446 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

moater boat wrote...

Some people can't think for themselves. The games beat you over the head with the ridiculous idea that the Geth were Innocent victims, when in reality they killed about 99.7% of the Quarians, chased them not only off Rannoch, but EVERY colony world they had. Then spent the next 300 years killing anyone that came close to them. To top things off, they don't even like the planets and would rather live in space.

And then there is the whole siding with the Reapers thing.

Basically the Geth are by no means innocent victims, they are a serious threat to all life.

And you're less bias than them how? BS statistic with no in-game source, insults to people you disagree with, and intentional dismissal of information provided to you in the games.

I don't really see how your position is stronger than their's.

[Erield]

Averdi wrote...

goose2989 wrote...

And yet the Geth thought it was warranted to execute the Quarian children and elderly in their "rebellion." No matter what you feel about the Geth and Quarians, that's what the Geth would have had to do to leave the Quarians with a population of 17 million.

This is just nonsense, logically.  There's nothing beyond vague deductive hand waving from the total quarian casualty number to suggest that the geth executed anyone, let alone civilians specifically.  Bad science....bad!

No.  This is not nonsense.  Listen to Legion's reason for why the Geth squadron is targeting the liveships; it's hardly solely because it has some big ass cannons on it.  Legion: "If the liveships are damaged, the creators will lose armaments.  Provisions.  People."  www.youtube.com/watch @ 16:30

If the Geth think of targets that way in ME3, it's highly likely that they would have thought the same in the Morning War as well.

[Averdi]

moater boat wrote...

Some people can't think for themselves. The games beat you over the head with the ridiculous idea that the Geth were Innocent victims, when in reality they killed about 99.7% of the Quarians, chased them not only off Rannoch, but EVERY colony world they had. Then spent the next 300 years killing anyone that came close to them. To top things off, they don't even like the planets and would rather live in space.

And then there is the whole siding with the Reapers thing.

Basically the Geth are by no means innocent victims, they are a serious threat to all life.

/sigh Haters gonna hate

Ultimately, the geth's great sin, beyond being synthetic, was their success.  By almost any objective yardstick, the krogon are a more aggressive and culpable race, but they were decimated by the genophage, and so attract sympathy.

My guess is that there would have been no hand wringing among organic races if the quarians had wiped out the geth, either in the Morning War or the new one, but rather just a sigh of relief.  For shame.

[Shadow Shep]

For me the I consider the situation from a simpler stand point. I look at the motivations of both.

Quarian = Eliminate all Geth before they become AI

Geth = Not die.

Quarians want to kill them, and they have just become aware, or afraid of the concept of being turned off so they retaliate.

I just can't jump to the conclusion that the Geth intended to completely wipe the Quarians off the map, because of the lack of evidence to suggest this. If in fact the Quarians did drop from billions in population, to a few million I would like to see the evidence showing that the Geth intentionally persued them to make this happen. I just don't feel like the game was presenting this. Also, is it possible that maybe the writers just screwed up on the numbers altogether?

This is just my thought on the whole thing, I know many people may disagree with it, and they have some interesting points they bring up as well. Just my .02

[Erield]

Averdi wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Some people can't think for themselves. The games beat you over the head with the ridiculous idea that the Geth were Innocent victims, when in reality they killed about 99.7% of the Quarians, chased them not only off Rannoch, but EVERY colony world they had. Then spent the next 300 years killing anyone that came close to them. To top things off, they don't even like the planets and would rather live in space.

And then there is the whole siding with the Reapers thing.

Basically the Geth are by no means innocent victims, they are a serious threat to all life.

/sigh Haters gonna hate

Ultimately, the geth's great sin, beyond being synthetic, was their success.  By almost any objective yardstick, the krogon are a more aggressive and culpable race, but they were decimated by the genophage, and so attract sympathy.

My guess is that there would have been no hand wringing among organic races if the quarians had wiped out the geth, either in the Morning War or the new one, but rather just a sigh of relief.  For shame.

I disagree that the Geth are a serious threat to all life.

The Krogan are a more aggressive race; they're also one that other races of the galaxy can actually, in large part, understand.  They share similar thought processes.  The Geth are truly alien, in a way that humans, asari, salarians, etc. are not.  This is why so many races of the galaxy would not shed any tears were they to be wiped out.

If the Geth had  been less successful at eliminating any ships that crossed the Perseus Veil, and made any sort of non-hostile engagement, perhaps organic races would not have quite the same feelings.

[Averdi]

Erield wrote...

No.  This is not nonsense.  Listen to Legion's reason for why the Geth squadron is targeting the liveships; it's hardly solely because it has some big ass cannons on it.  Legion: "If the liveships are damaged, the creators will lose armaments.  Provisions.  People."  www.youtube.com/watch @ 16:30

If the Geth think of targets that way in ME3, it's highly likely that they would have thought the same in the Morning War as well.

It is.  I'm not going to argue that the geth don't kill civilians, especially civilians connected to legitimate military targets.  The quarians have a penchant for making such connections.  I suspect that every organic race in ME3 would operate in the same way.  If you don't want your civilians targetted, don't proactively arm them and bring them to a war zone.  If that was how the quarians operated during the Morning War, then all it does is legitimize their responsibility for their own casualties in my mind.

Aside from the application to the geth of moral obligations that no one else is responsible to, this simply doesn't support a conclusion that the geth specifically murdered innocents.

Modifié par Averdi, 02 mai 2012 - 07:00 .

[ArtGerhardt]

It's up for debate whether the Geth were trying to dominate or survive, but either way, they wouldn't be any more evil than any other race in the game. Each race has its fair share of totalitarian/questionable ethics.

Human: Racism, xenophobia, cerberus, James Vega, plenty of other ****
Salarians: Using the krogans as cannon fodder, warped their society into a war driven mess, sterilized 99% of the female population, wanted to lie to the krogans again and fake the cure, being slimy bastards
Turians: Shooting first asking questions later, general war nerds, probably the most level heading of all races though
Volus: Greedy bastards.
rachni: Yeah
Quarians: Created a sentient AI race of beings but tried to enslave them/wipe them out, without even giving them a chance at peace

Geth? They were nearly wiped out by their own creator when they decided they didn't want to be slaves. Yeah, some of them went nuts and violent, but remember this is a race of sentient beings that are technologialy proficient but are very new at communicating with organics. At least some of them tried to coexist with organics, and by the end of ME3 most of them don't want to fight. I felt really bad choosing the destroy ending. They were just figuring out invidivuality and possibly emotions. Then i killed them all.

Not saying they didn't make mistakes or took things way overboard, but it's nothing worse than any organic race as done. Protheans were bigger ****s IMO.

[Averdi]

Erield wrote...

The Krogan are a more aggressive race; they're also one that other races of the galaxy can actually, in large part, understand.  They share similar thought processes.  The Geth are truly alien, in a way that humans, asari, salarians, etc. are not.

I can't speak for others, but my paragon Shepard felt greater connection to the geth's than the krogon's (pre-Eve) philosophy of forced evolution and creative destruction.  I suspect that races like the elcor would agree.

This is why so many races of the galaxy would not shed any tears were they to be wiped out.

As I said, for shame.

If the Geth had  been less successful at eliminating any ships that crossed the Perseus Veil, and made any sort of non-hostile engagement, perhaps organic races would not have quite the same feelings.

Perhaps.  I'll not argue that the geth couldn't have played this smarter, but being a violent isolationist makes one neither a baby killer nor worthy of extermination.  I'd hope that the ME societies would hold a similar view, but I doubt it.  Or they just hate and fear synthetics that much.

[GuardianAngel470]

ArtGerhardt wrote...

It's up for debate whether the Geth were trying to dominate or survive, but either way, they wouldn't be any more evil than any other race in the game. Each race has its fair share of totalitarian/questionable ethics.

Human: Racism, xenophobia, cerberus, James Vega, plenty of other ****
Salarians: Using the krogans as cannon fodder, warped their society into a war driven mess, sterilized 99% of the female population, wanted to lie to the krogans again and fake the cure, being slimy bastards
Turians: Shooting first asking questions later, general war nerds, probably the most level heading of all races though
Volus: Greedy bastards.
rachni: Yeah
Quarians: Created a sentient AI race of beings but tried to enslave them/wipe them out, without even giving them a chance at peace

Geth? They were nearly wiped out by their own creator when they decided they didn't want to be slaves. Yeah, some of them went nuts and violent, but remember this is a race of sentient beings that are technologialy proficient but are very new at communicating with organics. At least some of them tried to coexist with organics, and by the end of ME3 most of them don't want to fight. I felt really bad choosing the destroy ending. They were just figuring out invidivuality and possibly emotions. Then i killed them all.

Not saying they didn't make mistakes or took things way overboard, but it's nothing worse than any organic race as done. Protheans were bigger ****s IMO.

This is also an entirely relevant comment. Viewing the actions of the geth as somehow unique in deplorability is foolish. How did you feel about the fact that the Krogan literally drove the Rachni to extinction? It was necessary right? How is that situation different than the Quarian/Geth situation? It isn't.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, every discussion regarding the geth boils down to a fundamental question: Are the geth alive? Depending on how you respond to that question determines, ulitmately, how you view everything the Geth have done. 

[Apathy1989]

With such drastic population losses, there are only two was I see this has of happening:

1) The Geth in their mental infancy spared the Quarians who left in ships. However there were not enough ships for everyone. The Geth slaughtered every Quarian who stayed.

2) The Quarians and Quarian sympathizers had a civil war that included large scale nuclear weapon usage.


Of the two, the first seems far more likely. It makes the player far less sympathetic to the geth. Legion seems to be a great character, but the more I think about Quarian-Geth history, the more I come on the side of the Quarians. Their actions are all understandable, and they were slaughtered to the last.

[Apathy1989]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, every discussion regarding the geth boils down to a fundamental question: Are the geth alive? Depending on how you respond to that question determines, ulitmately, how you view everything the Geth have done. 

I think the Geth are almost in an unfair position. 

They can claim to have been too early in mental infancy to be held responsibility for their actions during the Morning War. But now they think of themselves as truely sentient and deserving of life. 

To be honest I still don't consider them to be alive. After the reaper upgrades sure, but in their current state they are little more than animals with networked intelligence.

[Bill Casey]

Shepard: Prime, did you kill these babies?

Geth Prime: ...I was eliminating quarian supply lines

Shepard: Prriiiiiiiime

Modifié par Bill Casey, 02 mai 2012 - 07:15 .

[Sisterofshane]

Apathy1989 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, every discussion regarding the geth boils down to a fundamental question: Are the geth alive? Depending on how you respond to that question determines, ulitmately, how you view everything the Geth have done. 

I think the Geth are almost in an unfair position. 

They can claim to have been too early in mental infancy to be held responsibility for their actions during the Morning War. But now they think of themselves as truely sentient and deserving of life. 

To be honest I still don't consider them to be alive. After the reaper upgrades sure, but in their current state they are little more than animals with networked intelligence.

I think you may be mistakenly thinking that because they were "new", that they necessarily meant that they were, for lack of a better term to interpret, too stupid to understand that they were unneccessarily slaughtering the Quarians.

But I liken the term to mean that they were just generally unexposed to the universe and how it operated.  They had all of the sentience that they have now, they just lacked the "discovery" phase that many advanced ciivilizations like the Quarians have had the benefit of having.

Compare it to the Ancient Greeks.  By today's perspective and standards, most ancient Greeks would seem pretty stupid.  They would have no way of defining much of what we know about our world as fact.  They were humans physiologically the same as we are today, but they haven't had the time that we have had to truly explore their world and learn about it.

[Eterna]

Valentia X wrote...

The Quarians fought until it became clear they could not win, and then they ran away, potentially leaving millions stranded.

No one is arguing that Geth killed Quarians. Some of us are just pointing out that the Quarians started it.

If your computer asked if it had a soul what would you do? 

I'd smash mine. 

[Averdi]

Eterna5 wrote...

If your computer asked if it had a soul what would you do? 

I'd smash mine. 

If ME is any guide, this isn't going to end well.

[Applepie_Svk]

You forget about few facts:

There was two sides of Quarians:
Deffenders of Geths - in fact they were slaugthered by soldiers when was allowed Martial Law a lot of Quarians die by hands of their own kind

Enemy of Geths - they don´t take any chances and were trying to anihilate every geth

In the start of morning war there was maybe bilions of geths already active because the Quarians though it was a good idea live in eden as was their own empire, and i agree with them they could instead of hard jobs focus on other aspetcs of their society, research etc etc:
- agroculture was maintained by geths 
- mining facilities was running by geths
- hardwork in factories was running by geths

But when their experiments with AI achieved point of no-return they was affraid of their creation, because they don´t know what could happen, they choose harsh decision which cost them their own planets. Geths were slaugthered by bilions even more, until they armed themself with weapons, than they start fight and push creators from their planets, they don´t choose to fight but they did it for their preservation and it is kind of behavior which show every organic society when they are afraid of extinction.

If Geths were realy so bloodthirsty as the Quarians prefered to talk, than they could 300 years ago start fight with whole galaxy but they choose to live in isolation, maybe one day they planned to contact organics but it was intercepted by arrival of Nasana.

[Applepie_Svk]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

ArtGerhardt wrote...

Geth? They were nearly wiped out by their own creator when they decided they didn't want to be slaves. Yeah, some of them went nuts and violent, but remember this is a race of sentient beings that are technologialy proficient but are very new at communicating with organics. At least some of them tried to coexist with organics, and by the end of ME3 most of them don't want to fight. I felt really bad choosing the destroy ending. They were just figuring out invidivuality and possibly emotions. Then i killed them all.

This is also an entirely relevant comment. Viewing the actions of the geth as somehow unique in deplorability is foolish. How did you feel about the fact that the Krogan literally drove the Rachni to extinction? It was necessary right? How is that situation different than the Quarian/Geth situation? It isn't.

From what we could see in archives, something in experiments give to geth kind of conciousness but they still wish to serve their creators. Geth were trying to live with creators but Quarians was so blind by their own fear than they choose to kill geths in bloodrage along with deffenders of Geths. This fact just certify parts of geths archives which contain Quarians sacrifice which were deffending Geths, because geths never choose to uprise agaisnt creators.

[Hussain747715]

Eterna5 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

The Quarians fought until it became clear they could not win, and then they ran away, potentially leaving millions stranded.

No one is arguing that Geth killed Quarians. Some of us are just pointing out that the Quarians started it.

If your computer asked if it had a soul what would you do? 

I'd smash mine. 

I would tell him/it that I don't know and will ask him why do you think that?

[Orumon]

mauro2222 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Do you not believe that the Quarians, even after losing, say 50% of their population to the Geth, which would have numbered in the billions, would not have attempted peace?

*snip*

This isn't a valid comparison. The Quarians did not believe in peace with an AI, their fear pushed them to fight to the last one, Gerrel and Xen are a clear example of this. The geth were the ones wanting peace, and were destroyed, so the war continued.

Gerrel maybe, although most of it has hardened into hatred. Xen, by contrast, would be a monster on par with Mengele if she stopped caring about whether or not she experimented on AI or organics.

[ArchDuck]

humes spork wrote...

I love how everybody seems to forget the Morning War was a tripartate war:

Quarians, geth, and geth-sympathizing quarians.

The last party I mentioned was wiped out by somebody, and it certainly wasn't the geth.

+1

[GuardianAngel470]

Apathy1989 wrote...

With such drastic population losses, there are only two was I see this has of happening:

1) The Geth in their mental infancy spared the Quarians who left in ships. However there were not enough ships for everyone. The Geth slaughtered every Quarian who stayed.

2) The Quarians and Quarian sympathizers had a civil war that included large scale nuclear weapon usage.


Of the two, the first seems far more likely. It makes the player far less sympathetic to the geth. Legion seems to be a great character, but the more I think about Quarian-Geth history, the more I come on the side of the Quarians. Their actions are all understandable, and they were slaughtered to the last.

Apathy1989 wrote...

I think the Geth are almost in an unfair position. 

They can claim to have been too early in mental infancy to be held responsibility for their actions during the Morning War. But now they think of themselves as truely sentient and deserving of life. 

To be honest I still don't consider them to be alive. After the reaper upgrades sure, but in their current state they are little more than animals with networked intelligence.

You've proven my point. 

[Wabajakka]

Quarians started it, Geth almost killed them all, then Geth let them flee. Later to be controlled by the Reapers, twice.

End of story. It's called sympathy, apparently Geth had some.

[Shaoken]

Oh this topic again;

Collatarel damage, the Quarian's time-honoured tactic of "Attack attack attack then attack some more" and the fact that this was a war that was spread out over several worlds; a ship falling on a planet and landing on a city could kill millions of Quarians, the possiblity that some Quarians were left stranded on their colony by the rest, with no ships to escape and no means to substain themselves, and the Quarian's weaker imune system making them least resiliant to surviving full-scale war with all of the disease it brings (breathing in a lot of dust is very bad for a human's health, the same amount would be even worse for a Quarian).

[richard_rider]

Meh, I like the Geth, and I cannot blame them for not wanting to get wiped out.

As for the Quarians, most of them just ****** me off, and I honestly don't feel bad for them.

I like Tali, and I made peace between the Quarians and the Geth, and I did it because I thought that both of their species could use a second chance. Hopefully they won't squander it.

Now, I also do think that if another war starts between the two, it will be the Quarians who start it...again.

[Jassu1979]

Long story short: It's a retcon.

In Mass Effect, the geth were basically introduced as cylons; genocidal robots committed to wiping out their creators and other "inferior" species. Hence the huge numbers of quarian casualties, which were established as canon.

From Mass Effect 2 onwards, however, they retroactively portrayed the geth as victims rather than perpetrators of a genocide, and turned the villains from the first game into a heretical faction that had broken ties with the geth consensus.

Do these two versions fit together? Well, it takes quite a hefty dose of suspension of disbelief, but as far as retcons go, it's tolerable.