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[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination, if you were to kill every family that had a Mage in any part of their lifetime you'd have to kill every Elf in existence, seeing as we're told that in the old days of Arlathan every Elf was a mage.

So yea... let's exterminate an entire race out of petty fears and hatred and whatnot. That always goes over well.

Remind anyone of a certain person?

Elves don't believe in the maker and flee to the qun to oppose the chantry, the shemlen will not be missing them. Chop Chop

Yup that settles it. You're either a dedicated troll, a fanatical Templar supporter, or both.

Emzamination wrote...


I'm not saying being able to shoot lightning and bring down meteors isn't useful but the risk is too high.

I'm sure that'll be a great comfort to all of Thedas when the Qunari invade again and conquer Thedas again. Without Mages, Thedas is doomed. Mages are what helped to repel the Qunari far enough back that there was a standstill in the war.

Sorry redux but you're wrong.The elves bear nothing but ill will for the chantry and gladly side with the qun because it opposes the chantry.The dalish squat and kill humans for walking around forest in human owned lands, this can not be allowed to continue if peace is to prevail.The dalish dream is to build their numbers up enough to they can take land by force which is a major threat to peace, do you not agree? The chantry uplifts them from worshipping their false gods whose existence unlike the maker (Andraste's tears,Ashes,black city,legacy) has never been proven and all they can do is stab the divine right in the heart.

If the elves must die to stop the spread of magic and this war, some will be mourned but the mass will not be missed as anyone who challenges the chantry brings their fates on themselves.

Kirkwall showed we don't need mages anymore.That business with the qunari was centuries ago.

Modifié par Emzamination, 07 mai 2012 - 12:47 .

[Emzamination]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Mages are born only from bloodlines that have mage progenitors.

That's actually patently incorrect. Mages can be born to anyone. It's only that in Tevinter, magical talent hasbeen fostered in family bloodlines. The same magical talent that has helped Thedas win against the Qunari battle after battle. Soldiers and mages win wars, not the Maker.

Leandra to hawke: "When I married your father, I was bringing more magic into our bloodline, not less"

Only miranthos has had to face the continued assault by the qunari but as the rebellion in kirkwall proved, the templars are more than adequate to address the qunari threat, mages are not needed.It is faith in the maker that gives one's spirit the strength to keep raising their sword and pushing forward to fight.

That implies there was already some magic in the bloodline already, right?

Also, did you forget how Orsino managed to hold off an entire warband of Qunari by himself?

And the Maker can't help you when you're dead.

Which had to have coom from a mage root, no?

Pffft he spewed his magic from a distance then ran.

The maker helped andraste in death

[Emzamination]

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Leandra dismisses that when she says by consorting with hawkes father she brought more magic into their bloodline, not less.I wouldn't go so far as to say magic is genetic but you definitely have to have had a mage ancestor.

Leandra is hardly an expert on genetics or magic.  If you would take her word as an excuse to exterminate elves and entire families across Thedas, then that's not much of a debate.

Any solution that involves mass extermination of sentient beings is plain evil.

Anders says the same thing, do you dare call an abomination a liar as well?

Evil is a point of view and from my point of view, promoting demonic timebombs walking freely around children and defenseless peasants is evil but I digress.For my idea to be considered evil, the goal would have to be selfish or self serving which it is not.The goal is to lock out all demons from ever entering the land of thedas again and to do that sacrifice must happen.

Mages can not be trusted with the same rights as free men or need I remind you that the mage martyr was a man who willingly let himself be possesed by a demon just to wage war against the chantry.Yeah lets all trust mages to do the right thing and not consort with other entities.

Modifié par Emzamination, 07 mai 2012 - 12:58 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
It may be logic but your terribly shortsighted and you also lack vision to see the consequences of your ideas.

The irony. It burns.

The thing is there is no perfect solution.
There is only a bad solution (circles, templars) and a even worse solution. Or no solution, just leave the problem unchecked.

I see a lot of players have a really naive view of things, thinking everything will work out, and thiking that a perfect solution is just around the corner. And of course, they interpret everything the Chantry does as self-serving.
Like the chantry isn't composed of people. Tons of pople.

And yes, people can be locked up for the safety of others - we do it all the time. We lock up sick people to stop them spreading a desease. We lock up crazy and violent people to stop them.
Mages are more dangerous than any of those groups.
And we shouldn't lock them up...becuase that makes them unhappy?

Oy...:D:D:D

I dont believe in perfection. But you just say that we should never look for improvement. If everybody thought like you we still be caveman. And yes we lock up crazy and sick people but we dont unnecessarily strip their rights. Tell me Lotion what is point to make people hate mages? what is point that they cannot even mary or have childeren or even run a clinic to help other people? Oh yes to keep the chantry in control. And abominations  are at best an annoyance. If a mage goes crazy you put it down a disease or a mental illness is more difficult to battle then abomination

If only most of the ideas flug around were actualy improvements or feasable.

Yes, we do lock up crazy nad sick people. Andtheir rights? They only have the right we allow.
Not to mention that all the fancy talk about human rights is somewhat silly when we're talkign about ancient cultuires. No Geneva convention in THEDAS.

So what rights are mages denies? The right to live and go wherever they want. Big deal.
The marriage is sorta of a grey area, as the policy depends on the Circle..the mages CAN marry.
Can't keep their children? Again antoher sensible rule. Look at what Happened with Connor.

Abominations an annoyance? Look, for gamepaly purposes abominations area weak enemeis easy to take down. Fluff-wise, abominations destroy entire villages. Or worse.


The problem with mages is that even the best and kindest can be possesed, and can hurt you even if they don't want to.
The problem with mages is they can tear opening in the veil, brining more demons in. Raising corpses and cutting swaths of destruction.
The rpoblem with mages is that thry can mind-control you. This automaticly makes trust impossible.

Calling abominations and mages a "small problem"  is like calling an A-bomb a firecracker.

[Cigne]

Nyoka wrote...

Same as people who have automatic rifles in their homes. Licensing, permits, etc. Reincident criminals with violent crimes would be prosecuted and judged like any other criminal. You murdered someone, I don't care you used a shotgun or a fireball.

Saying that mind control makes you automatically unreliable is myopic. It's looking at the problem from a place where mind control doesn't exist. The mere existence of people with mind controlling capabilities necessarily changes things. People would be aware of it. In Mass Effect, indoctrination exists, and that inevitably leads to TIM and Saren studying it. Likewise a society with free mind controlling mages would no doubt study how it works and develop appropiate countermeasures and contingency plans that would become standard procedure for law enforcers.

Your example of TIM and Saren don't really help your case, and yes, "mind controlling capabilities" DOES change things.

In an alternate world where mages evolved, different concepts of personal rights can be considered appropriate; whose to say that mages should NOT rule (can you really lie to a bloodmage, for instance?). Or be restrained by normals don't want to be servants to, you know, THEM.

Oh, and someone stated earlier that the Chantry treatment of mages creates the idea of mage dominance or captivity being inevitable. I think that's wrong, it's Thedas history; the Imperium predates the Chantry.

[Ivucci]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Not to mention that all the fancy talk about human rights is somewhat silly when we're talkign about ancient cultuires. No Geneva convention in THEDAS.

You can't decide by yourself when is the appropriate time for a society to start accomodating basic human rights. Society reaches this point on its own, it's part of its natural evolution. Ideas, thoughts and doubts build up until suddenly it's time for a change. Once people start questioning the system on a wide scale (which clearly does happen), and are ready to fight for it, there is no turning back.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So what rights are mages denies? The right to live and go wherever they want. Big deal.

Pretty much, yes. This is a big deal.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Can't keep their children? Again antoher sensible rule.

Err... no. This is the worst of their tyrannic rules.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kill em all.

And let the Maker sort 'em out.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Ivucci wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Not to mention that all the fancy talk about human rights is somewhat silly when we're talkign about ancient cultuires. No Geneva convention in THEDAS.

You can't decide by yourself when is the appropriate time for a society to start accomodating basic human rights. Society reaches this point on its own, it's part of its natural evolution. Ideas, thoughts and doubts build up until suddenly it's time for a change. Once people start questioning the system on a wide scale (which clearly does happen), and are ready to fight for it, there is no turning back.

Without Secular education? With monarchs still heavily inluenced by the pope? That time and society doesn't exist in middle ages. Some people point out general opinion need to change. I agree with that. But even with secular education and secular government, we  still lock up mentally unstable people. How long have we been studying to cure mental illness? 

There're only 2 options for middle ages Thedas cititizen to work with. 

1. )  Submit to the existing Circle system and obey the order. Study and do research as much as you can and proof  yourself  worthy of Harrowind. You may gain your freedom with the blessing of First Enchanter Irving..

or

2 ) Be tranqualized or killed as maleficar.


Remember, middle ages people don't understand bacteria yet. They don't understand Theory of Gravity ( which is why Riordan died. ) They don't understand the Law of physics yet. They don't even know what is Thomas Jefferson declaration of independance, "All men are created equal" and  Jean-Jacques 
 famous quote, "Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains. One man thinks himself the master of others, but remains more of a slave than they are." 

Your applying modern day's philosophy to Thedas when it's suppose to reflect middle-ages fantasy just doesn't cut it.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 07 mai 2012 - 03:16 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

DKJaigen wrote...


I dont believe in perfection. But you just say that we should never look for improvement. If everybody thought like you we still be caveman. And yes we lock up crazy and sick people but we dont unnecessarily strip their rights. Tell me Lotion what is point to make people hate mages? what is point that they cannot even mary or have childeren or even run a clinic to help other people? Oh yes to keep the chantry in control. And abominations  are at best an annoyance. If a mage goes crazy you put it down a disease or a mental illness is more difficult to battle then abomination

For the reason Jedi should not marry and have children ... *Anakin Pic*

Modifié par Imperial Sentinel Arian, 07 mai 2012 - 03:41 .

[Emzamination]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kill em all.

And let the Maker sort 'em out.

Amen

[Ivucci]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Your applying modern day's philosophy to Thedas when it's suppose to reflect middle-ages fantasy just doesn't cut it.

I'm not applying any philosophy, the only "modern philosophy" part of my post is the "basic human rights" term which I admit sounds like something from a modern sociology textbook, but taking a child away from a mother is evil and tyrannic whether or not we have a sociological term for it.


It's you who is applying a real world equivalent by calling for comparison to middle ages.


I'm merely applying principles of evolution of a society. I'm saying this is how changes happen in societies: ideas and opinions find their way out to slowly gain a substantial weight of their own. A weight that, at some point, can turn the wheel.


Also, I'm describing what I see and hear in the game. And you can't deny that something's happening: mages' uprisings, mages' revolts, mages going desperate and nuts, Anders openly calling the situation "oppression", Alistair admitting that Chantry is full of cr*p, the whole lyrium addiction business, it all goes to the dogs. The system cannot survive like this.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

There're only 2 options for middle ages Thedas cititizen to work with.

1. )  Submit to the existing Circle system and obey the order. Study and do research as much as you can and proof  yourself  worthy of Harrowind. You may gain your freedom with the blessing of First Enchanter Irving..

or

2 ) Be tranqualized or killed as maleficar.

Awesome choices, wouldn't know what to go for.

Firstly, someone earlier pointed out that the "study" part is actually very limited and useless because the Chantry doesn't allow research into demons. This is news to me, I didn't know it and if it's true, it clearly shows that the Chantry plays damn unfair.  


Secondly, this is a status quo maintained by the Chantry with the sole purpose to keep its power. Who says it can't be changed/transformed/improved? The Chantry? But sure they do!

[Cigne]

Ivucci wrote...



I'm not applying any philosophy, the only "modern philosophy" part of my post is the "basic human rights" term which I admit sounds like something from a modern sociology textbook, but taking a child away from a mother is evil and tyrannic whether or not we have a sociological term for it.


It's you who is applying a real world equivalent by calling for comparison to middle ages.


I'm merely applying principles of evolution of a society. I'm saying this is how changes happen in societies: ideas and opinions find their way out to slowly gain a substantial weight of their own. A weight that, at some point, can turn the wheel.


................


Secondly, this is a status quo maintained by the Chantry with the sole purpose to keep its power. Who says it can't be changed/transformed/improved? The Chantry? But sure they do!

But you're assuming that all societies will eventually end up with our world's version of "basic human rights" when every real world example is based on everyone being equal. We have never had to evolve rules for a group that is truly fundamentaly different--and really, the ability to wield magic doesn't fall into the same category as skin color or different cultures. 

And the Chantry is just an organization, it's suffers in these discussions by it's religious nature, which draws comparisions to western religions. It's "sole purpose" isn't simply to keep it's power. Any organization 'evolves' within a society to fulfill a need; whether over time it continues to answer that need is a different discussion.

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And we shouldn't lock them up...becuase that makes them unhappy?

Mostly we shouldn't lock them up because it is a massive basic rights violation to consider someone guilty by reason of being born different. 

But also, we shoudln't take the word of pepole who benefit by spreading fear and loathing of mages.  And who, once they've locked up the mages "for the good of all" then proceed to abuse them until they crack - endangering everyone.

Would it not be better to allow research into preventing possession, mind control and random fireball damage?  It's a fantasy world after all, are we just going to sit and say, nah, that can't happen, better to lock 'em up or kill 'em?

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Ivucci wrote...
I'm not applying any philosophy, the only "modern philosophy" part of my post is the "basic human rights" term which I admit sounds like something from a modern sociology textbook, but taking a child away from a mother is evil and tyrannic whether or not we have a sociological term for it.

Which is more evil? Dozens people died  due to a child mage or a mother who doesn't care for other people lives? 

Ivucci wrote...

It's you who is applying a real world equivalent by calling for comparison to middle ages.

Because we are playing middle age fantasy RPG. Do you see any Normany there? Do you see any Jet fighter shooting dragon around? 

Ivucci wrote...


I'm merely applying principles of evolution of a society. I'm saying this is how changes happen in societies: ideas and opinions find their way out to slowly gain a substantial weight of their own. A weight that, at some point, can turn the wheel.

And you're applying it at wrong timeline. You're assume cavemen could understand lightning in just a matter of day completely ignore even evolution require thousand years to evolve. Or are you talking about micro evolution? Because only micro evolution is proven to radically change in few minutes?

Ivucci wrote...



Also, I'm describing what I see and hear in the game. And you can't deny that something's happening: mages' uprisings, mages' revolts, mages going desperate and nuts, Anders openly calling the situation "oppression", Alistair admitting that Chantry is full of cr*p, the whole lyrium addiction business, it all goes to the dogs. The system cannot survive like this.

Chaos, war, oppression, mass killing etc happened all the time in middle age. It doesn't change anything. If it wasn't the mages, the city elves would stir chaos anyway. It's until GENEVA convention we started to see the impact of world war. And that certainly didn't happen in middle age.

Ivucci wrote...




Firstly, someone earlier pointed out that the "study" part is actually very limited and useless because the Chantry doesn't allow research into demons. This is news to me, I didn't know it and if it's true, it clearly shows that the Chantry plays damn unfair.

Bah! And you believe that? Irving himself study demonology. Avernus study demonology too. Orsino also study demonology. The only difference is Orsino didn't deserve a place to be First Enchanter. He lacks of will to restrain himself. He is a weak fool I wonder how they choose first enchanter in Kirkwall.
 

Ivucci wrote...

Secondly, this is a status quo maintained by the Chantry with the sole purpose to keep its power. Who says it can't be changed/transformed/improved? The Chantry? But sure they do!

The Circle is sole responsible of First Enchanter. The Chantry can't decide who are free to go. First Enchanter can. First Enchanter can also send out mages to fight the blight. The Chantry cannot. If First Enchanter has the authority to do that, what make you think First Enchanter and senior mages can't help to improve the Circle? As far as I concern, there is no rules that prevent parents and outsiders from visiting the Circle. The Circle itself is an institution.  So what's else are you expecting? Total freedom? Sure. Pass the Harrowind test first and you can go freely like Wynne did. If you fail, your life is forfeited. My Amell passed the test. Wynee passed her the test. Jowan  lack of control and succumb to blood magic's temptation. First Enchanter Irving knews that. Some of weaker mages choose to be tranqualized on their own free will. What makes you thinks other mages outside Ferelden are so special that they should be exempted from Harrowind?

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
It may be logic but your terribly shortsighted and you also lack vision to see the consequences of your ideas.

The irony. It burns.

The thing is there is no perfect solution.
There is only a bad solution (circles, templars) and a even worse solution. Or no solution, just leave the problem unchecked.

I see a lot of players have a really naive view of things, thinking everything will work out, and thiking that a perfect solution is just around the corner. And of course, they interpret everything the Chantry does as self-serving.
Like the chantry isn't composed of people. Tons of pople.

And yes, people can be locked up for the safety of others - we do it all the time. We lock up sick people to stop them spreading a desease. We lock up crazy and violent people to stop them.
Mages are more dangerous than any of those groups.
And we shouldn't lock them up...becuase that makes them unhappy?

Oy...:D:D:D

I dont believe in perfection. But you just say that we should never look for improvement. If everybody thought like you we still be caveman. And yes we lock up crazy and sick people but we dont unnecessarily strip their rights. Tell me Lotion what is point to make people hate mages? what is point that they cannot even mary or have childeren or even run a clinic to help other people? Oh yes to keep the chantry in control. And abominations  are at best an annoyance. If a mage goes crazy you put it down a disease or a mental illness is more difficult to battle then abomination

If only most of the ideas flug around were actualy improvements or feasable.

Yes, we do lock up crazy nad sick people. Andtheir rights? They only have the right we allow.
Not to mention that all the fancy talk about human rights is somewhat silly when we're talkign about ancient cultuires. No Geneva convention in THEDAS.

So what rights are mages denies? The right to live and go wherever they want. Big deal.
The marriage is sorta of a grey area, as the policy depends on the Circle..the mages CAN marry.
Can't keep their children? Again antoher sensible rule. Look at what Happened with Connor.

Abominations an annoyance? Look, for gamepaly purposes abominations area weak enemeis easy to take down. Fluff-wise, abominations destroy entire villages. Or worse.


The problem with mages is that even the best and kindest can be possesed, and can hurt you even if they don't want to.
The problem with mages is they can tear opening in the veil, brining more demons in. Raising corpses and cutting swaths of destruction.
The rpoblem with mages is that thry can mind-control you. This automaticly makes trust impossible.

Calling abominations and mages a "small problem"  is like calling an A-bomb a firecracker.

Mate it doesnt matter. You have an opinion i have mine. But if you say to me that a drug addicted police force that can rape and abuse people because of divine right is a good way to manage a population i eat my underwear. Perhaps the circles are necessary but the templars as the police force are not.

[Silfren]

Reznore57 wrote...

Sure there's no perfect solution ,but remember why the Chantry exist in the first place?
Not because of abominations ,but because mages abuse and misuse their powers.
The same can be said about the chantry ,thought , it seems like the lesser of two evils .
The irony is Andraste might have been a mage , she fought to freed everyone and did not condemn mages but the tirany of magic.

And mages are dangerous , there 's no denying that , but they can be really helpful.Remember they do have healers.

Locking powerful people , and drive them to despair , is hardly a good solution ,what happened in Kirkwall is logic.

The thing is templars should exist but have mages among them.And the circle should be a school , where mages are checked and trained .They should be able to live among society in part.

I'm not saying it's the perfect solution or it would work out in a world like Thedas , but the chantry needs to change a lot.

Chantry people are not all white and tend to use their faith in non constructive ways , remember the elves?
Freed by Andraste , and attacked and disgrace by the chantry later because they wanted to go back to their old ways?

The Chantry exists because followers of Andraste created a religion around her teachings. Granted, Andraste came into her power and authority as a result of the Tevinter Imperium, and of course she had her teaching--or what was attributed as being her teaching--that magic is meant to serve and not to rule--but the Chantry as a whole exists because people took up Andraste's teachings about a God and formed an organized religion around it.  The Circle system came about some time after the Chantry had already been established.

[Ivucci]

[quote]Cigne wrote...
[quote]Ivucci wrote...
I'm not applying any philosophy, the only "modern philosophy" part of my post is the "basic human rights" term which I admit sounds like something from a modern sociology textbook, but taking a child away from
a mother is evil and tyrannic whether or not we have a sociological term for it.
....

I'm merely applying principles of evolution of a society. I'm saying this is how changes happen in societies: ideas and opinions find their way out to slowly gain a substantial weight of their own. A weight that, at some point, can turn the wheel.
[/quote]

But you're assuming that all societies will eventually end up with our world's version of "basic human rights" when every real world example is based on everyone being equal. We have never had to evolve rules for a group that is truly fundamentaly different--and really, the ability to wield magic doesn't fall into the same category as skin color or different cultures.
[/quote]

Absolutely not, at least not here and now!

I said I was describing what I saw in the game: people plus one spirit in the game clearly start recognizing that something is awfully wrong with the system. Once they are aware of it, they took a certain mental step forward and you can't push them back. Well, you could try using force, which other posters are suggesting, but I very seriously doubt that will make things better.

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Which is more evil? Dozens people died  due to a child mage or a mother who doesn't care for other people lives?
[/quote]

I'm not gonna play a what's-more-evil game. More importantly, I completely and utterly fail to see the point of taking children away from their mothers and how does it help anything.

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Ivucci wrote...
It's you who is applying a real world equivalent by calling for comparison to middle ages.[/quote]
Because we are playing middle age fantasy RPG. Do you see any Normany there? Do you see any Jet fighter shooting dragon around?
[/quote]

Now that you mention it... no, I haven't seen a jet fighter shooting dragons.

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Ivucci wrote...
I'm merely applying principles of evolution of a society. I'm saying this is how changes happen in societies: ideas and opinions find their way out to slowly gain a substantial weight of their own. A weight that, at some point, can turn the wheel.[/quote]

And you're applying it at wrong timeline. You're assume cavemen could understand lightning in just a matter of day completely ignore even evolution require thousand years to evolve. Or are you talking about micro evolution? Because only micro evolution is proven to radically change in few minutes?
[/quote]

I don't understand your example with the cavemen. No, I don't assume cavemen could understand lightning in a matter of days and I don't know how is it relevant to my argument.

Therefore I'll repeat what I said above:

"People plus one spirit in the game clearly start recognizing that something is awfully wrong with the system. Once they are aware of it, they took a certain mental step forward and you can't push them back.
Well, you could try using force, which other posters are suggesting, but I very seriously doubt that will make things better."

Even though Kirkwall is an extreme example, the level of complete desperation that we saw there, the extreme measures taken by both sides = the system is not functional.

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Ivucci wrote...
Also, I'm describing what I see and hear in the game. And you can't deny that something's happening: mages' uprisings, mages' revolts, mages going desperate and nuts, Anders openly calling the situation
"oppression", Alistair admitting that Chantry is full of cr*p, the whole lyrium addiction business, it all goes to the dogs. The system cannot survive like this.[/quote]

Chaos, war, oppression, mass killing etc happened all the time in middle age. It doesn't change anything. If it wasn't the mages, the city elves would stir chaos anyway. It's until GENEVA convention we started to see
the impact of world war. And that certainly didn't happen in middle age.
[/quote]

Are you suggesting people have no right to fight against oppression, torture and inhuman practices just because "they happen all the time anyway"? I cannot accept that.

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Ivucci wrote...
Firstly, someone earlier pointed out that the "study" part is actually  very limited and useless because the Chantry doesn't allow research into demons. This is news to me, I didn't know it and if it's true, it clearly shows that the Chantry plays damn unfair.[/quote]

Bah! And you believe that? Irving himself study demonology. Avernus study demonology too. Orsino also study demonology. The only difference is Orsino didn't deserve a place to be First Enchanter. He lacks of will
to restrain himself. He is a weak fool I wonder how they choose first enchanter in Kirkwall.
[/quote]

I don't know if I believe that, that's why I said "if it's true", and I guess I need to find a kodex entry or a dialogue to check that.

Also, the fact that First Enchanters are allowed to study is irrelevant, it's the average-mage-Joe who needs to have all resources available to be able to study and understand what it is that he is constantly being accused of, even though he hasn't actually even committed it yet.

Avernus is a poor example, him being a Grey Warden.

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
[quote]Ivucci wrote...
Secondly, this is a status quo maintained by the Chantry with the sole purpose to keep its power. Who says it can't be changed/transformed/improved? The Chantry? But sure they do!
[/quote]

The Circle is sole responsible of First Enchanter. The Chantry can't decide who are free to go. First Enchanter can.
[/quote]

First Enchanters are still just dogs on a leash.

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
So what's else are you expecting? Total freedom? Sure. Pass the Harrowind test first and you can go freely like Wynne did. If you fail, your life is forfeited. My Amell passed the test. Wynee passed her the test. Jowan  lack of control and succumb to blood magic's temptation. First Enchanter Irving knews that. Some of weaker mages choose to be tranqualized on their own free will.[/quote]

Err... not sure what is expected of me now, shall I applaud your Amell for being amazing?

No, I don't want complete freedom for mages and I have no idea why are you assuming that I do.

I'm saying there's a lot of room for a change, I'm saying the system is rotten and should be transformed, I'm saying a system that forces "weak" people (in other words, human beings who have doubts and fears) to
voluntarily agree to being emotionally crippled is an embodiment of somethig utterly evil, horrible and disgusting.

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
What makes you thinks other mages outside Ferelden are so special that they should be exempted from Harrowind?[/quote]

Again, I don't know why are you automatically assigning me opinions. I happen to think, though, that the practice of Harrowing should be abandoned or at least transformed.

Edit: format fail.

Modifié par Ivucci, 07 mai 2012 - 09:59 .

[GavrielKay]

Emzamination wrote...

Anders says the same thing, do you dare call an abomination a liar as well?

Evil is a point of view and from my point of view, promoting demonic timebombs walking freely around children and defenseless peasants is evil but I digress.For my idea to be considered evil, the goal would have to be selfish or self serving which it is not.The goal is to lock out all demons from ever entering the land of thedas again and to do that sacrifice must happen.

Mages can not be trusted with the same rights as free men or need I remind you that the mage martyr was a man who willingly let himself be possesed by a demon just to wage war against the chantry.Yeah lets all trust mages to do the right thing and not consort with other entities.

I don't think anyone knows very much about the origins of magic and how it appears in a blood line.  Certainly the developers haven't made any declarations that I've seen.  They've made it fairly clear that statements from the NPCs are their beliefs and not necessarily "true" by developer decree.

Sometimes evil is a point of view, other times it's pretty clear cut.  Mass murdering races and families because you're afraid is evil.

I'm not promoting demons running amok among children, but I hardly see how murdering entire families and races is an improvement.  That you can seriously suggest every family that has ever produced a mage should be massacred is pretty clearly a total bail out on rational thought and ingenuity.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...
This is not altogether true.  We know that the mage Adralla created a counter for every known form of blood magic--and it could be argued that her counters are usable by mages as well as non-mages, given that a non-mage Warden can use the Litany against Uldred, for starters, and as has already been mentioned, runes exist that can be carved into objects to negate any and all magic.  For that matter, we have a bit of lore that hints that Seekers are immune to mind-control by blood mages.  It's a weak hint, but it is there nonetheless.  So clearly Thedas DOES have the techonology to counter magic, whether fueled by blood or otherwise.

Now there's some excellent points...  thanks!

So if we use some "devil's advocate" logic here...  the Chantry as it exists in Thedas during the game time frame derives quite a lot of its power from the notion that it protects the population from mages.  This is a huge conflict of interest that makes it likely that the Chantry would actively prevent research and/or spreading of knowledge about alternatives.

If the Chantry were actually interested in protecting everyone, you'd expect that a copy of the Litany would be on every Chanter's board.  You'd also expect that any Templar caught tormenting a mage would be executed on the spot for endangering the public.  After all, we've seen plenty of evidence that mages with nothing to lose will generally try to take a few bystanders down with them.

I think it is human nature to use an easy way out and stop looking for a better but harder solution.  Had the easy way out never been an option, I'm quite sure things like dweomer runes and the Litany of Adralla would be on every doorstep.  There's no reason to think that ingenuity couldn't have solved the problem with something other than murdering children when they emerge as mages.

Excellent points, all.  As I said above, we know that the Chantry didn't come into existence purely based on its anti-mage stance, but I think it is also true that the Chantry keeps itself relevant by virtue of its position on mages.  It could exist as a purely religious body whose entire purpose revolves around the spiritual well-being of its adherents, but the reality is that the Chantry's political and military power hinges on its insistence that its existence is required to defend all the known world against the mage threat.

[Silfren]

Emzamination wrote...

Silfren wrote...

If you have to have had a mage ancestor, then magic is genetic. 

It's true enough that since Leandra's family was known for producing mages fairly commonly, that when she married another mage she only made that tendency stronger.  But I don't think it necessarily means that families which never produced a mage before never will. 

Especially not when we do know that at one time, at least per elven legend, ALL elves had magic, and the Deep Roads expedition strongly hints that at one time, dwarves were mages as well.  

Remember that in the Hanged Man, a guy suggests there are more mages being born today than there used to be.  This implies an environmental factor.  He even points toward "lyrium in the water," and it is already established by the game that lyrium is indeed directly connected with magic.  It's how templars gain their abilities (notwithstanding Alistair's contradictory statement that doesn't make sense anyway), and its theorized that centuries of over-exposure to lyrium is what gives the dwarves their measure of immunity to magic.  

Everyone born of the mage's line would have to have magic for it to be called genetic.It works in a way more akin to the force.

So every elf with magic had a mage ancestor? My point is proven

Alistair didn't lie, both the warden and alistair can use templar powers without the use of lyrium.lyrium justt amplifys the power.

I'm not convinced that magic is entirely genetic, but even I know that the underlined portion of your statement is utterly false.  We have a TON of real world examples of genetic traits, both malign and benign, that don't register in every child of every generation.  Making easily disproved statements isn't going to help your argument.

Moving on, there are hints scattered in the lore that suggest that at one point, EVERYBODY had magic, and that something happened such that now magic is a rare trait that only shows up in certain families.  We also have hints that something is causing magic to make a comeback, in that more and more people are being born as mages now than have been seen in generations past.  Again, there's a suggestion in DA2 that lyrium in the water is causing more mages to be born, which indicates an environmental factor is at play, not just genetics, and quite frankly that would make sense given the interrelationship between magic, lyrium, and the Fade.  In any event, we cannot conclusively state that a family line never known to have produced a mage before won't suddenly START producing them.


Re: Alistair, I don't have the links available, maybe The Evil Writer Redux could help on that score, but there is some dispute over whether lyrium is required for templar abilities.  Alistair flat out states that it is not required, but apparently David Gaider has somewhere indicated that that is incorrect, that templars do indeed derive their abilities from lyrium.  Frankly, that makes far better sense, because if templars don't get their abilities from lyrium, then where the hell do those abilities come from?  Until Gaider has something else to say on this subject, logic compels me to go with the idea that Alistair's statement is a bit of lore that got changed in mid-stream and was overlooked by whatever group whose job it is to try and make the lore internally consistent.

[ObserverStatus]

Doesn't matter, they should be rounded up and forcibly tranquilized either way, as is the will of the maker.

[Emzamination]

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Anders says the same thing, do you dare call an abomination a liar as well?

Evil is a point of view and from my point of view, promoting demonic timebombs walking freely around children and defenseless peasants is evil but I digress.For my idea to be considered evil, the goal would have to be selfish or self serving which it is not.The goal is to lock out all demons from ever entering the land of thedas again and to do that sacrifice must happen.

Mages can not be trusted with the same rights as free men or need I remind you that the mage martyr was a man who willingly let himself be possesed by a demon just to wage war against the chantry.Yeah lets all trust mages to do the right thing and not consort with other entities.

I don't think anyone knows very much about the origins of magic and how it appears in a blood line.  Certainly the developers haven't made any declarations that I've seen.  They've made it fairly clear that statements from the NPCs are their beliefs and not necessarily "true" by developer decree.

Sometimes evil is a point of view, other times it's pretty clear cut.  Mass murdering races and families because you're afraid is evil.

I'm not promoting demons running amok among children, but I hardly see how murdering entire families and races is an improvement.  That you can seriously suggest every family that has ever produced a mage should be massacred is pretty clearly a total bail out on rational thought and ingenuity.

Option B is to lock them all away so they can't produce anymore mages but then again thats what the circles were for and look how thats turning out.

[Silfren]

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination, if you were to kill every family that had a Mage in any part of their lifetime you'd have to kill every Elf in existence, seeing as we're told that in the old days of Arlathan every Elf was a mage.

So yea... let's exterminate an entire race out of petty fears and hatred and whatnot. That always goes over well.

Remind anyone of a certain person?

Elves don't believe in the maker and flee to the qun to oppose the chantry, the shemlen will not be missing them. Chop Chop

Yup that settles it. You're either a dedicated troll, a fanatical Templar supporter, or both.

Emzamination wrote...


I'm not saying being able to shoot lightning and bring down meteors isn't useful but the risk is too high.

I'm sure that'll be a great comfort to all of Thedas when the Qunari invade again and conquer Thedas again. Without Mages, Thedas is doomed. Mages are what helped to repel the Qunari far enough back that there was a standstill in the war.

Sorry redux but you're wrong.The elves bear nothing but ill will for the chantry and gladly side with the qun because it opposes the chantry.The dalish squat and kill humans for walking around forest in human owned lands, this can not be allowed to continue if peace is to prevail.The dalish dream is to build their numbers up enough to they can take land by force which is a major threat to peace, do you not agree? The chantry uplifts them from worshipping their false gods whose existence unlike the maker (Andraste's tears,Ashes,black city,legacy) has never been proven and all they can do is stab the divine right in the heart.

If the elves must die to stop the spread of magic and this war, some will be mourned but the mass will not be missed as anyone who challenges the chantry brings their fates on themselves.

Kirkwall showed we don't need mages anymore.That business with the qunari was centuries ago.

Alienage elves might embrace the Qun, but the Dalish would never ally with the Qunari unless they had very compelling life-or-death reason to do so, and I don't think they would accept the Qun over their own traditions.  The Qunari is just another form of the Chantry, after all, when it comes to stamping out other people's cultures and faiths.

[TEWR]

Elves only embrace the Qun because they're treated like **** in Chantry Thedas. The Qun actually gives them an equal shot at a decent life.

Funny how if you treat a person like crap they'll do some stuff you may not like. Back a dog into a corner, don't be surprised if he bites your hand.