446 réponses à ce sujet

[Jog0907]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

I already told you Shep is the messenger here, but the Conclave or whatever are too ignorant.

Shep is no messanger, he is a means to an end.  Legion joins you to stop the reapers and solve the Heretic problem, making peace with the Quarians was never his objective, nor a task he assigned to you.

So? He desires it, and you can go for it, but it doesn't work anyway.

I'm just saying, desiring peace and attempting to make peace are two different things.  If the Geth wanted to make peace with the Quarians, they should contact the Quarians, not a random human who's only contact with Quarian was for a trial.

and who may not even recruit such a quarian

[Erield]

JBPBRC wrote...

Where would they go?

Citadel space? War.

Terminus Systems? War.

Dark Space? Lulz.

Its easy to say, "Yeah the Geth could've relocated!"

Yeah. Geth were stuck in much the same position the Quarians were stuck in.

Less than 1% of the Galaxy is considered explored space.  That leaves a whole helluva lot of options for the Geth as far as I can read things.  It's easy to say "Citadel Space" and "Terminus Systems" and just laught about it, but really--the Geth invited a Reaper to a party on Rannoch instead of, say, going four systems over and building there.  

It's easy to say "Yeah the Geth could've relocated!" because damn it, they could have.  Saying that they're stuck where they are is like saying a a toad is stuck where it is because there's a creek keeping it from moving. 

[G Kevin]

Erield wrote...

Legion also lies to you at three times during the Rannoch missions, every single time because he was willing to put the survival of even a few Geth over any sign of peaceful cooperation with Shepard.  I like Legion, he was one of my favorite characters in ME2, but he is not working towards peace with the Quarians--he's interested in survival at any cost.

That doesn't make him wrong, but it sure as hell doesn't make him, or the Geth in ME3, right.

Legion lying concerned me greatly.

If synthetics take on the traits of organics while physically being superior to them, it will only end with some kind of conflict sooner or later.

[Toxic Waste]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...
OP is convinced that Quarians don't think like that, even though...
they clearly do.

I saw that in my first playthrough. It does show how unwilling the Quarians were/are to let the Geth Win.

Calinstel wrote...
Had the geth just left Rannoch and moved to another system, well off the beaten path, then they would have been left alone and the quarians could regain their world. Instead, the quarians had to fight for a planet the geth did not even need but refused to leave.

The Geth were created on Rannoch, they were "born" there. It was there home as much as it was the Quarians. Why should they move when they were able to keep the planet?

[TheGreenAlloy]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

I already told you Shep is the messenger here, but the Conclave or whatever are too ignorant.

Shep is no messanger, he is a means to an end.  Legion joins you to stop the reapers and solve the Heretic problem, making peace with the Quarians was never his objective, nor a task he assigned to you.

So? He desires it, and you can go for it, but it doesn't work anyway.

I'm just saying, desiring peace and attempting to make peace are two different things.  If the Geth wanted to make peace with the Quarians, they should contact the Quarians, not a random human who's only contact with Quarian was for a trial.

See the post below yours. The conclave wants blood. Wires. Whatever.

[JBPBRC]

Quarians also had the option of moving somewhere else. Its not the Geth's fault if they decided to spend 200+ years shaking their fist at them and loadin' up dem gunz and makin' moar dakka instead of *attempting* to settle somewhere else first, THEN go on a warpath.

Quarians were being dumb.

[justafan]

Jog0907 wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

I already told you Shep is the messenger here, but the Conclave or whatever are too ignorant.

Shep is no messanger, he is a means to an end.  Legion joins you to stop the reapers and solve the Heretic problem, making peace with the Quarians was never his objective, nor a task he assigned to you.

So? He desires it, and you can go for it, but it doesn't work anyway.

I'm just saying, desiring peace and attempting to make peace are two different things.  If the Geth wanted to make peace with the Quarians, they should contact the Quarians, not a random human who's only contact with Quarian was for a trial.

and who may not even recruit such a quarian

Not to mention, if recruited, said Quarian faces charges of Treason, and might very well be found guilty or die.

[justafan]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

I already told you Shep is the messenger here, but the Conclave or whatever are too ignorant.

Shep is no messanger, he is a means to an end.  Legion joins you to stop the reapers and solve the Heretic problem, making peace with the Quarians was never his objective, nor a task he assigned to you.

So? He desires it, and you can go for it, but it doesn't work anyway.

I'm just saying, desiring peace and attempting to make peace are two different things.  If the Geth wanted to make peace with the Quarians, they should contact the Quarians, not a random human who's only contact with Quarian was for a trial.

See the post below yours. The conclave wants blood. Wires. Whatever.

You can try to convince the admirals to attempt peace yes, but that is simply a personal plea and separate from Legion.  Shep has no evidence that the geth are peaceful and makes no such claim.  Only the Geth themselves can make such an offer and have it be valid.

[Jog0907]

JBPBRC wrote...

Quarians also had the option of moving somewhere else. Its not the Geth's fault if they decided to spend 200+ years shaking their fist at them and loadin' up dem gunz and makin' moar dakka instead of *attempting* to settle somewhere else first, THEN go on a warpath.

Quarians were being dumb.

quarians have more biological need of that planet in order to survive by comparison the geth mention prefering space stations and not having a need for rannoch at all beyond potential resouces there

[justafan]

JBPBRC wrote...

Quarians also had the option of moving somewhere else. Its not the Geth's fault if they decided to spend 200+ years shaking their fist at them and loadin' up dem gunz and makin' moar dakka instead of *attempting* to settle somewhere else first, THEN go on a warpath.

Quarians were being dumb.

They did try to settle somewhere else, and the Turians sent a fleet to drive them off the world.

Also, Quarian biology requires very specific circumstances to make colonization viable, and very few planets have what they need.  The Geth have no such needs.

Modifié par justafan, 02 mai 2012 - 03:28 .

[Averdi]

justafan wrote...

Shep is no messanger, he is a means to an end.  Legion joins you to stop the reapers and solve the Heretic problem, making peace with the Quarians was never his objective, nor a task he assigned to you.

Which doesn't change the fact that the quarian admirals knew, or should have known, about orthodox geth attitutes as related by shepard and legion.  They may not, and should not, have simply taken those at face value, but they jumped to the other extreme in dismissing them completely and proceeding to reopen the war without attempting alternatives.

The attitudes of admirals gerral and xen make it pretty clear that, at least for some quarians, the war isn't about survival or even securing their homeworld - they're still stuck on beating and destroying/enslaving the geth.

[TheGreenAlloy]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

I already told you Shep is the messenger here, but the Conclave or whatever are too ignorant.

Shep is no messanger, he is a means to an end.  Legion joins you to stop the reapers and solve the Heretic problem, making peace with the Quarians was never his objective, nor a task he assigned to you.

So? He desires it, and you can go for it, but it doesn't work anyway.

I'm just saying, desiring peace and attempting to make peace are two different things.  If the Geth wanted to make peace with the Quarians, they should contact the Quarians, not a random human who's only contact with Quarian was for a trial.

See the post below yours. The conclave wants blood. Wires. Whatever.

You can try to convince the admirals to attempt peace yes, but that is simply a personal plea and separate from Legion.  Shep has no evidence that the geth are peaceful and makes no such claim.  Only the Geth themselves can make such an offer and have it be valid.

Okay then. Shepard brings his quarian-exterminating Geth to the Quarian admiralty, as they seem to believe. 

[G Kevin]

Averdi wrote...

justafan wrote...

Shep is no messanger, he is a means to an end.  Legion joins you to stop the reapers and solve the Heretic problem, making peace with the Quarians was never his objective, nor a task he assigned to you.

Which doesn't change the fact that the quarian admirals knew, or should have known, about orthodox geth attitutes as related by shepard and legion.  They may not, and should not, have simply taken those at face value, but they jumped to the other extreme in dismissing them completely and proceeding to reopen the war without attempting alternatives.

The attitudes of admirals gerral and xen make it pretty clear that, at least for some quarians, the war isn't about survival or even securing their homeworld - they're still stuck on beating and destroying/enslaving the geth.

No one disputes the admirals' short sightedness. That does not mean the Quarian people are just as guilty because a few people had power over them.

[justafan]

Averdi wrote...

justafan wrote...

Shep is no messanger, he is a means to an end.  Legion joins you to stop the reapers and solve the Heretic problem, making peace with the Quarians was never his objective, nor a task he assigned to you.

Which doesn't change the fact that the quarian admirals knew, or should have known, about orthodox geth attitutes as related by shepard and legion.  They may not, and should not, have simply taken those at face value, but they jumped to the other extreme in dismissing them completely and proceeding to reopen the war without attempting alternatives.

The attitudes of admirals gerral and xen make it pretty clear that, at least for some quarians, the war isn't about survival or even securing their homeworld - they're still stuck on beating and destroying/enslaving the geth.

How would they know? The only possible way is for Shep to bring Legion aboard the flotilla, and ME3 seems to retcon this exchange out of existence.  Otherwise, its the testimony of a terrorist and an accused Traitor against the evidence of 300 years without contact minus that one time geth tried to usher in the reaper invasion.

[humes spork]

G Kevin wrote...

Erield wrote...

Legion also lies to you at three times during the Rannoch missions, every single time because he was willing to put the survival of even a few Geth over any sign of peaceful cooperation with Shepard.  I like Legion, he was one of my favorite characters in ME2, but he is not working towards peace with the Quarians--he's interested in survival at any cost.

That doesn't make him wrong, but it sure as hell doesn't make him, or the Geth in ME3, right.

Legion lying concerned me greatly.

If synthetics take on the traits of organics while physically being superior to them, it will only end with some kind of conflict sooner or later.

I didn't interpret Legion lying as such. I think it was in the end so eager to demonstrate its -- and the geth's -- usefulness and goodwill it didn't understand omitting certain crucial facts may undermine the trust and goodwill it seeks to engender. It's new to the whole lying thing, after all.

[Erield]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Erield wrote...

Legion also lies to you at three times during the Rannoch missions, every single time because he was willing to put the survival of even a few Geth over any sign of peaceful cooperation with Shepard.  I like Legion, he was one of my favorite characters in ME2, but he is not working towards peace with the Quarians--he's interested in survival at any cost.

That doesn't make him wrong, but it sure as hell doesn't make him, or the Geth in ME3, right.

When does he lie?

I remember Shepard yelling at  him for lying, saying "This is the third time" or something to that effect.  I can only remember two specifics, though.

1) You weren't shutting down the Geth server to eliminate a Geth threat against the Quarians, you were shutting it down so that Legion could convince the Geth inside of it to join you.  He never even mentions this as a possibility, and builds the entire framework of the mission as "Stopping the Geth threat."  At the very least, a very big ****ing lie of  omission.

2) He lied about keeping the Reaper code upgrades.

[TheGreenAlloy]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Toxic Waste wrote...
The Geth were created on Rannoch, they were "born" there. It was there home as much as it was the Quarians. Why should they move when they were able to keep the planet?

Because they know the quarians (and organics in general) have a high attachment to a physical concept of "home" and would likely persist in wanting to reclaim it.  Legion meanwhile explains that the geth concept of "home" has nothing to do with physical location and everything to do with being surrounded by known fellows and where you choose to go together.

The geth staying in place seems to suggest more a matter of confusion on their part than a conscious decision to remain "at home."  And I don't think they are intellectually capable of malice so "we didn't know what the hell else to do" seems the most likely option.

Come to think of it, geth seem confused a lot. 

I'd be confused, too, if my parents tried killing me and I had to drive them out of the house and live in solitude until I was grown-up.

[Jog0907]

Averdi wrote...

justafan wrote...

Shep is no messanger, he is a means to an end.  Legion joins you to stop the reapers and solve the Heretic problem, making peace with the Quarians was never his objective, nor a task he assigned to you.

Which doesn't change the fact that the quarian admirals knew, or should have known, about orthodox geth attitutes as related by shepard and legion.  They may not, and should not, have simply taken those at face value, but they jumped to the other extreme in dismissing them completely and proceeding to reopen the war without attempting alternatives.

The attitudes of admirals gerral and xen make it pretty clear that, at least for some quarians, the war isn't about survival or even securing their homeworld - they're still stuck on beating and destroying/enslaving the geth.

Such a case only exists if tali's trial is done after meeting legion which may not even happen at all if given to cerberus.

The reason many quarians want to destory the geth is because they see it as the only way of safely securing their home to dismiss such desire as just petty revenge is not correct at all.

Modifié par Jog0907, 02 mai 2012 - 03:33 .

[Averdi]

Toxic Waste wrote...

The Geth were created on Rannoch, they were "born" there. It was there home as much as it was the Quarians. Why should they move when they were able to keep the planet?

Exactly.  People seem to foist upon the geth moral responsiblities that they wouldn't hold any other race to.  The geth get attacked during the Morning War, but it's somehow their responsiblity to smack their erstwhile exterminators with olive branches for 300 years or else war is their fault?

[TheGreenAlloy]

Erield wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Erield wrote...

Legion also lies to you at three times during the Rannoch missions, every single time because he was willing to put the survival of even a few Geth over any sign of peaceful cooperation with Shepard.  I like Legion, he was one of my favorite characters in ME2, but he is not working towards peace with the Quarians--he's interested in survival at any cost.

That doesn't make him wrong, but it sure as hell doesn't make him, or the Geth in ME3, right.

When does he lie?

I remember Shepard yelling at  him for lying, saying "This is the third time" or something to that effect.  I can only remember two specifics, though.

1) You weren't shutting down the Geth server to eliminate a Geth threat against the Quarians, you were shutting it down so that Legion could convince the Geth inside of it to join you.  He never even mentions this as a possibility, and builds the entire framework of the mission as "Stopping the Geth threat."  At the very least, a very big ****ing lie of  omission.

2) He lied about keeping the Reaper code upgrades.

I don't like it, but it's forgiveable. After all the injustice the Geth have been through, I'd say they'd prefer to not be too controversial.

[justafan]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Okay then. Shepard brings his quarian-exterminating Geth to the Quarian admiralty, as they seem to believe. 

I'm not sure about this, but I've heard that the Admirals dialogue towards Legion in ME3 does not change if you brought him to the Flotilla in 2, suggesting a retcon considering that such an event was pretty hard to get.

[G Kevin]

humes spork wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Erield wrote...

Legion also lies to you at three times during the Rannoch missions, every single time because he was willing to put the survival of even a few Geth over any sign of peaceful cooperation with Shepard.  I like Legion, he was one of my favorite characters in ME2, but he is not working towards peace with the Quarians--he's interested in survival at any cost.

That doesn't make him wrong, but it sure as hell doesn't make him, or the Geth in ME3, right.

Legion lying concerned me greatly.

If synthetics take on the traits of organics while physically being superior to them, it will only end with some kind of conflict sooner or later.

I didn't interpret Legion lying as such. I think it was in the end so eager to demonstrate its -- and the geth's -- usefulness and goodwill it didn't understand omitting certain crucial facts may undermine the trust and goodwill it seeks to engender. It's new to the whole lying thing, after all.

But the problem is, Legion can lie just like an organic.

[Erield]

Toxic Waste wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...
OP is convinced that Quarians don't think like that, even though...
they clearly do.

I saw that in my first playthrough. It does show how unwilling the Quarians were/are to let the Geth Win.

Calinstel wrote...
Had the geth just left Rannoch and moved to another system, well off the beaten path, then they would have been left alone and the quarians could regain their world. Instead, the quarians had to fight for a planet the geth did not even need but refused to leave.

The Geth were created on Rannoch, they were "born" there. It was there home as much as it was the Quarians. Why should they move when they were able to keep the planet?

Quarian evolution made them uniquely suited to the planet.  There's a reason why they require their space-suits or they die.  There's a reason why even after retaking the planet they don't just take their masks and suits off and call it a day.  Geth can live in the vacuum of space.  Why should they cling to a planet that has little value to them beyond the raw resources it can provide?  Sentient or not, alive or not, they are still machines; there is not evidence to suggest that they have some sort of emotional connection to the planet greater than continuing to fulfill their early programming.

In short, the Geth should leave because they shouldn't care about staying, and the Quarians need Rannoch to live.  This is, of course, assuming that the Geth are at all interestd in peace.

[G Kevin]

Averdi wrote...

Exactly.  People seem to foist upon the geth moral responsiblities that they wouldn't hold any other race to.  The geth get attacked during the Morning War, but it's somehow their responsiblity to smack their erstwhile exterminators with olive branches for 300 years or else war is their fault?

If the Geth were capable of stopping the war then through inaction they are responsible.