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[TheGreenAlloy]

Erield wrote...

Toxic Waste wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...
OP is convinced that Quarians don't think like that, even though...
they clearly do.

I saw that in my first playthrough. It does show how unwilling the Quarians were/are to let the Geth Win.

Calinstel wrote...
Had the geth just left Rannoch and moved to another system, well off the beaten path, then they would have been left alone and the quarians could regain their world. Instead, the quarians had to fight for a planet the geth did not even need but refused to leave.

The Geth were created on Rannoch, they were "born" there. It was there home as much as it was the Quarians. Why should they move when they were able to keep the planet?

Quarian evolution made them uniquely suited to the planet.  There's a reason why they require their space-suits or they die.  There's a reason why even after retaking the planet they don't just take their masks and suits off and call it a day.  Geth can live in the vacuum of space.  Why should they cling to a planet that has little value to them beyond the raw resources it can provide?  Sentient or not, alive or not, they are still machines; there is not evidence to suggest that they have some sort of emotional connection to the planet greater than continuing to fulfill their early programming.

In short, the Geth should leave because they shouldn't care about staying, and the Quarians need Rannoch to live.  This is, of course, assuming that the Geth are at all interestd in peace.

Come on, Legion obviously care about Shep's armor.

[TheGreenAlloy]

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Okay then. Shepard brings his quarian-exterminating Geth to the Quarian admiralty, as they seem to believe. 

I'm not sure about this, but I've heard that the Admirals dialogue towards Legion in ME3 does not change if you brought him to the Flotilla in 2, suggesting a retcon considering that such an event was pretty hard to get.

Great.

[Aylyese]

It was explained in the game.. When the Quarians fled, the Geth did not pursue. Thus it logially follows that they were NOT trying to wipe them out. Compare that to the Rachni Wars, where the Krogan did pursue until every last Rachni was dead.

Plus, Quarians were locking up their own for defending the Geth. There is no saying how many Quarians were killed by their own in that war - it is an un-addressed variable.

War is rarely as simple as one side is evil and the other isn't.

[humes spork]

Erield wrote...

1) You weren't shutting down the Geth server to eliminate a Geth threat against the Quarians, you were shutting it down so that Legion could convince the Geth inside of it to join you.  He never even mentions this as a possibility, and builds the entire framework of the mission as "Stopping the Geth threat."  At the very least, a very big ****ing lie of  omission.

2) He lied about keeping the Reaper code upgrades.

Well, Legion already knew what it was planning would get it in trouble with Shepard and run the risk of getting its plans scrubbed, which would undermine its attempts to demonstrate goodwill and usefulness. It's better to beg for foregiveness than ask for permission, as some would say.

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Woah, its like I'm watching the last thing on this subject play out all again.. the op even has the same profile pic... something tells me there is a trend here... >_>

Hi Ender!

I have a feeling this topic will be recycled over and over again. I don't know what's worse, bickering about the endings, or this?

We'd say this, no one ever comes to a conclusion that everyone can all agree on (closest was 'They both did bad things get over it') and almost everyone that takes part just comes away with higher blood pressure...

Lets hope this thread doesn't go on for as long as the last one.

[JBPBRC]

G Kevin wrote...

Averdi wrote...

Exactly.  People seem to foist upon the geth moral responsiblities that they wouldn't hold any other race to.  The geth get attacked during the Morning War, but it's somehow their responsiblity to smack their erstwhile exterminators with olive branches for 300 years or else war is their fault?

If the Geth were capable of stopping the war then through inaction they are responsible.

Except they weren't in a position. The Quarians always attacked the Geth. Always. Geth could've legitimately offered Rannoch on a golden plate encrusted with diamonds, emeralds, rubies and topped off with element zero, and the Quarians would've just attacked them.

[Averdi]

Jog0907 wrote...

Such a case only exists if tali's trial is done after meeting legion which may not even happen at all if given to cerberus.

No, it exists for certain if you met legion at all and Tali survives the ME2 suicide mission.  One could argue that if you met legion and anyone survived the suicide mission (even Joker), that the information would get back to the quarian admirals.

The reason many quarians want to destory the geth is because they see it as the only way of safely securing their home to dismiss such desire as just petty revenge is not correct at all.

For some, it is about petty revenge.  Gerral is clearly beyond survival, and Xen is equally clear about her desires to re-enslave the geth so as to bolster quarian galactic power.  She's a mini-Illusive Man.  The quarians still have a huge chip on their shoulder.

When the geth had the power to exterminate the quarians, they didn't.
When the quarians had the power to beat the geth (via Xen's tech), they jumped at the chance.

[justafan]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

justafan wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

Okay then. Shepard brings his quarian-exterminating Geth to the Quarian admiralty, as they seem to believe. 

I'm not sure about this, but I've heard that the Admirals dialogue towards Legion in ME3 does not change if you brought him to the Flotilla in 2, suggesting a retcon considering that such an event was pretty hard to get.

Great.

Ya, will have to confirm it if I ever get around to another ME2 playthrough.

[G Kevin]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...
Come on, Legion obviously care about Shep's armor.

He had no answer for it.

[G Kevin]

Ender Ghost wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Woah, its like I'm watching the last thing on this subject play out all again.. the op even has the same profile pic... something tells me there is a trend here... >_>

Hi Ender!

I have a feeling this topic will be recycled over and over again. I don't know what's worse, bickering about the endings, or this?

We'd say this, no one ever comes to a conclusion that everyone can all agree on (closest was 'They both did bad things get over it') and almost everyone that takes part just comes away with higher blood pressure...

Lets hope this thread doesn't go on for as long as the last one.

Yea, I'm not seeing any new points. Honestly, I blame the inconsistent writing and lack of evidence. It's fun way to pass time until someone comes off as a bit personal.

JBPBRC wrote...

Except they weren't in a position. The Quarians always attacked the Geth. Always. Geth could've legitimately offered Rannoch on a golden plate encrusted with diamonds, emeralds, rubies and topped off with element zero, and the Quarians would've just attacked them.

 

So would have the rest of the galaxy. It's not just the Quarians. The Geth killed all ships entering the veil, they were a threat to organics. No peace was offered by them. Essentially the Geth did not care about anyone but themselves.

Modifié par G Kevin, 02 mai 2012 - 03:45 .

[Erield]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

I don't like it, but it's forgiveable. After all the injustice the Geth have been through, I'd say they'd prefer to not be too controversial.

In my paragon playthrough, I agree with you 100%.  However, consider the fact that the Geth can and will lie, especially faced with possible extinction.  This casts doubt on everything that you see inside of the Geth collective, because it could all be a lie, or at the very least, shadings of the truth based on presentation.

I still consider everything presented to be the truth; however, there's the truth and then there's the full picture.  I do not believe that the Geth presented the full picture of the Morning War inside the Collective.  They had no reason to present themselves in a negative light, and every reason to make you sympathetic with them.

Modifié par Erield, 02 mai 2012 - 03:43 .

[humes spork]

G Kevin wrote...

If the Geth were capable of stopping the war then through inaction they are responsible.

That assumes at some point the quarians before (or after, if the ships that retreated abandoned their own people) the exile actually stopped fighting. Personally, I don't feel it's terribly outside the purview of reason, given how astoundingly inept quarians prove themselves at war, to suggest they tried to wage asymmetric warfare against the geth well after they'd lost their ability to actually wage war and got themselves killed off in the process.

[G Kevin]

Erield wrote...

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

I don't like it, but it's forgiveable. After all the injustice the Geth have been through, I'd say they'd prefer to not be too controversial.

In my paragon playthrough, I agree with you 100%.  However, consider the fact that the Geth can and will lie, especially faced with possible extinction.  This casts doubt on everything that you see inside of the Geth collective, because it could all be a lie, or at the very least, shadings of the truth based on presentation.

I still consider everything presented to be the truth; however, there's the truth and then there's the full picture.  I do not believe that the Geth presented the full picture of the Morning War inside the Collective.  They had no reason to present themselves in a negative light, and every reason to make you sympathetic with them.

I don't think so either. If the Geth can manipulate the Quarians to have sutis on Rannoch, then they could just as easily change what Shepard sees.

[Erield]

Aylyese wrote...

It was explained in the game.. When the Quarians fled, the Geth did not pursue. Thus it logially follows that they were NOT trying to wipe them out. Compare that to the Rachni Wars, where the Krogan did pursue until every last Rachni was dead.

Plus, Quarians were locking up their own for defending the Geth. There is no saying how many Quarians were killed by their own in that war - it is an un-addressed variable.

War is rarely as simple as one side is evil and the other isn't.

It's not as cut and dry as that.  It's explained in game that when the very last of the species of Quarians fled, the Geth did not pursue and kill them.  What about all the other times?  What about all the other colony worlds?  

It's also presented, in-game, that the only reason why they did not wipe them out at that time was because they were unable to predict the consequences of their action.  There's also the issue of, "Oops!  We weren't meaning to drive <species X> extinct, but we did anyway! LOL!"  Intentions are all well and good, but results of actions speak much louder.

[Averdi]

G Kevin wrote...

If the Geth were capable of stopping the war then through inaction they are responsible.

Why is their responsiblity greater than that of the quarians?  It isn't; it's less so because they didn't initiate hostilities to begin with.

Was it the Alliance's responsiblity to attempt peace after their retaliatory strike against the turains that had destroyed the humans attempting to activate Relay 314?  Was the subsequent invasion of Shanxi the Alliance's fault?  Of course not.  The geth are similarly not at fault for the lack of peace and/or the quarian attack.

[Toxic Waste]

Erield wrote...

Toxic Waste wrote...

The Geth were created on Rannoch, they were "born" there. It was there home as much as it was the Quarians. Why should they move when they were able to keep the planet?

Quarian evolution made them uniquely suited to the planet.  There's a reason why they require their space-suits or they die.  There's a reason why even after retaking the planet they don't just take their masks and suits off and call it a day.  Geth can live in the vacuum of space.  Why should they cling to a planet that has little value to them beyond the raw resources it can provide?  Sentient or not, alive or not, they are still machines; there is not evidence to suggest that they have some sort of emotional connection to the planet greater than continuing to fulfill their early programming.

In short, the Geth should leave because they shouldn't care about staying, and the Quarians need Rannoch to live.  This is, of course, assuming that the Geth are at all interestd in peace.

You are going by the human idea of what a sentiant machine thinks and how it feels, or how it does not feel. After 200 years no one knows much about the Geth, except that they are machines. Who is to say that they did not develope an attachment to the planet.

In short the Geth won the war. They kept what they fought for. Why give it back to those who just want to make you what you were...a servant.

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Woah, its like I'm watching the last thing on this subject play out all again.. the op even has the same profile pic... something tells me there is a trend here... >_>

Hi Ender!

I have a feeling this topic will be recycled over and over again. I don't know what's worse, bickering about the endings, or this?

We'd say this, no one ever comes to a conclusion that everyone can all agree on (closest was 'They both did bad things get over it') and almost everyone that takes part just comes away with higher blood pressure...

Lets hope this thread doesn't go on for as long as the last one.

Yea, I'm not seeing any new points. Honestly, I blame the inconsistent writing and lack of evidence. It's fun way to pass time until someone comes off as a bit personal.

Yeah... maybe they will have a DLC to clear this up... I can see how they tried to clear it up with the geth server mission but really they just caused me problems.

[Erield]

Toxic Waste wrote...


You are going by the human idea of what a sentiant machine thinks and how it feels, or how it does not feel. After 200 years no one knows much about the Geth, except that they are machines. Who is to say that they did not develope an attachment to the planet.

In short the Geth won the war. They kept what they fought for. Why give it back to those who just want to make you what you were...a servant.

You're right, I am going by the human idea of what a sentient machine thinks or how it feels.  It's all I've got to go on.  There was a great deal of story and dialogue developing the need and attachment the Quarians have for Rannoch; as I recall, there was none about the Geth attachment to it.  That's largely why it seems to me to be the no-brainer solution to have the Geth just pack up and move out.

Then there's the whole issue where, instead of moving out, they decided to willingly embrace the slavery of the Reapers for their entire race just to not be killed by the Quarians.  I've got a really hard time finding the chain of logic where "slavery" becomes a better option than "moving."  They knew what they were asking for; they had Legion.

Modifié par Erield, 02 mai 2012 - 03:53 .

[G Kevin]

Averdi wrote...

Why is their responsiblity greater than that of the quarians?  It isn't; it's less so because they didn't initiate hostilities to begin with.

Was it the Alliance's responsiblity to attempt peace after their retaliatory strike against the turains that had destroyed the humans attempting to activate Relay 314?  Was the subsequent invasion of Shanxi the Alliance's fault?  Of course not.  The geth are similarly not at fault for the lack of peace and/or the quarian attack.

But did the alliance have access to the extranet from where they had direct access to the council?

humes spork wrote...
That assumes at some point the quarians before (or after, if the ships that retreated abandoned their own people) the exile actually stopped fighting. Personally, I don't feel it's terribly outside the purview of reason, given how astoundingly inept quarians prove themselves at war, to suggest they tried to wage asymmetric warfare against the geth well after they'd lost their ability to actually wage war and got themselves killed off in the process.

 

Not going to lie but I cannot think this late at night. What I was reffering to was that after the morning war, the Geth had ways of making peace but they did not. They had opportunities but they squandered them and chose to isolate themselves.

[justafan]

Averdi wrote...


Why is their responsiblity greater than that of the quarians?  It isn't; it's less so because they didn't initiate hostilities to begin with.

Was it the Alliance's responsiblity to attempt peace after their retaliatory strike against the turains that had destroyed the humans attempting to activate Relay 314?  Was the subsequent invasion of Shanxi the Alliance's fault?  Of course not.  The geth are similarly not at fault for the lack of peace and/or the quarian attack.

It is their responsibility because they are the only ones with the power to make peace.  Any ship that enters the veil is shot down, so any attempt to make peace by the Quarians would be futile.  Not to mention, the Geth are seen as agressors considering the attack on the citadel.

The first contact war is an entirely separate instance.  Turians sought peace because they thought there might be a costly war.  It had nothing to do with who the agressor was, and everything to do with avoiding Rachni Wars 2.0

Modifié par justafan, 02 mai 2012 - 03:56 .

[G Kevin]

Ender Ghost wrote...

Yeah... maybe they will have a DLC to clear this up... I can see how they tried to clear it up with the geth server mission but really they just caused me problems.

Yeah, I didn't really see a balanced point of view from both Geth and Quarians. Instead, we had Geth tell their side of the story and then suddenly we had to decide if they are right. Seemed done on purpose for the sense of drama in the end.

Anyways, good night!. I have an exam to take 7:30 AM and it's 12:05 AM lol. Woops!

Modifié par G Kevin, 02 mai 2012 - 03:56 .

[Toxic Waste]

Erield wrote...

In short, the Geth should leave because they shouldn't care about staying, and the Quarians need Rannoch to live.  This is, of course, assuming that the Geth are at all interestd in peace.

Something else to think about. Say the Geth gave the planet back. The Quarians would have thier planet back, along with all the resources that planet has to offer. The Quarians would no longer need the suits of thiers. The Quarians would grow in numbers over the years. And they might also want revenge for what the Geth had done to them. From a certian point of view what the Geth did prevented a much larger war down the line.