629 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

Cigne wrote...

@GavielKay
I'm not trying to defend Thedas' current method of dealing with mages, but I see the the suggestion of not being able to lock up mages as just giving them another magical power. And yes, if there could be other ways created of dealing with mages... currently it's a cycle of repression of mages, revolt, dominance of mages, revolt--

The world as constructed is different than, say, the xmen's, where technological counters to mutants exist, and normals have the tools to maintain a quasi-equal footing. Thedas was designed not to have an easy solution (though I think that Gaider will probably toss a magical grenade into the mix in DA3).

Mind control (be it blood magic or a form of telepathy) is a game changer, since it creates a situation where one might not be able to even trust their own self. And then there is no protection from mages, except with other mages.

As for other solutions, one is a world where the dwarves are elevated, and are greatly valued, for their ability to craft protections from magic (instead of using the tranquil), and are judges/arbitrators when dealing with mages.

This is not altogether true.  We know that the mage Adralla created a counter for every known form of blood magic--and it could be argued that her counters are usable by mages as well as non-mages, given that a non-mage Warden can use the Litany against Uldred, for starters, and as has already been mentioned, runes exist that can be carved into objects to negate any and all magic.  For that matter, we have a bit of lore that hints that Seekers are immune to mind-control by blood mages.  It's a weak hint, but it is there nonetheless.  So clearly Thedas DOES have the techonology to counter magic, whether fueled by blood or otherwise.

[Cigne]

Silfren wrote...


Tevinter has templars, so we know that even in Tevinter, there is an awareness that there has to be some kind of safeguard in place.  As Fenris states, "the line [may be] in a different place, but it is there."  Magic may define the extent of individuals' power, political and otherwise, but clearly the Imperium isn't overrun with abominations--and those abominations are not pouring out of the Imperium to wreak havoc on the rest of Thedas.  So it can, obviously, be argued that the White Chantry is wrong in its assertion that locking mages in Circles is the only possible way to keep the rest of the population safe from uncontrolled magic.

I suspect the Tevinter Templars are just for the sake of appearance; I can't argue that the Imperium manages to avoid being "overrun with abominations", though.

Silfren wrote...

This is not altogether true.  We know
that the mage Adralla created a counter for every known form of blood
magic--and it could be argued that her counters are usable by mages as
well as non-mages, given that a non-mage Warden can use the Litany
against Uldred, for starters, and as has already been mentioned, runes
exist that can be carved into objects to negate any and all magic.  For
that matter, we have a bit of lore that hints that Seekers are immune to
mind-control by blood mages.  It's a weak hint, but it is there
nonetheless.  So clearly Thedas DOES have the techonology to counter
magic, whether fueled by blood or otherwise.

Defensive in nature though, and (apparently) rare.

I don't see parity between mages and normals when the current defenses against mages are numbers, other mages, and soldiers willing to become addicts.  Even with the counters you mention, I'm not finding anything that could cause the cycle of mage repression/domination to be broken. 

Hey, now I'm wondering if the ruling class in Tevinter controls the Lyrium trade?

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
This is not altogether true.  We know that the mage Adralla created a counter for every known form of blood magic--and it could be argued that her counters are usable by mages as well as non-mages, given that a non-mage Warden can use the Litany against Uldred, for starters, and as has already been mentioned, runes exist that can be carved into objects to negate any and all magic.  For that matter, we have a bit of lore that hints that Seekers are immune to mind-control by blood mages.  It's a weak hint, but it is there nonetheless.  So clearly Thedas DOES have the techonology to counter magic, whether fueled by blood or otherwise.

Now there's some excellent points...  thanks!

So if we use some "devil's advocate" logic here...  the Chantry as it exists in Thedas during the game time frame derives quite a lot of its power from the notion that it protects the population from mages.  This is a huge conflict of interest that makes it likely that the Chantry would actively prevent research and/or spreading of knowledge about alternatives.

If the Chantry were actually interested in protecting everyone, you'd expect that a copy of the Litany would be on every Chanter's board.  You'd also expect that any Templar caught tormenting a mage would be executed on the spot for endangering the public.  After all, we've seen plenty of evidence that mages with nothing to lose will generally try to take a few bystanders down with them.

I think it is human nature to use an easy way out and stop looking for a better but harder solution.  Had the easy way out never been an option, I'm quite sure things like dweomer runes and the Litany of Adralla would be on every doorstep.  There's no reason to think that ingenuity couldn't have solved the problem with something other than murdering children when they emerge as mages.

[gaurdian9sunshine]

The only way mages will be able to live free as other men is if the opinion of mages changes, and I think something drastic will have to happen for that to happen. I am all for mages living as free men, but I don't see it working. I really don't like that just becsuase someone is born a certain way they have to be locked up. It's like locking up everyone that has the possibility of doing something bad. People don't trust things they don't understand. 

[AnImpossibleGirl]

Silfren wrote...

Poshible wrote...

Anders:"I'll show you why mages are feared..."

Anders period. The entire DA2 game proves this, all the blood mages running rampant. It is not just for the involvement with demons. It is the entire history of the Tevinter Imperium.and the belief in the the Maker and Andraste. Magic is meant to serve man not rule over him. Magic lead to the blights. Or so they say.

This argument falls COMPLETELY flat when you consider that Anders entire perspective exists explicitly because of the way the (white) Chantry has treated mages for a thousand years.  You CANNOT examine his actions without that context.  No, really, you can't, because you can't lock mages up, and then when they resort to extreme measures specifically because they are locked up, say that that is the reason you lock them up.  Logic doesn't work this way, and this is why just legal systems reject that kind of botched causal logic.

Fine. Grace. Remember her? Do you remember any of the mages from DA2? The ones that abducted Keran? I am sad for those that say "mages were driven to it". I am sorry, but the ends do not justify the means here and never will. They are not "locked up" like in jail either. But, when people become a danger to themselves and other's--they need to be...locked up.

I was also not using what he did, I was using how he acts. He is unstable. As most mages are. The argument as to why is academic. Mages are dangerous on thier own or through the connection with the fade. The Chantry merely seeks to control the chao's if they can not control it, they will purge it *exhaulted march* anybody? Fact is that blood magic is forbidden for a reason, as are free roaming mages. 

I see people call the Chantry evil daily. That is thier opinion, In my opinion that is a misunderstaning. I have no ties to religion, I am athiest. I side with the Chantry because the mage side has yet to show me self control. The only good mage I can place is Bethany; or Wynne--and even she is an abomination. Yet Wynne understands why this order must prevail. Bethany even comes to see the light. Huzzah!

Fact is, we are going to disagree on this. We will never agree, because I see things in a way you do not. You see things in a way I do not. I feel bad for them, I do. But, I see no reason to let them live freely. The Chantry's means do justify their ends. The mages do not. I can agree to disagree.

Legal systems do in fact accept this "botched casual logic" ever heard of profiling? Have you studied law? Politics? I have, which...in fact is why I take the side I take. Think about it. We even have legal electronic profilers.

Further more, the mages can separate from the circle if they so choose. Read Asunder?

Modifié par Poshible, 06 mai 2012 - 04:50 .

[Emzamination]

gaurdian9sunshine wrote...

The only way mages will be able to live free as other men is if the opinion of mages changes, and I think something drastic will have to happen for that to happen. I am all for mages living as free men, but I don't see it working. I really don't like that just becsuase someone is born a certain way they have to be locked up. It's like locking up everyone that has the possibility of doing something bad. People don't trust things they don't understand. 

A common cutpurse is quite different from someone who is constantly at risk of being possed by demonic entities and slaughter whole villages simply because they get angry.If mages are allowed to travel and walk around as freely as normal people, how do you suppose the templars will be able to track Abomination outbreaks in different parts of thedas? The mages are too dangerous to be left alive and should be purged.

[AnImpossibleGirl]

Emzamination wrote...

gaurdian9sunshine wrote...

The only way mages will be able to live free as other men is if the opinion of mages changes, and I think something drastic will have to happen for that to happen. I am all for mages living as free men, but I don't see it working. I really don't like that just becsuase someone is born a certain way they have to be locked up. It's like locking up everyone that has the possibility of doing something bad. People don't trust things they don't understand. 

A common cutpurse is quite different from someone who is constantly at risk of being possed by demonic entities and slaughter whole villages simply because they get angry.If mages are allowed to travel and walk around as freely as normal people, how do you suppose the templars will be able to track Abomination outbreaks in different parts of thedas? The mages are too dangerous to be left alive and should be purged.

You just made my night.

[GavrielKay]

Emzamination wrote...

gaurdian9sunshine wrote...

The only way mages will be able to live free as other men is if the opinion of mages changes, and I think something drastic will have to happen for that to happen. I am all for mages living as free men, but I don't see it working. I really don't like that just becsuase someone is born a certain way they have to be locked up. It's like locking up everyone that has the possibility of doing something bad. People don't trust things they don't understand. 

A common cutpurse is quite different from someone who is constantly at risk of being possed by demonic entities and slaughter whole villages simply because they get angry.If mages are allowed to travel and walk around as freely as normal people, how do you suppose the templars will be able to track Abomination outbreaks in different parts of thedas? The mages are too dangerous to be left alive and should be purged.

They already do have to deal with random abominations as children just coming in to their power can become possessed before Templars can abduct them.  They are born apparently randomly throughout Thedas, so no matter whether they are killed, captured or just trained it has to be a system that can deal with them anywhere.

Do you have any comments on the notion that other means of protection against demon possession and blood magic might have been sought if the Chantry hadn't been able to just lock them up?  Given we know the Litany of Adralla exists and dweomer runes exist, I see no reason why other easier to use and more potent wards might not have been developed had they been necessary.

[GavrielKay]

Poshible wrote...
Legal systems do in fact accept this "botched casual logic" ever heard of profiling? Have you studied law? Politics? I have, which...in fact is why I take the side I take. Think about it. We even have legal electronic profilers.

Profiling is about knowing who to question or watch, not grabbing those folks off the street and locking them up for life in case they might commit a crime someday.  Legal systems today (or at least any I'd want to be subjected to) operate on the principle of "innocent until proven guilty," not "guilty by association."

[Emzamination]

GavrielKay wrote...

They already do have to deal with random abominations as children just coming in to their power can become possessed before Templars can abduct them.  They are born apparently randomly throughout Thedas, so no matter whether they are killed, captured or just trained it has to be a system that can deal with them anywhere.

Do you have any comments on the notion that other means of protection against demon possession and blood magic might have been sought if the Chantry hadn't been able to just lock them up?  Given we know the Litany of Adralla exists and dweomer runes exist, I see no reason why other easier to use and more potent wards might not have been developed had they been necessary.

A few random abomination encounters here and there can be put down easily because the majority of mages are in the towers.Now lets say the thousands of mages all the circles house are allowed to walk free in thedas, then what? The risk of random abominations being formed just jumped from 5% to 95% and every family they slaughter will point their fingers at you and blame you for not ending the nightmare when you had the chance.Can you handle that kind of pressure?

The only system the order needs in place to deal with mages is search and destroy.Every single mage across thedas is a closed door with a hundred demons banging on the other side wanting to get in.In order to insure the security and continued stability of thedas every single door must be sealed for a safe and securer society.

The litany of Adrallas was created by mages of the circle of magi and the bard Adralla.It ONLY protects your mind from being controlled by blood magic, demons bind themselves to the mage's soul, not the mind so the litany is useless.

Why must it always boil down to "Am I to be destoryed for simply existing? I didn't ask for this curse".The were wolves asked me that question, sophia dryden asked me that question, connor asked me that question,the architect asked me that question,Anders asked me that question,Grace asked me that question,the mages who claimed not to have anything to do with the uprising asked me that question and the answer is... ABSO-FRIKIN-LUTELY. 

[Emzamination]

Poshible wrote...

You just made my night.

Glad to be of service 

Too many people try to think with their feelings instead of cold,calculation,infallible logic

[DKJaigen]

Emzamination wrote...

Poshible wrote...

You just made my night.

Glad to be of service 

Too many people try to think with their feelings instead of cold,calculation,infallible logic

It may be logic but your terribly shortsighted and you also lack vision to see the consequences of your ideas. As i said before in another thread the only thing the mages need to do attain complete victory over the chantry is by simply not being their. As the chantry led nations will fall to outside factions that are not as afraid of magic.

I do not say that the mages should immediately gain complete social freedom. But they need the freedom to research and advance themselves and find a way to counter possesion. And that is excatly why i support the mages over templars. The chantry forbids progress not because it fears what mages could with their new found freedom but because they lose their power. Which nation would support the chantry if the mages where able to safely run hospitals or other proffesions that could help a nation? And which nation would support the templar drug habit? Not one. Its easy to blame the mages that they have no control of themselves if they where never allowd to control themselves by the chantry.

Suffice to say supporting the templars is the road to dissolution of thedas as a whole. And from the looks of it time is running out. Darkspawn are evolving and what will happen if the last OG dies? The tevinter imperium is researching magic again and the qunari are building up their strenght.

[Emzamination]

DKJaigen wrote...

It may be logic but your terribly shortsighted and you also lack vision to see the consequences of your ideas. As i said before in another thread the only thing the mages need to do attain complete victory over the chantry is by simply not being their. As the chantry led nations will fall to outside factions that are not as afraid of magic.

I do not say that the mages should immediately gain complete social freedom. But they need the freedom to research and advance themselves and find a way to counter possesion. And that is excatly why i support the mages over templars. The chantry forbids progress not because it fears what mages could with their new found freedom but because they lose their power. Which nation would support the chantry if the mages where able to safely run hospitals or other proffesions that could help a nation? And which nation would support the templar drug habit? Not one. Its easy to blame the mages that they have no control of themselves if they where never allowd to control themselves by the chantry.

Suffice to say supporting the templars is the road to dissolution of thedas as a whole. And from the looks of it time is running out. Darkspawn are evolving and what will happen if the last OG dies? The tevinter imperium is researching magic again and the qunari are building up their strenght.

My actions will lead to a world free of abominations,blood magic,the fade and demons where the Elderly and young alike may once again enjoy the fresh outdoors without fear of death by some rogue abomination or having their minds warped by some blood mage on a power trip.The chantry will always be necessary as it inspires the spirit of the people,gives comfort and shelter to the down trodden and is our first and last line of defence against the demonic forces of the fade.The only outside factions powerful enough to challenge the chantry are the tevinter imperium and the qunari and no human,elve or dwarf is going to choose those two over the chantry.Besides any nation that is found harboring mages and trys to secede from the chantry risk an exalted march they can't defend against.You're right tho, mages must simply not be there, in any capacity.

The chantry does not fear so much as abhor the power of  mages.Mages have freedom now in minranthos and what progress are they making? Performing blood rituals fueled by innocent lives for their own politics and power gain in the streets.The destruction of the Chantry will only lead to the ressurection of the tevinter imperium or the forced enslavement of all races to the qun.No sane nation would ever support the mages just by the Imperiums history of blood magic,slaves,unleashing the old gods and bringing demons into the world as "pets".

You're right, time is running out and the templar order will do what is must to eradicate the foul darkspawn and barbaric qunari in order to insure the safety of the lands.Every single old god along with minranthos must be cast to the bottom of the fade and made to burn far from the sight of the maker.The OgB is a wild card but ultimately must be destroyed as well because the maker is the only true god of thedas.

Modifié par Emzamination, 06 mai 2012 - 11:02 .

[Sidney]

gaurdian9sunshine wrote...

The only way mages will be able to live free as other men is if the opinion of mages changes, and I think something drastic will have to happen for that to happen. I am all for mages living as free men, but I don't see it working. I really don't like that just becsuase someone is born a certain way they have to be locked up. It's like locking up everyone that has the possibility of doing something bad. People don't trust things they don't understand. 

Well but it isn't just about blood magic. A lot of the dislike of mages is built around the abominations they turn into - and we've seen plenty of it to know it isn't an "odd" event" -  that makes them so frightening. Opinions can't change about this because even in the circles with training and guidance the mages can do all abomination. You can argue that proves the circles have failed but the other option is to have them flip out without anyone around the notice they've lost it.

[DKJaigen]

Sidney wrote...

gaurdian9sunshine wrote...

The only way mages will be able to live free as other men is if the opinion of mages changes, and I think something drastic will have to happen for that to happen. I am all for mages living as free men, but I don't see it working. I really don't like that just becsuase someone is born a certain way they have to be locked up. It's like locking up everyone that has the possibility of doing something bad. People don't trust things they don't understand. 

Well but it isn't just about blood magic. A lot of the dislike of mages is built around the abominations they turn into - and we've seen plenty of it to know it isn't an "odd" event" -  that makes them so frightening. Opinions can't change about this because even in the circles with training and guidance the mages can do all abomination. You can argue that proves the circles have failed but the other option is to have them flip out without anyone around the notice they've lost it.

Blame the chantry for that. for nearly a 1000 years they have banned any form of research into demons. The circles have a lot of catching up to do. For the record i dont support that mages should be free completely but what the chantry is doing is just bull**** and it soley exist to keep the chantry in power and not for the benefit of the mages or even the common people.

[DKJaigen]

Emzamination wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

It may be logic but your terribly shortsighted and you also lack vision to see the consequences of your ideas. As i said before in another thread the only thing the mages need to do attain complete victory over the chantry is by simply not being their. As the chantry led nations will fall to outside factions that are not as afraid of magic.

I do not say that the mages should immediately gain complete social freedom. But they need the freedom to research and advance themselves and find a way to counter possesion. And that is excatly why i support the mages over templars. The chantry forbids progress not because it fears what mages could with their new found freedom but because they lose their power. Which nation would support the chantry if the mages where able to safely run hospitals or other proffesions that could help a nation? And which nation would support the templar drug habit? Not one. Its easy to blame the mages that they have no control of themselves if they where never allowd to control themselves by the chantry.

Suffice to say supporting the templars is the road to dissolution of thedas as a whole. And from the looks of it time is running out. Darkspawn are evolving and what will happen if the last OG dies? The tevinter imperium is researching magic again and the qunari are building up their strenght.

My actions will lead to a world free of abominations,blood magic,the fade and demons where the Elderly and young alike may once again enjoy the fresh outdoors without fear of death by some rogue abomination or having their minds warped by some blood mage on a power trip.The chantry will always be necessary as it inspires the spirit of the people,gives comfort and shelter to the down trodden and is our first and last line of defence against the demonic forces of the fade.The only outside factions powerful enough to challenge the chantry are the tevinter imperium and the qunari and no human,elve or dwarf is going to choose those two over the chantry.Besides any nation that is found harboring mages and trys to secede from the chantry risk an exalted march they can't defend against.You're right tho, mages must simply not be there, in any capacity.

The chantry does not fear so much as abhor the power of  mages.Mages have freedom now in minranthos and what progress are they making? Performing blood rituals fueled by innocent lives for their own politics and power gain in the streets.The destruction of the Chantry will only lead to the ressurection of the tevinter imperium or the forced enslavement of all races to the qun.No sane nation would ever support the mages just by the Imperiums history of blood magic,slaves,unleashing the old gods and bringing demons into the world as "pets".

You're right, time is running out and the templar order will do what is must to eradicate the foul darkspawn and barbaric qunari in order to insure the safety of the lands.Every single old god along with minranthos must be cast to the bottom of the fade and made to burn far from the sight of the maker.The OgB is a wild card but ultimately must be destroyed as well because the maker is the only true god of thedas.

The chantry will be crushed because your chantry states have always proven weak without mages.

[Cigne]

DKJaigen wrote...


Blame the chantry for that. for nearly a 1000 years they have banned any form of research into demons.

I'm sure there's been a lot of research into demons in Tevinter. You know, where the mages rule and slave sacrifice is acceptable.

[GavrielKay]

Cigne wrote...
I'm sure there's been a lot of research into demons in Tevinter. You know, where the mages rule and slave sacrifice is acceptable.

And where despite there being free mages all over the place, there isn't a plague of abominations that have wiped out the entire territory and are now headed towards the rest of Thedas?  Perhaps they have managed to find ways to avoid being possessed despite their use of blood magic and lust for power.  We wouldn't know, really.

Anyway, I find it telling that it is the "normals" calling for death and destruction and not the mages.  After all, you could have started the argument with something like - well, if they can find a way to modify the rite of Tranquility so that it just renders mages normal rather than lobotomized, then maybe we'd be ok.  But no, killing the mages seems to be all that would make some folks happy.  Sounds like uncontrolled violence is on the Chantry side.

[GavrielKay]

Emzamination wrote...
My actions will lead to a world free of abominations,blood magic,the fade and demons where the Elderly and young alike may once again enjoy the fresh outdoors without fear of death by some rogue abomination or having their minds warped by some blood mage on a power trip.

Except that you can never be free of mages, only constantly on the lookout for new children that you'll have to murder.  And parents, knowing their children will be outright murdered if they are found to be mages, might try even harder to hide them than some do now.

Given who's talking about mass murder, I find it interesting that it's mages you think are on a power trip.

[Emzamination]

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
My actions will lead to a world free of abominations,blood magic,the fade and demons where the Elderly and young alike may once again enjoy the fresh outdoors without fear of death by some rogue abomination or having their minds warped by some blood mage on a power trip.

Except that you can never be free of mages, only constantly on the lookout for new children that you'll have to murder.  And parents, knowing their children will be outright murdered if they are found to be mages, might try even harder to hide them than some do now.

Given who's talking about mass murder, I find it interesting that it's mages you think are on a power trip.

Mages are born only from bloodlines that have mage progenitors.The soloution is very simple if a mage child is discovered, chop down the entire bloodline and thus steadily and consistently ending the threat of mages forever.In the end there is no need for parents to hide the mages because they and any sympathizers will be joining them.For me to be on a powertrip I'd having to be killing mages to gain power or control, this is not the case.I kill the mages for the continued safety of ferelden and the greater good.Will this weigh on my conscience? of course but as loghain once stated "I will answer to the maker for my crimes".

I'm not heartless after all but seeing the people of thedas living without fear will make the mage's sacrifice worthwhile.This war will need people that know the heart of war, who can make the tough decisions and sacrifices that need to be made and still find the will to go on. 

[Emzamination]

DKJaigen wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

It may be logic but your terribly shortsighted and you also lack vision to see the consequences of your ideas. As i said before in another thread the only thing the mages need to do attain complete victory over the chantry is by simply not being their. As the chantry led nations will fall to outside factions that are not as afraid of magic.

I do not say that the mages should immediately gain complete social freedom. But they need the freedom to research and advance themselves and find a way to counter possesion. And that is excatly why i support the mages over templars. The chantry forbids progress not because it fears what mages could with their new found freedom but because they lose their power. Which nation would support the chantry if the mages where able to safely run hospitals or other proffesions that could help a nation? And which nation would support the templar drug habit? Not one. Its easy to blame the mages that they have no control of themselves if they where never allowd to control themselves by the chantry.

Suffice to say supporting the templars is the road to dissolution of thedas as a whole. And from the looks of it time is running out. Darkspawn are evolving and what will happen if the last OG dies? The tevinter imperium is researching magic again and the qunari are building up their strenght.

My actions will lead to a world free of abominations,blood magic,the fade and demons where the Elderly and young alike may once again enjoy the fresh outdoors without fear of death by some rogue abomination or having their minds warped by some blood mage on a power trip.The chantry will always be necessary as it inspires the spirit of the people,gives comfort and shelter to the down trodden and is our first and last line of defence against the demonic forces of the fade.The only outside factions powerful enough to challenge the chantry are the tevinter imperium and the qunari and no human,elve or dwarf is going to choose those two over the chantry.Besides any nation that is found harboring mages and trys to secede from the chantry risk an exalted march they can't defend against.You're right tho, mages must simply not be there, in any capacity.

The chantry does not fear so much as abhor the power of  mages.Mages have freedom now in minranthos and what progress are they making? Performing blood rituals fueled by innocent lives for their own politics and power gain in the streets.The destruction of the Chantry will only lead to the ressurection of the tevinter imperium or the forced enslavement of all races to the qun.No sane nation would ever support the mages just by the Imperiums history of blood magic,slaves,unleashing the old gods and bringing demons into the world as "pets".

You're right, time is running out and the templar order will do what is must to eradicate the foul darkspawn and barbaric qunari in order to insure the safety of the lands.Every single old god along with minranthos must be cast to the bottom of the fade and made to burn far from the sight of the maker.The OgB is a wild card but ultimately must be destroyed as well because the maker is the only true god of thedas.

The chantry will be crushed because your chantry states have always proven weak without mages.

Tis you and any sympathizers that will be crushed! The chantry is the heart that sustains the maker and will never fall.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Emzamination wrote...

Mages are born only from bloodlines that have mage progenitors.

That's actually patently incorrect. Mages can be born to anyone. It's only that in Tevinter, magical talent hasbeen fostered in family bloodlines. The same magical talent that has helped Thedas win against the Qunari battle after battle. Soldiers and mages win wars, not the Maker.

[Emzamination]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Mages are born only from bloodlines that have mage progenitors.

That's actually patently incorrect. Mages can be born to anyone. It's only that in Tevinter, magical talent hasbeen fostered in family bloodlines. The same magical talent that has helped Thedas win against the Qunari battle after battle. Soldiers and mages win wars, not the Maker.

Leandra to hawke: "When I married your father, I was bringing more magic into our bloodline, not less"

Only miranthos has had to face the continued assault by the qunari but as the rebellion in kirkwall proved, the templars are more than adequate to address the qunari threat, mages are not needed.It is faith in the maker that gives one's spirit the strength to keep raising their sword and pushing forward to fight.

[GavrielKay]

Emzamination wrote...
Only miranthos has had to face the continued assault by the qunari but as the rebellion in kirkwall proved, the templars are more than adequate to address the qunari threat, mages are not needed.It is faith in the maker that gives one's spirit the strength to keep raising their sword and pushing forward to fight.

That may sound good as an extremist viewpoint on a forum, but in the game it is stated that mages have been
valuable in defending their homelands from invaders.

[Silfren]

Poshible wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Poshible wrote...

Anders:"I'll show you why mages are feared..."

Anders period. The entire DA2 game proves this, all the blood mages running rampant. It is not just for the involvement with demons. It is the entire history of the Tevinter Imperium.and the belief in the the Maker and Andraste. Magic is meant to serve man not rule over him. Magic lead to the blights. Or so they say.

This argument falls COMPLETELY flat when you consider that Anders entire perspective exists explicitly because of the way the (white) Chantry has treated mages for a thousand years.  You CANNOT examine his actions without that context.  No, really, you can't, because you can't lock mages up, and then when they resort to extreme measures specifically because they are locked up, say that that is the reason you lock them up.  Logic doesn't work this way, and this is why just legal systems reject that kind of botched causal logic.

Fine. Grace. Remember her? Do you remember any of the mages from DA2? The ones that abducted Keran? I am sad for those that say "mages were driven to it". I am sorry, but the ends do not justify the means here and never will. They are not "locked up" like in jail either. But, when people become a danger to themselves and other's--they need to be...locked up.

I was also not using what he did, I was using how he acts. He is unstable. As most mages are. The argument as to why is academic. Mages are dangerous on thier own or through the connection with the fade. The Chantry merely seeks to control the chao's if they can not control it, they will purge it *exhaulted march* anybody? Fact is that blood magic is forbidden for a reason, as are free roaming mages. 

I see people call the Chantry evil daily. That is thier opinion, In my opinion that is a misunderstaning. I have no ties to religion, I am athiest. I side with the Chantry because the mage side has yet to show me self control. The only good mage I can place is Bethany; or Wynne--and even she is an abomination. Yet Wynne understands why this order must prevail. Bethany even comes to see the light. Huzzah!

Fact is, we are going to disagree on this. We will never agree, because I see things in a way you do not. You see things in a way I do not. I feel bad for them, I do. But, I see no reason to let them live freely. The Chantry's means do justify their ends. The mages do not. I can agree to disagree.

Legal systems do in fact accept this "botched casual logic" ever heard of profiling? Have you studied law? Politics? I have, which...in fact is why I take the side I take. Think about it. We even have legal electronic profilers.

Further more, the mages can separate from the circle if they so choose. Read Asunder?

The Chantry's MEANS justify their ENDS?  I can only assume--and hope--that was an accidental mistype.  

Either way, if the Chantry's ends OR means justify the other, then you can hardly claim that the mages' own do not.  But then I hold that ensuring a base level of freedom for all people is vastly more important than perceived security.  Especially when that supposed threat to security appears to be largely overstated.

The mages ARE locked up; this is indisputable.  The very lore of both Origins and DA2 is explicit on this point.  It's the entire bloody point of the Circles in the first place

Going forward, Grace is a single example among many.  She is the exception, not the rule.  Neither is she an exception that proves the rule.  Even so, there is evidence that she behaves as she does as a result o the Chantry, not in spite of it.  Tarohne is a better example of what you're trying to argue here, but even she could be argued as deciding that mages should rule mundanes because the  Circle system created by the Chantry has propagated an either/or mindset: either we rule the mages or they will rule us.  That mindset is NOT inevitable, but the Chantry has preached it for so long it shouldn't surprise anyone that both good and evil mages will have internalized the message.

One mage gone rogue for unrelated reasons does NOT invalidate my argument that the Chantry in large part creates the very problem it claims to fight.  I have never once claimed that NO mage, ever, will ever behave in immoral or illegal ways.  I have only said that that the fact that some will does not justify the Circle system as a preventative measure against such.  Just as no real world criminals justify the mass locking up of whole populations, regardless of any crime such an act may reduce.

Most of the mages we see do make statements that actually back up my claim here.  They are fighting for their freedom, the basic right to live as freely as do the rest of the people, who DO, regardless of claims to the contrary, have considerable more autonomy in their daily lives than any mages do. 

Profiling involves many things, but it does not involve locking up entire populations of people.  For that matter, there are arguments to be made AGAINST profiling, which I'll not go into here.  The point is merely that yes, I'm familiar with the concept, and reject it as not justifying the wholesale condemnation of all mages, everywhere.

Finally, yes, I've read Asunder, and yes I'm aware that the mages chose to rebel against the Chantry.  I'm completely at a loss as to what your point is, however.  If you're trying to claim that it means that the mages have the legal option to say no to the Chantry, you are simply incorrect.  The book lays out that they chose to rebel against the system, causing a war in the process because it is illegal for them to do this.  If that's what you meant, then again I don't understand why you brought it up because I don't see that it has anything to do with this discussion.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2012 - 01:01 .