446 réponses à ce sujet

[Catamantaloedis]

Before the war between the Geth and Quarians, there used to be billions of Quarians. At the end of the war there were only a couple million left, probably smaller than the population of New York State. That means that if we assume that there were 2 billion quarians (which is probably a very, very low estimate) before the war, less than 1% of the population survived. 

Sorry, but that's has to be a deliberate attempt to wipe them all out. 
     
 I find it somewhat amusing when Legion said that they let the Quarians go because they didn't want to destroy them. He must have meant that they were bored of genocide and stuff.

 People do not fight themselves to extinction, if they are not forced to do so. That's a ridiculous concept and it sounds equally ridiculous when you repeat it to yourself. If the enemy is so vastly superior and has destroyed all of Quarian civilization, the remaining scraps of the population would cease fighting if its allowed to them. It's nonsensical to say that they wouldn't have sought peace if it was possible because they would no longer have the capacity to fight. If the Geth are a worthy enemy, which apparently they are. They would've destroyed or captured the quarian's fuel stations, factories, their military bases, their arms production, hospitals, food sources, government and just as importantly, with only 1% of them, of which a significant part must be children, and likely elderly, along with the mentally and physically disabled, their manpower. The Quarians would literally be UNABLE to fight back. In fact, it makes absolutely no sense that the Quarians even had a fleet left with which they could flee. Which also disproves the theory that the Quarians wanted to fight to the very last man, woman, and child. Because they didn't. They fled into exile for 300 years. 
     
Even the Krogan, the most savage and war-like of all the races in the galaxy surrendered, and even they must have been much more populous than the quarians were after their war. Even in the current time, the Krogan number in the billions, while the quarians are left with mere millions.
Yet it seems like most people, and even the game itself, try to present the Geth as the "good guys".
Phew. Done venting.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 01 mai 2012 - 10:45 .

[Raiil]

The Quarians fought until it became clear they could not win, and then they ran away, potentially leaving millions stranded.

No one is arguing that Geth killed Quarians. Some of us are just pointing out that the Quarians started it.

[Stygian1]

It is easy to argue the Quarians doggedly persisted during the war, even when it was apparent they would lose. The odds are the geth simply fought back as long the quarians were willing to attack.

It's also pretty obvious the Quarian's leaders have been more or less total idiots for the past three hundred years. But, that does not mean you should think all of the Quarian should be killed. If having inept governments meant your race should be killed, humanity would have went extinct long ago.

I prefer the Quarians to the Geth, though Tali provides a strong bias.

Modifié par Stygian1, 01 mai 2012 - 10:57 .

[justafan]

The Geth were the equivalent of John Rambo with nuclear launch codes and the mind of a toddler. They didn't know the ramifications of their actions and so fought the Quarians to near extinction, likely the difference between civilians and noncombatants and the military. It was base instinct.

Does that make them innocent? Not in the least. But are they horrible terminator-style monsters? No

[Catamantaloedis]

There's a difference between fighting a war, and retreating, and having 99% of your population exterminated in the war.

That percentage of casualties is absurd outside of genocide.

[CronoDragoon]

It's probably just a matter of inconsistency on BioWare's part. Not trying to diss them, it happens, but we're clearly shown that the geth had no interest in killing more quarians than necessary, so the fact that the quarians went from billions to millions seems like a contradiction. (is that a fact? I don't read the codex much so I haven't heard that) The most likely situation seems to be that the quarians did indeed fight themselves to (near) extinction for whatever reason.

[Aaleel]

When the Quarians finally gave up, ceased fighting and left the planet, the Geth let them go without pursuit. The Quarians continued fighting, even in a losing cause determined how many of them died, not the Geth.

[Catamantaloedis]

It is illogical and unbelievable to believe that any population would fight themselves to extinction. It makes no sense and is practically impossible.

It ignores the hundreds of millions of quarians who must have fled the planetwide war as refugees. It ignores the fact that they would have no resources or industrial capacity, since the geth would have it all.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 01 mai 2012 - 11:00 .

[NS Wizdum]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

There's a difference between fighting a war, and retreating, and having 99% of your population exterminated in the war.

That percentage of casualties is absurd outside of genocide.

I doubt they had enough ships to fly everyone away. The majority probably stayed and fought.

[MakeMineMako]

Stygian1 wrote...

It is easy to argue the Quarians doggedly persisted during the war, even when it was apparent they would lose. The odds are the geth simply fought back as long the quarians were willing to attack.

It's also pretty obvious the Quarian's leaders have been more or less total idiots for the past three hundred years. But, that does not mean you should think all of the Quarian should be killed. If having inept governments meant your race should be killed, humanity would have went extinct long ago.

I prefer the Quarians to the Geth, though Tali provides a strong bias.

Exactly.

As for the Geth, even Legion admits that the Consensus makes mistakes. And the Geth shouldn't be condemned for it, either.

I believe in second chances to those worthy of it. Both the Quarians and Geth were deserving of that second chance, so I worked toward peace and pulled it off.

[justafan]

Aaleel wrote...

When the Quarians in ships finally gave up, ceased fighting and left the planet, the Geth let them go without pursuit. The Quarians continued fighting, even in a losing cause determined how many of them died, not the Geth.

Fixed that for you.  We only know of one instance of the geth letting fleeing Quarians go, you do not know what happened to everyone who surrendered on the ground.  (Hint, there were no Quarians on Rannoch at the start of ME3)

[Catamantaloedis]

Do you not believe that the Quarians, even after losing, say 50% of their population to the Geth, which would have numbered in the billions, would not have attempted peace?

Even Japan, arguably the most fanatic nation in WWII, surrendered to occupation by the United States, after facing the insurmountable strength of the nuclear weapons and the combined armies of the Soviet Union and the United States. It lost at most 4% of its population in war.

By comparison, the Quarians lost 99% of their population, but they would not have tried to make peace?

Even Hitler, was less successful in his genocide of the Jews, with an astonishing 67% of them in Europe killed, than were the geth in destroying the Quarians.

[mauro2222]

The Quarians attacked a baby equipped with a machinegun... the little baby wants to survive, so the little baby needs to supress this threath. During the Morning War the Geth were just infants, they did not comprehend the consequences of killing a whole species, for them, the Quarians went from being the Creators to be the boogeyman.

[Catamantaloedis]

mauro2222 wrote...

The Quarians attacked a baby equipped with a machinegun... the little baby wants to survive, so the little baby needs to supress this threath. During the Morning War the Geth were just infants, they did not comprehend the consequences of killing a whole species, for them, the Quarians went from being the Creators to be the boogeyman.

All fine and well. 

But this does not change the fact that the Geth essentially exterminated the Quarians as a race. Which so many seem to blame on the Quarians themselves, even though it makes no logical sense.

[mauro2222]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Do you not believe that the Quarians, even after losing, say 50% of their population to the Geth, which would have numbered in the billions, would not have attempted peace?

*snip*

This isn't a valid comparison. The Quarians did not believe in peace with an AI, their fear pushed them to fight to the last one, Gerrel and Xen are a clear example of this. The geth were the ones wanting peace, and were destroyed, so the war continued.

Modifié par mauro2222, 01 mai 2012 - 11:09 .

[mauro2222]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The Quarians attacked a baby equipped with a machinegun... the little baby wants to survive, so the little baby needs to supress this threath. During the Morning War the Geth were just infants, they did not comprehend the consequences of killing a whole species, for them, the Quarians went from being the Creators to be the boogeyman.

All fine and well. 

But this does not change the fact that the Geth essentially exterminated the Quarians as a race. Which so many seem to blame on the Quarians themselves, even though it makes no logical sense.

The Geth are not less responsable than the Quarians. Legion says so, they feel sorry for such a loss. The Geth and the Quarians didn't knew where to stop. But as we can see in ME3, the Quarians are to ones with more fault on this matter, the Geth offered peace, they attacked again.

Modifié par mauro2222, 01 mai 2012 - 11:10 .

[Aaleel]

justafan wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

When the Quarians in ships finally gave up, ceased fighting and left the planet, the Geth let them go without pursuit. The Quarians continued fighting, even in a losing cause determined how many of them died, not the Geth.

Fixed that for you.  We only know of one instance of the geth letting fleeing Quarians go, you do not know what happened to everyone who surrendered on the ground.  (Hint, there were no Quarians on Rannoch at the start of ME3)

Probably the same thing that happened to noncombatant Geth, hell, that happened to Quarians trying to protect non combatant Geth.

Modifié par Aaleel, 01 mai 2012 - 11:10 .

[Catamantaloedis]

mauro2222 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Do you not believe that the Quarians, even after losing, say 50% of their population to the Geth, which would have numbered in the billions, would not have attempted peace?

*snip*

This isn't a valid comparison. The Quarians did not believe in peace with an AI, their fear pushed them to fight to the last one, Gerre and Xen are a clear example of this. The geth were the ones wanting peace, and were destroyed, so the war continued.

There's a difference between not wanting peace when you're civilization is at its peak strength and capable of fighting, and when your government, cities, masses of people, hospitals, industry, have all been decimated.

You think the Quarians would not have been begging for peace after the Geth bled their whole race? It's nonsensical. 

Imagine the Soviet Union invaded America and killed 999/1000 Americans. You think too many people would be holding onto "Better dead than Red", then? That's incredible..


The quarians went from a massive civilization, with interstellar colonies, to little more than a single big city.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 01 mai 2012 - 11:14 .

[TheLostGenius]

The problem is, despite their technical ingenuity the Quarians are both idiotic, unethical and ruthless. If you watch the memories in Legion's missions, you clearly see the "Quarian Gestapo" marching around executing innocent Geth and their Creators/Masters. It's actually very likely that their AI advanced when they deemed it necessary to protect their Creators from the "killer Quarians". Obviously a large part of the genocide wasn't just the geth in self defense but was actually Quarians murdering geth sympathizers, which may have been a lot of the population.

Too much technology and too much dumb = the Quarians.

[Catamantaloedis]

Sure the Quarians may have killed other Quarians, but again.

Are we supposed to believe that the Quarians would have killed each other in the BILLIONS?

[Quething]

Are we implying that the geth slaughtered children and noncombatants? Well, duh. Of course they did. They're machines. They don't have noncombatants. Every geth is capable of uploading to a combat platform, collaborating with a few fellow programs built for targeting or munitions or something, and shooting quarians in the face. Every geth is fully-functional and fully geth from the moment of creation. They're not born helpless, they don't grow up. What reason would they have to even understand that a civilian or child poses no threat to them?

The quarians attempted genocide, and the geth attempted genocide right back. Neither side is particularly covered in glory. I'm just willing to give the very marginal edge in blame to the dudes who started it every single time, and had far more reason to know what they were doing.

Modifié par Quething, 01 mai 2012 - 11:17 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

I figured that it was mostly due to their hasty retreat rather than the actual war. I would imagine they had massive casualties before they perfected their suit tech, then you have to consider how many they have lost over the years to pilgrimages, space battles and catastrophes related to their slapped-together ships.

I could be wrong, I haven't really read the quarian codex stuff.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 01 mai 2012 - 11:19 .

[mauro2222]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Do you not believe that the Quarians, even after losing, say 50% of their population to the Geth, which would have numbered in the billions, would not have attempted peace?

*snip*

This isn't a valid comparison. The Quarians did not believe in peace with an AI, their fear pushed them to fight to the last one, Gerre and Xen are a clear example of this. The geth were the ones wanting peace, and were destroyed, so the war continued.

There's a difference between not wanting peace when you're civilization is at its peak strength and capable of fighting, and when your government, cities, masses of people, hospitals, industry, have all been decimated.

You think the Quarians would not have been begging for peace after the Geth bled their whole race? It's nonsensical. 

Imagine the Soviet Union invaded America and killed 999/1000 Americans. You think too many people would be holding onto "Better dead than Red", then? That's incredible..

You still use humans as comparison, wich invalidates your argument.

The geth were infants being attacked, and the quarians were scared idiots. I'm sure that the 99% is just an exageration, otherwise the stupidity of the quarians has no way of being measured.

And no, instead of begging for peace they could have escaped much earlier. Instead of that they continued with their attacks to the point that the Geth simply considered them as "things to kill because are bad."

[Catamantaloedis]

Quething wrote...

Are we implying that the geth slaughtered children and noncombatants? Well, duh. Of course they did. They're machines. They don't have noncombatants. Every geth is capable of uploading to a combat platform, collaborating with a few fellow programs built for targeting or munitions or something, and shooting quarians in the face. Every geth is fully-functional and fully geth from the moment of creation. They're not born helpless, they don't grow up. What reason would they have to even understand that a civilian or child poses no threat to them?

The quarians attempted genocide, and the geth attempted genocide right back. Neither side is particularly covered in glory. I'm just willing to give the very marginal edge in blame to the dudes who started it every single time, and had far more reason to know what they were doing.

I'm not saying the Quarians are the good guys. Haven't said that once. 

I'm just addressing, what seems to be this misconception, that the Geth are some kind of rigtheous race. 

The facts of the matter is that the geth completely oblitterated the Quarians as a race.

[humes spork]

I love how everybody seems to forget the Morning War was a tripartate war:

Quarians, geth, and geth-sympathizing quarians.

The last party I mentioned was wiped out by somebody, and it certainly wasn't the geth.