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[Silfren]

Emzamination wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Leandra dismisses that when she says by consorting with hawkes father she brought more magic into their bloodline, not less.I wouldn't go so far as to say magic is genetic but you definitely have to have had a mage ancestor.

Leandra is hardly an expert on genetics or magic.  If you would take her word as an excuse to exterminate elves and entire families across Thedas, then that's not much of a debate.

Any solution that involves mass extermination of sentient beings is plain evil.

Anders says the same thing, do you dare call an abomination a liar as well?

Evil is a point of view and from my point of view, promoting demonic timebombs walking freely around children and defenseless peasants is evil but I digress.For my idea to be considered evil, the goal would have to be selfish or self serving which it is not.The goal is to lock out all demons from ever entering the land of thedas again and to do that sacrifice must happen.

Mages can not be trusted with the same rights as free men or need I remind you that the mage martyr was a man who willingly let himself be possesed by a demon just to wage war against the chantry.Yeah lets all trust mages to do the right thing and not consort with other entities.

Anders did not let himself be posessed by a demon.  Justice was a benign spirit that Anders wanted to help, because they were close friends and he genuinely thought he was helping Justice.  Not until AFTER the possession did he morph into Vengeance, and the lore we have indicates that neither Anders nor Justice had a clue that that would happen.  The intent of both was to fight for mages' rights but we have nothing to indicate that waging full-out war was the intention of either one.  Especially not when Awakening Anders himself is adamantly against mages breaking free from the Chantry because he agreed with Wynne that that would only provoke the Chantry into wholescale genocide.

[Silfren]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes, we do lock up crazy nad sick people. Andtheir rights? They only have the right we allow.
Not to mention that all the fancy talk about human rights is somewhat silly when we're talkign about ancient cultuires. No Geneva convention in THEDAS.

Whether rights are given, allowed, bestowed, or assumed to be self-evident is a sticky argument that to a great extent involves semantics, because ultimately even when rights are assumed to be self-evident, they still require legal backing, and in order to be legally backed those rights have to be codified into the law to begin with. 

That said, speaking as someone who actually does work in the mental health industry, in a western nation, the mentally ill DO have rights, those rights ARE legally recognized, and in most cases ARE legally upheld.  It is NOT legal to simply declare someone dangerously insane and throw them behind bars.  Not only do you have to legally prove that someone is unstable, you also have to prove whether they are so unstable as to be dangerous around other people, and to what extent.  There are other options available besides merely locking them away and throwing away the key, and those options are legally required to be explored.

You appear to be suggesting that we can simply point to someone, declare them dangerous, and on that basis have them thrown in a prison cell for life, and that ain't so.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2012 - 08:45 .

[Silfren]

I swear I'm not doing it on purpose, TEWR.

[Emzamination]

Silfren wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Silfren wrote...

If you have to have had a mage ancestor, then magic is genetic. 

It's true enough that since Leandra's family was known for producing mages fairly commonly, that when she married another mage she only made that tendency stronger.  But I don't think it necessarily means that families which never produced a mage before never will. 

Especially not when we do know that at one time, at least per elven legend, ALL elves had magic, and the Deep Roads expedition strongly hints that at one time, dwarves were mages as well.  

Remember that in the Hanged Man, a guy suggests there are more mages being born today than there used to be.  This implies an environmental factor.  He even points toward "lyrium in the water," and it is already established by the game that lyrium is indeed directly connected with magic.  It's how templars gain their abilities (notwithstanding Alistair's contradictory statement that doesn't make sense anyway), and its theorized that centuries of over-exposure to lyrium is what gives the dwarves their measure of immunity to magic.  

Everyone born of the mage's line would have to have magic for it to be called genetic.It works in a way more akin to the force.

So every elf with magic had a mage ancestor? My point is proven

Alistair didn't lie, both the warden and alistair can use templar powers without the use of lyrium.lyrium justt amplifys the power.

I'm not convinced that magic is entirely genetic, but even I know that the underlined portion of your statement is utterly false.  We have a TON of real world examples of genetic traits, both malign and benign, that don't register in every child of every generation.  Making easily disproved statements isn't going to help your argument.

Moving on, there are hints scattered in the lore that suggest that at one point, EVERYBODY had magic, and that something happened such that now magic is a rare trait that only shows up in certain families.  We also have hints that something is causing magic to make a comeback, in that more and more people are being born as mages now than have been seen in generations past.  Again, there's a suggestion in DA2 that lyrium in the water is causing more mages to be born, which indicates an environmental factor is at play, not just genetics, and quite frankly that would make sense given the interrelationship between magic, lyrium, and the Fade.  In any event, we cannot conclusively state that a family line never known to have produced a mage before won't suddenly START producing them.


Re: Alistair, I don't have the links available, maybe The Evil Writer Redux could help on that score, but there is some dispute over whether lyrium is required for templar abilities.  Alistair flat out states that it is not required, but apparently David Gaider has somewhere indicated that that is incorrect, that templars do indeed derive their abilities from lyrium.  Frankly, that makes far better sense, because if templars don't get their abilities from lyrium, then where the hell do those abilities come from?  Until Gaider has something else to say on this subject, logic compels me to go with the idea that Alistair's statement is a bit of lore that got changed in mid-stream and was overlooked by whatever group whose job it is to try and make the lore internally consistent.

There have been no case studies to prove those were anything more than random occurrences. 

There is nothing to suggest your theorie on everyone having magic applies to anyone outside the elves.Didn't that old man in the hanged man or a dock worker make that comment about lyrium in the water? Anyways if lyrium was in the water, people would be bleeding from the eyes and dropping like flys as lyrium has to be specially prepared before it can be ingested.

Alistair is a templar who has never tasted lyrium using templar abilities.Until we are presented with a concrete and definite explanation, logic dictates we roll with the former.lore can not simply change on veiled hints but definite responses.

[Emzamination]

Silfren wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Leandra dismisses that when she says by consorting with hawkes father she brought more magic into their bloodline, not less.I wouldn't go so far as to say magic is genetic but you definitely have to have had a mage ancestor.

Leandra is hardly an expert on genetics or magic.  If you would take her word as an excuse to exterminate elves and entire families across Thedas, then that's not much of a debate.

Any solution that involves mass extermination of sentient beings is plain evil.

Anders says the same thing, do you dare call an abomination a liar as well?

Evil is a point of view and from my point of view, promoting demonic timebombs walking freely around children and defenseless peasants is evil but I digress.For my idea to be considered evil, the goal would have to be selfish or self serving which it is not.The goal is to lock out all demons from ever entering the land of thedas again and to do that sacrifice must happen.

Mages can not be trusted with the same rights as free men or need I remind you that the mage martyr was a man who willingly let himself be possesed by a demon just to wage war against the chantry.Yeah lets all trust mages to do the right thing and not consort with other entities.

Anders did not let himself be posessed by a demon.  Justice was a benign spirit that Anders wanted to help, because they were close friends and he genuinely thought he was helping Justice.  Not until AFTER the possession did he morph into Vengeance, and the lore we have indicates that neither Anders nor Justice had a clue that that would happen.  The intent of both was to fight for mages' rights but we have nothing to indicate that waging full-out war was the intention of either one.  Especially not when Awakening Anders himself is adamantly against mages breaking free from the Chantry because he agreed with Wynne that that would only provoke the Chantry into wholescale genocide.

Spirits belong in the fade and have no place in the mortal world.No matter whether is was "good" or evil, he became an abomination which goes against chantry law and everything the mages claimed they were strong enough to resist to get his point across which also registers him under the category of hypocrite.Anders tells you after he detonates that nuke that he let himself become that creature just to achieve such a goal even going so far as to call it "justice".Anders was never against mages being free of the chantry, what he said was they can't just decide to leave when they feel like it.

[GavrielKay]

Emzamination wrote...
Option B is to lock them all away so they can't produce anymore mages but then again thats what the circles were for and look how thats turning out.

So you've got a fantasy world where anything the devs say is true becomes game reality and you think there's only 2 options?

We know there is something called the Litany of Adralla which protects against mind control.  We know there are dweomer runes which protect against magic.  We know there is a rite of Tranquility which can completely sever a mage's link to the Fade.  There are Templars who learn to resist and counter magic and spells which drain or counter magic... 

Given all this, might not more research turn up more and better protections against magic?  Why not discuss how the rite of Tranquility might be modified to render a mage normal rather than lobotomized.  Or a dweomer rune over every doorstep to protect villages.  Or the Litany of Adralla read at every council meeting to protect against mages ruling through mind control.

There are a zillion possible options in a fantasy world.  Is it so crazy to brain storm over possibilities rather than declare the death penalty or lifetime imprisonment against all mages?

[Silfren]

Emzamination wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Silfren wrote...

If you have to have had a mage ancestor, then magic is genetic. 

It's true enough that since Leandra's family was known for producing mages fairly commonly, that when she married another mage she only made that tendency stronger.  But I don't think it necessarily means that families which never produced a mage before never will. 

Especially not when we do know that at one time, at least per elven legend, ALL elves had magic, and the Deep Roads expedition strongly hints that at one time, dwarves were mages as well.  

Remember that in the Hanged Man, a guy suggests there are more mages being born today than there used to be.  This implies an environmental factor.  He even points toward "lyrium in the water," and it is already established by the game that lyrium is indeed directly connected with magic.  It's how templars gain their abilities (notwithstanding Alistair's contradictory statement that doesn't make sense anyway), and its theorized that centuries of over-exposure to lyrium is what gives the dwarves their measure of immunity to magic.  

Everyone born of the mage's line would have to have magic for it to be called genetic.It works in a way more akin to the force.

So every elf with magic had a mage ancestor? My point is proven

Alistair didn't lie, both the warden and alistair can use templar powers without the use of lyrium.lyrium justt amplifys the power.

I'm not convinced that magic is entirely genetic, but even I know that the underlined portion of your statement is utterly false.  We have a TON of real world examples of genetic traits, both malign and benign, that don't register in every child of every generation.  Making easily disproved statements isn't going to help your argument.

Moving on, there are hints scattered in the lore that suggest that at one point, EVERYBODY had magic, and that something happened such that now magic is a rare trait that only shows up in certain families.  We also have hints that something is causing magic to make a comeback, in that more and more people are being born as mages now than have been seen in generations past.  Again, there's a suggestion in DA2 that lyrium in the water is causing more mages to be born, which indicates an environmental factor is at play, not just genetics, and quite frankly that would make sense given the interrelationship between magic, lyrium, and the Fade.  In any event, we cannot conclusively state that a family line never known to have produced a mage before won't suddenly START producing them.


Re: Alistair, I don't have the links available, maybe The Evil Writer Redux could help on that score, but there is some dispute over whether lyrium is required for templar abilities.  Alistair flat out states that it is not required, but apparently David Gaider has somewhere indicated that that is incorrect, that templars do indeed derive their abilities from lyrium.  Frankly, that makes far better sense, because if templars don't get their abilities from lyrium, then where the hell do those abilities come from?  Until Gaider has something else to say on this subject, logic compels me to go with the idea that Alistair's statement is a bit of lore that got changed in mid-stream and was overlooked by whatever group whose job it is to try and make the lore internally consistent.

There have been no case studies to prove those were anything more than random occurrences. 

There is nothing to suggest your theorie on everyone having magic applies to anyone outside the elves.Didn't that old man in the hanged man or a dock worker make that comment about lyrium in the water? Anyways if lyrium was in the water, people would be bleeding from the eyes and dropping like flys as lyrium has to be specially prepared before it can be ingested.

Alistair is a templar who has never tasted lyrium using templar abilities.Until we are presented with a concrete and definite explanation, logic dictates we roll with the former.lore can not simply change on veiled hints but definite responses.

Re: the underlined portion of your post that I quoted, I'm unclear as to what you're referring to. 

As far as everyone having magic, well, not quite.  The Deep Roads expedition in DA2 STRONGLY hints that at one time, dwarves had magic.  Whether it was only one group of dwarves that are now extinct, or that all dwarves at one time had magic, but that was so long ago that no dwarves now have any memory, much less record, of it, is unclear.  But the hint is pretty damned strong that at one point, some or all dwarves had magical ability.  

Then, of course, there are the elves, who hold that at one time all elves had magic. 

Finally, we have Sandal, who does, more than a little strongly, seem to be a dwarf with unexplained magical ability.  This may be because he is a genetic throwback, or because of his non-dwarven heritage.  I haven't seen it for myself, but apparently he is hinted, in Legacy, as being a half-dwarf.  And from Sandal, of course, we have his prophecy that "one day, the magic will come back.  All of it. Everyone will be like they were."  Its ambiguous, sure, but it COULD nevertheless be taken to mean that at some point in the past, all beings had magic.

All that amounts to a good deal more than "nothing" to suggest my theory. 

Going on, lyrium in the water COULD be specially prepared and refined, before it is dumped in.  Perhaps Flemeth is spiking the water supply as part of her master plan, whatever it may be.  Perhaps its a Qunari plot, or a Tevinter one.  Either way, it's far from implausible that lyrium could be in the water and causing people to change in slight ways without causing them to bleed from their eyeballs.  This is another thing for which we have a mountain of real world examples.  People are, and have always, drank tainted water that affects them in various ways but without causing them to keel over dead after one sip.  Either way, I don't mean to take that bit of Hanged Man rumor as gospel truth.  Just something to think about in conjuction with everything else we have. 

Finally, Alistair.  We DO have statements from Gaider stating that lyrium is required for templar abilities.  No, I don't have the link myself, but I have read that statement, and I did mention that you could possibly get more info about it from The ETHEREAL Writer Redux, who brought it to my attention in the first place.  Anyway, logic does NOT dictate that we roll with the former for the reason I already stated:  It doesn't make sense.  Templar abilities are not magic, and they aren't accessible by the general population.  They have to come from somewhere, and the lyrium explanation makes sense in light of what we already know about its connection to magic.

[Silfren]

Emzamination wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Leandra dismisses that when she says by consorting with hawkes father she brought more magic into their bloodline, not less.I wouldn't go so far as to say magic is genetic but you definitely have to have had a mage ancestor.

Leandra is hardly an expert on genetics or magic.  If you would take her word as an excuse to exterminate elves and entire families across Thedas, then that's not much of a debate.

Any solution that involves mass extermination of sentient beings is plain evil.

Anders says the same thing, do you dare call an abomination a liar as well?

Evil is a point of view and from my point of view, promoting demonic timebombs walking freely around children and defenseless peasants is evil but I digress.For my idea to be considered evil, the goal would have to be selfish or self serving which it is not.The goal is to lock out all demons from ever entering the land of thedas again and to do that sacrifice must happen.

Mages can not be trusted with the same rights as free men or need I remind you that the mage martyr was a man who willingly let himself be possesed by a demon just to wage war against the chantry.Yeah lets all trust mages to do the right thing and not consort with other entities.

Anders did not let himself be posessed by a demon.  Justice was a benign spirit that Anders wanted to help, because they were close friends and he genuinely thought he was helping Justice.  Not until AFTER the possession did he morph into Vengeance, and the lore we have indicates that neither Anders nor Justice had a clue that that would happen.  The intent of both was to fight for mages' rights but we have nothing to indicate that waging full-out war was the intention of either one.  Especially not when Awakening Anders himself is adamantly against mages breaking free from the Chantry because he agreed with Wynne that that would only provoke the Chantry into wholescale genocide.

Spirits belong in the fade and have no place in the mortal world.No matter whether is was "good" or evil, he became an abomination which goes against chantry law and everything the mages claimed they were strong enough to resist to get his point across which also registers him under the category of hypocrite.Anders tells you after he detonates that nuke that he let himself become that creature just to achieve such a goal even going so far as to call it "justice".Anders was never against mages being free of the chantry, what he said was they can't just decide to leave when they feel like it.

Maybe spirits don't, but that's beside the point.  Justice WAS trapped in the mortal world, and Anders wanted to help him.  

I don't agree that Anders was an abomination, no more so than Wynne was, or Flemeth.  All three have demons or spirits within them, physically, apparently, and yet they look nothing at all like abominations we fight throughout the game.  Abominations are largely mindless bags are mutilated, formless flesh.  That sound like Wynne or Anders or Flemeth to you?

You're also forgetting that a rivaled Anders is markedly different from the friended Anders you're describing.  A rivaled Anders actively fights against the spirit/demon inside him, he doesn't claim that he joined with Justice to achieve the goal of exploding the Chantry.  For that matter, what Anders says at the end of the game, even friended, contradicts what he says elsewhere, suggesting, to me at least, that he didn't have a clear intention of violence when he set out with Justice in the beginning.  He had a vague idea of justice that only later coalesces into a specific action.  It is entirely possible for him to decide LATER that this is what he set out to do, without that having been his intention from the start.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Option B is to lock them all away so they can't produce anymore mages but then again thats what the circles were for and look how thats turning out.

So you've got a fantasy world where anything the devs say is true becomes game reality and you think there's only 2 options?

We know there is something called the Litany of Adralla which protects against mind control.  We know there are dweomer runes which protect against magic.  We know there is a rite of Tranquility which can completely sever a mage's link to the Fade.  There are Templars who learn to resist and counter magic and spells which drain or counter magic... 

Given all this, might not more research turn up more and better protections against magic?  Why not discuss how the rite of Tranquility might be modified to render a mage normal rather than lobotomized.  Or a dweomer rune over every doorstep to protect villages.  Or the Litany of Adralla read at every council meeting to protect against mages ruling through mind control.

There are a zillion possible options in a fantasy world.  Is it so crazy to brain storm over possibilities rather than declare the death penalty or lifetime imprisonment against all mages?

One thing I don't think gets brought up a lot is that based on the lore we have, if magic is being practiced openly and often in Tevinter, and slaves are routinely murdered to fuel blood magic, then the Veil would have to be all but non-existent, or perhaps it IS non-existent there.  

So it does rather stand to reason that Tevinter mages have a much broaded repertoire of knowledge at hand about magic, the Fade, and how to deal with problems.  The Veil HAS to be extremely thin or completely gone there, otherwise we have to throw basic DA lore about the Veil away.  But if demons and spirits are roaming about freely in Tevinter, clearly they aren't spilling out into the rest of Thedas and we haven't gotten any news that Tevinter has been wiped off the map.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

I swear I'm not doing it on purpose, TEWR.

Doing what?

[Emzamination]

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Option B is to lock them all away so they can't produce anymore mages but then again thats what the circles were for and look how thats turning out.

So you've got a fantasy world where anything the devs say is true becomes game reality and you think there's only 2 options?

We know there is something called the Litany of Adralla which protects against mind control.  We know there are dweomer runes which protect against magic.  We know there is a rite of Tranquility which can completely sever a mage's link to the Fade.  There are Templars who learn to resist and counter magic and spells which drain or counter magic... 

Given all this, might not more research turn up more and better protections against magic?  Why not discuss how the rite of Tranquility might be modified to render a mage normal rather than lobotomized.  Or a dweomer rune over every doorstep to protect villages.  Or the Litany of Adralla read at every council meeting to protect against mages ruling through mind control.

There are a zillion possible options in a fantasy world.  Is it so crazy to brain storm over possibilities rather than declare the death penalty or lifetime imprisonment against all mages?

Incorrect, the devs have to keep the lore consistent or risk... well I'm sure we've all seen the me3 forums.

I've already explained why the litany won't work one or two pages back, it protects the mind from blood magic, not the soul from possesion.Demons can use blood magic but are not blood magic incarnate.A mage dabbling in blood magic pales in comparison to a mindless abomination.The problem with trying to research all those options is it could take years,decades maybe centuries to bare any fruit and thats if it bares any at all.War is happening now and we need a soloution now.I'm all for tranquilizing every mage tho but having thousands of mindless drones waiting on your every command 24/7 is a bit of a headache don't you think? You really think a dweomer rune is going to stop a rampaging abomination from coming in?

Headsman's block offers the quickest and most efficent soloution with the biggest price to be paid being guilt over taking so much life but again its for the greater good of society.The mages are lucky if they're even allowed to work the mines after rallying behind ander's magical nuke.They committed a grievous offence against the chantry using magic to a ridiculously destructive end verifying the chantry's beliefs.Freedom is out of the question and imprisonment will be heaven for them. 

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...
So it does rather stand to reason that Tevinter mages have a much broaded repertoire of knowledge at hand about magic, the Fade, and how to deal with problems.  The Veil HAS to be extremely thin or completely gone there, otherwise we have to throw basic DA lore about the Veil away.  But if demons and spirits are roaming about freely in Tevinter, clearly they aren't spilling out into the rest of Thedas and we haven't gotten any news that Tevinter has been wiped off the map.

Yeah, I think it is clear from gameplay that the dangers of mages are overstated.  From the fact that Tevinter still exists to the fact that Kirkwall, overrun with crazed mages as it was, also still exists.  Circles shoudn't be able to survive if mages really are so thoroughly corruptible either - with so many mages in one place, certainly they would manage to wipe themselves out if the percentage of abominations was anywhere near high enough to justify mass imprisonment (or extinction as some posters would have).

It simply cannot be true that free mages will lead to the enslavement of all and the downfall of civilization as Thedas knows it - or the mages that were currently free should be well on their way to achieving such ends.

There are several cultures that have always had at least some free mages.  And of course apostates and maleficar in Andrastian countries.  There are just too many mages freely wandering about the place for them to truly be ticking time bombs waiting to destroy the world when they don't get their favorite cookie.

[Silfren]

Emzamination wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Option B is to lock them all away so they can't produce anymore mages but then again thats what the circles were for and look how thats turning out.

So you've got a fantasy world where anything the devs say is true becomes game reality and you think there's only 2 options?

We know there is something called the Litany of Adralla which protects against mind control.  We know there are dweomer runes which protect against magic.  We know there is a rite of Tranquility which can completely sever a mage's link to the Fade.  There are Templars who learn to resist and counter magic and spells which drain or counter magic... 

Given all this, might not more research turn up more and better protections against magic?  Why not discuss how the rite of Tranquility might be modified to render a mage normal rather than lobotomized.  Or a dweomer rune over every doorstep to protect villages.  Or the Litany of Adralla read at every council meeting to protect against mages ruling through mind control.

There are a zillion possible options in a fantasy world.  Is it so crazy to brain storm over possibilities rather than declare the death penalty or lifetime imprisonment against all mages?

Incorrect, the devs have to keep the lore consistent or risk... well I'm sure we've all seen the me3 forums.

I've already explained why the litany won't work one or two pages back, it protects the mind from blood magic, not the soul from possesion.Demons can use blood magic but are not blood magic incarnate.A mage dabbling in blood magic pales in comparison to a mindless abomination.The problem with trying to research all those options is it could take years,decades maybe centuries to bare any fruit and thats if it bares any at all.War is happening now and we need a soloution now.I'm all for tranquilizing every mage tho but having thousands of mindless drones waiting on your every command 24/7 is a bit of a headache don't you think? You really think a dweomer rune is going to stop a rampaging abomination from coming in?

This is what we have on Adralla, the mage who wrote the Litany.  "Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells
to demonic summons." (Bolded emphases mine).

The Litany itself MAY not work against demonic possession, although this codex info implies that it actually could, but that doesn't mean there's no defense against it at all. Have you forgotten that the entire point of using the Litany while you fight with Uldred is to prevent those mages from becoming abominations?  Perhaps it could be argued that the Litany only prevents a blood mage from controlling a mage's mind so that they can't muster the willpower to resist possession, but as it stands you could argue that the Litany helps prevent mages from being possessed.

Even so, the fact that we have the Litany strongly implies that there is knowledge out there that could lead to a viable defense against possession. 

And of course I shouldn't have to point out that we DO have at least one means of ending possession that has already taken place.  

Edited to clarify a point about the practical application of the Litany itself.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 mai 2012 - 09:38 .

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

So it does rather stand to reason that Tevinter mages have a much broaded repertoire of knowledge at hand about magic, the Fade, and how to deal with problems. The Veil HAS to be extremely thin or completely gone there, otherwise we have to throw basic DA lore about the Veil away. But if demons and spirits are roaming about freely in Tevinter, clearly they aren't spilling out into the rest of Thedas and we haven't gotten any news that Tevinter has been wiped off the map.

Right. I remember Wynne says in the endgame of DAO that she's traveling to Minrathous with Shale because their knowledge on the arcane is extensive.

So it's definitely a logical assumption that despite the blood magic, demons, human sacrifices, and everything that Tevinter knows how to survive and keep their society safe.

As safe as living in Tevinter can be anyway.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 mai 2012 - 09:41 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Silfren wrote...
So it does rather stand to reason that Tevinter mages have a much broaded repertoire of knowledge at hand about magic, the Fade, and how to deal with problems. The Veil HAS to be extremely thin or completely gone there, otherwise we have to throw basic DA lore about the Veil away. But if demons and spirits are roaming about freely in Tevinter, clearly they aren't spilling out into the rest of Thedas and we haven't gotten any news that Tevinter has been wiped off the map.

I remember Wynne says in the endgame of DAO that she's traveling to Minrathous because their knowledge on the arcane is extensive.

So it definitely stands to reason that despite the blood magic, demons, human sacrifices, and everything that Tevinter knows how to survive and keep their society safe.

As safe as living in Tevinter can be anyway.

I also find it interesting that Wynne doesn't say anything about how horrid and awful Tevinter is.  I don't recall her having anything to say, at least.  Which isn't to say I'm trying to claim that Tevinter is a paradise, but I do find it fascinating that it doesn't seem to be a den of horrors that make people outside Tevinter unwilling to visit.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I swear I'm not doing it on purpose, TEWR.

Doing what?

I might've called you evil again, or something.  I dunno.

[GavrielKay]

Emzamination wrote...
I've already explained why the litany won't work one or two pages back, it protects the mind from blood magic, not the soul from possesion.

Which explains nothing, as I was referring to protecing normals from mind control which seems to be folks' bigger worry.  I would assume mages already have ways to defend themselves, or circles would be puppet shows.

A mage dabbling in blood magic pales in comparison to a mindless abomination.

And a mindless abomination pales in comparison to the systematic murder of all elves, mages and families of mages.

The problem with trying to research all those options is it could take years,decades maybe centuries to bare any fruit and thats if it bares any at all.

So they'd better get started! 

Anyway, my point in creating this thread was to wonder if all that research might not have happened hundreds of years ago IF instead of being able to lock the mages away, the Chantry and Thedas at large had been forced to think of alternatives.  The world wasn't at war then, and mages were apparently generally peaceful, so they might have learned quite a bit.

... but again its for the greater good of society.

I'm at a bit of a loss at how state sponsored mass murder is ever considered a greater good.  In fact I think human history has pretty much proven that if an idea like that takes hold, it rarely stops where it began.  First it'd be mages, then any criminal and then anyone who runs afoul of the power structure.  Once it's OK to murder someone for who they are, I'm afraid the "who they are" can become flexible.

The mages are lucky if they're even allowed to work the mines after rallying behind ander's magical nuke. They committed a grievous offence against the chantry using magic to a ridiculously destructive end verifying the chantry's beliefs. Freedom is out of the question and imprisonment will be heaven for them.

And does the system that drove Anders mad not bear any responsibility?  Do the people who happily let the system become a wretched parody of its original intent bear no blame?

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

And does the system that drove Anders mad not bear any responsibility?  Do the people who happily let the system become a wretched parody of its original intent bear no blame?

That's the crux of the problem, isn't it?  People like Anders don't form in a vacuum, and they aren't people who just up and decided to randomly kill people one day.  They are people who are driven to extremities because attempts at legal/moral/non-coercive/peaceful methods have systematically been ignored by the powers that be.  Disregarding the factors that create them doesn't do a damn thing for putting a stop to their violence, but waging war on them while ignoring their concerns DOES create...more people like Anders.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

I also find it interesting that Wynne doesn't say anything about how horrid and awful Tevinter is.  I don't recall her having anything to say, at least.  Which isn't to say I'm trying to claim that Tevinter is a paradise, but I do find it fascinating that it doesn't seem to be a den of horrors that make people outside Tevinter unwilling to visit.

Yea, but I suppose the topic never really came up with her. That she's willing to travel there is as you said truly fascinating. We also have Fenris' accounts of what his life was like there, and even he doesn't say anything to paint it like Abominations and Demons run rampant and uncontrolled.

You actually see an example of their magical knowledge in Fenris. He's able to live a normal-ish life with lyrium in his skin. Lyrium is normally toxic and incredibly fatal to people that have direct contact with it. But Fenris survives to this day. And Hawke can be given an invitation to Tevinter, should he be a douche to Fenris and give him back to Danarius.

It's an incredibly ****ty place to live, but it's certainly not filled with chaos to the point of being a place no one can live in or even want to visit.

I think even Brother Genitivi went there once.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 mai 2012 - 10:00 .

[Ivucci]

GavrielKay wrote...

We know there is a rite of Tranquility which can completely sever a mage's link to the Fade.

Given all this, might not more research turn up more and better protections against magic?  Why not discuss how the rite of Tranquility might be modified to render a mage normal rather than lobotomized.

Oh, excellent point.

[GavrielKay]

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

And does the system that drove Anders mad not bear any responsibility?  Do the people who happily let the system become a wretched parody of its original intent bear no blame?

That's the crux of the problem, isn't it?  People like Anders don't form in a vacuum, and they aren't people who just up and decided to randomly kill people one day.  They are people who are driven to extremities because attempts at legal/moral/non-coercive/peaceful methods have systematically been ignored by the powers that be.  Disregarding the factors that create them doesn't do a damn thing for putting a stop to their violence, but waging war on them while ignoring their concerns DOES create...more people like Anders.

It's part of why I (and I think some others) find the Chantry to be more evil than good.  As they consider themselves right by divine authority, they don't leave themselves room for proper compromise or even open discussion.  As soon as the mages push for more freedom, they're threatened with war.  But if the mages didn't push, then nothing would change.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Ivucci wrote...

I'm not gonna play a what's-more-evil game. More importantly, I completely and utterly fail to see the point of taking children away from their mothers and how does it help anything.

You are only seeing things from one side. I guess you never talk to people who lost their love ones at Redclift due to Isolde's selfishness. A village almost destroyed had my Warden didn't arrive there in time. Does it worth it to risk so many lives just for a child mage to be free?

 

Ivucci wrote... 
I don't understand your example with the cavemen. No, I don't assume cavemen could understand lightning in a matter of days and I don't know how is it relevant to my argument.


Therefore I'll repeat what I said above:

"People plus one spirit in the game clearly start recognizing that something is awfully wrong with the system. Once they are aware of it, they took a certain mental step forward and you can't push them back.
Well, you could try using force, which other posters are suggesting, but I very seriously doubt that will make things better."

Even though Kirkwall is an extreme example, the level of complete desperation that we saw there, the extreme measures taken by both sides = the system is not functional.

Middle age people  don't understand what is "basic right" just like cavemen don't understand what is lightning. To understand what is "basic right" they have to go through the process of evolution like we did. They have not come to that point yet. They need natural section to work with. And they don't have that. Someone like Thomas Jefferson need to exist. US declaration of independance  need to happen. Jean-jacques Rousseau need to born. Prinitng press and Industrialization need to happen so that idea can spread. University need to be be established so scholars all over the world could come and do their research  All this natural selection need to happen assuming Thedas equal to our society evolution  This is realistic society evolution. Not some magical society evolution that pop out nowhere. The point is average joe Templar,  mages and common folks don't think the way you think.

Ivucci wrote...  
Are you suggesting people have no right to fight against oppression, torture and inhuman practices just because "they happen all the time anyway"? I cannot accept that.

People cannot fight against something they never think about. They fight for survival. They fight to defend themselves. They fight to food. They fight for power and land. They fight for wealth. They fight for their religion.They fight for pure violence That's what middle age people do. They don't fight for equality to live among men. Only pre-industrialization and modern people do that. 

Ivucci wrote.

Also, the fact that First Enchanters are allowed to study is irrelevant, it's the average-mage-Joe who needs to have all resources available to be able to study and understand what it is that he is constantly being accused of, even though he hasn't actually even committed it yet.

Average mage don't have the will to resist demon and blood magic. That's why they need to undergo Harrowind to proof themselves. Until they can proof themselves, it's safe to leave the study of demonology to those who qualified.

Ivucci wrote...
First Enchanters are still just dogs on a leash.

That's your opinion. As far as I can see. The chantry didn't say much how the First Enchanter should run his Circle. Knight Commander interfere sometime for security but even then he/she doesn't have much authority other than the right of annulment if demon outbreaks happen. Not all Knight Commander are irrational like Meredith. We have seen under certain circumstance, some Knight Commander can be reasonable. Just because Kirkwall is place of lunatic Templars and mages doesn't mean everywhere also the same.

Ivucci wrote...

Err... not sure what is expected of me now, shall I applaud your Amell for being amazing?

Every player's Amell is amazing. Not just mine. Have you played mage in DAO? You sound like someone who never been in a Circle before and play as mage.

Ivucci wrote...


No, I don't want complete freedom for mages and I have no idea why are you assuming that I do.

I'm saying there's a lot of room for a change, I'm saying the system is rotten and should be transformed, I'm saying a system that forces "weak" people (in other words, human beings who have doubts and fears) to
voluntarily agree to being emotionally crippled is an embodiment of somethig utterly evil, horrible and disgusting.

Sure. There a lot of room of improvement but what's the point? Thanks to Anders, now every mages is apostate and hunted down. How can you improve when you are at war?

Ivucci wrote..

Again, I don't know why are you automatically assigning me opinions. I happen to think, though, that the practice of Harrowing should be abandoned or at least transformed.

You are only viewing things from Ander's short sighted point of view. I suggest you start viewing the world from common folk and Templar point of view. And don't try to insert your modern society evolution theory about basic right. It doesn't work that way in sword and dragon fantasy.

The practise of Harrowind isn't perfect but it's solution to ensure the mage's free-will are  safe from demon possesion and blood magic temptation. Only strong will mage can self control themselves and live among men. Until you have a better solution which is none, you either have to take Harrowind's test or perform the rite of transquility or be killed. It's your choice. 

[GavrielKay]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
You are only seeing things from one side. I guess you never talk to people who lost their love ones at Redclift due to Isolde's selfishness. A village almost destroyed had my Warden didn't arrive there in time. Does it worth it to risk so many lives just for a child mage to be free?

Connor was only in a position to do such great harm because his mother was mortified about having a mage child.  The shame of magic itself and the thought of losing her son to the system were caused by the Chantry.  So, if the circle system caused the problem in Redcliffe, that's what we should be fixing.

Middle age people  don't understand what is "basic right" just like cavemen don't understand what is lightning.

The game world is not the real world, but back in time.  Thedas appears to be just fine with equality of the sexes, homosexuality and the idea of other intelligent species.  So, clearly this is not Earth several hundred years ago.  People in Thedas seem to have a pretty good concept of freedom and self determination.  Ferelden fought for freedom from Orlais and Tevinter is recognized as wrongly using slaves by most other nations.

People cannot fight against something they never think about.

The mages and slaves seem to have a pretty clear idea what oppression is.  That the people who aren't being oppressed don't think about it very much does not invalidate it as a well understood concept.

Average mage don't have the will to resist demon and blood magic.

Sure they do.  Very few mages succumb to demons without extreme outside pressure.  Therefore the system should probably focus more on creating well trained and happy mages than completely downtrodden, nothing-to-lose mages.

And don't try to insert your modern society evolution theory about basic right. It doesn't work that way in sword and dragon fantasy.

It isn't any worse than insisting on a Middle Ages mentality though.  The game world is neither of those places/times but rather a construct of the developers where the only rules are what they declare.  It seems clear that the Chantry is written as playing a large role in shaping the opinions of the common folk regarding mages.  Most commoners will never be chased down by an abomination or have to send a child off to the circle.  Their opinions are largely based on dogma and hearsay. 

A concerted effort to change these attitudes would take time, but as it isn't even allowed by the Chantry that doesn't really matter.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

GavrielKay wrote...
Connor was only in a position to do such great harm because his mother was mortified about having a mage child.  The shame of magic itself and the thought of losing her son to the system were caused by the Chantry.  So, if the circle system caused the problem in Redcliffe, that's what we should be fixing.

It's the parents who think safe magic can be studied without proper education that need fixing. The Circle has done it's job in teaching young mages how NOT to abuse their gift and resist blood magic temptaion.

GavrielKay wrote...

Middle age people  don't understand what is "basic right" just like cavemen don't understand what is lightning.

The game world is not the real world, but back in time.  Thedas appears to be just fine with equality of the sexes, homosexuality and the idea of other intelligent species.  So, clearly this is not Earth several hundred years ago.  People in Thedas seem to have a pretty good concept of freedom and self determination.  Ferelden fought for freedom from Orlais and Tevinter is recognized as wrongly using slaves by most other nations.

I have no comment about sexes. It's David Gaider's fan fiction that cannot be argued nor I'm interested with. People in Thedas have a pretty good concept of freedom and self determination within the restriction of their own exposition and order. Ferelden fought their freedom not because man is born free or men are created equal but to change the current ruler with a better ruler/ We see dynasties rise and fall when peasnt revolt. It's the same thing. Tyranny rulers were replaced. New ruler rise to power. People don't fight for democracy or communism. And woman don't fight the right to vote. That's how middle age people work.  

GavrielKay wrote...

The mages and slaves seem to have a pretty clear idea what oppression is.  That the people who aren't being oppressed don't think about it very much does not invalidate it as a well understood concept.

The City elves felt oppresed because they felt it's their land and nothing else  Just because few group of shamlen thugs decide to violate the elves doesn't mean all shamlen treated the same. Otherwise why would the chantry allowed Orsino to lead the shamlen in Kirkwall's circle of magi?

The mages? Only Anders,  Anders sympathizer, The isolonist and extremist Chantry opposition view that way. Some mages don't feel they're being oppresed.

GavrielKay wrote...


Average mage don't have the will to resist demon and blood magic.

Sure they do.  Very few mages succumb to demons without extreme outside pressure.  Therefore the system should probably focus more on creating well trained and happy mages than completely downtrodden, nothing-to-lose mages.

Very few? I see every mages in Kirkwall succumb to demon in DA 2. Every apostate turn to maleficar except Morrigan in DAO. 

GavrielKay wrote...
It isn't any worse than insisting on a Middle Ages mentality though.  The game world is neither of those places/times but rather a construct of the developers where the only rules are what they declare.  It seems clear that the Chantry is written as playing a large role in shaping the opinions of the common folk regarding mages.  Most commoners will never be chased down by an abomination or have to send a child off to the circle.  Their opinions are largely based on dogma and hearsay.  

A concerted effort to change these attitudes would take time, but as it isn't even allowed by the Chantry that doesn't really matter.

And you think rebellion caused by terroism could fix it? You have read yourself players themselves are divided to support the mages cause. Anders's action is not received well among the players. What make you thinks it would solve anything?

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 08 mai 2012 - 01:44 .

[Cigne]

GavrielKay wrote...

Silfren wrote...
So it does rather stand to reason that Tevinter mages have a much broaded repertoire of knowledge at hand about magic, the Fade, and how to deal with problems.  The Veil HAS to be extremely thin or completely gone there, otherwise we have to throw basic DA lore about the Veil away.  But if demons and spirits are roaming about freely in Tevinter, clearly they aren't spilling out into the rest of Thedas and we haven't gotten any news that Tevinter has been wiped off the map.

Yeah, I think it is clear from gameplay that the dangers of mages are overstated.  From the fact that Tevinter still exists to the fact that Kirkwall, overrun with crazed mages as it was, also still exists.  Circles shoudn't be able to survive if mages really are so thoroughly corruptible either - with so many mages in one place, certainly they would manage to wipe themselves out if the percentage of abominations was anywhere near high enough to justify mass imprisonment (or extinction as some posters would have).

It simply cannot be true that free mages will lead to the enslavement of all and the downfall of civilization as Thedas knows it - or the mages that were currently free should be well on their way to achieving such ends.

There are several cultures that have always had at least some free mages.  And of course apostates and maleficar in Andrastian countries.  There are just too many mages freely wandering about the place for them to truly be ticking time bombs waiting to destroy the world when they don't get their favorite cookie.

"It simply cannot be true..."? Do you even accept it as a possibility? And you're ignoring the rest of Silfren's post:

Silfren wrote...

One thing I don't think gets brought
up a lot is that based on the lore we have, if magic is being practiced
openly and often in Tevinter, and slaves are routinely murdered to fuel
blood magic, then the Veil would have to be all but non-existent, or
perhaps it IS non-existent there.  

And given Anders portrayal in Awakening, before Justice, I wouldn't claim it was the system that drove him mad.

I'm not arguing that the Chantry Circles aren't flawed. But the place where there is the most ongoing research into magic, the go-to place if you want answers, seems to be Tevinter. And I find it reasonable to think that thier breakthroughs, thier advances, are linked to what I would consider the abuse of magic.

I don't see a stable society arising where mages and normals live side by side, but if a change happens, if a way is found to give everyone magic, then the playing field would be equal again.

...would one be onboard with that, even if it meant forcing it onto normals, as with Fenris?  (I was going to suggest some form of synthesis, but-)