629 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Learn from the Dalish, keep the Templars, use the runes that negate the working of magic, teach Templar abilities to Dwarves and City Guardsmen, study demonology and how to trap demons in certain areas (like Wynne and Wilhelm did), and so on and so forth.

Poshible wrote...

Fine. Grace. Remember her?

Grace's actions -- and that of the entire structure of Best Served Cold -- make no sense in pro-mage playthroughs.

[Silfren]

Emzamination wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
My actions will lead to a world free of abominations,blood magic,the fade and demons where the Elderly and young alike may once again enjoy the fresh outdoors without fear of death by some rogue abomination or having their minds warped by some blood mage on a power trip.

Except that you can never be free of mages, only constantly on the lookout for new children that you'll have to murder.  And parents, knowing their children will be outright murdered if they are found to be mages, might try even harder to hide them than some do now.

Given who's talking about mass murder, I find it interesting that it's mages you think are on a power trip.

Mages are born only from bloodlines that have mage progenitors.The soloution is very simple if a mage child is discovered, chop down the entire bloodline and thus steadily and consistently ending the threat of mages forever.In the end there is no need for parents to hide the mages because they and any sympathizers will be joining them.For me to be on a powertrip I'd having to be killing mages to gain power or control, this is not the case.I kill the mages for the continued safety of ferelden and the greater good.Will this weigh on my conscience? of course but as loghain once stated "I will answer to the maker for my crimes".

I'm not heartless after all but seeing the people of thedas living without fear will make the mage's sacrifice worthwhile.This war will need people that know the heart of war, who can make the tough decisions and sacrifices that need to be made and still find the will to go on. 

I'm not sure we can conclusively say that magic ONLY shows up in certain bloodlines.  Especially since there is a vague hint that mages are more common now than they used to be.  Some families may be more likely to produce mage children, especially when they intermarry such as to bring more magic into the line, but that alone shouldn't lead to the conclusion that magic is purely a genetic issue that only shows up in certain bloodlines.

[TEWR]

Emzamination, if you were to kill every family that had a Mage in any part of their lifetime you'd have to kill every Elf in existence, seeing as we're told that in the old days of Arlathan every Elf was a mage.

So yea... let's exterminate an entire race out of petty fears and hatred and whatnot. That always goes over well.

Remind anyone of a certain person?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 mai 2012 - 12:45 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination, if you were to kill every family that had a Mage in any part of their lifetime you'd have to kill every Elf in existence, seeing as we're told that in the old days of Arlathan every Elf was a mage.

So yea... let's exterminate an entire race out of petty fears and hatred and whatnot. That always goes over well.

Remind anyone of a certain person?

Also, presumably, every dwarf.  And every human and every kossith, if Sandal's prophecy can be taken to refer to all people of every race.

[Emzamination]

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Only miranthos has had to face the continued assault by the qunari but as the rebellion in kirkwall proved, the templars are more than adequate to address the qunari threat, mages are not needed.It is faith in the maker that gives one's spirit the strength to keep raising their sword and pushing forward to fight.

That may sound good as an extremist viewpoint on a forum, but in the game it is stated that mages have been
valuable in defending their homelands from invaders.

I'm not saying being able to shoot lightning and bring down meteors isn't useful but the risk is too high.

[Emzamination]

Silfren wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
My actions will lead to a world free of abominations,blood magic,the fade and demons where the Elderly and young alike may once again enjoy the fresh outdoors without fear of death by some rogue abomination or having their minds warped by some blood mage on a power trip.

Except that you can never be free of mages, only constantly on the lookout for new children that you'll have to murder.  And parents, knowing their children will be outright murdered if they are found to be mages, might try even harder to hide them than some do now.

Given who's talking about mass murder, I find it interesting that it's mages you think are on a power trip.

Mages are born only from bloodlines that have mage progenitors.The soloution is very simple if a mage child is discovered, chop down the entire bloodline and thus steadily and consistently ending the threat of mages forever.In the end there is no need for parents to hide the mages because they and any sympathizers will be joining them.For me to be on a powertrip I'd having to be killing mages to gain power or control, this is not the case.I kill the mages for the continued safety of ferelden and the greater good.Will this weigh on my conscience? of course but as loghain once stated "I will answer to the maker for my crimes".

I'm not heartless after all but seeing the people of thedas living without fear will make the mage's sacrifice worthwhile.This war will need people that know the heart of war, who can make the tough decisions and sacrifices that need to be made and still find the will to go on. 

I'm not sure we can conclusively say that magic ONLY shows up in certain bloodlines.  Especially since there is a vague hint that mages are more common now than they used to be.  Some families may be more likely to produce mage children, especially when they intermarry such as to bring more magic into the line, but that alone shouldn't lead to the conclusion that magic is purely a genetic issue that only shows up in certain bloodlines.

The little red head dwarf girl with pigtails that wants to be a mage in orzamar tells you the tevinter imperium once had the genealogy of every human family that could produce a mage recorded.

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination, if you were to kill every family that had a Mage in any part of their lifetime you'd have to kill every Elf in existence, seeing as we're told that in the old days of Arlathan every Elf was a mage.

So yea... let's exterminate an entire race out of petty fears and hatred and whatnot. That always goes over well.

Remind anyone of a certain person?

Elves don't believe in the maker and flee to the qun to oppose the chantry, the shemlen will not be missing them. Chop Chop

[Silfren]

Emzamination wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
My actions will lead to a world free of abominations,blood magic,the fade and demons where the Elderly and young alike may once again enjoy the fresh outdoors without fear of death by some rogue abomination or having their minds warped by some blood mage on a power trip.

Except that you can never be free of mages, only constantly on the lookout for new children that you'll have to murder.  And parents, knowing their children will be outright murdered if they are found to be mages, might try even harder to hide them than some do now.

Given who's talking about mass murder, I find it interesting that it's mages you think are on a power trip.

Mages are born only from bloodlines that have mage progenitors.The soloution is very simple if a mage child is discovered, chop down the entire bloodline and thus steadily and consistently ending the threat of mages forever.In the end there is no need for parents to hide the mages because they and any sympathizers will be joining them.For me to be on a powertrip I'd having to be killing mages to gain power or control, this is not the case.I kill the mages for the continued safety of ferelden and the greater good.Will this weigh on my conscience? of course but as loghain once stated "I will answer to the maker for my crimes".

I'm not heartless after all but seeing the people of thedas living without fear will make the mage's sacrifice worthwhile.This war will need people that know the heart of war, who can make the tough decisions and sacrifices that need to be made and still find the will to go on. 

I'm not sure we can conclusively say that magic ONLY shows up in certain bloodlines.  Especially since there is a vague hint that mages are more common now than they used to be.  Some families may be more likely to produce mage children, especially when they intermarry such as to bring more magic into the line, but that alone shouldn't lead to the conclusion that magic is purely a genetic issue that only shows up in certain bloodlines.

The little red head dwarf girl with pigtails that wants to be a mage in orzamar tells you the tevinter imperium once had the genealogy of every human family that could produce a mage recorded.

What she actually says is that Tevinter once had genealogies of every family KNOWN to produce a mage child.  Even so, this does not mean that families that never had mages show up in their line before will NEVER have a mage show up in it, ever. 

[Emzamination]

Silfren wrote...

What she actually says is that Tevinter once had genealogies of every family KNOWN to produce a mage child.  Even so, this does not mean that families that never had mages show up in their line before will NEVER have a mage show up in it, ever. 

Leandra dismisses that when she says by consorting with hawkes father she brought more magic into their bloodline, not less.I wouldn't go so far as to say magic is genetic but you definitely have to have had a mage ancestor.

[Silfren]

Emzamination wrote...

Silfren wrote...

What she actually says is that Tevinter once had genealogies of every family KNOWN to produce a mage child.  Even so, this does not mean that families that never had mages show up in their line before will NEVER have a mage show up in it, ever. 

Leandra dismisses that when she says by consorting with hawkes father she brought more magic into their bloodline, not less.I wouldn't go so far as to say magic is genetic but you definitely have to have had a mage ancestor.

If you have to have had a mage ancestor, then magic is genetic. 

It's true enough that since Leandra's family was known for producing mages fairly commonly, that when she married another mage she only made that tendency stronger.  But I don't think it necessarily means that families which never produced a mage before never will. 

Especially not when we do know that at one time, at least per elven legend, ALL elves had magic, and the Deep Roads expedition strongly hints that at one time, dwarves were mages as well.  

Remember that in the Hanged Man, a guy suggests there are more mages being born today than there used to be.  This implies an environmental factor.  He even points toward "lyrium in the water," and it is already established by the game that lyrium is indeed directly connected with magic.  It's how templars gain their abilities (notwithstanding Alistair's contradictory statement that doesn't make sense anyway), and its theorized that centuries of over-exposure to lyrium is what gives the dwarves their measure of immunity to magic.  

[TEWR]

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination, if you were to kill every family that had a Mage in any part of their lifetime you'd have to kill every Elf in existence, seeing as we're told that in the old days of Arlathan every Elf was a mage.

So yea... let's exterminate an entire race out of petty fears and hatred and whatnot. That always goes over well.

Remind anyone of a certain person?

Elves don't believe in the maker and flee to the qun to oppose the chantry, the shemlen will not be missing them. Chop Chop

Yup that settles it. You're either a dedicated troll, a fanatical Templar supporter, or both.

Silfren wrote...

Also, presumably, every dwarf.  And every human and every kossith, if Sandal's prophecy can be taken to refer to all people of every race.

Indeed. Whether Dwarves can regain the ability to be mages is something up to speculation, for now. Right now, only half-Dwarves like Sandal can.

Emzamination wrote...


I'm not saying being able to shoot lightning and bring down meteors isn't useful but the risk is too high.

I'm sure that'll be a great comfort to all of Thedas when the Qunari invade again and conquer Thedas again. Without Mages, Thedas is doomed. Mages are what helped to repel the Qunari far enough back that there was a standstill in the war.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 mai 2012 - 02:10 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination, if you were to kill every family that had a Mage in any part of their lifetime you'd have to kill every Elf in existence, seeing as we're told that in the old days of Arlathan every Elf was a mage.

So yea... let's exterminate an entire race out of petty fears and hatred and whatnot. That always goes over well.

Remind anyone of a certain person?

Elves don't believe in the maker and flee to the qun to oppose the chantry, the shemlen will not be missing them. Chop Chop

Yup that settles it. You're either a dedicated troll, a fanatical Templar supporter, or both.

Silfren wrote...

Also, presumably, every dwarf.  And every human and every kossith, if Sandal's prophecy can be taken to refer to all people of every race.

Indeed. Whether Dwarves can regain the ability to be mages is something up to speculation, for now. Right now, only half-Dwarves like Sandal can.

Emzamination wrote...


I'm not saying being able to shoot lightning and bring down meteors isn't useful but the risk is too high.

I'm sure that'll be a great comfort to all of Thedas when the Qunari invade again and conquer Thedas again. Without Mages, Thedas is doomed. Mages are what helped to repel the Qunari far enough back that there was a standstill in the war.

If magic is indeed genetic, we could always use the example of Sandal to breed magic back into the dwarves. 

Idea!

Let's institute a forced-breeding program.  Every family known to produce mage children is to start breeding with dwarves.  In case there is more to magic than genetics, let us also require that these breeding groups ingest half a gallon of lyrium-infused water per week.  Of course we have to use Sandal in this.  We'll breed him with dwarf women to see what happens, but let's also be sure to breed him with human and elven women from known mage lines.

Justification?  Hell, that's an easy one.  We'll need a mage army for that looming day when the qunari invade Ferelden.

[TEWR]

Xanthos Aeducan supports Dwarven breeding programs.

I just found something interesting: Merrill will remark in the Fade of a way to defend oneself against a Sloth Demon. It's the obvious really. Thinking active thoughts. Running, jumping, etc.

Makes sense really. I imagine the same line of thought holds true for the rest. For Pride, exhibit humility and think such thoughts (though Audacity will say that a snarky Hawke's wit made him stronger). For Rage, keep a cool and level head and don't let your anger get the best of you.

For Desire want nothing. For Hunger, display satisfaction.

Of course, it's easier said then done for the demons at the Sloth level. Since those are the weakest ones that display intelligence, I imagine they can create such thoughts if they wished. I know Desire Demons can and logically one can assume that Pride Demons can do the same thing, since they're more powerful then Desire Demons.

I also know Desire Demons can mind control people. Again, one can logically assume that Pride Demons do the same thing -- and indeed, every companion says they were mind controlled, be it by the Pride Demon or the Desire Demon.

Anyway, I'm starting to go a bit off track. But Merrill's comments are a good indication of why Mages should take up demonology (which, despite the Chantry's efforts is not the same thing as blood magic.)

[dragonflight288]

Anyway, I'm starting to go a bit off track. But Merrill's comments are a good indication of why Mages should take up demonology (which, despite the Chantry's efforts is not the same thing as blood magic.)

To be fair, the chantry calls any mage using magic not practiced by the Circles (Shape-shifting by Morrigan, for example) a maleficar anyway. And I honestly don't see the Chantry saying Arcane Warriors as something to be accepted. It could easily put mages on a more even playing field with templars, using weapons and armor instead of the cloth robes a sword can easily go through.

[DPSSOC]

Silfren wrote...
Justification?  Hell, that's an easy one.  We'll need a mage army for that looming day when the qunari invade Ferelden.

I dunno the Qunari don't seem all that threatening after DA2.  I mean their top soldier got beat down by a guy in a dress armed with a stick.

No we need mages to deal with the next Blight, the Qunari are just an annoyance.

[dragonflight288]

I dunno the Qunari don't seem all that threatening after DA2. I mean their top soldier got beat down by a guy in a dress armed with a stick.

No we need mages to deal with the next Blight, the Qunari are just an annoyance.

To quote Flemeth, only fools ignore history.

Going by the lore, the Qunari are technologically advanced above all other races in Thedas. The last time they attacked in force, they conquered most of Thedas and only by using mages were they driven back. Their prejudice against magic made them vulnerable to it because they didn't understand its strengths and weaknesses. Without mages, the Qunari would be ruling Thedas.

[CrimsonZephyr]

DPSSOC wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Justification?  Hell, that's an easy one.  We'll need a mage army for that looming day when the qunari invade Ferelden.

I dunno the Qunari don't seem all that threatening after DA2.  I mean their top soldier got beat down by a guy in a dress armed with a stick.

No we need mages to deal with the next Blight, the Qunari are just an annoyance.

The Arishok's party was more like a band of shipwrecked marines. They had no armor, crappy weapons, and no artillery. If they have those, mages would be needed.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Emzamination wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Mages are born only from bloodlines that have mage progenitors.

That's actually patently incorrect. Mages can be born to anyone. It's only that in Tevinter, magical talent hasbeen fostered in family bloodlines. The same magical talent that has helped Thedas win against the Qunari battle after battle. Soldiers and mages win wars, not the Maker.

Leandra to hawke: "When I married your father, I was bringing more magic into our bloodline, not less"

Only miranthos has had to face the continued assault by the qunari but as the rebellion in kirkwall proved, the templars are more than adequate to address the qunari threat, mages are not needed.It is faith in the maker that gives one's spirit the strength to keep raising their sword and pushing forward to fight.

That implies there was already some magic in the bloodline already, right?

Also, did you forget how Orsino managed to hold off an entire warband of Qunari by himself?

And the Maker can't help you when you're dead.

[GavrielKay]

Emzamination wrote...
Leandra dismisses that when she says by consorting with hawkes father she brought more magic into their bloodline, not less.I wouldn't go so far as to say magic is genetic but you definitely have to have had a mage ancestor.

Leandra is hardly an expert on genetics or magic.  If you would take her word as an excuse to exterminate elves and entire families across Thedas, then that's not much of a debate.

Any solution that involves mass extermination of sentient beings is plain evil.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 07 mai 2012 - 06:00 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
It may be logic but your terribly shortsighted and you also lack vision to see the consequences of your ideas.

The irony. It burns.

The thing is there is no perfect solution.
There is only a bad solution (circles, templars) and a even worse solution. Or no solution, just leave the problem unchecked.

I see a lot of players have a really naive view of things, thinking everything will work out, and thiking that a perfect solution is just around the corner. And of course, they interpret everything the Chantry does as self-serving.
Like the chantry isn't composed of people. Tons of pople.

And yes, people can be locked up for the safety of others - we do it all the time. We lock up sick people to stop them spreading a desease. We lock up crazy and violent people to stop them.
Mages are more dangerous than any of those groups.
And we shouldn't lock them up...becuase that makes them unhappy?

Oy...:D:D:D

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For Desire want nothing.

Of course, it's easier said then done

Yeah. Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day?

Oh god.... brain bleach please.

That only covers the lust aspect though. You also have to contend with power, greed, true love, etc.

[Reznore57]

Sure there's no perfect solution ,but remember why the Chantry exist in the first place?
Not because of abominations ,but because mages abuse and misuse their powers.
The same can be said about the chantry ,thought , it seems like the lesser of two evils .
The irony is Andraste might have been a mage , she fought to freed everyone and did not condemn mages but the tirany of magic.

And mages are dangerous , there 's no denying that , but they can be really helpful.Remember they do have healers.

Locking powerful people , and drive them to despair , is hardly a good solution ,what happened in Kirkwall is logic.

The thing is templars should exist but have mages among them.And the circle should be a school , where mages are checked and trained .They should be able to live among society in part.

I'm not saying it's the perfect solution or it would work out in a world like Thedas , but the chantry needs to change a lot.

Chantry people are not all white and tend to use their faith in non constructive ways , remember the elves?
Freed by Andraste , and attacked and disgrace by the chantry later because they wanted to go back to their old ways?

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
It may be logic but your terribly shortsighted and you also lack vision to see the consequences of your ideas.

The irony. It burns.

The thing is there is no perfect solution.
There is only a bad solution (circles, templars) and a even worse solution. Or no solution, just leave the problem unchecked.

I see a lot of players have a really naive view of things, thinking everything will work out, and thiking that a perfect solution is just around the corner. And of course, they interpret everything the Chantry does as self-serving.
Like the chantry isn't composed of people. Tons of pople.

And yes, people can be locked up for the safety of others - we do it all the time. We lock up sick people to stop them spreading a desease. We lock up crazy and violent people to stop them.
Mages are more dangerous than any of those groups.
And we shouldn't lock them up...becuase that makes them unhappy?

Oy...:D:D:D

I dont believe in perfection. But you just say that we should never look for improvement. If everybody thought like you we still be caveman. And yes we lock up crazy and sick people but we dont unnecessarily strip their rights. Tell me Lotion what is point to make people hate mages? what is point that they cannot even mary or have childeren or even run a clinic to help other people? Oh yes to keep the chantry in control. And abominations  are at best an annoyance. If a mage goes crazy you put it down a disease or a mental illness is more difficult to battle then abomination

[Emzamination]

Silfren wrote...

If you have to have had a mage ancestor, then magic is genetic. 

It's true enough that since Leandra's family was known for producing mages fairly commonly, that when she married another mage she only made that tendency stronger.  But I don't think it necessarily means that families which never produced a mage before never will. 

Especially not when we do know that at one time, at least per elven legend, ALL elves had magic, and the Deep Roads expedition strongly hints that at one time, dwarves were mages as well.  

Remember that in the Hanged Man, a guy suggests there are more mages being born today than there used to be.  This implies an environmental factor.  He even points toward "lyrium in the water," and it is already established by the game that lyrium is indeed directly connected with magic.  It's how templars gain their abilities (notwithstanding Alistair's contradictory statement that doesn't make sense anyway), and its theorized that centuries of over-exposure to lyrium is what gives the dwarves their measure of immunity to magic.  

Everyone born of the mage's line would have to have magic for it to be called genetic.It works in a way more akin to the force.

So every elf with magic had a mage ancestor? My point is proven

Alistair didn't lie, both the warden and alistair can use templar powers without the use of lyrium.lyrium justt amplifys the power.