446 réponses à ce sujet

[Mria]

i think its safe to say that the geth being helped by the quarians and having to fight them at same time it would be logical that the geth entered in a concensous (dk if its how it spells) and considered pushing the quarian out of the homeworld giving them the necessary time to evacuate the worlds leaving praticaly no one in the planet.

that only considering this hypotesis, i cant see any other way to understand the morning war and the quarian's exodus from their home and colony planets.

[justafan]

Toxic Waste wrote...

Erield wrote...

In short, the Geth should leave because they shouldn't care about staying, and the Quarians need Rannoch to live.  This is, of course, assuming that the Geth are at all interestd in peace.

Something else to think about. Say the Geth gave the planet back. The Quarians would have thier planet back, along with all the resources that planet has to offer. The Quarians would no longer need the suits of thiers. The Quarians would grow in numbers over the years. And they might also want revenge for what the Geth had done to them. From a certian point of view what the Geth did prevented a much larger war down the line.

Possible, but does the Rachni Queen ever express any desire to wipe out the Krogan?  The Krogan are pissed off at Turians and Salarians, but with Wrex and/or Eve alive, they put aside their differences when the Turians make up for the genophage by curing it.  If we expect war down the line and pre-empt it, we are no better than starchild.

[JBPBRC]

G Kevin wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Except they weren't in a position. The Quarians always attacked the Geth. Always. Geth could've legitimately offered Rannoch on a golden plate encrusted with diamonds, emeralds, rubies and topped off with element zero, and the Quarians would've just attacked them.

 

So would have the rest of the galaxy. It's not just the Quarians. The Geth killed all ships entering the veil, they were a threat to organics. No peace was offered by them. Essentially the Geth did not care about anyone but themselves.

Isolationism in and of itself isn't a bad thing. They were far from the only race to do it either. The Terminus Systems for instance, Citadel didn't want to mess with them either. To quote Clint Eastwood:

"GET OFF MY LAWN!"

Going into Speculation! mode here, but saying the Geth are "a threat to organics" for those organics invading their space without their consent is pretty...vague. Its like saying bears are threats to humans for invading their space and the bear always attacking for some ODD reason. I think it was pretty clear. Much like the Terminus Systems, the Geth respected the boundries of Council space, but pushed back when the Council/Whoever tried pushing in. You leave the bear alone, don't try to take its stuff, and don't try to invade its cave, in fact, don't go anywhere near the bear's stomping grounds--odds are the bear is gonna leave you alone.

Unless its a crime to defend one's territory. Those dirty, dirty Geth.

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Yeah... maybe they will have a DLC to clear this up... I can see how they tried to clear it up with the geth server mission but really they just caused me problems.

Yeah, I didn't really see a balanced point of view from both Geth and Quarians. Instead, we had Geth tell their side of the story and then suddenly we had to decide if they are right. Seemed done on purpose for the sense of drama in the end.

Anyways, good night!. I have an exam to take 7:30 AM and it's 12:05 AM lol. Woops!

Lol, night.

But yeah at points it did seem one sided... Anyways I'll watch this thread continue to repeat itself... but in hindsite, this debate goes in... cycles

[Warp92]

Why would Quarians be wrong? I don't understand I am pretty sure any alien race including us would have done the same thing .. This thread is should of ended a long time ago IMHO. If Turians,Asari,Salarians,Humans or Krogan had created true AI I am pretty sure hey would all be doing the samething the Quarians did... No hate for the Geth I love them but I am saying nobody is wrong everyone acted how most others would..

[Averdi]

G Kevin wrote...

But did the alliance have access to the extranet from where they had direct access to the council?

They didn't have acceess to the council, nor know about them, no.  But they knew enough about turians and where they were to send those fusion-armed probes into their space.  Physically contacting the turans wasn't an obstacle to seek peace, the will to do so was.  The humans, rightly, saw no reason why they, as the ones attacked without warning or contact, should bear the responsiblity for achieving peace; their priority was making sure those crazy bird-men didn't invade or otherwise kill more humans.

[justafan]

Ender Ghost wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Yeah... maybe they will have a DLC to clear this up... I can see how they tried to clear it up with the geth server mission but really they just caused me problems.

Yeah, I didn't really see a balanced point of view from both Geth and Quarians. Instead, we had Geth tell their side of the story and then suddenly we had to decide if they are right. Seemed done on purpose for the sense of drama in the end.

Anyways, good night!. I have an exam to take 7:30 AM and it's 12:05 AM lol. Woops!

Lol, night.

But yeah at points it did seem one sided... Anyways I'll watch this thread continue to repeat itself... but in hindsite, this debate goes in... cycles

It's just like the starchild said, but with threads!

[Toxic Waste]

justafan wrote...

Toxic Waste wrote...

Erield wrote...

In short, the Geth should leave because they shouldn't care about staying, and the Quarians need Rannoch to live.  This is, of course, assuming that the Geth are at all interestd in peace.

Something else to think about. Say the Geth gave the planet back. The Quarians would have thier planet back, along with all the resources that planet has to offer. The Quarians would no longer need the suits of thiers. The Quarians would grow in numbers over the years. And they might also want revenge for what the Geth had done to them. From a certian point of view what the Geth did prevented a much larger war down the line.

Possible, but does the Rachni Queen ever express any desire to wipe out the Krogan?  The Krogan are pissed off at Turians and Salarians, but with Wrex and/or Eve alive, they put aside their differences when the Turians make up for the genophage by curing it.  If we expect war down the line and pre-empt it, we are no better than starchild.

Play it through with Wreave, and where Eves dies. The actions Shep takes (at least the way I played it) are somewhat based on what might happen after the Reapers are defeated. Sheps actions were to prevent a war after the Reaper war.

[justafan]

Warp92 wrote...

Why would Quarians be wrong? I don't understand I am pretty sure any alien race including us would have done the same thing .. This thread is should of ended a long time ago IMHO. If Turians,Asari,Salarians,Humans or Krogan had created true AI I am pretty sure hey would all be doing the samething the Quarians did... No hate for the Geth I love them but I am saying nobody is wrong everyone acted how most others would..

This is a statement I can get behind!

[Erield]

Toxic Waste wrote...

Erield wrote...

In short, the Geth should leave because they shouldn't care about staying, and the Quarians need Rannoch to live.  This is, of course, assuming that the Geth are at all interestd in peace.

Something else to think about. Say the Geth gave the planet back. The Quarians would have thier planet back, along with all the resources that planet has to offer. The Quarians would no longer need the suits of thiers. The Quarians would grow in numbers over the years. And they might also want revenge for what the Geth had done to them. From a certian point of view what the Geth did prevented a much larger war down the line.

That's actually the point that I find it hard to predict what the Quarians would do.  I can think of a fairly strong argument about at least two admirals wanting to continue war with the Geth even if Rannoch were surrendered peacefully and without a fight.  I like to think that the Quarians who just wanted their homeworld back (Raan, Tali, Koris) would be able to stop those that want revenge/power (Xen and Gerrel.)

[justafan]

Toxic Waste wrote...

justafan wrote...

Toxic Waste wrote...

Erield wrote...

In short, the Geth should leave because they shouldn't care about staying, and the Quarians need Rannoch to live.  This is, of course, assuming that the Geth are at all interestd in peace.

Something else to think about. Say the Geth gave the planet back. The Quarians would have thier planet back, along with all the resources that planet has to offer. The Quarians would no longer need the suits of thiers. The Quarians would grow in numbers over the years. And they might also want revenge for what the Geth had done to them. From a certian point of view what the Geth did prevented a much larger war down the line.

Possible, but does the Rachni Queen ever express any desire to wipe out the Krogan?  The Krogan are pissed off at Turians and Salarians, but with Wrex and/or Eve alive, they put aside their differences when the Turians make up for the genophage by curing it.  If we expect war down the line and pre-empt it, we are no better than starchild.

Play it through with Wreave, and where Eves dies. The actions Shep takes (at least the way I played it) are somewhat based on what might happen after the Reapers are defeated. Sheps actions were to prevent a war after the Reaper war.

Ya, there is definitely a reason why I said Wrex and/ or Eve.  Wreav is definitely a little crazy, but he wants revenge, The Quarians just want a homeworld (I could see Xen wanting war, and possibly Gerrel too, but they would certainly not get Raan's vote this time and be put down).

[Slayer299]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Before the war between the Geth and Quarians, there used to be billions of Quarians. At the end of the war there were only a couple million left, probably smaller than the population of New York State. That means that if we assume that there were 2 billion quarians (which is probably a very, very low estimate) before the war, less than 1% of the population survived. 

Sorry, but that's has to be a deliberate attempt to wipe them all out. 
     
 I find it somewhat amusing when Legion said that they let the Quarians go because they didn't want to destroy them. He must have meant that they were bored of genocide and stuff.

 People do not fight themselves to extinction, if they are not forced to do so. That's a ridiculous concept and it sounds equally ridiculous when you repeat it to yourself. If the enemy is so vastly superior and has destroyed all of Quarian civilization, the remaining scraps of the population would cease fighting if its allowed to them. It's nonsensical to say that they wouldn't have sought peace if it was possible because they would no longer have the capacity to fight. If the Geth are a worthy enemy, which apparently they are. They would've destroyed or captured the quarian's fuel stations, factories, their military bases, their arms production, hospitals, food sources, government and just as importantly, with only 1% of them, of which a significant part must be children, and likely elderly, along with the mentally and physically disabled, their manpower. The Quarians would literally be UNABLE to fight back. In fact, it makes absolutely no sense that the Quarians even had a fleet left with which they could flee. Which also disproves the theory that the Quarians wanted to fight to the very last man, woman, and child. Because they didn't. They fled into exile for 300 years. 
     
Even the Krogan, the most savage and war-like of all the races in the galaxy surrendered, and even they must have been much more populous than the quarians were after their war. Even in the current time, the Krogan number in the billions, while the quarians are left with mere millions.
Yet it seems like most people, and even the game itself, try to present the Geth as the "good guys".
Phew. Done venting.

Of course they can say it, didn't you get Bioware clubbing you over the head during Rannoch about how 'innocent' the Geth were? <_<

[JBPBRC]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

 The revenge scenario also assumes a level of uniformity among the quarians that's probably not likely in a post exile society. The more people, the more opinions, and so on.

Oh but the Quarians are exactly like this. Mention the word Geth amongst Quarians and you get one of two reacions. Absolute horror or foaming-at-the-helmet RAGE. While realistically you would most likely be correct, the Quarians seem rather single-minded in their pursuit of Geth destruction, even before their exile.

[justafan]

JBPBRC wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

 The revenge scenario also assumes a level of uniformity among the quarians that's probably not likely in a post exile society. The more people, the more opinions, and so on.

Oh but the Quarians are exactly like this. Mention the word Geth amongst Quarians and you get one of two reacions. Absolute horror or foaming-at-the-helmet RAGE. While realistically you would most likely be correct, the Quarians seem rather single-minded in their pursuit of Geth destruction, even before their exile.

Considering peaceful Korris is representative of the Civilians (who make up most the fleet), and that the new Rannoch would likely be run by the civilians at least in the long run, I consider this unlikely.  You mostly get the "foaming-at-the-mouth stereotype from Gerrel and Xen, all the chatter on flotilla is about getting back the homeworld, not killing the geth.

[Averdi]

justafan wrote...

It is their responsibility because they are the only ones with the power to make peace.  Any ship that enters the veil is shot down, so any attempt to make peace by the Quarians would be futile.  Not to mention, the Geth are seen as agressors considering the attack on the citadel.

Nonsense.  The quarians knew the geth were on Rannoch and could have easily sent messages there without risk.  There's no evidence to suggest that they ever did.

It's true that the geth inhospitable neighbors who tolerate no trespassers, but pretty much so are the krogan.  That might make them unpleasant fellows, but doesn't make them responsible for the lack of peace.  If the quarians had tried and been rejected, then I'd agree with the point.

It's not the geth's fault that organics don't know or refuse to internalize how their society is structured, including its rogues.  Pretty much all orgainc gov'ts should know about the orthodox/heretic split via the ME2 Normandy crew.

The first contact war is an entirely separate instance.  Turians sought peace because they thought there might be a costly war.  It had nothing to do with who the agressor was, and everything to do with avoiding Rachni Wars 2.0

The turians didn't much seek peace at all, the council intervened and,
we can only assume, applied pressure to get the turians to stop.

My point is that people treat the moral responsiblities of races in somewhat similar circumstances differently depending on whether that race is the geth or, in this case, human.  No one would suggest that humans had a responsibility to press for peace after acheiving local supriority around Relay 314 simply because they 'won'.  This is largely because the humans were the ones attacked.  The geth also were attacked, and 'won', but somehow by virtue of that victory they're now responsible for peace, or it's lack.

[JBPBRC]

justafan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

 The revenge scenario also assumes a level of uniformity among the quarians that's probably not likely in a post exile society. The more people, the more opinions, and so on.

Oh but the Quarians are exactly like this. Mention the word Geth amongst Quarians and you get one of two reacions. Absolute horror or foaming-at-the-helmet RAGE. While realistically you would most likely be correct, the Quarians seem rather single-minded in their pursuit of Geth destruction, even before their exile.

Considering peaceful Korris is representative of the Civilians (who make up most the fleet), and that the new Rannoch would likely be run by the civilians at least in the long run, I consider this unlikely.  You mostly get the "foaming-at-the-mouth stereotype from Gerrel and Xen, all the chatter on flotilla is about getting back the homeworld, not killing the geth.

Yes, and the only way of getting back the homeworld is...conflict with the Geth. Korris is an exception yes, but the majority of Quarians clearly favor military action over negotiation since...well...they go into military action.

[JBPBRC]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

 The revenge scenario also assumes a level of uniformity among the quarians that's probably not likely in a post exile society. The more people, the more opinions, and so on.

Oh but the Quarians are exactly like this. Mention the word Geth amongst Quarians and you get one of two reacions. Absolute horror or foaming-at-the-helmet RAGE. While realistically you would most likely be correct, the Quarians seem rather single-minded in their pursuit of Geth destruction, even before their exile.

Images shown in the geth collective seems to suggest that some quarians died defending geth.  I don't think they are nearly so homogeneous in opinion.  Quarians on the flotilla have been living in extremely controlled circumstances under military rule for 300 years, their very survival as a species dependant on their solidarity.  I think it quite natural that they've undergone severe "narrowing" of opinion.  But planetside, with room to spread so to speak, I think the opinion would spread as well. 

Yes, those same Quarians were also beaten and imprisoned by their less-tolerant brothers and sisters. As I said in my earlier post, people like Korris were an exception to the rule, a very minor exception.

A vocal minority (ohsnap!) if you will.

[Averdi]

Warp92 wrote...

Why would Quarians be wrong? I don't understand I am pretty sure any alien race including us would have done the same thing .. This thread is should of ended a long time ago IMHO. If Turians,Asari,Salarians,Humans or Krogan had created true AI I am pretty sure hey would all be doing the samething the Quarians did... No hate for the Geth I love them but I am saying nobody is wrong everyone acted how most others would..

I agree to some extent, but I have a different take on the moral of the story - it's not that no one's wrong, it's that we all are.

Hindsight is useless in making policy at the time, but it is useful for learning and evolving.  The geth see their interaction with Shepard as a watershed even because it was the first time an organic attempted to coorperate with them, rather than responding aggressively due to fear.  In a nutshell, Shepard is a better organic, and he/she provided a lesson to the galaxy that such cooperation and cohabitation is possible.  But he/she can only lead them to the water, and the quarians decided not to drink.

So it might be hypcritical to condemn the Morning War quarians for their reaction, since many organics probably would have done the same thing, but that doesn't make them right or their actions ok.

[SovereignWillReturn]

300 years of CLUNKY starships, is bound to cause explosions, death, other such things. Don't forget Qurian attempted takebacks of their territroy after their exile.

[justafan]

Averdi wrote...

justafan wrote...

It is their responsibility because they are the only ones with the power to make peace.  Any ship that enters the veil is shot down, so any attempt to make peace by the Quarians would be futile.  Not to mention, the Geth are seen as agressors considering the attack on the citadel.

Nonsense.  The quarians knew the geth were on Rannoch and could have easily sent messages there without risk.  There's no evidence to suggest that they ever did.

It's true that the geth inhospitable neighbors who tolerate no trespassers, but pretty much so are the krogan.  That might make them unpleasant fellows, but doesn't make them responsible for the lack of peace.  If the quarians had tried and been rejected, then I'd agree with the point.

It's not the geth's fault that organics don't know or refuse to internalize how their society is structured, including its rogues.  Pretty much all orgainc gov'ts should know about the orthodox/heretic split via the ME2 Normandy crew.

The first contact war is an entirely separate instance.  Turians sought peace because they thought there might be a costly war.  It had nothing to do with who the agressor was, and everything to do with avoiding Rachni Wars 2.0

The turians didn't much seek peace at all, the council intervened and,
we can only assume, applied pressure to get the turians to stop.

My point is that people treat the moral responsiblities of races in somewhat similar circumstances differently depending on whether that race is the geth or, in this case, human.  No one would suggest that humans had a responsibility to press for peace after acheiving local supriority around Relay 314 simply because they 'won'.  This is largely because the humans were the ones attacked.  The geth also were attacked, and 'won', but somehow by virtue of that victory they're now responsible for peace, or it's lack.

I'm pretty sure the travel advisory for Haestrom's system says that only stealth ships and drones can safely travel without being shot down, so getting a message to Rannoch is impossible.  The geth didn't exactly give the Quarians their e-mail adress either.

As for the Normandy crew, the three pertenent characters to mending relations are Legion, Tali, and Shepard.  Legion leaves before contacting the Organic governments, Tali was just charged with treason, so her credibility is kinda shot, and Shepard is on trial for the genocide of Bahak system.  Not to mention all these interactions took place while they were employees of a terrorist organization.  Sadly, even if they try to convince everyone of peaceful geth, they have very little credibility.

As for Humans and Turians, I would hope the humans would try to mend relations if they somehow managed to kill 99% of the Turians.  As is, there is no comparable analogy unless the Rachni Queen comes back for round two against the Krogan.