87 réponses à ce sujet

[Astorax]

Depends what the discussion inside the thread looks like Sloth.



Quite possibly it would, yes.



As Eurypterid said, there is a fine line between something that needs to be locked/closed/banned and something that can be let to run free.



Generally speaking (and this is broadly general) letting off steam and a certain amount of trolling is fine. To clamp down too harshly basically gives the trolls EXACTLY what they want...attention. No amount of moderation on our part will stop that. Period. We could go ban happy and slam bans on folks and most of them know how to get around that. Even IP bans aren't foolproof and are relatively easily gotten around. Then we get to play the doppleganger game of trying to figure out who is what old poster (we did a lot of that on the NWN boards).



This isn't to say they will be given free reign, and we will step in when needed. The ban hammer has become active and we can and will issue bans where necessary.

[Astorax]

Speaking to the OP however, you do realize you're every bit as bad as the people you're telling off, right?



There's a right way, and a wrong way to provide criticism of how and what another poster posts. Being offensive, and/or antagonistic is ALWAYS the wrong way to go about it. It won't do anything except cause the other side to get defensive and respond in kind. It's the nature of the internet. It takes someone taking the high road and looking past the manner in which something is presented, and looking at the content they're putting out there.

[MerinTB]

Thank you, Astorax.

Regardless of opinion on the game, we all need to be as civil as possible.

Occassional barbs I think are expected, of course. 

[Eurypterid]

MerinTB wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...

Wild Maiden, I agree with much of what you and Avispex say, but there's also a fine line that is crossed at times. One has to be aware that saying something is broken or is overpowered doesn't necessarily make it so. This isn't aimed at you or anyone in particular, but I've seen posts that are blatantly just "I wish things were designed THIS way because that's how I like it" that have nothing to do with anything being broken, balanced, or over/under powered.

But yes, I've been shocked and disappointed at the community many times when I see the fans of the game flock to a thread that gives good criticism of the game and they start tossing around words like 'troll', 'hater', 'whiner', and saying things like 'L2P' or 'Waaaaaaahhhhhh'. Seriously, does anyone think things like that are going to build a good, fun community?

Being an apologist for trolls is not very becoming, you know?

I do absolutely agree that many, many responses to people criticizing the game have been horrendous, immature, offensive - and regardless of the criticism, there really is no excuse for that.  So, in a sense, I agree with you and with some of what Wild Maiden and the OP said.

But -

and it's a J.Lo sized butt (man, I hate puns I make worse than puns in general) -

If people have legitimate complaints and wish honest discussions, many of them are going about it the wrong way.  And by that I mean that they are wording their criticisms, heck even the thread titles, in ways meant to bait or insult others.  This is JUST AS wrong as all the inexcusable responses they receive - but, not trying to sound like a grade-schooler, they started it.

If you walk into a convention hall full of Star Wars fans, get up to the mike for Q&A time, and then criticize Star Wars by calling the fans "fanboys" and "virgins living in their parent's basements" and so on, as wrong as the result will be, you will probably be AT LEAST verbally tore a new one if not physically assaulted.  It's not right that the response to you would be that, but, honestly, what did you expect?

Just look at the criticism threads and the hyperbolic titles : "Time to eat crow" ; "DAO: Deffinately not FTW" ;  "This is last Bioware game I ever buy" ; and the repeated efforts of worriedme03 to post his "Dragon Age Fail List"

Maybe you could could get past the hyperbolic titles into an honest discussion, but by the responses those threads receive it is fairly obvious their intention is to draw in a flame war and that they are highly effective.

On top of this, if people with honest problems, criticisms, and critiques do not want to receive negative, unproductive, idiotic responses it would help if their initial posts weren't full of attacks and insults:

"don't be so mindless and intolerant of people" ; "For those air heads" ; "you dirty money grabbers"

Also, when people give their opinions and state them as irrefutable facts it tends to incite people to not only disagree but point out how over-the-top such statements are.

Everytime someone tries to criticize the game but tosses in a "fanboi" comment, they are instigating.  They are egging on the responses that you, the mod, are decrying.

Let me be clear - I am not defending fans of the game immaturely and rudely attacking those who criticize the game.  I am just pointing out that, most of the time, those criticism are written in ways that are all but begging for a flame war.

There are many threads with honest reviews and critiques of the game that list opinions on parts the poster didn't like, or critiques of parts of the game that they don't feel are balanced or properly working, and any attacks on those reviews and critiques (the ones free form hyperbole and ad hominems) absolutely do not deserve attacks by people just blindly defending the game from any criticism.

I'm sorry, but everytime I see a moderator tell someone "I agree with much of what you say" to someone who just posted "the dismissive and negative attitude the fanboys" and "The first step on the road to recovery is admitting you have a problem,
or so they say. So many people here seem to be in denial still..." or of the OP who about half of his post is "from now on don't be so mindless and intolerant of people" and "so stand down mabaris" - well, it will be read by those people as justification to keep dismissing people who disagree with them as "fanbois"

Mod, this thread's OP was not giving good criticism.  This thread's OP was an insult at a wide range of people, many of whom did not deserve it.  Fully half of Wild Maiden's response was negative and derogatory, not productive.  I applaud that you are critical of supporters of DAO being rude and unconscionable to those who have honest criticisms of the game, but I think you do the community as a whole a disservice by seemingly legitimizing the "take that, fanboi" cry.

I'm hardly an apologist for trolls, but to be honest, the worst behavior I've seen on these boards has come from the supposed fans of the game. Not those with issues ro who dislike it.

But you're overlooking the 'much of what you say' part. I don't agree with insulting (either directly or obliquely) the fans of the game, no. I do agree though, that many times a critical post/thread is dog-piled by people that can't bear to see the game criticized.

As for the 'asking for it' by posting an inflammatoy thread or post, I disagree. Everyone here is responsible for their own behavior. I don't care what someone posts, there's no excuse to act like the troll they accuse others of being. Don't you think it would be better to either ignore the post altogether or respond in a civil fashion with the thought in mind that maybe that other person is just really upset and might actually be willing to discuss things if people didn't try to stoke the flames?

[Staylost]

Eurypterid wrote...

Wild Maiden, I agree with much of what you and Avispex say, but there's also a fine line that is crossed at times. One has to be aware that saying something is broken or is overpowered doesn't necessarily make it so. This isn't aimed at you or anyone in particular, but I've seen posts that are blatantly just "I wish things were designed THIS way because that's how I like it" that have nothing to do with anything being broken, balanced, or over/under powered.

But yes, I've been shocked and disappointed at the community many times when I see the fans of the game flock to a thread that gives good criticism of the game and they start tossing around words like 'troll', 'hater', 'whiner', and saying things like 'L2P' or 'Waaaaaaahhhhhh'. Seriously, does anyone think things like that are going to build a good, fun community?

No offense, but if you guys would delete and give warnings for such things, these boards would be more fun.

I am glad you are appealing to our sense of decency, but you've got a big game on your hands. Many people will not read nor care about your plea.

Please take the time to get these boards back into shape.

[Urik187]

the point of this thread is....

pointless.

people will ****

people will cry

people will moan.



me? i like it when they do all three LOL

[Haexpane]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

I'd love to respond to this if I had any idea what the OP was talking about.

I'd buy that for a dolla

[Wolfva2]

Memengwa wrote...

Don't feed the trolls!

But by all means feed the birds.

Shale disaproves -10

MerinTB hit the nail on the head.  I'm one of the people who often posts against the people who post anti-(insert game title) posts.  I do it on a number of forums and for a number of games.  Often, I'm not supporting the game so much as pointing out to those people that what they are complaining about is purely their opinion.  Yet, their posts make it abundantly clear that they believe that their opinion is the way things are supposed to be.  Since the game isn't what THEY wanted, it obviously is broken, the devs obviously don't know what they're doing, and if only the game was completely changed into what THEY want then it would be perfect as opposed to the complete and utter piece of crap that it currently is and it is DOOMED...absolutely DOOMED!!! if the devs don't wise up and IMMEDIATELY acknowledge the poster as the ONE...TRUE...PROPHET of gamingdom, scrap the current game, and completely rewrite it.  Often, these people state how easy it would be to change millions of lines of code,etc.  I find these types of posts to not only be unhelpfull, but idiotic to the nth degree.  Why?  BECAUSE one man's opinion is nothing more then that.  AN OPINION.  To many of the 'haters' who post against a game don't realize this.  They think their opinion trumps all, including what the devs wanted to make, and what other players enjoy.

When someone creates a game,  I assume that they created what they wanted to.  For instance, if they create mages that can freeze opponents in place odds are preettttyyy good that's what they wanted to do.  For someone to come to the forums and say, "This SUCKS!  Freezing people in place is OP!  I DEMAND that they change this immediately or the game is doomed!"  Ok, is that guy right?  Or is it working as intended?  Is there a better way to have phrased one's discontent?  Howabout, "I've been thinking, and in my opinion freezing oponents in place seems to be overpowered.  It enables you to effortlessly defeat foes without a challenge.  Perhaps some tweaking is in order?  Either increasing the cooldown, or decreasing the duration?  Or perhaps increasing resistance across the board towards cold based attacks?"  Granted, there will still be people with answers like, "L2P NOOB!" or, "Hey, don't like it don't use it jerkwad!"  But I think there will be a LOT more positive discussion from other people about the matter.  

[Aidunno]

Just to let you all know.. my opinion is the only one that matters.. (Sticks tongue out and blows raspberry).



Now you have that in mind.. So many of the discussion points are a matter of opinion. I play games for enjoyment. I don't care if everything is perfectly as I want it, in fact I don't believe any game will ever be. When it comes to patches, bugs should be fixed as a priority and adjustments made for the good of the majority. Sometimes these changes are not ones I will like, other times they are. If I enjoy the game that is all that matters. After all I paid for it and want my money's worth.



What is important for everyone to realiese is that it is obvious that Bioware is listening to the community. Even if changes are not made, either as quickly as we want (and lets's face it, we don't know what a "simple change" actually involves), or simply because Bioware have decided not to implement it, we should agree that simply listening is a major plus for any future development.

[Sloth Of Doom]

There was an actual thread about how to post constructive criticisms as opposed to screaming and shouting like a four year old.  Ironically, it was locked.

http://social.biowar.../9/index/300484

Ironic, that a thread made for no other reason than to spark anger is permitted to stay and be turned into a discussion, but an actual discussion is locked as unsuitable for these forums.

[Eurypterid]

Wolfva2 wrote...
Shale disaproves -10

MerinTB hit the nail on the head.  I'm one of the people who often posts against the people who post anti-(insert game title) posts.  I do it on a number of forums and for a number of games.  Often, I'm not supporting the game so much as pointing out to those people that what they are complaining about is purely their opinion.  Yet, their posts make it abundantly clear that they believe that their opinion is the way things are supposed to be.  Since the game isn't what THEY wanted, it obviously is broken, the devs obviously don't know what they're doing, and if only the game was completely changed into what THEY want then it would be perfect as opposed to the complete and utter piece of crap that it currently is and it is DOOMED...absolutely DOOMED!!! if the devs don't wise up and IMMEDIATELY acknowledge the poster as the ONE...TRUE...PROPHET of gamingdom, scrap the current game, and completely rewrite it.  Often, these people state how easy it would be to change millions of lines of code,etc.  I find these types of posts to not only be unhelpfull, but idiotic to the nth degree.  Why?  BECAUSE one man's opinion is nothing more then that.  AN OPINION.  To many of the 'haters' who post against a game don't realize this.  They think their opinion trumps all, including what the devs wanted to make, and what other players enjoy.

This is basically what I was trying to say in my response to Wild. Unfortunately, even the posts that criticize the game in a well thought out fashion are subjected to flaming and insults (as you noted).

Staylost wrote...

No offense, but if you guys would delete and give warnings for such things, these boards would be more fun.

I
am glad you are appealing to our sense of decency, but you've got a big
game on your hands. Many people will not read nor care about your plea.


Please take the time to get these boards back into shape.

No offense taken. Until today, we mods really didn't have much in the way of teeth, as the ban functionality was not working. It is now, and those that need to have a vacation from the boards due to behavior issues will likely see their privileges taken away.

But it's a two-way street. We can only do so much. The community has to do its part by following the rules of civility as well. We can't police everything all the time (we're just volunteers, after all, and have our own lives to attend to as well).

[Astorax]

Staylost wrote...

No offense, but if you guys would delete and give warnings for such things, these boards would be more fun.

I am glad you are appealing to our sense of decency, but you've got a big game on your hands. Many people will not read nor care about your plea.

Please take the time to get these boards back into shape.

Any post that begins with "No offense" is likely to be offensive...just sayin.

Having said that, if there's people/posts you have specific issues with, then by all means, start messaging moderators about it and we'll look into it.

There are a VERY vocal few that are making things a bit ugly.  MOST of the people that are brought up get a warning from us, and step into line.  The few that don't, get temp bans. That's how it works.

General bickering will not usually be bothered with because, frankly, it's not worth the time.  A post in the thread by a moderator that says "keep it civil" is the warning.  If you don't heed that, then there may be temp bans in the future for those that don't heed that.

As for the forums being more "fun"...having been part of very draconic moderated forums isn't fun either.  Where you have to constantly go over what you're about to post for fear that some moderator's going to take random offense to something you said and slap a ban hammer down on you.  There's two sides to it and we have to walk the line very carefully.

Again, if there are certain posters that you think are stepping out of line, message a moderator about it.  We can't be everywhere at once.

[Haexpane]

Astorax wrote...
 

Any post that begins with "No offense" is likely to be offensive...just sayin.

 

Also be wary of any "news" report that starts with "In this economy..."  expect heaping gravy trays full of corporate spin about "moving forward.." 

[Staylost]

Astorax wrote...

Staylost wrote...

No offense, but if you guys would delete and give warnings for such things, these boards would be more fun.

I am glad you are appealing to our sense of decency, but you've got a big game on your hands. Many people will not read nor care about your plea.

Please take the time to get these boards back into shape.

Any post that begins with "No offense" is likely to be offensive...just sayin.

Having said that, if there's people/posts you have specific issues with, then by all means, start messaging moderators about it and we'll look into it.

There are a VERY vocal few that are making things a bit ugly.  MOST of the people that are brought up get a warning from us, and step into line.  The few that don't, get temp bans. That's how it works.

General bickering will not usually be bothered with because, frankly, it's not worth the time.  A post in the thread by a moderator that says "keep it civil" is the warning.  If you don't heed that, then there may be temp bans in the future for those that don't heed that.

As for the forums being more "fun"...having been part of very draconic moderated forums isn't fun either.  Where you have to constantly go over what you're about to post for fear that some moderator's going to take random offense to something you said and slap a ban hammer down on you.  There's two sides to it and we have to walk the line very carefully.

Again, if there are certain posters that you think are stepping out of line, message a moderator about it.  We can't be everywhere at once.

Does reporting a post get to you guys? That is what I have been doing.

You really think my post was offensive? No offense, but if not, then isn't your e-platitude out of place?

Anyway, I'm glad to hear this response from you guys. Of course, warnings help keep things from becoming draconic. If you politely ask someone to stop causing a problem, & they don't, I don't see how a post delete is unfair.

And thanks for taking the time to do this. This is a nice place because of you guys. I just get afraid that we will slip over into ME board hell.

[Adria Teksuni]

Or lawd, the Bungie Board. That place is like a level of cyberhell.

[Hyunsai]

Eurypterid wrote...

This is basically what I was trying to say in my response to Wild. Unfortunately, even the posts that criticize the game in a well thought out fashion are subjected to flaming and insults (as you noted).

Exactly. For example, when someone was saying : "Is chain freezing bosses is right", his thoughts were deformed in a  "This SUCKS!  Freezing people in place is OP!  I DEMAND that they change this immediately or the game is doomed!" and he was ridiculized all other the place. (that was an example).

The irony is that some of those changes were already in the console version, so I suppose it is working as intended now (were those people actually right ?).

I expect the "opinions" of those against the patch fix will get the same attention of those guys.

[Wolfva2]

Eurypterid wrote...
This is basically what I was trying to say in my response to Wild. Unfortunately, even the posts that criticize the game in a well thought out fashion are subjected to flaming and insults (as you noted).

Luckily, though, it's the same people that flame and insult constructive posts.  These people, in my experience, very rarely actually post anything besides '+1' types of posts.  One or two liners which add nothing atall to the discussion and serve more to disrupt then anything else.  Now, I'm no forum moderator, but I do have a wee bit of experience arresting trouble makers.  I've found that often it's the same instigators who nudge situations into the red zone.  Stop them, and the problems often don't occur.  Whether it's a bar fight, a racial unrest situation, or a forum thread.  In real life you can often stop these instigators by moving them on, or sometimes even a glance letting them know you're watching.  Because they don't want to GET in trouble, they just want to start trouble.  And they can't instigate if they're locked up.  Or suspended. 

This is true also of the 'helpfull' instigator who honestly just wants to help out, but often ends up causing problems because he doesn't know how to control his loud mouth.  Something I'm occasionally guilty of in forums as you indirectly pointed out in your first post <sheepish grin>.

[Avispex]

OK, a couple of quick points. First off, "eat crow" is not the same as "eat sh*4 and f*** off and die." I guess the term is not used as much anymore, so I can kind of see how some people thought it was more inflammatory than intended. It really means recognize that you were wrong and be more humble. The reason I wrote it was because the patch vindicates the people on this forum who wanted nothing more than a civil, respectful, thoughtful discussion of the game's pros and cons and who were treated rather brutally by rabid and self righteous defenders telling us to just leave.

Participating on these forums has been frustrating and disappointing because instead of respecting and valuing thoughtful posts, even those that point out opinions that suggest certain changes be made or considered or explained, there is a group of people who mistake mindless loyalty for civil discourse. In other words, lashing out at anyone who dares suggest that a feature in the game is imperfect = really good forum behavior. Tolerating civil discussion and appreciating the time and thought other people put into their posts regardless of differences of opinion = horrible forum conduct.



I never meant to defend or approve of those whose only goal on the forum is to spew bile and venom at fans of the game or against the game's creators. I did intend to use the formal release of the patch as a conspicuous repudiation of those arrogant cretins who have been bullying people on the forum for the past month at the expense of civil discussion. I honestly don't care if somebody has a difference of opinion, that is fine. The suggestion that this forum is only for those who proclaim the game perfect as released is annoying and frustrating as hell. That's all this was about. Perhaps calling the forum attack dogs mabaris was over the line, so I take it back.

just, let's have room for everybody's opinion here, OK, from now on. No need for all the self righteousness. Many people who find and discuss flaws with the game are also huge BioWare fans and have both money and time invested in Dragon Age: Origins just like everybody else. I'm certainly not here to ruin the game with my feedback. I want this game to succeed and be as great as it could be. Most of the people bullied around here came here wanting the same thing.

[Wolfva2]

So, you aim a post at a small group of people but write it in a way that applies to a large group of people. Well, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that. However, why worry about what other people think? If you write an insightfull post about something you perceive to be a problem, and someone responds with, "LOLZERS! L2P Noob!!!!! Call the WHAMBULANCE! ROFLCOPTRZ!!!" why not just ignore them? Obviously they have nothing to say since they just said nothing. Instead of validating the nothingness they said, and then later posting what basically can be seen as an attack (justified or not) upon anyone with a differing view point, ignore the morons and instead reply to the people who actually DO discuss the issue from ALL sides.



As far as asking people to 'just get along', it'll never happen. Because there will ALWAYS be people who want to fight for whatever reason. Especially on an internet forum. Whether it is by overt insults, passive aggressiveness, or sly and manipulative innuendo they'll be there. Again, ignore them. When you concentrate only on the bad elements, whether they be forum responses, game issues, human nature, whatever, then soon you only see the bad elements. This leads to writing posts demeaning everyone with a differing opinion.



As an example of how not to post if you want real dialogue, let's say, hypothetically of course, someone was to say, "Perhaps calling the forum attack dogs mabaris was over the line, so I take it back." Now, this would be a passive aggressive way to insult people. It looks like an apology, but it really isn't. Well, I guess it IS an appology, but only to mabari hounds who may have taken offense at being called 'forum attack dogs'. It would be easy for someone that as an insult. After all, they were just called a forum attack dog. Using incindiary language will often get one flamed.



"Eat crow" is an offensive thing to say, btw. Attempting to humble others is often insulting also. For one thing, it asserts that you are their superior. That's rarely a way to win friends and influence people. Even if you were right. Another term for it is "rubbing one's nose into it". However, the patch does not vindicate people wanting a respectful dialogue. It doesn't address dialogue, or the forums, at all. Instead, it rectifies some issues that people had. Were these issues mistakes? Some people think so. Others do not. Enough people complained that Bioware decided to change some things to make the people who complained happy. If enough people complain in the opposite direction, they may reverse the patch. If this was to happen, and someone demanded that YOU eat crow since you were obviously wrong and defense of your opinion was the actions of a rabid forum attack dog blindly lashing out against other opinions, how would you take it?

[themaxzero]

Avispex wrote...

OK, a couple of quick points........

You basically made a gloat post and wondered why people got annoyed. Are you serious? You went looking for a fight and found one.

Anyone who gets really cut up over a single player game obviously is new to the Internet. People are jerks, get used to it.

Now if we were talking about the direct damage forum on the WoW forums thats a reason to get angry....

[MerinTB]

Eurypterid wrote...

I'm hardly an apologist for trolls, but to be honest, the worst behavior I've seen on these boards has come from the supposed fans of the game. Not those with issues ro who dislike it.

But you're overlooking the 'much of what you say' part. I don't agree with insulting (either directly or obliquely) the fans of the game, no. I do agree though, that many times a critical post/thread is dog-piled by people that can't bear to see the game criticized.

As for the 'asking for it' by posting an inflammatoy thread or post, I disagree. Everyone here is responsible for their own behavior. I don't care what someone posts, there's no excuse to act like the troll they accuse others of being. Don't you think it would be better to either ignore the post altogether or respond in a civil fashion with the thought in mind that maybe that other person is just really upset and might actually be willing to discuss things if people didn't try to stoke the flames?

Moderating is a thankless job for the most part, and I seriously do not want to get into an argument with a moderator who, as far as I can see, is doing a bang-up job.

So take this response with a grain of salt - I appreciate what you and your fellow moderators do.

That said -

the worst behavior I've seen on these boards has come from the supposed
fans of the game. Not those with issues ro who dislike it.

I cannot dispute this - it may well be what you have seen.  It is not what I have seen, and you cannot dispute that.
What I would say is this - if the people who criticize the game didn't start their threads, they wouldn't get the retaliations, and you'd see about 0% bad posts from fans of the game attacking other fans of the game.
BEFORE YOU SAY THAT'S NOT HOW A FORUM SHOULD BE, ALL ONE-SIDED, I AGREE!
My point is, however, that there is a type of person who goes to forums that are obviously organized primarily for fans of a certain thing (game, movie, author, whatever) just to attack said subject to see the reactions they can cause.  This is where the term troll comes into play - and despite what you insinuate (that the pro-game people are worse than the people posting criticisms) trolls are not mythilogical creatures.

you're overlooking the 'much of what you say' part

Not really - it is THAT EXACT PHRASE, being used in response to this thread, that bothered me enough to respond to you... and I address it directly in the following ways:

I agree with you and with some of what Wild Maiden and the OP said ...
everytime I see a moderator tell someone "I agree with much of what you
say" to someone who just posted "the dismissive and negative attitude
the fanboys" and "The first step on the road to recovery is admitting
you have a problem, or so they say. So many people here seem to be
in denial still..." or of the OP who about half of his post is "from
now on don't be so mindless and intolerant of people" and "so stand
down mabaris" - well, it will be read by those people as justification
to keep dismissing people who disagree with them as "fanbois" ...
I applaud that you are critical of supporters of DAO being rude and
unconscionable to those who have honest criticisms of the game, but I
think you do the community as a whole a disservice by seemingly
legitimizing the "take that, fanboi" cry.

The gist of what I'm getting at is that your SENTIMENT (short of the "it's really the pro-game people who are REALLY bad" apology) is fine, one that I AGREE WITH, but you giving it in response to the OP and Wild Maiden, whether intentional or not, legitimizes them using "fanboi" and "admit you have a problem" and "stand down mabaris."
You could have simply said that both sides need to watch the ad hominem attacks, told them both to stop poisoning the well with dismissive categorizations such as "fanboy" and "hater", and asked that both sides stop setting up strawmen.  Instead you posted something that has all the appearance of taking sides, and siding with people who are name-calling.
I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU ARE SIDING WITH THE ACTUAL NAME-CALLING, BUT THAT ISN'T THE POINT.  Ok?  Sory for the caps, but I'm so verbose most of the time I sometimes feel that certain points that I KNOW will likely be missed need to stand out.

Don't you think it would be better to either ignore the post altogether
or respond in a civil fashion with the thought in mind that maybe that
other person is just really upset and might actually be willing to
discuss things if people didn't try to stoke the flames?

Yes.
Yes I do.
And yet, early in the first weeks of the forums, what I witnessed was many of us trying to help people, even the ones with the inflammatory thread titles and insulting descriptions of their issues, and most of us in actually friendly and constructive ways.  The result was, I'd argue almost universally in the threads that lasted more than a few posts, that the OP would dismiss the advice he or she was given and go on to add more critiques, followed by critiques of what the people who were trying to help him or here were saying -
and then when the complaints became repetitive as much as the responses became repetitive to the repetitive complaints, the complainers started to, in their initial complaint, dismiss all the help that they knew would be tossed their way, often in very rude and arrogant ways.
And THAT is when the people "defending" the game started just dismissing these threads as trolling.

Ok?

---

Overall, your sentiment was right.  I just feel you said it at exactly the wrong time while agreeing with two people whom you probably shouldn't have in exactly the wrong thread.

Honestly, as a moderator for the DAO forums, you really want to be seen supporting a thread telling fans of the game that they should swallow their support of the game?  Because, regardless of intent, THAT is how many will view your response.

---

That probably came across as very harsh, and I apologize.  You can have last word if you like, and I won't bring this up any further (your post, that is) unless you explicitly want me to.

puts away very used, very beaten-up soapbox.

[VanDraegon]

Eurypterid wrote...

'Decency' on the boards would rise by an order of magnitude if terms like 'fanboy' and 'hater' weren't tossed around so freely, and if people didn't decide to flame others just for posting their opinion (no matter how it's worded). Just sayin'.

Why is it apparently ok to post inflammatory, insulting critical threads but not respond to them in the same manner? That doesnt make sense. You will see little flaming of critical opinions of DA:O if the derrogatory trolling posts were removed and civil posting guidelines, for both sides of the issues,  were enforced.

[Astorax]

Merin, you're projecting.



Posting in a thread is not the same as supporting it, nor is it seen so, as you say, "regardless of intent, THAT is how many will view your response." This may be how YOU see it.



In fact many times (I can only speak for myself) I post in a thread something innocuous so that the worst offenders (of either side fanboi or naysayer) know that I'm reading. Often times, that alone is enough to make people back off the most aggregious behaviour.



I don't say this empyrically...I say it from nine years of experience moderating Bioware's boards. It works. There are SOME people that don't take the hint. To those, we warn. To those that still don't get it, we ban.



It makes the boards slightly less "friendly" in that not everyone is all sunshine and bunnies. That's fine. We don't need/want to coddle and handhold the community into being all warm and fuzzy, for a lot of reasons.

[Staylost]

VanDraegon wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...

'Decency' on the boards would rise by an order of magnitude if terms like 'fanboy' and 'hater' weren't tossed around so freely, and if people didn't decide to flame others just for posting their opinion (no matter how it's worded). Just sayin'.

Why is it apparently ok to post inflammatory, insulting critical threads but not respond to them in the same manner? That doesnt make sense. You will see little flaming of critical opinions of DA:O if the derrogatory trolling posts were removed and civil posting guidelines, for both sides of the issues,  were enforced.

Neither are ok. That is the point.

[Astorax]

VanDraegon wrote...
Why is it apparently ok to post inflammatory, insulting critical threads but not respond to them in the same manner? That doesnt make sense. You will see little flaming of critical opinions of DA:O if the derrogatory trolling posts were removed and civil posting guidelines, for both sides of the issues,  were enforced.

Because one man's inflammatory post is another man's usual tone.  It's all in how it's received and read MUCH of the time...take the OP as a perfect example.  He didn't intend it to be inflammatory (as he has stated) but used a turn of phrase which was taken as such.

It's all in how it is received...if you choose to get incensed over a post, justified or not, and respond in kind, BAM, flame war.  If instead, you take the higher road and do what you SHOULD do, which is report the post and/or message a moderator about it and let us do our job...then problem solved, no flame war.

The main point is, critical opinions of the game, and flaming isn't a major problem if it's not reacted to irrationally or impulsively.

Again, for emphasis.  If you have issue with how someone is posting, tell a moderator, don't take it upon yourself to respond in kind.  That's how we like to run things here.

Also, reporting a post goes, I believe, to the community manager, who is an extraordinarily busy man and likely doesn't have time to go through everything.  Please report to moderators, it's faster.  You can tell which mods are most active here.