalish don't resort to locking up mages they don't like. The idea that the only possible way to be safe from magic is to lock up mages so they get desperate is completely counter-intuitive to me.

Don't feel bad. The Dalish never saw eye-to-eye with Merrill, either.


While the Dalish in Dragon Age: Kirkwall do not imprison all mages and even revere their own mages somewhat, they still condemn blood magic (and seem to frown on intrusive magics that damage the natural world). The mages are still not completely free. They have a choice: restrict their magical practices or leave. They cannot have both.


Going backwards to the original topic: I have to throw my vote that mages would become hunted by elite soldiers if mages could not be incarcerated. The soldiers would be like the Templars but even more powerful in thwarting magical attacks and besting magical defenses. Instead of controlling mages, those soldiers would specialize in finding and killing mages -- no questions asked. There would be no provisions in the Chantry to allow such uncontrollable power (even if the Chant initially had such -- it would be removed or rewritten).

Mages would hide their abilities and deny them, never learning to harness their powers. The only famous mages would be those that went out of control and grabbed the attention of the mage-hunters.

It's just too much power if nobody can contain it when it becomes a problem. Currently, even blood mages can be collared.

Not all parents give up their children. Not all mages give themselves away. Your scenario would force the mages underground and give them a good reason to fight. They would operate from the shadows and become unstoppable. They would practice in secret and the only people that see a mage cast are people that are about to die. Remember the Mages Collective? There would be tons of them all over the place and many of them would be hellbent on taking out the Chantry/Templars. The mundanes cannot win. The only solution is to work with the mages to the betterment of all. Opposing them is self destructive. Being unable to lock them up makes this conclusion even more obvious.

[GavrielKay]

JSlither wrote...
The mundanes cannot win. The only solution is to work with the mages to the betterment of all. Opposing them is self destructive. Being unable to lock them up makes this conclusion even more obvious.

The mundanes could only win if they really organized and trained for it.  A bunch of farmers with pitchforks is not going to do it.

On the other hand, why would they?  I still believe that gameplay supports my claim that mages aren't really as much "exploding kittens" as the Chantry wants folks to believe.  We've got cultures that don't restrict their mages nearly as much.  We've got Tevinter where mages rule.  We've got the fact that even the Chantry took a hundred years to come around to the idea of segregating the mages.  None of those situations has lead to civilization wrecking problems.

I know we see a lot of mages turn into abominations in DA2, but they appear to do so "willingly" as a last ditch go-out-with-a-bang strategy.  We do not see mages calmly walking to the local robe merchant and suddenly going "RAWR, kill them all!!!"  It apparently is a rare occurrence that mages will just poof! get possessed.  If it is a decision to give up one's person to a demon, then everyone would be safer if mages had less reason to do so.

Which means that treating them better, integrating them into society and generally raising them to be well adjusted and resposible adults ought to work.  People who have felt the joys of family, friends and community have a lot more reason to try to preserve them.

People who've been raised as caged monsters - never trusted or loved - have less motive to care about the masses.

[Plaintiff]

ReggarBlane wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

TEWR: We're never going to see eye to eye on Merrill.

But anyway, at least the Dalish don't resort to locking up mages they don't like. The idea that the only possible way to be safe from magic is to lock up mages so they get desperate is completely counter-intuitive to me.

Don't feel bad. The Dalish never saw eye-to-eye with Merrill, either.


While the Dalish in Dragon Age: Kirkwall do not imprison all mages and even revere their own mages somewhat, they still condemn blood magic (and seem to frown on intrusive magics that damage the natural world). The mages are still not completely free. They have a choice: restrict their magical practices or leave. They cannot have both.


Going backwards to the original topic: I have to throw my vote that mages would become hunted by elite soldiers if mages could not be incarcerated. The soldiers would be like the Templars but even more powerful in thwarting magical attacks and besting magical defenses. Instead of controlling mages, those soldiers would specialize in finding and killing mages -- no questions asked. There would be no provisions in the Chantry to allow such uncontrollable power (even if the Chant initially had such -- it would be removed or rewritten).

Mages would hide their abilities and deny them, never learning to harness their powers. The only famous mages would be those that went out of control and grabbed the attention of the mage-hunters.

It's just too much power if nobody can contain it when it becomes a problem. Currently, even blood mages can be collared.

A lot of templars already kill first and ask questions later as it is, but it doesn't matter, because if you can't contain something, you sure as hell can't kill it. The "elite hunters" might get a few lucky strikes, but they would ultimately be overwhelmed.

Thedas operates based on certain parameters, and problem with this question is that people are working on the assumption that the parameters can somehow be the same in this hypothetical universe (Thedas  as they are in the original (Thedas A). But they can't be, obviously, and they aren't.

Mage containment in Thedas A is almost entirely contingent on the templar ability to suppress magic. That is the only way that they are able to face the mages on a somewhat even playing field.  If containment is not feasible in Thedas B, then a very drastic change must have occurred in order to bring about this outcome. Either the templars have somehow lost their powers, or mages have developed a work-around, or new powers that cannot be suppressed by any known methods. Either way, the end result is that there is now no way at all to effectively combat magic.

It wouldn't matter how "elite" your hunters were; without the ability to suppress magic, their targets could stay invisible indefinitely, or fry them before they even got within arrow-range, or use blood magic to make them turn on each other.

Thedas would just have to learn to deal with the fact that mages were unstoppable, and society would be forced to adjust accordingly.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 25 juin 2012 - 04:29 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

They try social pressure to get them to stop and finally exile them to protect the clan

Although to be fair, Merrill left the clan of her own volition. The clan accepted it. Marethari.... didn't.

And then afterwards, Marethari starts spreading baseless lies about Merrill that completely destroy her standing with the clan. Not to mention the logic fail that Marethari was operating off of when she spread said lies.

I don't want to turn this into a Merrill thread either, but I don't think it can be said that Merrill left completely of her own volition.  I seem to recall that she was forced to leave the clan because Marethari and her clan would not permit her to live among them so long as she practiced blood magic, and she refused to abandon it.  She accepted exile because she was convinced that she was doing what was best for her clan.  I think she would have preferred to stay with them had Marethari permitted her the option.