Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
That is why the mages cannot be trusted with magic. For the same reason that you have stated. The temptation to use blood magic is too great. I purposely use that scenario to show how easy it is for people to resort to powerful illegal method.
Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Or, again, demons/spirits conquered Thedas long ago. Given the power of possessing a mage who can't be bound and can go anywhere combined with a natural link to the demon's Fade powers, it could walk invisibly in the world, blowing up all the Chantries, people, and anything else. And that's just one demon.
Here's what the Dragon Age wiki says about the Nevarran Accord, in an entry about the Seekers. It's partway down the page, under the history section. I'm trying right now to track down more links to verify where that info comes from.GavrielKay wrote...
Silfren wrote...
I'm a little confused. That quoted codex is the one I'm familiar on the formation of the Circle, but there's also lore that indicates the Circles were created during the Nevarran Accord. That had to do with the Seekers of Truth and the Templar Order coming under Chantry authority, though, and I'm not certain there is any lore specifying exactly how this version of the formation of Circles came about. I do have to say, though, that it makes more sense that the Circles were formed per Chantry and templar collaboration with no regard given to the opinion of any group of mages, since I don't think the mages who went "cheerily into exile" willingly walked into a system of imprisonment and dissolution of basic human rights.
Perhaps you're thinking of the College of Magi? Another codex says the college routinely meets in Nevarra.
I think a group of bored, short sighted mages might have thought it was a good idea to segregate themselves in return for freedom to practice magic. Minus the 900 years of oppression that followed, they might have believed the Chantry would keep its word and leave them to study and practice in relative peace.
The codex was written by Sister Petrine (like so many are) so I suppose it is possible things weren't as rosy and she represents.
In any case, the timing of it looks odd for the Chantry. If mages were so incapable of control, why would they be allowed free access to Chantries (complete with all the women, children and beggars everyone says were killed by Anders in the game era Chantry) for 100 years before forming the circles?
Modifié par Silfren, 09 mai 2012 - 12:18 .
No. I don't know what the Orlaid did. But I do know, the Elves will kick out anyone from their land regardless of their races. That's make them even worst than the Orlais.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
The elves insist on taking back their land even after independance. The elves believed the land rightly belong to them alone. No other races should stay in their land. Therefore, they received the worst treatment of all. Had they submitted peacefully I doubt the Orlesian treated them badly.
Um....okay.... just what are you going on about? You truly don't know what Orlais did and you're trying to paint them as in the right for their actions, saying the Elves should've just accepted it?
GavrielKay wrote...
Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Or, again, demons/spirits conquered Thedas long ago. Given the power of possessing a mage who can't be bound and can go anywhere combined with a natural link to the demon's Fade powers, it could walk invisibly in the world, blowing up all the Chantries, people, and anything else. And that's just one demon.
That's a different sort of possibility, yes. Depending on whether a mages power is entirely available to the possessing demon... do we know if that's true?
GavrielKay wrote...
I didn't mean to imply that I thought they should be happy lighting candles. It was merely an attempt to show that the current Chantry dogma is in opposition to their past behavior.
The mages weren't rounded up and forced into circles because abominations were running wild and blood mages were mind controlling the city council. They were allowed to segregate themselves in a naive attempt to gain more freedom in their art.
In fact it was the Divine who threatened war, the mages merely locked themselves in a building and refused to keep the fire burning.
I agree with what you've said here. Segregation was originally their idea. Hell, the Isolationist fraternity still wants that. Some mages believe it's for the best.
Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 09 mai 2012 - 12:31 .
Then I repeat again. Forbidden art is forbidden art. No amount of excuses would make it right. The mages are not weakling. The Templars are not that immune to magic either. I have see a templar been thrown out and burn by common mage at the Gallow. Even without resorting to illegal magic. It's always easy to use power for anything. It always easy to justify it. It's not easy to take responsibilty and face the consequence.GavrielKay wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
That is why the mages cannot be trusted with magic. For the same reason that you have stated. The temptation to use blood magic is too great. I purposely use that scenario to show how easy it is for people to resort to powerful illegal method.
Since when is being raped, abused and having your life threatened "easy?"
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
No. I don't know what the Orlaid did. But I do know, the Elves will kick out anyone from their land regardless of their races. That's make them even worst than the Orlais.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
The elves insist on taking back their land even after independance. The elves believed the land rightly belong to them alone. No other races should stay in their land. Therefore, they received the worst treatment of all. Had they submitted peacefully I doubt the Orlesian treated them badly.
Um....okay.... just what are you going on about? You truly don't know what Orlais did and you're trying to paint them as in the right for their actions, saying the Elves should've just accepted it?
You only see the Orlais as oppressor. I see the elves general hatred towards all races. They claim the land their alone. If they had given any chance to succeed, everyone will be suffer. Not only Orlesian invaders but humans Ferelden.Silfren wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
No. I don't know what the Orlaid did. But I do know, the Elves will kick out anyone from their land regardless of their races. That's make them even worst than the Orlais.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
The elves insist on taking back their land even after independance. The elves believed the land rightly belong to them alone. No other races should stay in their land. Therefore, they received the worst treatment of all. Had they submitted peacefully I doubt the Orlesian treated them badly.
Um....okay.... just what are you going on about? You truly don't know what Orlais did and you're trying to paint them as in the right for their actions, saying the Elves should've just accepted it?
Shyeah, Elves defending their land from invaders is worse than Orlais BEING the invaders. Right. Gotcha.
Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 09 mai 2012 - 12:39 .
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Then I repeat again. Forbidden art is forbidden art. No amount of excuses would make it right. The mages are not weakling. The Templars are not that immune to magic either. I have see a templar been thrown out and burn by common mage at the Gallow. Even without resorting to illegal magic. It's always easy to use power for anything. It always easy to justify it. It's not easy to take responsibilty and face the consequence.GavrielKay wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
That is why the mages cannot be trusted with magic. For the same reason that you have stated. The temptation to use blood magic is too great. I purposely use that scenario to show how easy it is for people to resort to powerful illegal method.
Since when is being raped, abused and having your life threatened "easy?"
No. The mage must be lock up until they can prove themselve of self-controlled.
Silfren wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
No. I don't know what the Orlaid did. But I do know, the Elves will kick out anyone from their land regardless of their races. That's make them even worst than the Orlais.
Shyeah, Elves defending their land from invaders is worse than Orlais BEING the invaders. Right. Gotcha.
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
You only see the Orlais as oppressor. I see the elves general hatred towards all races. They claim the land their alone. If they had given any chance to suceed, everyone will be suffer. Not only Orlesian invaders but humans Ferelden.Silfren wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
No. I don't know what the Orlaid did. But I do know, the Elves will kick out anyone from their land regardless of their races. That's make them even worst than the Orlais.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
The elves insist on taking back their land even after independance. The elves believed the land rightly belong to them alone. No other races should stay in their land. Therefore, they received the worst treatment of all. Had they submitted peacefully I doubt the Orlesian treated them badly.
Um....okay.... just what are you going on about? You truly don't know what Orlais did and you're trying to paint them as in the right for their actions, saying the Elves should've just accepted it?
Shyeah, Elves defending their land from invaders is worse than Orlais BEING the invaders. Right. Gotcha.
Blood magic is the only option? That's bull**** to me. You obviously ignore my referance that mages are capable to defend themselves without blood magic. But you bent on justifying anything to suit your greed for power. I guess you agree with what Orsino did too because it is also matter of life and death This only reinforce my belief that the Chantry is right. I see there is little point to argue about this. We have to agree to disagree.Silfren wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Then I repeat again. Forbidden art is forbidden art. No amount of excuses would make it right. The mages are not weakling. The Templars are not that immune to magic either. I have see a templar been thrown out and burn by common mage at the Gallow. Even without resorting to illegal magic. It's always easy to use power for anything. It always easy to justify it. It's not easy to take responsibilty and face the consequence.GavrielKay wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
That is why the mages cannot be trusted with magic. For the same reason that you have stated. The temptation to use blood magic is too great. I purposely use that scenario to show how easy it is for people to resort to powerful illegal method.
Since when is being raped, abused and having your life threatened "easy?"
No. The mage must be lock up until they can prove themselve of self-controlled.
Bull. The rules completely change once you're facing down the point of a sword. Wanting to save your own life is hardly an "excuse," no more than being raped or beaten are. (Seriously, though? Wanting to avoid being raped or murdered are just EXCUSES? REALLY? What a happy, privileged life you plainly lead. Wow.)
It's a damn good reason to resort to that which is forbidden, especially when the forbidden is your ONLY option. Part of the lore of the setting is that templars can cancel out lyrium-fueled magic. Blood magic is supposed to be impossible to counter, or at least very difficult. Of course, we have been having a discussion on research into changing that, and of course we DO have the Litany of Adralla, but there it is. The lore does indicate that blood magic is something that mages resort to because it is harder, if not impossible, for templars to counteract.
Funny how you're hellbent on damning a person as immoral no matter what is at stake. I find it laughable that wanting to save your own life--not as an intellectual exercise, but as something that you have mere heartbeats to accomplish, being as a templar is coming at you with their sword drawn--is dismissed as just an excuse.
I don't believe for an instant that most of the people using that argument would refuse any means of saving their own life if they were literally in a life-or-death situation where they had seconds to act and zero time for moral considerations.
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Blood magic is the only option? That's bull**** to me. You obviously ignore my referance that mages are capable to defend themselves without blood magic. But you bent on justifying anything to suit your greed for power. I guess you agree with what Orsino did too because it is also matter of life and death This only reinforce my belief that the Chantry is right. I see there is little point to argue about this. We have to agree to disagree.Silfren wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Then I repeat again. Forbidden art is forbidden art. No amount of excuses would make it right. The mages are not weakling. The Templars are not that immune to magic either. I have see a templar been thrown out and burn by common mage at the Gallow. Even without resorting to illegal magic. It's always easy to use power for anything. It always easy to justify it. It's not easy to take responsibilty and face the consequence.GavrielKay wrote...
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
That is why the mages cannot be trusted with magic. For the same reason that you have stated. The temptation to use blood magic is too great. I purposely use that scenario to show how easy it is for people to resort to powerful illegal method.
Since when is being raped, abused and having your life threatened "easy?"
No. The mage must be lock up until they can prove themselve of self-controlled.
Bull. The rules completely change once you're facing down the point of a sword. Wanting to save your own life is hardly an "excuse," no more than being raped or beaten are. (Seriously, though? Wanting to avoid being raped or murdered are just EXCUSES? REALLY? What a happy, privileged life you plainly lead. Wow.)
It's a damn good reason to resort to that which is forbidden, especially when the forbidden is your ONLY option. Part of the lore of the setting is that templars can cancel out lyrium-fueled magic. Blood magic is supposed to be impossible to counter, or at least very difficult. Of course, we have been having a discussion on research into changing that, and of course we DO have the Litany of Adralla, but there it is. The lore does indicate that blood magic is something that mages resort to because it is harder, if not impossible, for templars to counteract.
Funny how you're hellbent on damning a person as immoral no matter what is at stake. I find it laughable that wanting to save your own life--not as an intellectual exercise, but as something that you have mere heartbeats to accomplish, being as a templar is coming at you with their sword drawn--is dismissed as just an excuse.
I don't believe for an instant that most of the people using that argument would refuse any means of saving their own life if they were literally in a life-or-death situation where they had seconds to act and zero time for moral considerations.
Modifié par Silfren, 09 mai 2012 - 01:04 .
What about those who are not involved? What about the lifes of children and loved ones? You do aware that once you become an abomination, you loose your sanity? What good will that do? You are endangering everyone around you no matter who they are. But you never think about it. Because you only think about power. I played as mage too and I killed many templars. So do my mage companions. I trust my arcane magic more than pathetic blood magic. People who care for other will not do anything reckless. People who lack of self control however only think for themselves. This where the Harrowing is effective tool to filter such people.Silfren wrote...
No, I didn't ignore your statement. I addressed it when pointing out that we have lore that indicates that templars can counter magic fueled by lyrium but that there is lore indicating that blood magic cannot be countered in the same way.
I'm justifying my greed for power? You got that out of my assertion that there's something wrong with expecting people to adhere to strict moral standards even when it will cost them their life? Um. Wow. Maybe you should take a step back from this discussion for a while.
Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 09 mai 2012 - 01:12 .
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
What about those who are not involved? What about the lifes of children and loved ones? You do aware that once you become an abomination, you loose your sanity? What good will that do? You are endangering everyone around you no matter who they are. But you never think about it. Because you only think about power. I played as mage too and I killed many templars. So do my mage companions. I trust my arcane magic more than pathetic blood magic. People who care for other will not do anything reckless. People who lack of self control however only think about themselves. This where the Harrowing is effective tool to filter such people.Silfren wrote...
No, I didn't ignore your statement. I addressed it when pointing out that we have lore that indicates that templars can counter magic fueled by lyrium but that there is lore indicating that blood magic cannot be countered in the same way.
I'm justifying my greed for power? You got that out of my assertion that there's something wrong with expecting people to adhere to strict moral standards even when it will cost them their life? Um. Wow. Maybe you should take a step back from this discussion for a while.
Modifié par Silfren, 09 mai 2012 - 01:23 .
Realistically, I don't turn into monster. I retain my humanity and aware of the consequences. That's the different.Silfren wrote...
When a person is faced with the immediate threat of death, they cannot be expected to think of the world at large. It is human nature to be focused on your own survival. You may think of the people in your immediate circle of loved ones who depend on you, but you're not bloody likely to be thinking about anyone else.
You're not thinking about this realistically. When an armed and armored soldier is running at you with a drawn sword, and they clearly intend to run you through with it, you are simply not going to be thinking about anything but your own immediate survival. You aren't going to take the time to think about people fifty feet away from you or two miles away, much less the world at large. Your thoughts are most likely going to be some variation on "OHSH*TGONNADIE!!!!!!!!!! HELP WHAT DO I DO!?????????????????"
The problem with blood magic is, the risk of possesion by a demon. The more you use blood magic, the higher the risk.To me, once being possessed, it make no difference than me becoming a monster. I rather kill myself if that happen. Because life has no meaning if I loose my humanity. Humanity is more important than slight advantage of blood magic.Silfren wrote...
So you can dispense with just dismissing my entire point as being just about my thinking only about power. For the discussion at hand, I was talking about a specific situation of a person in a life or death scenario.
The fact is, most people are not going to be thinking about moral ideologies. Basic human survival instinct is a hard thing to overcome, and most people won't have the willpower or the desire to overwhelm that survival drive with personal moral codes. Nor should they be expected to. It's not wrong to want to save your own life by any means necessary, and when you've got about three seconds to make a decision that will make the difference in whether you're alive ten seconds from now, you can't be expected to spend the time deliberating over the morality of your choice.
Anyway, you also overlooked a key point about blood magic I raised. It isn't always about spells specific to blood magic. There's more to blood magic than "the school of blood magic spells," after all. Blood can fuel spells from any other school of magic in the same way that lyrium does. So you talking about trusting your arcane magic over "pathetic blood magic" completely ignores that you can USE blood to POWER those "arcane magic" spells. After all, if you expend your supply of mana and don't have lyrium on hand to replace it, blood is your only other option besides waiting for your native mana supply to refill itself. And if you're in the middle of fighting for your life, you don't have the luxury of waiting for that to happen.
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Can an abomination return to their former self or be cured by others?
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
No. I don't know what the Orlaid did. But I do know, the Elves will kick out anyone from their land regardless of their races. That's make them even worst than the Orlais.
Silfren wrote...
Shyeah, Elves defending their land from invaders is worse than Orlais BEING the invaders. Right. Gotcha.
Silfren wrote...
Elves have justifiable reasons to hate humans. I haven't seen any lore indicating that they hate ALL other races, but given their history of subjugation it's completely reasonable that they have a healthy abiding contempt for humans. Not that all do, as is demonstrated in the persons of Merrill and Marethari and a few others.
Far as I know, the elves don't claim any lands as their own other than those which historically DID belong to them before any humans showed up, and the lands that were specifically GIVEN to them. Hardly surprising that they would expect people to honor the deal. But there's nothing anywhere to indicate that all the Dalish are slavering for the opportunity to slaughter all the humans.
Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Yes. Apparently it happens in Asunder, although not without obvious trauma of the experience.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 mai 2012 - 03:41 .
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
The problem with blood magic is, the risk of possesion by a demon. The more you use blood magic, the higher the risk.To me, once being possessed, it make no difference than me becoming a monster. I rather kill myself if that happen. Because life has no meaning if I loose my humanity. Humanity is more important than slight advantage of blood magic.
Which lead to my question: Can an abomination return to their former self or be cured by others?
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
The problem with blood magic is, the risk of possesion by a demon. The more you use blood magic, the higher the risk.To me, once being possessed, it make no difference than me becoming a monster. I rather kill myself if that happen. Because life has no meaning if I loose my humanity. Humanity is more important than slight advantage of blood magic.
dragonflight288 wrote...
The templars often break their own rules more than the mages themselves do based on what we see in the game.
You may use all the lore to back up your argument but it still doesn't change how the elves feel towords the humans. I'm not talking about the orlesian invaders only. I'm talking about all humans. I get the impression the elves even hate my Aeducan for no apparent reason. It make no difference playing as Aeducan or Cousland when I visited the Dalish.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
What we don't know is how the Fall of the Dales transpired in truth, but we have more historical evidence to point to Orlais being the original aggressors in some form rather then the Elves.
You may want to brush up on your lore before you come into a discussion that's pretty lore-centric and start erroneously stating things that aren't true. Might help just a tad.
You are mistaken. I have no home. Ferelden belong to Ferelden's people a long time ago. The war between man and elves had long past. I don't hold any grudge against the human But the same things can not be said to general elven population. They'll most likely going to shoot any shemlens they see running in their forest without questioning like Tamlen.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I'm curious as to how Sacred_Fantasy would react if his homeland was suddenly invaded by a foreign state, considering he's stated that people should just accept being conquered rather then fight back.
I'm even more curious to know if he would accept it if he knew that in the future, he and his fellow citizens would be reduced to scorned and destitute peasants at best and slaves at worst.
Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 09 mai 2012 - 04:52 .
Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Both parties are to be blamed. But you are taking my quote out of context. I was referring to mage incapability to resist blood magic's temptation which you acknowlodge.
That is why the mages cannot be trusted with magic. For the same reason that you have stated. The temptation to use blood magic is too great. I purposely use that scenario to show how easy it is for people to resort to powerful illegal method.
Retour en haut